This is page numbers 1397 - 1454 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was tlicho.

Topics

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1448

The Chair Leon Lafferty

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. I think the question was outside this bill. The Minister may want to answer, but it's up to him.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1448

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the North Slave Metis Alliance members are probably in a very tough situation here. This Tlicho land claims and self-government agreement is defining the rights of the Tlicho and they say they are not defining anybody else's rights. However, we need to provide some assistance to the North Slave Metis Alliance in pursuing their rights. In this case, it's the federal government who has that obligation to recognize them and start a process with them. This has not happened ever since they have been formed. My staff have been in contact, talking and looking at the possibilities. Yes, we will commit here that we want to work with them in the remaining life as Minister of Aboriginal affairs to start political discussions with the federal government who has that obligation. So, yes, we will provide whatever assistance we can to do that in the remaining life continuing as Minister of Aboriginal Affairs. Thank you.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1449

The Chair Leon Lafferty

General comments on the preamble. Mr. Delorey.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1449

Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I can relate to my colleague from the Deh Cho when he says he has to drive home tonight. I also am driving home after we are done here today at some point in time. I have a little bit more driving than he has to do.

I missed yesterday in the House. I hear it was a very exciting day but there was a tragedy that happened in Hay River that I had to attend. I did read Hansard from yesterday and I agree with Mr. McLeod that a lot of the statements that have been made are being repeated, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I do see that a lot of the comments that were made in comments yesterday were comments that I would have made as well, had I been here.

So I would like to make a few comments right now on this bill. First of all, Mr. Chairman, I know it's not my job to stop or to block or even to delay or slow down this Tlicho government, but it is quite apparent, Mr. Chairman, that apart from some of the concerns some of the Members have, there are also groups out there that do have some concerns about how this agreement will affect them and we do have a Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs, which includes all the groups and everyone in the Territories actually. It is incumbent upon the Minister and upon this government to make sure the views of all parties are addressed and to give them some comfort in this. When I hear comments like if we pass this bill in the House, that the whole thing is going to be thrown into court and it could take awhile in court if that happens. Then what have we done? That would be very unfortunate both for the Tlicho and for everyone, I guess. So we could end up doing quite the opposite of what we are trying to do here and that's try to get the process moving in a speedy way and make sure that there are no roadblocks. I don't know that that will happen, but from what I am hearing, there is a possibility of that and if that happens, that would be very unfortunate.

To me, Mr. Chairman, it all started with leadership. It started with this bill coming before us at a very late date. Our Premier and our Minister of Aboriginal Affairs convinced Cabinet to move this to the House knowing full well that we had very little time to deal with it. I have heard comments that we may have to find a different type of process to deal with this type of legislation and with land claims or self-government agreements. That's fine, Mr. Chairman, if we do find a new process and our government agrees to that, but for the time being and for what I believe is a process in our government, we don't have a different process right now. As a Member of this government, I think it's incumbent upon us to try to get as much information to our constituents as we possibly can. I know that I have heard comments before from Ministers on the other side that they had some serious concerns about what's included in this type of legislation, yet they are supporting it now so maybe they got more information than I was able to get or something has happened that they've changed their minds. That's okay. I know the leaders who have been involved and the negotiators will be taking full credit, if this bill does get through the House and does get third reading, for their part in doing that.

Mr. Chairman, I would just throw a word of caution that if it turns out that this piece of legislation is to the detriment of any group in the Northwest Territories outside of the Tlicho. I am not saying that it's going to be, but if it is, then I am hoping the leaders of our government and the negotiators and the leaders who have put it together will be prepared to take the blame for that. I feel a little bit sorry, Mr. Chairman, of the position our committee was put in. Our committee was put into a situation with very little time to deal with a bill of this magnitude. I do believe that it has a lot of magnitude. This is a large bill.

So I think as it goes to the public, there will be a lot of education yet and I know there will be a long implementation period and a lot of growing pains that are going to go along with this and I am not going to be the one to stand up and say that it's a bad piece of legislation.

Over the past few days, there has been lots of talks. There's been a lot of tactics used to get the support of everybody and I have even been assured by the grand chief, Joe Rabesca, that this Tlicho government is going to be great for Hay River. I intend to remind him of that if this goes through over the next while that he's made that comment. I am hoping that it is and I am hoping that it's good for not only Hay River, but for the Tlicho themselves and for the North as a whole. I look forward to how these 10 years of negotiations and what they've put together for self-government and lands claims is going to work for their people and I wish them all the success in the world. So when third reading does come up for this bill, Mr. Chairman, I am going to support the third reading of this bill.

I hope there is a good flow of communication into the future with the public and I would just like to say to all the Tlicho people here, I want to wish you all the best in your government and I hope it does all the things that you hope it will do. I guess if I could close with one comment, if this does go through, I hope you live happily ever after on Tlicho lands. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1449

The Chair Leon Lafferty

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. To the preamble, Mr. Krutko.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1449

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this is an occasion for us to celebrate a long, drawn out process. This started back in 1921, almost 80 years ago, since the first treaties were signed, but it's taken the Canadian public to realize that aboriginal rights have never been recognized in the Canadian Constitution until 1982. Still today there are people out there who don't agree that First Nations people have rights, but it's entrenched in the Canadian Constitution which affirms, in section 35, that these rights apply.

I was in Rae in 1988 when the Prime Minister of Canada, back then Brian Mulroney, signed the Dene-Metis agreement-in-principle. Then I had the opportunity of being there August 25th for the signing with the Prime Minister of Canada for the Tlicho agreement. It has been a long, drawn out process which has taken a lot of time and effort. In the process, I have seen a lot of our leaders come and go. We have lost a lot of good people in this process who are no longer with us and who have dedicated their lives to seeing the day when their children and their grandchildren will have something that was started over 80 years ago with the first treaty of Canada which, back then, was classified as a friendship treaty. Today we have a modern treaty which includes self-government agreements and a land claims agreement.

For me, that's a step of recognizing and affirming those rights that First Nations people have in the Constitution of Canada. I feel that for the Tlicho people, this will only make your lives better and give you the responsibility of maintaining your own decision-making process by way of what's in the Tlicho agreement and also the Tlicho government's act, which we will be dealing with again in the 15th Assembly.

I would like to congratulate the negotiations on both sides and especially the elders who have been here for the past couple of days. They have been waiting a long time to see this day come to be especially in the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories.

With that, I would like to make it clear that I fully support the Tlicho agreement and will continue to do so in the future.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

The Chair Leon Lafferty

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. To the preamble, Mr. Dent.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

As I said earlier, I would have preferred to see a longer public process for consideration of this bill. It really is a vehicle for information for the public. For me, it's always been a process issue. I think that my colleagues have indicated where some of us are repeating each other around the table, I guess I don't need to do that. I think most of my colleagues have said most of what needs to be said. Mr. Bell in particular outlined things pretty close to the way I see them.

I would agree that the North Slave Metis Alliance has legitimate concerns, but since the Government of the Northwest Territories is not a necessary part of the agreement, I am not sure we are the ones to deal with the issue. It is going to have to be an issue that the North Slave Metis Alliance are going to have to deal with with the federal government.

The one thing I feel very strongly about is I hope the government in the 15th Assembly will make sure that there is an effort made so that all parties to these agreements understand and respect each other's processes or else establish upfront a new convention for how this government is going to deal with them.

I would point out that a couple of years ago, the standing committee suggested that a different approach be taken to dealing with claims agreements, so there was more involvement during the negotiation processes, so that committees were more prepared for legislation when it comes before us. That was rejected by the government at that time.

So I hope the 15th Assembly will reconsider that and look for ways to make sure that everybody is comfortable with how legislation is moved along and how this level of government ratifies agreements.

There is one other concern I would like to address and that is the allegation that there was a secret deal to pass this bill made in committee. Mr. Chairman, that may have come about perhaps because of the way we reported the bill. How I reported the bill in opening comments in yesterday's Hansard on page 3197. I started out by saying the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight has been considering Bill 34. I said further on that we passed a motion to report it back to the House for consideration. I would just like to clarify that there is no set single path for how committee's deal with bills. At the standing committee, all that was discussed was process, whether or not we were going to try to have a one-night public hearing, whether or not we were going to take a break and go out and try to do a week's worth of public hearings. Some even proposed that we extend the life of the Assembly until January and that would give us lots of time to go out and do public hearings. That was the sort of discussion that went on committee, not whether or not to try to pass the bill. It was to try to determine the process. Being part of a democratic process, our issues are dealt with by way of motions, votes in committee. So it was accurate when I reported yesterday that the committee adopted a motion to report it back to the House for consideration. So there wasn't a consensus. It wasn't a unanimous vote, but the majority ruled. We had a majority who wanted to see it back in this House and you have to respect the rule of majority.

I personally wish we had had more time to deal with this bill. I respect the fact that the Tlicho invited us to the table, the Government of the Northwest Territories. I regret that perhaps I haven't had more time to ensure that my constituents are comfortable with what's in this bill. Based on what I have seen of it and my understanding of what has been happening over the years, I voted in favour of the bill at second reading. So I supported the principle of the bill and I will, too, be supporting the bill on third reading. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

---Applause

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Roland.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1450

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I won't be very long on this. I have taken a fair bit of time over the last couple of days and I have to thank my colleagues for allowing me to do what I see as my role as a representative for my constituents of Inuvik Boot Lake. As we heard the Minister say, this is legislation that will change the beginnings of a major change of the Government of the Northwest Territories and aboriginal governments in the Northwest Territories. It's a natural evolution to the way things have gone. My father right now is happy he has the right to vote. That's one of the things I guess I was looking at and question to ensure that as residents of the Northwest Territories, we ensure we are doing what's right for all people. I did say when we started off on this Committee of the Whole process, I told the Minister I had some specific questions and how he responded to my questions would either sway me to go for or against. I must thank the Minister and his staff for responding to my questions with clear responses and answers. By doing that and satisfying the specific concerns I had that I think my constituents would have, because as the Minister stated this will be a template that other self-government groups will use in the future, somewhat different maybe, but it is a template.

I do take my role here in this Assembly very seriously, Mr. Chairman, about the responsibility I have when I took the oath as a Member of this government. I know some Members were a little concerned that my questions were of other tactics, so I tell them right now that's not the case. I had some specific concerns. The Minister and his staff have answered them clear enough that I can tell the Minister at this time that I will be supporting third reading of this bill. I know I can go back to my constituents based on the questions I asked and the answers I got from the Minister that I think I can satisfy the concerns I had about this piece of legislation.

I would like to thank again those who did come to this Assembly because so many times when we look up in the gallery, we see empty seats. So we know those who have taken the time to come and visit us and see how this process works had something they were concerned about and wanted to see. Like Mr. Delorey, I would wish them the best. Hopefully as their government takes hold and they elect people to represent them in those positions of power in the new government, that they would have people who would be as diligent, I hope, as I think I am in representing my people, that they would represent their people in that way holding their government accountable and responsible to their people and the rules and laws they make. I would congratulate them on their work and effort and the Minister and his department's effort in taking this to where we are today. I congratulate you all and look forward to third reading. Thank you.

---Applause

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Nitah.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Chairman. I, too, will support third reading of this bill. I supported it throughout and my questions concerning the North Slave Metis and their opportunities to come to terms with the federal and territorial government with something similar to this satisfied my concern, the ability of the Deh Cho and Akaitcho to finalize their agreement with the federal and territorial governments in this area. It also satisfied my questions.

Mr. Chairman, this is truly an historic day. We are one more agreement realizing a new relationship between aboriginal and public governments in Canada. I look forward to working with the other aboriginal groups that are still negotiating, the Metis, the Akaitcho and the Deh Cho and finalizing their agreement, so we could create more certainty in the Northwest Territories.

Our economy, our political and socio-economic conditions are dependent upon those things. Mr. Chairman, I would like to congratulate the Tlicho people, their leaders for a job well done and look forward to the new partnership we have with them as governments. It's been a long day, Mr. Speaker, and we still have a ways to go, so I will keep my comments to that. Once again, I congratulate the Tlicho people on their new agreement. Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. Mr. Lafferty.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

October 10th, 2003

Page 1451

Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also want to speak on this and support it. Also I would like to tell my constituents who are up there, from the day this legislation came in front of the committee, there was support from my colleagues right from day one. The only problem they had was the process. They suggested that we go through the regular process as a government or a territory. That is one of the things that they needed to do. As I mentioned in my statement yesterday, this wasn't a normal process. I am glad that they, at the end of the day, agreed with us and we dealt with it in the House as a legislature. Sometimes we have to make hard decisions. We've made a lot of decisions in this House. We made one today earlier. We must have pushed some buttons, but still that's the way it works in this House. We don't always agree on what one another does, but we do get over it sometimes. We as legislators sit around this table, people see us and hear us and they know we are doing it for the benefit of people out there. Today, it is for the Tlicho.

The next Assembly, it might be for the Deh Cho and the Akaitcho. We might have to sit around and say what is the normal procedure? That's the day we are going to decide are we going to go through it the way we did with the Tlicho or are we going the long process? This is an agreement that was made by three parties, so it doesn't matter what we said or what we did, there are some pieces of the agreement that we couldn't have changed anyway. Maybe some of the legislation at the end of the dates and times of the effective dates, we would probably have changed those. On one hand, public consultation is a great thing. They did go through that. They did go through 12 years. You have to congratulate all the people who were part of it. We had Cabinet representatives for the last three or four assemblies that were part of it. It took that long to complete this agreement and they have to be congratulated. There are many departments involved. Those people have to be congratulated. The Dogrib negotiators have to be congratulated, as well as the chiefs who were out there. There were many chiefs. Some of the chiefs are not around who were part of it. Some of the elders who were involved in it are no longer around. So those people have to be thought about and congratulated. Their families should be congratulated. So I don't want to carry on and on.

I will just say that thanks to my colleagues for the support right from day one. Thank you.

---Applause

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Braden.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1451

Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, will try to avoid repeating myself and the remarks, the very well crafted and well said remarks of my colleagues that I will agree with. My position is clear on the difficulty I have with this bill. That is that the opportunity that the people of the Northwest Territories have come to expect and deserve, to be able to look and criticize and potentially amend our laws has been denied in this process. It has gone against some of the fundamental values that we've tried to adhere to in this Assembly, values like being inclusive and governing our affairs with some abeyance to the principles of consensus. These things are at the core of our values in the Assembly and admittedly and undeniably, we are denying people those values in this process.

Along with a number of my colleagues, I have tried to bring focus and significance to the responsibility we have in this institution to be consistent, to make sure that there are at least some stages in the way we govern that people can rely on. When we change our mind and change the direction and change the process by which we make these laws, I think we diminish our confidence, our trust and our credibility. You can't peel too many more layers off of our purpose for being here, Mr. Chairman. If we don't have the trust and the integrity, then we really don't have anything. I don't want to say where this layers the case, where we are putting it all on the line. It's not an emergency or a make or break degree, but we need to be very careful every time we say we can do something differently. Especially after the fact in this case, Mr. Speaker. We have taken some people by surprise and denied them an opportunity that they might have had earlier in the process.

In my objections, in my arguments, in my discussions with a lot of people, and my colleagues have said, we have been tremendously, vigorously lobbied on this one. I believe I have got a couple of things out on the table. One of them, in a discussion with some aboriginal leaders, with the Minister this afternoon, is an acknowledgment and an understanding, at least on my part, that because these laws - and there are going to be more of them - are created in a different process we are used to, then we need to look at our approval process as well. That is something that the next Assembly has to look at pretty early and look at very seriously. We are going to see the same kind of challenge again.

Mr. Chairman, I have also secured a confirmation from Chief Joe Rabesca that one of the first things I hope to do if I am returned as the Member for Great Slave is to invite Grand Chief Joe and his people into my constituency to meet face to face with my constituents and explore the consequences of this bill and what I know are the benefits and at least take up some of what I think has been denied to the people of the NWT. I have not asked Mr. Antoine for that same commitment. He will not, of course, be returning to this Assembly, but it is something that I want to engage in with the next Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and take that back to my constituents as something I hope I can be held accountable for, that I have tried to deliver on this fundamental process that we have, unfortunately and very regrettably, Mr. Chairman, been compelled to forego.

I am going then to give qualified support to the third reading of this bill, Mr. Chairman. If I have heard my colleagues correctly, it seems that that will be a unanimous decision from this Assembly, from what I have heard so far. I believe that voice on that side is going to be a progressive one and that the qualification that I attach to it will help us see our way through this very new and very bold new step we will be taking in the development of the new Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

---Applause

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1452

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the preamble.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1452

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1452

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

To the bill as a whole, as amended.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1452

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1452

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Does the committee agree that Bill 34 is ready for third reading as amended?

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1452

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1452

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Bill 34 is now ready for third reading, as amended.

---Applause

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1452

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

I would like to thank the Minister and his witnesses for appearing. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.

Committee Motion 144-14(6): To Amend Clause 13 Of Bill 34, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1452

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, I move we report progress.