Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to recommend that we continue consideration of Bill 2 and Committee Report 3-14(5), to try and conclude the consideration of the budget of the Department of Health and Social Services. Following that, I would like to suggest that we have a general discussion around Motion 1-14(5), without necessarily concluding that document, but whenever Members have made some comments about it and are ready to move on, that we then move on to resume consideration of Bill 2 and Committee Report 2-14(5) to also get into the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development budget.

Does the committee agree?

Okay. We will take a short break and come back in 10 minutes.

-- Break

Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With me I have Mark Cleveland, deputy minister of Health and Social Services, and Warren St. Germaine, director of financial management services. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, one of the concerns we have in a lot of the small communities is that we do not seem to receive the services we should be receiving, especially from the regional health centres and what not in our communities. I think that you have all the specialists, the mental health specialist, the alcohol and drug specialist...you have all of these positions filled at the regional health centres, but there seems to be a real lack of visits and what not to our communities.

It seems like a lot of times these people are spending time dealing with regional issues at the regional health centres but not providing the service to the communities.

I would like to ask the Minister, will he consider looking at the reallocation of those resources and those positions to communities that would want to take on those responsibilities, especially where they do have a large population base?

In the communities I represent, Fort McPherson is almost at a thousand people and Aklavik is at 800. I think the communities have made it clear to this government that they want to take on more programs and services and deliver those programs and services at the community level.

I would like to ask the Minister, what are you doing to ensure communities are able to carry out programs and services in their communities on behalf of the representatives in their communities?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if there is an interest by communities in a region to help with how programs are delivered in their community, then very clearly there is an interest by the Department of Health and Social Services and I am sure, in the case of Mr. Krutko's constituency, the Inuvik Regional Health and Social Services Board to discuss that and what the issues are.

As we talked previously over the last few days, in the case of the impacted areas where there is major resource development, we are also committed to looking at issues that deal with that particular impact on a project-by-project basis with the impacted communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think this government has to show more leadership and more respect to communities, especially communities that have a history of providing programs and services. If they can provide federal programs and services through Brighter Futures, funding they might have been able to access through the Aboriginal Healing Foundation...these are national programs that communities are administering right now.

Yet, Mr. Chairman, when it comes to government programs, it seems like there is a reluctancy, either within the bureaucracy or even at the regional level, to allow communities to get the resources and get the infrastructure and people in place so that they can run these programs.

A good example is what we see happening with alcohol and drug programs. Even here just outside of Yellowknife you have a drug and alcohol facility, which I believe there is something like two individuals in there from Corrections. Yet the government is paying for the mortgage on that building. Yet in regions, the Inuvik region and other communities, such as the Delta House, which has been shut down, the Tl'oondih Healing Camp has been shut down outside of Fort McPherson because this government has, for some reason, made a decision that those dollars are now allocated to the regional level, but they do not seem to surface in the communities. If they do surface in the communities, the amounts are so minute that you cannot really do anything with them.

I would like to ask the Minister if he can start redirecting those funds from headquarters directly into the communities and skip the regional level with regard to regional health boards, so that we do not have to have the mosaic of people in the regional centre and no one in the communities. I would like to ask the Minister if he will consider looking at programs, proposals, contracts or what not with community organizations that are willing to take on programs and services delivered by this government in the communities?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Department of Health and Social Services has roughly a $200 million budget and about $148 million of that goes to the various health boards. They, in turn with their representatives from the community or communities, following the standards, legislated requirements and mandated programs and standards of the department, administer the programs and oversee those budgets.

If there is a concern, as my colleague has mentioned, in terms of the communities he represents, then I would just like to restate that I think it is very important that we sit down with the Inuvik Health and Social Services Board and the communities and look at the services that are required and issues that may be there, to see how best we can address those with the resources that are there, in addition to the funds that we are going to try to get appropriated to us as we move ahead with the impact of major resource development. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, another concern I have is the delivery of health care services in small communities such as Tsiigehtchic. For them to acquire programs and services, a lot of time you might have a part-time mental health position, but one thing you run into in the small communities is the lack of housing and lack of office space for these people to carry out their responsibilities or duties. As a government, I think we have to keep in mind that all communities are not the same. The challenges are different in small communities. You do not have available housing or office space.

I would like to ask the Minister if he is looking at those problems and concerns from communities so that we ensure there is a system in place where those communities that need support mechanisms, because of restrictions or restraints on the delivery of programs, are overcome by initiatives of this government, realizing that not all communities are the same? What are we doing for the smaller communities to ensure that health care services and programs are being carried out?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are a number of things that are being done and I will just highlight some of them. On the issue of housing, we are very aware that this is a shortfall in the small communities in terms of acquiring and maintaining professional people. We are working with the Minister of Housing to come up with ways that we can try to create an environment where housing is built that is not going to be so expensive that nobody can afford to stay in it.

I would also make the case that one of the benefits of the smaller communities being tied into larger health boards is that they get the benefit of some of the staffing capability that may be there because of the critical mass of nurses, social workers and other staff that may be available to backstop small communities if there is for some reason a vacancy. I know we have a way to go and the vacancy rates are still an issue. Recruitment and retention is still an issue, but we are working with all the boards and the department to try to improve that.

We are very aware that the small communities are especially impacted. When a nurse goes, it leaves a big hole, or if a social worker is not there, it leaves a big hole in the service delivery structure. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think what I am asking for here is to improve the capacity in communities, not to get back to the dependence here of having to depend on regions and other larger centres. That is the concern that I have. You might have all these people at headquarters and at the regional level, but they are not available to a lot of communities in regard to delivering programs and services. You might see a doctor in the community once a month if you are lucky, and if you are not on the waiting list, you wait until the next month.

Then you wonder why we are spending so much money on medical travel and other things. It is because of the lack of services being provided to our communities. I would like again to hopefully get the Minister to hear clearly that he did not misconstrue what I am saying, that we will continue to depend on regional centres. That is a concern of the communities, that we are not being served by regional centres.

Whenever they have to shut down the health centres, they do not shut down the wards in the Inuvik hospital. They shut down the health centres in our communities. What are you doing to ensure that our health centres and programs that are being delivered are being filled, and that we do not have to see health centres being closed at certain times of the year because of the lack of nurses or service people, and we are not able to fill it or else there is a reluctance to fill it and they say we will take care of you at the regional level? That is not working.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we are, as the health and social services system, making extensive efforts through recruitment and retention in trying to make sure that we fill the vacancies with doctors and nurses. We have come together with the board chairs and the department and myself to see if we can better coordinate those efforts. We have, for example, just come back in the last number of weeks from a recruiting trip to the Philippines that was initially initiated by the Inuvik region, and we have had some success there.

We are looking at both trying to recruit and we are also spending significant amounts of money and effort trying to train Northerners to become nurses. We have a fair number in training right now, some that will be graduating this year. We are going to make every effort to make sure they stay in the North and help fill these critical positions. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question under community services support, funding for community organizations and governments at the community level to promote mental health. I notice there is a significant drop in funding in this year's main estimates compared to what is proposed in the main estimates. Could we get an explanation of why that would be?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could I just ask the Member, I have not quite caught up to what page he is on.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, one of the items listed is the whole area of emergency shelter services. One of the concerns that we have in a lot of our communities is that when you have a crisis situation where there is violence in the family and people are having to leave their homes, there is nowhere in a lot of our small communities where these people can go where they know it is safe by way of a shelter of some sort. Where there are children at risk, where do these children go when there is a problem with alcohol in the home and the mother and child want to go somewhere they feel secure?

There was a letter sent to the Minister previously from the community of Tsiigehtchic looking at building an emergency shelter for that community. What are you doing to ensure we have some sort of emergency shelter services being provided in the smaller communities?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, while our system is not perfect, there is an effort with existing shelters, the social workers in the communities, the nurses in the communities to be able to try to assist where there is an issue of family violence. In many cases, there are emergency foster homes that are there. At times, there also will be arrangements made, if it is extreme enough, that there will be families or women and children moved to the nearest shelter. That is in addition to the use of the RCMP to deal with the perpetrator. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It might sound great to the Minister, but what happens when there is no shelter in the community? You might have them at the regional centres, here in Yellowknife and other places, but what happens to the small communities that do not have emergency shelters or that type of service being provided? Where do these people go? What are you doing to ensure there is a place for these people to go so they do not have to leave their communities?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, efforts are made in those communities that do not have family violence shelters to identify safe homes where they can be used in the event of the type of emergency mentioned by my colleague.

As well, the social workers often will try to ensure there are emergency foster homes, or if it is a smaller community or a community where the social worker is well known, there may be family members that can be called in to assist.

We try to look at every available means where there are no family violence shelters. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Does he have a list of where these emergency shelters are and how many of those shelters are being funded by this government? If there are not any being funded in communities, can you give us a list of the ones that are not presently in place and being funded, and the ones that are being funded and are in place?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are five shelters being funded in Inuvik, Yellowknife, Hay River, Fort Smith and Tuktoyaktuk. We also have, at the time of this briefing note, February 15th, 12 safe homes that had been identified. We do not keep a list of names. They are kept where they are of use at the regional level. It is a confidential kind of arrangement.

They are located at present in four communities, which I can share with the Member. I do not have the actual location of where the safe homes are, but they are in four communities other than where there are family violence shelters. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, that is my point. We should be providing this service as essential services in all communities. We should not have to go outside of the community, but see that there is a building or a home in the communities that we can use.

You look at the children who are being taken away in foster homes and most of the children are native people from aboriginal communities. I think it sends a bad message that this government knows it is a problem. By having these facilities in the communities you do not have to take the children away from their community, their family, their grandparents, their brothers and sisters.

I think we somehow have to put a human touch on this thing so that we do not forget about those communities that need this essential service like anything else. I think because of the lack of service being provided by this government, it adds that much more of a problem, only you do not have a social worker, you may not have a mental health worker, you may not have policing. I think the frustration in the communities that do not have these services is that they do feel they are being treated at a lower class of service than most of the regional centres that you mentioned.

There are 30-odd communities out there. Out of that, 27 of those communities are small communities. You said there were four in small communities, yet there are still 23 other communities out there. Why is it they do not have this service and what are we doing to improve that in all communities?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to point out as well, it came up in discussions over the last number of days, that there is a considerable investment being made in dealing with the needs in communities. Specifically, I am referring to the three-year plan based on the Child Welfare League review to put in ten social workers last year, ten social workers this year and another 11 if it is approved next year, into communities across the Northwest Territories.

The sole intent is to address some of the child welfare issues and the family issues that have been identified through the Child Welfare League review where there has not been enough work done with families and children at the front end to try and address this issue before they reach the stage where shelters are needed and family violence resources are required.

There is a significant investment being made there. I agree with the Member that in an ideal world, if we had unlimited funds, then without a doubt there would be services being put into communities across the North, but with the funds we have available at the present, the situation is as I have described it.

If the investment has been made with the social workers at the front end, by next year there will be over 30 new positions over three years. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I find it kind of odd coming from the Minister that now he is using funding as an excuse not to do anything. This government supposedly has a surplus and for us to continue to use that as an argument, the first place this government cut previously when they had a deficit situation was they did away with programs and services in communities. They did away with efforts that were made to try and improve that service and moved everything to the regions.

Now, when we are in a financial situation where it looks like we have a surplus and we are going around doing all these great initiatives, but when it comes to communities, we are being left out of the loop again.

I would like to ask the Minister, you can hire all the social workers in the world, but at the end of the day if these children are in a crisis situation or a mother has to get out of the home or leave the community, why should they have to do that if they are the ones who are the victims here?

We as a government can spend millions of dollars in institutionalizing people by spending $40 million on correctional facilities and young offenders facilities and youth facilities, but when it comes to people in our communities who need some place to go that is safe, this government has no money.

What are you doing? If you are not going to do anything, say you are not going to do anything, but I think it is an important enough issue that as a government, if we can afford to build $40 million jail facilities to house the people who cause a lot of these crimes against women and children, we should be in a position of putting money into protecting victims of these crimes.

Will you seriously look at this issue and put money and resources into ensuring that we have a system in place and people have the opportunity in all communities in the Northwest Territories to know there is a safe place in that community where they can go if they are victimized by violence?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to point out from my opening comments that in fact what we are seeing with these main estimates is a 9.4 percent increase over last year's budget. It is going to be likely that we will be coming forward as well as we proceed with the action plan for some supplementary appropriations.

We are also spending a significant amount of money on the new hospital in Inuvik, as well as ongoing upgrades to health stations and nursing stations. We are spending money. We are recognizing the need, but I do commit to the Member that the issue of trying to ensure that there is a safe place in every community for women and children to go is something that we will work with the communities with, and we will try to make sure that such a safe place is identified. As we move ahead with our funding requirements, this will be one of the issues that we are going to incorporate into our planning. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A couple of quick questions in the same area as Mr. Krutko's questions regarding the family violence shelters and safe homes. I am glad to see that there is an increase in the funding on this budget line. My first question is regarding family violence shelters. Are these shelters, and the Minister has indicated there are five in the Northwest Territories, are these shelters all funded by the government?

Yes, Mr. Chairman. We are the main funding source. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So I am assuming that now that we have new monies for additional funding in this area, that we can count on seeing some additional facilities open for family violence shelters in other communities?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The 9.4 percent increase I mentioned was to the overall departmental budget. The other significant investment I was referring to was the addition of the social worker positions, 10 last year, 10 this year and 11 next year, if they are approved. In terms of any increase to this particular activity, there has not been any. Thank you.

Thank you. I was actually heading down that road. My next question is regarding the comment the Minister just made about placing shelters in every community. What is his time line? How ambitious is this statement in terms of when we can expect to see a safe home and a family violence shelter in every community?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, what I was talking about with Mr. Krutko was the finding, trying to work with the communities to ensure that there is a safe place for women and children in the event of an emergency need. Would that be a safe home, would there be arrangements made with someone in the community? That would probably be the first step and the first choice. It is something that we will be raising as a normal matter of business, but I will be raising it with the board chairs when we gather. It is going to be something that we are going to initiate and give some extra effort to.

When will we have one in every community? I cannot say, but we will work with the social workers and the regional health boards and the people in the community to try to identify a safe place in the event of an emergency need for women and children. Thank you.

Let me ask a simpler question then and maybe the Minister will be able to answer this. When is the next time we are going to see a new shelter being funded, over and above the five that are already on-stream?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At present, there are no plans for any further shelters that I am aware of and based on the funding we have, it is fully subscribed to with the existing program that is now being delivered. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, the community of Fort Providence has applied on a number of occasions for funding to run a family violence shelter. They have staff in place. They have funding for a family violence counsellor. They have a facility that was turned over and transferred to them from the church. However, that does not seem to meet the criteria, whatever the criteria may be to access funding.

I wanted to know how serious the Minister is about funding new facilities. What does it take to get on-stream? Does it take a community crisis? How did Fort Smith get their funding? What criteria did they have to make to qualify? Why can't anybody else qualify?

The Minister of Health and Social Services.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am not aware of the proposal my colleague makes reference to. I know that this is an issue. I know that we are planning, along with the alcohol and drug issues, trying to deal with this within our mental health and family violence framework that we are working towards completing and that we are going to have an action plan hopefully attached that will identify how we are going to try to address the needs that are out there in terms of family violence. The particular proposal that my colleague referenced...very clearly, we are in a situation here, as I have said from the start, where the need far outstrips the resources we have available. We will be making the case through this framework of how we intend to proceed, if we can get the support and the funds to do that. Thank you.

Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can appreciate that the Minister is not fully aware of all of the submissions made in the past, so I wanted to ask, as we start to see incidents of violence increase in the communities, along with the resource development projects that have come on-stream, we can only expect it to grow. I would like to ask the Minister if he would consider again, or get his department to consider again, communities that already have identified resources and facilities. Would he consider looking at and reviewing the submissions that were submitted previously?

The Minister of Health and Social Services.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I would make that commitment within the family violence context, as well as within the context of impacted areas with major socio-economic resource development. So yes, I will make that commitment to the Member. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Roland.

The Minister of Health and Social Services.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, that particular piece of legislation falls within the purview of the Minister of Justice. However, when I met with the Social Programs Committee, I did make the commitment to write to the Minister to encourage and emphasize the critical nature of this particular piece of legislation. There is some work that has been done in terms of a survey of other jurisdictions, but it is something that the Minister of Justice has within his purview. Thank you.

Mr. Minister, you can refer the question to be answered by the Minister of Justice. Is that what you are suggesting?

Mr. Chairman, I was just trying to indicate where such legislation would be initiated. I do not know if it is appropriate for myself as a witness to refer a question to another Minister. Thank you.

Yes, it is allowed in the House if you would like. What is privy to another Minister, you can pass it to that Minister to answer that question. It is totally in your court. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will continue with the Member's questions and if he comes back to the particular issue, then I may in fact ask the Minister of Justice to respond. At this point, I will follow the lead of the Member. Thank you.

Mr. Roland.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I know this particular piece of legislation was identified by the Members as one that was a high priority, but from my recollection, not having my legislative list with me, the legislative list for the next 18 months is quite full. At this point, I will ask the Minister of Justice if he would be able to make a comment on the issue of family violence legislation.

I know I have written to him and he has indicated to me that it is on their list but it is some ways down, given the other legislative requirements.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The Minister of Justice, Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my apologies. I do not have the appropriate information at the moment so I cannot respond at this time.

Thank you, Mr. Allen. If you can get that information to the Member it would be helpful. Mr. Allen.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, if I can get the question, I will be back in a few minutes to bring it back to this discussion.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Roland.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member was out talking when I made the comment in the last day or so about the fact that we acknowledged and recognized that there was an impact where there is major resource development. We have started the process, albeit we are running late, to pull together a working committee in the government to bring resources and attention to bear on this particular issue.

We are going to be moving ahead as it is laid out in the action plan to work with affected communities on a project-by-project basis to try and identify this impact and make a case for funding that will be required to deal with those particular impacts and the types of projects that may be agreed to in terms of remediating the negative impacts of this kind of development. Thank you.

Mr. Roland.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we will use, to whatever extent possible, of course, existing resources. When we recognize the amount of development that we are talking about and the amount of impacted communities on oil and gas development and on diamond resource development, just to name two, then it is going to be a possible draw that will far exceed the capability of the existing budget.

We are going to have to work very carefully, look at whatever resources we can internally, but the supposition is that as we work with the communities and identify the assistance, it is going to require some other appropriation. Thank you.

Mr. Roland.

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I recollect those dark days referenced by my colleague very well. The intent here is to move with all possible haste so we have the committee at work, we have our working group struck, and we want to have plans in place by April so that we can move towards going out into the communities by early summer.

We recognize the pressure and we want to move with all haste, recognizing that we are somewhat slow off the mark, as my colleague pointed out, in terms of responding to this particular issue. Thank you.

Mr. Roland.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I note the Member's comments and we will be making every effort to be there with information and plans, not just information, but how we intend to be part of this solution. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. We are on page 6-25, community health programs. Can I have some order in the House, please? Budget summary, operations expense, total operations expense, $50,954,000.

Page 6-27, community health programs, grants and contributions, contributions. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Page 6-27 under community services support, which is funding for organizations and governments at the community level to promote mental health, could the Minister explain why the drop in funding in this area?

The Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just bear with me for one second. Mr. Chairman, we have obviously been stumped again. Our batting average is not good. What I will ask is Mr. St. Germaine to speak to the issue. I think he has identified it here.

Mr. St. Germaine.

Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. From that, I would assume then that we have been lapsing $140,000 in this program area consistently. I guess I would say, given the importance of the issue of mental health and the small amount of money that we put into the promotion of mental health, why would we not have looked for some way to ensure that one of the community organizations was accessing this money and putting it to good use throughout the Territories? I think the Minister is well aware of some of the problems that are faced in the North by people who could use some help from some of the NGOs and it is sometimes not available. This could help them to perhaps spread their wings rather than cutting the money back to find some way of putting it to good use.