This is page numbers 649 - 694 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 678

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Department of Finance is responsible for obtaining the financial resources to carry on the functions of government, for intergovernmental fiscal negotiation and arrangements, for regulating the insurance industry, and for controlling the sale of liquor in the Northwest Territories.

The Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development met with the Minister of Finance and his staff on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 to review the Department of Finance's 2002-2003 draft main estimates.

The committee noted a net decrease in the department's operations expenditures in the amount of $1,236,000. This net decrease is attributed to a $500,000 increase in forced growth reflecting the forecasted increase in insurance premiums for government assets; and a $1,736,000 reduction in other subsequent FMB approvals as the result of decreases in the government's short-term interest expenses. The Department of Finance did not have any capital expenditures.

Financial Reporting and Forecasting

Timely and accurate financial reporting and forecasting continue to be significant concerns for the standing committee. The financial health of the government is of primary importance for members of the public and the Legislative Assembly. Without effective reporting and forecasting, an accurate picture of the government's financial health is difficult.

For example, last year, the government received what they referred to as a "one-time" net corporate tax windfall of $16 million. This year, the government reported that it would receive another "one-time" net corporate tax windfall in the amount of $87 million from the same filer. This comes from the GNWT response to the Standing Committee Report on 2002-2005 Business Plans, Financial Management Board, January 11, 2002.

The committee is aware that corporate tax filers, like individual filers, are required by the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, or CCRA, to make at least monthly instalments on their projected tax payable. This tax payable is based on a corporation's or an individual's forecasted income for the upcoming tax year, or on their income from the past year, whichever is less. Non-payment or underpayment of taxes payable would incur expensive interest penalties. In light of this tax requirement, it is possible that the government would have been aware of any large corporate tax windfalls well in advance.

During the review of the department, the Minister remarked that if he had been informed that there was additional money on its way, he would alert the committee right away but that he did not expect anything for the next couple of months.

Committee members found it coincidental then that the government reported corporate tax windfalls on the first day in each of the Standing Committee's reviews of the Government's 2001-2004 and 2002-2005 business plans. The government, in both instances, had explained that they were notified either that morning or the day before by the CCRA. A few members noted that if the Minister had been informed at the last minute of any corporate or other tax revenue windfalls by the CCRA, why would he state that he did not expect anything for the next couple of months? Some members added that if the department was not notified in a timely manner, this may draw into question the condition of this government's working relationship with the federal government.

In short, good information is the foundation for good decisions. Accounting systems are an important source of this information. These issues are especially important, given this government's increasingly difficult financial circumstances. These concerns were conveyed to the government in the committee's report on the review of the 2001-2002 main estimates and the committee's response to the government on the review of the 2002-2005 business plans.

Resource Revenue Sharing

The committee suggested the establishment of a heritage fund similar to Alberta's. The Minister replied that it may be impractical at this time as most of the revenues from oil, gas, and diamonds go to the federal government. The Minister stated that hopefully after devolution, the NWT will see better revenues and for now, it may be more productive to invest in people and infrastructure.

The Minister apprised the committee that the NWT will never reach a resource revenue sharing agreement similar to Alberta's. Alberta keeps 100 percent of the revenues arising from resource extraction. The department further stated that the NWT would be lucky to keep 50 to 60 percent. Some provinces, like Nova Scotia, only get to keep 30 percent of their oil and gas revenues.

Committee members suggested that in order to improve on negotiations with the federal government, the NWT must develop a position, quantify potential revenues, study what has resulted in other jurisdictions, and develop options and alternatives.

Expansion of Banking Services to More Communities

Banking services are limited in most NWT communities. The committee would like to see more effort from the government to encourage banks to set up services such as automatic teller machines, or ATMs, in the communities. The establishment and the improvement of banking services would allow for bill payments and the disbursement of payroll and income support payments in the communities.

In response to the committee's concerns, the Minister replied that in the next call for proposals for banking services, the department will ensure banks develop a northern specific banking regime and improve their services in communities to include ATMs and other services.

Statistics

Committee members would like the GNWT to improve its statistics work to ensure federal statistics such as population surveys are accurate, as a significant component of our formula financing agreement is dependent upon the result. The department should undertake steps to increase the use of our own Bureau of Statistics and northern firms to ensure that statistics remain current and accurate.

The Minister replied the NWT Bureau of Statistics has only seven staff, but he agreed with the committee regarding the increased use of northern firms. The committee and the Minister were of the position that northern firms are more than capable of doing many of the surveys and this would also ensure a higher level of consistency in the compilation of statistics.

Liquor Act

Some committee members would like to see more of the income generated from liquor sales be directed towards alcohol and drug programs. The Minister replied that this income is transferred to the GNWT's Consolidated Revenue Fund, which in turn puts some of its money into social programs, including alcohol and drug programs.

The committee will undertake to examine the most current government review of the Liquor Act, review the current act and then provide its concerns and recommendations to the Minister. The Minister agreed that he would consider any input made by the committee.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes the Standing Committee on Governance and Economic Development's report on the draft main estimates of the Department of Finance. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 679

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Would the Minister care to bring in witnesses? Mr. Handley.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Yes, I would. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Does the committee agree?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, would you please escort the witnesses in? Mr. Minister, for the record, would you please introduce your witnesses?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, with me are Margaret Melhorn, deputy minister of Finance, and Bill Setchell, director of finance and administration for the Department of Finance. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 679

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. General comments? Mr. Bell.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a couple of questions about the Minister's opening remarks. As he laid out the goals of the department, I did have some questions that needed a little bit of clarification. I wanted to ask about the third goal, the departmental attempt to be more responsive to client needs. The suggestion that key supported strategies include, among others, improving awareness about the payroll tax. I am wondering if the Minister could speak to that and indicate whether or not he feels possibly that companies are not aware that they are supposed to be paying payroll tax, are not aware of how much the payroll tax is, these kinds of things.

I am wondering if he can speak to what we mean when we are talking about improving awareness with regard to the payroll tax.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Handley.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, a couple of things. First of all, there probably are some employers who come into the Northwest Territories for the first time to work as subcontractors, or for short periods of time on various projects and so on, in oil and gas and other areas where we have an increasing number who are here for the first time, who may not be aware of the requirements. We want to do more to ensure they know what their obligations are on payroll tax, as well as other areas. We would like to be more visible out there, either in person or through correspondence or through phone or any way to work with these people, rather than allowing them to go along and then finding them later on. We would sooner be more proactive on that one. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Bell.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maybe the Minister could give me his assessment of whether or not we have a good sense of if we are collecting all of the payroll tax that we are supposed to be collecting, and if we have any sort of information on a year-to-year basis that lets us know if we are not collecting it all, if we are in fact getting better? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Handley.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 14th, 2002

Page 680

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, I think we are collecting most of it. I cannot say we are collecting all of it. Certainly we have not become aware of any larger companies that are not paying the payroll tax. As I say, there are always the smaller companies that are here for brief periods of time that we may find out about. There is no evidence that we are missing a large number. I would like to believe we are doing better than we used to, I think just in getting the information out. We have improved that side of it a fair bit. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Bell.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you. I could be mistaken, but I think I remember last year, the Department of Finance put a couple of additional auditors on the payroll in order to audit the payroll tax and make sure we were in fact collecting it. I am wondering if the Minister can tell me if I am remembering correctly and if in fact that is making a difference.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 680

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Handley.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, we had one additional auditor put on staff last year. We do not have any sort of dollar amount to quantify the impact of this one additional position, but we have the capacity to do more audits. In total, 15 audits were performed. We have seen an increase in tobacco and petroleum products in payroll tax revenues by 13 percent overall from 1999-2000, so that could be partly from collecting better information. It might also be from increased spending.

I think that kind of signal probably tells us we are doing a little bit of a better job of collecting more of the payroll tax owed to us.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 680

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Bell.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you. When employers are negligent in remitting payroll tax, do we charge them interest?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Handley.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Mr. Chairman, there are provisions in the legislation for that. We are not aware of having charged interest recently.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Bell.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Okay, so we have provisions in the legislation that allow us to charge interest when people are negligent, late, et cetera. I mean, I know Revenue Canada has these kinds of provisions and is quick to use them. I would imagine that it is (a), lucrative for the federal government and (b), sends a pretty clear message to people who are late in remitting that the government is serious about doing it.

If we have the provision in our legislation, but in fact we do not really do it, I wonder what kind of a message we send to employers. I would tend to think that if somebody has to let some bills go and be negligent on something, this would be the one to be negligent on, because if you can remit eight months at a time, or let these things slide, then I really do not know how serious we seem to employers who are out there, especially some of these operations who come up to work for six months and may not be aware of the payroll tax and then leave again.

I would think that people would become much more aware if there were penalties for skipping remitting the payroll tax. In the past, I have made mention that I thought the payroll tax should probably be raised so that employers would take it seriously and we could generate a significant amount of revenue from some of these companies that come in and operate for short periods of time and then head back to the south, that are not really located in the North, or employees who fly up here to work and then leave again.

I would think with the recent census data coming out, showing that maybe we have assumed that all this economic activity has meant that there are a lot more people in the Northwest Territories, maybe it is not such a revelation that a lot of this activity might be fly-in/fly-out. I think it might be time for this Minister to reassess his options when it comes to the payroll tax and start to look at some of the things that have been run up the flagpole in the past but dismissed for various reasons.

I guess my point is that I am not convinced that we take our payroll tax seriously and therefore that anybody else does. I hope the Minister would be amenable to taking a look at our strategy here. I think it is important for us to figure out what we are trying to do. We should not just have a 1 percent payroll tax because we have had it and we have set up the administration. There should be an end goal here, something we are trying to achieve. Thank you.