Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Once again, I have a committee motion. I move that this committee recommend that the government extend the current three-year replacement cycle for desktop computers wherever possible. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
In the Legislative Assembly on March 11th, 2003. See this topic in context.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Some Hon. Members
Question.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
The Chair David Krutko
All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.
---Carried
Systems and communications, operations expense, total operations expense, $839,000.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Petroleum Products
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just one of the lines here at the top of the page says that operating expenses are recovered through the price structure to achieve a break-even operation. I was wondering if I could ask the Minister if that is the case? Does the petroleum products revolving fund actually break even?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, may I redirect the question to Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The intent of the petroleum products revolving fund is to break even after a year's worth of operations and, as evident by the sheet in front, we've been unable to achieve that objective. I might add that's why we have the stabilization fund which is to make up for any losses or surpluses of the fund on a year over year basis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The intent is to break even after a year's operation, but how often are prices moved in relation to what the purchase is? If the government purchases oil at one price, if the price is higher than what it was say two months ago, is the price that we sell the fuel at raised to reflect the new purchase price or do we maintain the same price for perhaps longer than a year at a time?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Every year after either the winter road resupply or the summer barge resupply, we take an accounting of what our costs are for those shipments and look at our cost versus the previous year. If it is higher, what we do is we advise the Financial Management Board of that and the Financial Management Board will then make a decision upon whether to raise prices or not. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Have prices been raised to match the increased cost over the last four years, Mr. Chairman?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 664
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, in the last four years, the price of petroleum products charged to communities has gone up 26 cents a litre across the board.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Charles Dent Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Even with that, our purchase price must have gone up more because looking at the budget books, it appears we are expected to have a $230 million deficit in the stabilization fund for this current year and we are projecting a $92 million deficit...Sorry, $92,000. It's $230,000 and $92,000 rather than millions. Excuse me, it's not quite as bad as it first sounded. I guess my question comes back to, if we are showing deficits here, why do we say we are trying to have a break-even operation? If the price of fuel in the smallest communities is so high that we need to subsidize someone, and I am assuming that's where we are delivering these products, then that should be part of the thing we look at through the budget process as well. I think Members expect, this being an essential service, that there may be grounds for a subsidy and I think it should be presented as that and not presented to us as a break even if it's not. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That's a good point the Member raises and we will take that under advisement for future years.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to follow up on Mr. Dent's line of questioning. The assumption is that we want to try to recover the cost of the product from the user, but the numbers are showing that we're not. Under what policy or mandate or legislation does the petroleum products fund collect money? What drives pricing policy? Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, they actually come into play under the Revolving Fund Act. The petroleum product revolving fund is mentioned in that act. With respect to pricing policy, the policy is dictated by the fact that we break even. When we are not able to break even or we make a profit, the stabilization fund is put in place that allows for those kinds of calculations. There is a limit on the fund of $5 million that we can't exceed, but within that we can have variations on a year-by-year basis. In fact, the variations have been deficits for the last number of years although, given the size of the overall program, they've been quite close to a break-even point.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Bill Braden Great Slave
The point that Mr. Rattray mentioned, that when the pricing can't break even then the stabilization fund kicks in, that's the point I am looking at. If the fund or if the pricing can't break even, what kind of problem or barrier or difficulty does the department have in making sure that it breaks even? Is there something that's lacking or is there a gap in our policy that says we can't break even? That's what I am trying to dig at here in this pricing policy.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, I am not completely sure I followed the Member's question, but what we do on an annual basis is we try to project what our expenses and our revenue will be for it and we try to match the two. There will be some variations on a year-by-year basis because it's not possible to predict accurately what will be the actual volume of fuel that we are going to be consuming. We are not able to predict what the cost of the fuel is going to be. We set our prices with the FMB's approval on the basis of the most recent resupply that we've undergone and our most recent projections of costs and revenues. At the end of the year, we may be a little bit above or a little bit below there and we've actually been fairly close over the last few years. Where we miss slightly, it becomes accrued debt in the stabilization fund. Then it becomes an issue of how we deal with that accrued debt. That's an issue that we deal with the Financial Management Board on.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate Mr. Rattray's answer to my rather fuzzy question. I will see if I can be a bit more precise. According to the information before us, Mr. Chairman, we are anticipating a closing balance after the coming fiscal year, a deficit of $4.5mllion. We have a limit of $5 million. What then are the options for restoring or balancing the fund? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, the options are limited. We have the option of recommending to FMBS an increase in petroleum products, which could see a reduction in the deficit over a year or a number of years or like we've undertaken is we recommended to FMBS that we write off the $4.5 million deficit and start new. One of the problems we are experiencing, and this probably was expected, we don't have the same economies of scale we had before division. That's playing a major part in our ability to break even. We also have to keep in mind that this is an essential service and we have to keep the product affordable in the communities, otherwise we may have a serious problem.
Right now, there is no doubt that, even though we may have the same priced product this year as we had last year, obviously that's not going to be the case if the price of petroleum products keeps increasing. So it will probably be reflected in the summer barge product and in the winter road product next year. The only way to address that would have been to increase the cost to the communities to break even.
There is another aspect of this. The $4.5 million is applicable to all the communities that were on the system at the time of division, for instance. Since then there are some communities that are off the system. Therefore, other communities would be paying for something that may have been looked at as the deficit applicable to a different community. That's one of the reasons why we recommended to FMBS that we just write off the $4.5 million because it's money spent. Nobody really owes us this money, it's just money spent. The only way you can say somebody owes you is if we try to make it apply to all our customers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 665
Bill Braden Great Slave
I guess we are getting into an area that is before committee and another bill, Mr. Chairman. There is, in fact, an item in the supplementary about writing this off and we should be taking that up at that time. What I wanted to do in this discussion is try to find out more about the policy approach that we have. It seems where we want to make sure petroleum products are still available, as the Minister says, it's an essential service and I don't want to see any community restricted in its ability to get a fuel product when it needs it. However, if there are going to be these kind of financial supports or backups to communities, it's something I would like to see better supported in policy and approach so we all have a sense of how this is managed and what we have to anticipate in it.
I understand the government already carries the cost of the tankage, the liability and the management of the infrastructure in communities. None of that cost is passed on to the consumer. We are only trying to collect the cost of the product. In a year, we are seeing over time we've amassed a deficit of $4.5 million over 15 communities. We just don't have much of a base for it. I am not going to carry on the discussion on this page anymore, Mr. Chairman, other than to anticipate the discussion we are going to have under the supp. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with the Member that we should have a policy to guide us. Right now, the policy that Public Works follows is, when we have a need for a price change, we inform FMBS which is the only practice we have been using up to now. FMBS decides whether we have a price increase or not. A policy would definitely give better transparency to the whole thing.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
The Chair David Krutko
At this time, I would like to ask the Member for Thebacha if he can remove his gum. We are not allowed to bring any food or anything into the House. We are only allowed to have water to drink, so can you remove your gum at this time? Mr. Nitah.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister if he could tell us in the areas of the petroleum product revolving fund, the communities that are currently using this service and which communities are getting into the red and which ones stay in the black so we can have an understanding of where the cost factors are. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we have that information. I will ask Mr. Aumond to read off the information.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I could read off the names of the communities by product, if the Member wishes. Would he like all products or was there one specifically he was looking for? We have six or seven different products. I could read them all if he wishes, but maybe he's only looking for a couple.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the deficit we are facing in this area, it deals with all products so let's just stick with that area for now.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can read them off or we could provide copies.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Mr. Chairman, just for the record, maybe he could read them off or just stick with diesel and gas. Those are the two most utilized gas products in the communities that I represent. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will do the P50 heating and the gasoline. This is a subsidy that just would reflect the operations of PPD. It wouldn't reflect any capital infrastructure.
In Lutselk'e, Mr. Chairman, for gasoline, we are providing a subsidy of 11.9 cents a litre and for P50 heating, there's a positive subsidy of 2.94 cents a litre. In Wha Ti, we have a positive subsidy of 1.78 cents a litre for gasoline and 14.56 cents a litre in heating fuel. In Rae Lakes, we have a subsidy of 2.6 cents a litre in gasoline and 10.72 cents a litre in heating fuel. In Snare Lakes, we have a positive subsidy of 2.32 cents a litre in gasoline and a subsidy of 17.66 cents a litre in heating fuel. Correction, Mr. Chairman, in Snare Lakes we have a subsidy of 15.64 cents a litre in gasoline. In Jean Marie River, we have a positive subsidy of 2.32 cents a litre in gasoline and a positive subsidy of 3.74 cents a litre in heating fuel. In Nahanni Butte, we have a subsidy of 5.04 cents a litre in gasoline and we have a positive subsidy of .86 cents a litre in heating fuel. In Trout Lake, we have a subsidy of 4.03 cents a litre in gasoline and a subsidy of 6.71 cents a litre in heating fuel. In Fort Good Hope, we have a subsidy of 13.65 cents a litre for gasoline and .94 cents a litre in heating fuel. In Tulita we have a subsidy of 6.53 cents a litre in gasoline and a positive subsidy of 10.22 cents a litre in heating fuel. In Deline, we have a 5.48 cents a litre subsidy in gasoline and a subsidy in heating fuel of 14.49 cents a litre. In Colville Lake, we have a subsidy in gasoline of 24.98 cents a litre and in heating fuel of 11.45 cents a litre. In Tsiigehtchic, we have a subsidy provided for gasoline of 18.37 cents a litre and a 10.66 cents a litre in heating fuel. In Sachs Harbour, we have a subsidy in gasoline of 26.49 cents a litre and 9.11 cents a litre in heating fuel. In Paulatuk, we have a subsidy in gasoline of 17.33 cents a litre and 10.65 cents a litre in heating fuel. In Holman, we have a subsidy for gasoline of 17.07 cents a litre and for heating fuel it's 5.01 cents a litre. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could get an explanation of the difference of a positive subsidy and a straight across subsidy.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 666
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A positive subsidy is the amount of money, the price over and above the total cost to deliver the product, so it would be like a profit.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
March 10th, 2003
Page 667
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, so in layman's terms that means that some communities are subsidizing other communities so the petroleum products division can provide subsidized delivery of petroleum products in the communities mentioned. Is that correct, Mr. Chairman? Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess that could be an assumption somebody could make but there is really only one community that doesn't have any product subsidized out of the 15. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Mr. Chairman, I'd ask which community but that is not important. I'm wondering, Mr. Chairman, if these numbers are consistent in the last few years. The reason I ask is that maybe it's time the government got out of the petroleum products division and addressed the need for essential services in another way. FMBS could work with these communities so that a business could be established there, recognizing the consistent nature of the subsidies over time and addressing those needs directly from the Financial Management Board perspective, eliminating the need for the petroleum products division entirely from the government. Has the government or the Minister ever considered doing something of that nature? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, we have over the years, on a number of occasions looked at the opportunities for privatization of the petroleum products division. We've also looked at the opportunities forthcoming with the Northwest Territories Power Corporation. None of these have proven to be viable options. From the analysis that has been done, all would anticipate some increase in the cost over and above what the petroleum products division incurs.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister or deputy minister ever considered my suggestion about getting rid of PPD, recognizing the numbers of subsidies that the government has had to provide? If we could get out of the cost of administration, the cost of delivering, the cost of purchasing, etcetera, etcetera, we would see some savings. We could just provide subsidies to set up organizations or private companies in each of these communities to deliver a few products and services, and just provide them with subsidies, recognizing that there is an extra cost and that we do recognize that this is an essential service, a service that could be delivered by an entrepreneur in the community without assistance from the government through subsidies, not through physically delivering the service in the community. Has that ever been considered by the government? Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, the earlier privatization studies considered the option of smaller firms undertaking to deliver the services in communities and arguing against that is the loss of any kind of economies of scale, in terms of doing the various tasks. As the Member realizes, somebody still has to go out and purchase the fuel. Somebody has to ensure that the quality is maintained. Somebody has to deliver it in the communities. All of those things still need to be done, so there will still be costs incurred by all of that. Added on top of those costs is the higher cost of doing it as a very, very small operation rather than as the larger operation that we are currently managing. So all of the analysis that we've done so far indicates that, yes, you could do it that way but it would be more expensive and the cost would either be carried over to the government if it wished to increase the level of subsidy it provided or would be carried over to the consumers who would be paying more at the pump or for fuel delivered to their homes.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I imagine that there will be a measured cost but by going down this road, we will consistently see an increase because the fuel prices will consistently go up. What I am saying is, we're not giving the communities an option. We're not giving the communities an opportunity for a business to be created in those communities. We are hanging onto this petroleum products division at a cost. In doing that, if we do decide to go down this road and we privatize the petroleum products division to each of the communities, all we have to do is recognize that a subsidy is required in those communities and, if we provide that subsidy through the Financial Management Board, it will eliminate the need for a petroleum products division. Public works could still provide the technical support as part of its role and responsibilities. What would be the cost savings, or the increased cost in the short term, when you eliminate PPD as a government office? Has there been a cost benefit analysis done on using those particular options? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there are perhaps two points I should bring out here. One is that the department's direction from FMBS and Cabinet is that we no longer consider privatization as an initiative. However this doesn't prevent private enterprise from coming into a community and establishing themselves and selling the products as they see fit. If that was to happen, for instance if a community was to set up itself and start selling products, then we would just simply get out of the business and eventually turn our inventory over to them including the tanks, the tank farms. We've done this in the past but we don't have direction anymore from Cabinet or FMBS to go forward with the initiative for privatization unless the initiative is taken by the private sector or the community to do it on their own and then we will just get out of the business. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 667
The Chair David Krutko
At this time, I would like to warn the Member for Thebacha again that you are not allowed to be chewing gum in the House, so you are warned for the second time. Member for Thebacha, are you challenging the Chair? You have been warned. Mr. Lafferty.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Leon Lafferty North Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so long as the Minister has answered the last question there I would like to ask him, if we privatize more communities, would that drive the cost of other communities' fuel prices up, and then pretty soon one day we wouldn't be able to handle the subsidies for the communities that are still under the petroleum products division?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, definitely it would because we will have fewer communities to spread a subsidy over. In this particular case, if the number of communities is reduced then it is obvious that the rest of the communities are going to have to pay for the subsidy to keep the revolving fund from going over its capacity. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Leon Lafferty North Slave
Thank you. So in other words the Minister is saying that it is not a very good idea to privatize. If we've gone that route already, then is there any way of going back so we can spread the subsidy over more communities and lower the costs? Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, we've been given direction not to privatize any more on a list of our own. However, if the private sector wants to move in on a community and set themselves up and eventually build the capacity to do the thing themselves...as a matter of fact we have the example of Wrigley that has recently done this. If they have the capacity, we would just simply consider this and turn our inventory over to them. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Leon Lafferty North Slave
Thank you. Can the Minister tell me how many communities have privatized in the last eight years?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe it's Wrigley, Fort McPherson and Tuktoyaktuk.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Leon Lafferty North Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Can the Minister give us the amount of the increase to each community because of the privatization? What's the cost? Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there is no increase due to that particular privatization. The only time you may see an increase would be that there would be fewer communities available to actually cut down on the revolving fund deficit amount. But there won't be any increase due to the privatization of any one particular community.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Leon Lafferty North Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question was, because of the three communities privatizing in the past, has there been an increase in the fuel costs in the other communities?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, only if we were to have all the communities involved in writing off this $4.5 million. What we're asking is that the $4.5 million be written off so that we start clean. Otherwise the number of communities that are left will be seen as taking on some of the cost of supplying petroleum products in the other communities that were in fact privatized. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to continue the line of questioning that I had going with the rapport I had going with the Minister and his staff. Mr. Chairman, the Minister has indicated a political position taken by this government that there's not going to be any more privatization unless an organization, or a community organization or an entrepreneur in a community starts a business alongside with what the government is providing so far. I'd like to ask the Minister if that happens -- and we know it happened in other communities -- would the government and the Minister consider the current subsidization of the delivery of those fuel products to any of the communities mentioned by Mr. Aumond, so that there is some kind of competitiveness from the entrepreneurs and the government does not have all the advantages at the beginning of any kind of competition there? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, we could raise that point with the Financial Management Board but, to date, no, we haven't considered providing a subsidy to communities that have a private sector company delivering the service.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, so I'm assuming that... Let's take Lutselk'e for an example. For a long time individuals and organizations within the community wanted to take on the responsibility of a private venture. If these organizations decide to go after this product for service delivery in a private business, the government then realizes all of a sudden we'll get out of this competition, you guys don't need any more subsidies. Is it only if we operate that you need a subsidy? Is that what the government is saying? That only when the GNWT is operating are subsidies required and, if it's a private organization, there are no subsidies required? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 668
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, the member's concern and suggestion is in fact being considered in the broader sense of the government's overall consideration of subsidization of different types of activities. For instance, there is a suggestion that at one point we could charge every community what it costs us to deliver the product. Then those people who need assistance would go either to Health and Social Services or Wildlife or whoever to obtain a subsidy from them, rather than us doing it this way. However, it has not gone any further than just the discussion stage at this time. If there is someone willing to set up and there is a subsidy involved, there's no doubt that the person would have to charge the delivered landed cost to break even, never mind make a profit. No doubt, it's going to be very expensive for the communities then. There would then be some form of request to the government that we subsidize.
One of the reasons we were considering something like this is because, in some communities, we started realizing that some of the industrial activities that were taking place in the range of the communities, we were in fact subsidizing them by allowing them to buy gas at our prices rather than bring it in themselves. So we did take that into consideration. But it hasn't gone anywhere right now. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'm not too worried about those discussions. They happen all the time within government. It sounds like a piecemeal and administrative nightmare to me, just in what the Minister is talking about. But currently, is it a practice of government that if they are in business in any community and there's another private entrepreneur that wants to start a business, that they'll get out and they'll take their subsidies with them. Is that what the Minister is saying?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
Steven Nitah Tu Nedhe
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if that's correct, then this government is discouraging entrepreneurship by using the fact that it does cost more to deliver certain services in certain geographical locations, and only if government is the one that's delivering that service will this government subsidize or recognize the need for subsidies in this area. What I'm trying to suggest is an opportunity for the government to get out of the delivery of this program and service by recognizing that there are people in these communities that could do the job just as well as they can, and that they should get the same kind of treatment that government gets when government delivers these products and services in the community.
All I'm saying is we have an opportunity here to save nearly $1 million in salaries alone in this division. With 11 people averaging $100,000 a salary, with benefits and all, factoring in the costs for renting office space, etcetera, etcetera, there are some savings that could be had here. Capacity could be developed in communities, only if government in this area wants to get out of business, and recognizes that there is a subsidy requirement. Who knows? Once you agree on a subsidy per year and the cost goes up, the individuals in these communities could raise their prices and they'd take the political heat, not the government. There's a possibility of that happening. If the fuel price goes down, they could drop the prices and get the benefits rather than government. I'm just suggesting a different way of delivering this program, a suggestion that might save this government a lot of money and a lot of headaches, and develop capacity in communities. That's just a suggestion, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I look at this as a whole new approach. You know, the department is open for a proposal of this nature and we would take it to FMBS for consideration. We can't make the decisions on our own; however, we could make recommendations as to whether there are benefits involved. This is the new approach to the whole subsidization program involved with petroleum products. So I'm prepared, if somebody can come forward with a proposal like that, to move it up. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my question also concerns the petroleum products division. Right now the last community that was privatized was Tuktoyaktuk. Now I've seen some correspondence indicating that they want to buy some of the assets, such as the tank farm that's in Tuktoyaktuk. I'd like to ask the Minister what is the selling price of that asset? Have we done an audit to see exactly what the cost of that asset is, or are we looking at the area of liabilities? Is there also a liability that's associated with selling off a tank farm, and what's the book value of that asset?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, the agreement we had with Gruben's Transport was that at a certain time after we were involved with privatization, they would then have the opportunity to purchase those tank farms that Public Works has. That was to come up next year. However, they approached us recently to purchase the tanks for a nominal fee and, in return, they would take responsibility for all the environmental liabilities related to that tank farm. We estimated, I believe it was in the $500,000 range of liabilities. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Mr. Chairman, right now the government has reviewed the assets of this government, and a tank farm is an asset. It has a value to it. There was a cost associated with constructing this asset. There's a cost associated with carrying that asset on our books. I'd like to ask the Minister again what is the appraised price of this tank farm? You said it's for a nominal fee of $500,000, so I'd like to know what is the actual price to replace such a tank farm and what's the value of that asset?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 669
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. PPD is right now actually getting a professional appraisal done of that facility and we're awaiting the report from the firm that is undertaking the appraisal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister mentioned that there was a nominal fee offered by Gruben's Transport. Could you give us the amount of that fee? What's the offer that's being made to take over that tank farm?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Very interesting, Mr. Chairman. Right now you have a tank farm sitting in Fort McPherson that they've been trying to negotiate with this government to try to privatize and try to negotiate with your department to take over that petroleum product. Also there was a question about the fuel product in your tank. It seems like we've gotten quite the runaround from your department. But it's amazing, in Tuktoyaktuk you're able to hand over the last privatization of petroleum products in the Northwest Territories which was in Tuktoyaktuk, and all of a sudden we find out you're willing to sell the tank farm for $1. I'd just like to know is there some sort of a practice that goes on here where you treat one community differently over another community? There's a tank farm sitting in Fort McPherson which is an asset of this government, which is also an environmental liability to this government to clean it up. So I'd like to ask the Minister, will you offer a similar arrangement to the community of Fort McPherson for $1, that if they take over the tank farm that you'll offer it to them for $1, no questions asked?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, the reason that Public Works and Services recommended to FMBS to accept the offer was they agreed to take on all the liability costs, the clean-up costs, which were estimated at $500,000. They agreed to take on all that and to save the government in the future from any future environment costs related to that tank farm. So it's not just for $1. It's a savings to the government of $500,000 minimum that we would have had to spend to meet the environmental clean-up that we're estimating for that particular tank farm.
In relation to whether we do it for another community; if the community wishes to consider that or a private firm wishes to consider that, they simply have to write us a request and identify how or what the advantage is to the government to do this. This is really what happened with Gruben's. They identified that they would save us approximately $500,000 in clean-up costs. I don't have the amortization costs of those tank farms at this time, but FMBS agreed that it was a reasonable offer and we've accepted it. So the door is open, Mr. Chairman, if some other private firm wants to do the same thing in Fort McPherson. But keep in mind that it's not just $1. You have to take on the responsibility and take on the cost of the environmental clean-up. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I believe in the Auditor General's report a couple of years ago there was the question about environmental liability and a recommendation that this government should do an assessment of all these environmental liabilities. One of the areas they were looking at is in municipal infrastructure, such as the sewage lagoons and tank farms. I would like to ask the Minister, since you mentioned that there was an environmental audit or review done of the Tuktoyaktuk tank farm, how many other tank farms have we completed an environmental audit on to know what the costs of these clean-ups are elsewhere in the Northwest Territories?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, just for the record, I'm not saying there was an environmental audit done for the Tuktoyaktuk tank farm. I'm saying that that's what they offered us in relation to what they estimate would be the cost of the environmental clean-up. We agreed with that, based on the information we had. I can ask Mr. Aumond what environmental assessments we've had done on which tank farms. I believe we have some information on that. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have undertaken environmental assessments on all our facilities. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Well I've asked this question in committee. I'm not trying to get the department to duck the question, but I believe that we have an obligation to do environmental audits on all our assets to see what the liability to this government is. If we, as a government, are simply going to try to get out of liability by handing these liabilities over to somebody for $1, I think there is a question about legal criteria under the FMB's policy on disposal of assets, that we are not allowed to dispose of them knowing that there is a long-term liability that may occur in the future. I would like to ask the Minister again, is that now the practice of government, that in order to get out of liabilities we simply slough them off to someone else for $1?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 670
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I said earlier, we've undertaken environmental assessments of all our facilities, and even a couple of our old ones. I believe we provided the cost for each of those communities for those tank farms to the committee.
With respect to Tuktoyaktuk, the clean-up itself is estimated to be at least $500,000 or $600,000. I think it's worth noting that once that clean-up happens, it's going to be incumbent upon whoever undertakes that clean-up to undertake a code upgrade to the facility which, in itself, is going to be a $1.5 million to $2 million capital investment required on top of the clean-up. So the total cost, whether it be to the GNWT or in this case to EGT in Tuktoyaktuk, if you look at those two together you're talking about a $2 million commitment, minimum, after taking possession of the tank farm. It wasn't our intent simply to enter into that type of an arrangement so we could transfer the liability. We want to ensure the liability will be taken care of, and part of the discussions with EGT will try to make sure that that's undertaken. It's not just the environmental liability on its own, it's also the associated capital to upgrade that's going to be required once that happens. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister, did he get a legal opinion from the Department of Justice with regard to the disposal of assets and the question of liabilities?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are working with the Department of Justice on this issue very closely. They are there to make sure that whatever arrangement that we enter into -- EGT in Tuktoyaktuk, if we are able to come to an arrangement -- that it's aboveboard and it's a legal and binding agreement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
So I assume by that answer, you don't have a legal opinion from the Department of Justice. I'd like to ask regarding the disposal of assets of this government, there's a disposal process that it has to follow, so I'd like to ask the Minister was that tank farm offered to any other private entrepreneur who may have been interested in buying that facility? Was there a public offer made for the disposal of assets?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, I believe I indicated, at the start of the agreement we had for privatization with Gruben's, there was an option for them to purchase those facilities after a certain time. We were just abiding by the agreement.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Petroleum products revolving fund. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Just looking at the salaries, there seems to be a major increase in the main estimates for 2002-2003 to the tune of just about $200,000. I'd like to ask the Minister has there been an increase in the number of people in this department since the last main estimates?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We haven't increased the PY complement in the division at all. The increase of some $94,000 from 2002 to 2003 is increases in the collective agreement and some salary dollars that we've had budgeted for some casual help, and its assistance to help us through summer barge resupplies.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
In regard to the cost of goods sold, it seems that there's been an increase in the amount of sales of fuel products. Is that because the communities that are no longer involved in selling petroleum products out of the communities, in which it's only the smaller communities where these sales are taking place? Could you explain why there's such a drastic decrease in goods sold?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The member is correct. The main reason for a decrease in the cost of goods sold is that we're selling less fuel due to servicing a couple fewer communities in comparison to the prior year, and we're also selling less fuel, probably due to a milder winter than what we've experienced the last couple years and the previous ones. Those are the two main reasons for the decrease in the cost of goods sold. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's a pretty drastic decrease with regards to your sales. It's almost $1 million. That's a major decrease, considering what your previous estimates were. I'd just like to ask again, do you have a breakdown or listing of where those sales are taking place? In which communities are you seeing an increase in sales and in which communities are you seeing a decrease in sales?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the member to clarify. Is he talking about cost of goods sold or sales?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
I'm talking about your sales. Have you seen an increase or decrease in sales, and in which communities have you seen an increase and in which communities have you seen a decrease in sales?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
Aumond
I don't have that information here with me, but generally, across the board, we are selling less fuel in all our communities, with the exception of maybe a couple like Wha Ti, for example. That jumps out as a community where we're actually selling more fuel. But generally across the board, we're selling less fuel in every community.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you. In earlier discussions, the Minister mentioned that we are subsidizing some businesses in the oil and gas and mining sectors because they are purchasing fuel and gas, et cetera, from a particular community where petroleum products are being distributed. So I'm trying to see if there's a correlation between his statement that we're subsidizing the oil and gas and mining industry where the petroleum products are being sold. Do we have any way of tracking that, to show that there has been an increase of development in a particular community?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 671
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Where we may end up subsidizing the oil and gas industry, if indeed we are, would be through local contractors. We have been approached by oil and gas players up and down the valley on a few occasions, and we've made arrangements where we have provided them with fuel at a cost which we incur no loss on that sale. We can provide information on that, and we can provide information of what the sales are in each community on each product. That's not a problem either. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
I just have another question regarding the sale of the different tank farms. As we know, there is fuel in the tank farm in Fort McPherson. I'd like to know, in regard to selling off the tank farm in Tuktoyaktuk, does that also include fuel products in the tank?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The fuel that was in the tanks in Tuktoyaktuk that the government had was sold to EGT back in 2000 when they took over providing those services in the community. EGT now uses that tank farm -- or they lease it from us -- and they buy their own fuel and put it in there. So the only thing we're talking about selling is the infrastructure and the land that the infrastructure sits on. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Let me get this clear. They purchased the fuel from you, or were they the agent to sell the fuel product that was in that tank which this government paid for? Were they the agent that delivered that fuel product, or did they buy the fuel outright for a set amount? What was the cost that they purchased that fuel for outright?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We buy the fuel and we sell it to EGT for what it costs us. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Was the fuel paid for in one lump sum, or was it paid for over a 12-month period? Was it paid through a monthly installment basically on sales, or was it paid for upfront because that's my understanding? So I'd like to ask, for the record, could you clarify that?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. EGT provides for the payment of that fuel in one lump sum payment. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
In regards to the tank farm in Fort McPherson, there are fuel products in there. Could you tell me exactly how much fuel products are still in that tank farm at the present time, and will those fuel products... Well, maybe you can just answer the first question. How much product is still in that fuel tank in Fort McPherson and exactly what's the value of that?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
Aumond
I don't have the exact figure to date, but it would be safe to say there's about 1.5 million litres worth of diesel in the tank for which we have come to an agreement with the local agent fuel provider in Fort McPherson. So in about a year from now, that fuel should have been consumed in the community as sold to the local distributor. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
My other question was what's the value of 1.5 million litres of fuel sitting in those fuel tanks?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I could have a few minutes. Mr. Chairman, it's worth about $880,000.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
We've had previous discussions with the Minister, we've had discussions with the community trying to negotiate some sort of workable solution on the privatization of that operation, and it seems like it hasn't really gone anywhere. I'd like to ask the Minister, knowing that the privatization is no longer there, but knowing that in your earlier comments you said what you try to do once the private sector has moved in, is that you move out and you try to dispose of your assets. I'd like to ask the Minister, is he still open to the idea of negotiating the privatization of that operation in Fort McPherson?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Aumond.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
Aumond
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my knowledge, PPD is not operating in Fort McPherson. There's a private firm there that has been distributing fuel for close to two years now. So, I mean, it's already happened. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Mr. Chairman, the Minister made a commitment to the community that he was going to negotiate. Now you're telling me that the offer is no longer there to negotiate. The Minister and I were at a meeting with the chief and people from the co-op to look at the privatization of that tank farm and the fuel products. I'd like to ask the Minister is that commitment still there from yourself as the Minister?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, I would have to go and check my correspondence, but I believe the last correspondence we had from Fort McPherson was that they withdrew their offer.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 672
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Well from the earlier comments, it seemed like that offer was good enough to allow the department to privatize the tank farm in Tuktoyaktuk. Why isn't that offer good in other communities?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, Fort McPherson is basically privatized. We have a private firm operating. If they were to make an offer to us for our inventory in the tank -- and I believe they did this in the past -- and for the tanks themselves, including the clean-up cost, we would definitely consider it, because we have already done it for one company. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, if the firm writes to the department, the department will take the request to the FMBS and to Cabinet to see if in fact we can go through the process, the same process we're using with EGT right now. We've taken that to FMBS with a recommendation to go forward with it. That's why it's now going through the legal process before the deal is signed off. But basically it would be the same process for a request from Fort McPherson.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Petroleum products revolving fund, information item.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Information item. Petroleum products revolving fund. Active positions. Page 5-25 details of work performed on behalf of others. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
I would just like to ask the Minister's department, do you charge an administration fee to these different agencies that perform work on behalf of us in regards to 16 percent, say administration. I would like to know, what is the administration fee that you charge for services provided to these different agents?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, the only administration fee applicable to the work we do on behalf of others is for Nunavut services. Contracting back of services, for that we've charged 6.5 percent.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just like to ask the Minister why is it that you are trying to charge a proposed 16 percent, which is now suggested to be nine percent, to communities when we are charging a lower fee to another government, Nunavut at 6.5 percent, and they are suggesting nine percent to our communities. I would like to ask the Minister exactly why are we charging non-residents of the Northwest Territories a fundamentally lower fee than the residents of the Northwest Territories?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, the 16 percent that the Member refers to is not just administration, there's a planning or management fee included in there, and that is why it is as high as it is. In relation to the other ones, we don't do that type of thing, we just administer. That is why there is a difference in the charge.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
I would just like to ask the Minister about the contract we have in place with the Nunavut government. Who spells out the 6.5 percent? Is there actually a legally binding contract between the parties for such a fee?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you, Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, the contract was put in place, if I recall correctly, by the Executive or Financial Management Board Secretariat, and it was an umbrella contract that all departments had sub-agreements under. Those sub-agreements specified the different services that the individual departments were to provide and it was subject to the terms of the main agreement. The main agreement was where the administration fee was specified. We're really not involved in those agreements anymore. We are not providing any services to the Nunavut government. We are not planning on any for the coming year. They have indicated they don't require our services any further.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
I would just like to ask the Minister's department, knowing that there has been a motion put forth in committee to look at doing away with administration we charge the communities for water and sewage maintenance services, I would like to ask the government, are you going to enact that motion that that has been a recommendation put fourth through this procedure?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we took the recommendation and we dealt with it in relation to other recommendations that came from the committee through the FMBS. We explained to them, or I should say we had MACA explain to them, what exactly this nine percent covers in the agreements that the communities had with Public Works and Services. MACA indicated that if we were to do away with the nine percent, MACA would then have to reduce the grants to those particular communities because they would not be paying those costs. Other communities that were doing the services themselves were actually carrying these costs through their subsidy from MACA for water, sewage and services. How it works is that MACA just can't wipe it off for four communities without affecting how it relates to the other community grants that they would receive for the same services. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 673
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'm not to sure if the communities even planned for this increase in this year's budget so I would like to ask the Minister, knowing that you have requested an increase to the original 16 percent, was there allowance given during the budget process that there will be increases in those communities in regards to the water and sewer subsidy program, knowing that there was going to be an increase in cost associated with delivering that program in their communities. Did the Department of Public Works make a request to MACA to increase the amount of money to communities for the water and sewer program, knowing there was an increase to the administration fee that you were going to charge?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
Vince Steen Nunakput
Public Works and Services did not approach MACA with a request for more funding for the communities to cover the costs of the 16 percent, simply because MACA was already giving these communities these funds to do this thing on their own behalf. If they had Public Works and Services do it for them, then they would be paying Public Works and Services with the funding that they were given by MACA. Every community received program funding in their water and sewage subsidy for management and planning related to the water and sewage program. Thank you.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Page 5-27, detail of work performed on behalf of others, continued. Page 5-28, detail of work performed on behalf of others continued, total departments. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Details of work performed on behalf of others continued, totalling department $1.134 million. Page 5-29, revenue, recoveries and transfer payments. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, under other revenues, it says water and sewage and maintenance services, and we see a major increase in regards to the amount $1.209 million. Could the Minister give me a breakdown of what that amount is for?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the deputy will respond to that question.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, approximately $400,000 of that relates to assuming responsibility for water and sewer services at Rae-Edzo and there are some other increases there that reflect projected costs for services in the other communities as a result of increased costs in labour and materials. Then there is the increased cost for the additional three percent over and above what was being charged to communities before for administration costs.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't think he answered my question. My question is could I have a breakdown of what the $1.209 million is for? What is the actual cost breakdown; where does that money go?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, I can give that breakdown by community if that's what he is asking.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Yes, I would like to know where this $1.2 million is going and how much is going into my riding.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
Rattray
In Aklavik the projected revenue for 2003-2004 is $108,000. In Tsiigehtchic, the projected revenue is $47,000. In Fort McPherson, projected revenue is $676,000 and in Rae-Edzo the projected revenue is $378,000.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Mr. Chairman, I gave a copy of this to the hamlet of Fort McPherson. They were not aware that they would have to pay for that increase with regard to their process. This was not budgeted as part of their budget process. Do you just unilaterally charge administration fees and not allow for the communities to build the fees into their budgetary process, so that they know that this amount will have to be paid and they can budget for it? The budget they have is the same amount they received last year, not knowing there would be an additional cost of $676,000 that will be charged back, plus a nine percent administration fee. That was not planned for. I would like to ask the department again what have you done to inform MACA and the communities that this increase in service fees will be attached to the bill that they will receive this year from the Department of Public Works?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, I believe in MACA's estimates, there was $250,000 more for Fort McPherson to cover these costs.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Mr. Chairman, knowing there have been supplementary appropriations that have come in the last couple of years because of chargebacks or costs that weren't part of the hamlet's expenditures where they have to come forth with a supplementary, why is there such poor planning in this area when it comes to burdens on municipalities, that they have to restructure their budget. Sure, you are going to give $250,000 to the community, that $250,000 is probably for expenditures made last year. For Fort McPherson, you had $676,000 in the budget, so they are still short $400,000. Where do they get that?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 674
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, the $676,000 is total revenue we anticipate we are projecting that we would be getting from Fort McPherson for water services. The community is already base funded, plus they obtain revenues from the sale of water to consumers in the community. Those two sources, their base funding from MACA and the fees they charge for consumption of the water, provide the majority of the dollars that are required to pay for the services that we provide, plus the truck services they provide in the community. A large chunk of the increase has to do with the truck hauling that's taking place now. Again, we are not completely sure with the new system what will be the ongoing operating costs for both the truck system and the operation of the new truck fill station. We are not completely sure what the ongoing operating costs will be, which is why we have been consulting with the community and with MACA on a regular basis over the last year to try to determine some of those costs and to try and ensure the community is not caught short.
MACA has provided funding in the current year and is proposing to provide funding in the next year, again to ensure that the community is not caught short. So the community has been aware of all of these costs on an ongoing basis. What we haven't been able to do is finalize what an ongoing budget figure will be for them because we need some experience with operating the plant, with operating the truck haul before we can provide some solid numbers. Both MACA and Public Works have been working very closely with the community to try to determine those and to make sure there are adequate resources available.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
With regard to your comments, you said there was $400,000 going to Rae because of the three percent increase. What's the three percent increase?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, the three percent increase is the difference between the six percent administration fee we were charging before and the nine percent administration and planning and management fee we are planning on charging beginning on April 1st.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Just getting back to Aklavik, you had $108,000. What is the $108,000 for? Is that the administration fee for providing the service in Aklavik?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, the $108,000 is the total cost for providing the service in the community.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you, Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, the administration fee and the planning and management fee are included in that.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have been speaking to the Minister on the whole idea of trying to work with the communities to eventually allow them to take over this responsibility. A good example is the water truck services in Fort McPherson. It's been going on two years since we switched over to the new water source. When will this department have a rough calculation and estimation of what the real operational cost of that system is going to be? We heard it was going to take a year. We are going on two years now. How long will it be before we have an actual cost breakdown of what the operational costs will be of providing that service?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
Vince Steen Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When the contract runs out with the existing contractor, we would have a year's operation which we could then use as a judgement of what it would cost to operate on an annual basis. It's also the figure that MACA is waiting for so that MACA can adjust the...(inaudible)...to the communities.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Revenue, recoveries and transfer payments. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Does the department have a breakdown of the costs for the last year? We are almost going into two years of this operation now. The hamlet wanted, before they took it over, to have the actual costs associated with running that operation. Knowing your department is responsible for overseeing this project, do we have the cost breakdown to date based on the month-to-month cost calculations of this project? You estimate $676,000. What is that cost based on a monthly breakdown?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, the community does have all of the information in terms of the costs of the operation because we are billing them back for it.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
I didn't ask if the hamlet had the information. I asked if you had the information. You had the information and gave it to somebody else. Do you have the information?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, yes, the department does have the information. We use it to prepare the invoice that we provide to the community.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Can the Minister or deputy minister say what is the rough estimated monthly cost for that operation?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, our estimated cost for 2003-2004 will be $676,000.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
What is the average monthly cost of this operation? It's going to be higher in the winter, less in the summer. Do you have an actual breakdown cost? From what I heard, it was costing $18,000 a month just for diesel fuel. Is that an accurate figure? Could you tell me what's the cost associated? What is the breakdown of that cost per month?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
Rattray
That works out to about $56,000 per month.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 675
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Since I am not getting much information from the deputy minister, I would like to ask for that material to be given to me so I can see for myself what that cost breakdown is. It looks like the deputy minister doesn't want to answer the question, but that's what this process is for.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Did you want written information?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Could I have the printed materials for the breakdown of the monthly cost of this operation for the last month? This project has been going on for two years. That was the whole reason the hamlet was not willing to take this on.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, we can supply the member with the information. It won't be an estimate. It's going to be the actuals that the community has been billed for over the time we've had the contract with them.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
I would like to ask the Minister, does that also include the garaging of these vehicles? Does that include the heating cost associated with garage space?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Vince Steen Nunakput
Mr. Chairman, at the present time, I believe the hamlet is supplying the parking space through the department, so we won't have the breakdown of that cost because that's something they would know.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Could the Minister and his department give me a rough estimate, since it's costing you $56,000 a month, what does that cost break down to? What is that for, the vehicle operation, the operator, the fuel? What is the breakdown of that $56,000?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, I don't have the actual number with me but the largest component of the bill is the truck contract for hauling the water to the community. That's by far the largest component.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, yes, I will be providing that.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Mr. Bell.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Brendan Bell Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just one quick question. I apologize if this material has been covered in any great detail but I wanted to ask about the permitting, specifically going mains to mains, 2002-2003, 2003-2004. There's a bit of a jump, say, in electrical permits and that looks really to be about it, but I am wondering if the Minister could tell me if this was an anticipated increase in the number of permits or if we have raised numbers here.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Thank you. Minister Steen.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Mr. Rattray.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Rattray
Mr. Chairman, that's an anticipated increase in the number of permits. We haven't changed the fees.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Revenues, recoveries and transfer payments.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Go back to page 5-7, department summary, Public Works and Services, operations expense, total operations expense, $44.218 million.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Asset Management
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Cap 7, Public Works and Services, capital acquisition plan, asset management, $200,000.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Systems And Communications
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Systems and communications, $320,000.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Petroleum Products
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Petroleum products, $923,000.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Total department, $1.443 million.
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
Does the committee agree the Department of Public Works and Services is concluded?
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
---Agreed
Committee Motion 10-14(6) To Extend The Three-year Replacement Cycle For Desktop Computers, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 676
The Chair Leon Lafferty
I would like to thank the Minister and his staff.