Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Sergeant-at-Arms, would you escort the witnesses in please.

Mr. Minister, for the record, could you introduce your witnesses, please? Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, with me are Peter Vician, deputy minister of the Department of Transportation, and Mark Aitken, director of the legislation division, Department of Justice. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Review of Bill 13, Deh Cho Bridge Act. I'll open the floor for general comments. Mr. McLeod.

General Comments

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as this project is in my riding, the community involved is also in my riding. I guess it's needless to say how I'm going to vote on this bill. This current bill basically gives this government the mandate to negotiate, and also to introduce a toll. I'm certainly supportive of the Combined Council Alliance's desire to design and finance, construct and operate a bridge at the Deh Cho, Fort Providence crossing. In order to make this happen, we need a partnership with this government. We need the industry and investors, and many other players.

But, Mr. Chairman, the general concept is not a new one. This concept that is being introduced is similar to one that has been used on other infrastructure projects in southern Canada. For example, on the bridge that's linking PEI to New Brunswick, and on Highway No. 407 in Toronto. I'm told there are other projects on a smaller scale.

Mr. Chairman, the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation is proposing to raise the equity and obtain the debt financing to design and finance, build and maintain this bridge. In order to do that, there's a need to enter into an agreement with this government for a concession period of 35 years. In order to service the debt, the government has to introduce a toll, along with some of the cost-saving measures that would be realized from not having to build an ice road and operate the ferry. The revenue would be used to service and retire the debt, to operate and maintain the bridge, and provide a return on shareholder equity. At the end of this concession period of 35 years, the ownership of the bridge will be turned over to this government and the bridge will be paid for and in good condition. At that time, this government could suspend its annual contribution in tolls.

So this project and this proposal would benefit both the government and the users, and also the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation. There are many benefits to the Northwest Territories. For business and industry it would mean more reliable service, greater certainty of access and supplies through eliminating the winter disruptions of one to three weeks, and also the spring closure every year when the ice breaks up and we have the ferry shut down for roughly four weeks. This would also mean reduced costs due to the delays for the ferry and the ice bridge. Even when the ferry is operating during the summer months, it still means adding at least 20 minutes minimum to a one-way trip. It also would mean a savings in cost to finance, transport and store inventory in communities north of the river. We believe the cost freight allowance of $6 a tonne will be more than offset by savings.

To the public it also means reliable service and access for the driving public. It also means reduced risk of storage of goods during the isolation period. There are no fees for the non-commercial traffic.

To the Government of the Northwest Territories the benefits are direct savings from operation and maintenance of the ferry, shore infrastructure, the ice bridge, and the ice bridge access roads. We also believe there will be direct savings in capital, because we'll no longer need to replace or add ferries or invest in support infrastructure. It also supports the strategies of this government, of the 14th Assembly, and we stated that partnership arrangements to help build infrastructure are part of A Better Tomorrow. This is a northern solution with significant economic spin-offs, including direct and indirect fiscal benefits from businesses and employment incomes generated by the construction.

Again, I have to state that at the end of the concession period, the GNWT will acquire the bridge at no cost.

For the Government of Canada, there are again direct and indirect fiscal benefits, from the businesses and employment incomes generated by construction. This project supports the DIAND objectives; the objective to secure First Nations participation in and expand economic benefits from major regional development initiatives in areas such as regional infrastructure projects. This project also supports regional economic development, including the non-renewable resource sector.

Mr. Chairman, the biggest benefit and one of the most important reasons that the community of Fort Providence embarked on this project was for environmental concerns. With this project, we believe that there is a net environmental benefit. There will be reduced risk of spills, reduction in siltation and other disturbance to the river. Several years ago when a truck went through the ice, it really put fear into the hearts of everybody that lived along the Deh Cho. It could have been a major environmental catastrophe.

This project doesn't come without concerns. Most of the communities in the North Slave, especially when it comes to costs, but more so when we talk about any project along the river, the aboriginal people have raised all kinds of concerns. We were wondering what would it mean in terms of migratory birds. Fort Providence and the Mackenzie River are out of the main routes for geese, ducks and shore birds. There has been a lot of concern, especially from our elders, about what this would mean. Would it disturb their route? Would it change their life?

As Mrs. Groenewegen indicated in her Member's statement two days ago, the people are kind of nostalgic about the ferry. We in the community of Fort Providence also look forward to the springtime when the ice doesn't allow us to cross and it's too early for the ferry to cross. We become a fairly isolated community and things really slow down, and it's a real quality time of the year. People go out camping, you don't have to worry about the heavy trucks on the highway, you don't have to worry about a lot of things, and people really look forward to that. With this bridge, of course that will change. Also with the construction of this bridge, we have to be very concerned and it's been stated over and over that there's no damage to the fish habitat.

Mr. Chairman, as the MLA for the community that is embarking on this initiative, I once again want to point out that I am supportive of this project. I have been involved with this project as the MLA representing this community. I'm quite proud that many people have come to the forefront to recognize the benefits of this whole project. People from the community, people from the Northwest Territories, people from within this government, the Department of Transportation including the Minister have really done a lot of work. There is still a lot of work. But without this Bill 13, the project would probably come to a standstill. It's something that's required at this point, and I certainly encourage my colleagues to vote in favour. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. General comments. Mr. Nitah.

Thank you, Mr. Nitah. General comments. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make a few comments. I've been on record through the life of this bill when it was introduced and second reading and throughout the committee process, I have been on record as supporting this bridge, Mr. Chairman. I must say that when I was elected to office a few years ago, I had no idea that I would actually leave the Assembly with a law that would see a bridge in the very near future. Hopefully, before we leave office or soon thereafter, we will see the turning of the sod in that area. Also, I'm really looking forward to driving over that bridge and knowing that this capital city is connected to the rest of the world and the rest of the country every day of the year, and won't be disconnected for a good length of time each spring and fall. I remember during the campaign in 1999, a number of my constituents said get that bridge over there because you cannot plan Christmas holidays or springtime and so on. I do believe that this could not have been a reality without the partnership idea that we have here. I must thank the work of the Member for Deh Cho, Mr. McLeod, for taking on this project from the beginning, and working step by step, tirelessly to make sure that everybody pays the attention to it that needs to be paid. We hear all the time from Mr. McLeod that there's not enough going to the communities, but boy oh boy he could always point to that bridge not too far from his community and say he had a major part to play in that.

Mr. Chairman, since this legislation was introduced, I've had the occasion to talk to my constituents, especially at Tim Horton's, and I happened to be talking to the truckers who were having coffee there. I learned that there's a premium added to the work that they do to drive supplies to the North, especially during break-up or when it's close to break-up because they're not able to predict how long the trip will take. So instead of charging by mileage as would be the case in other parts of the country where there is disruption like this, they charge a premium for getting stuff from High Level or Edmonton or wherever the point of departure is of those supplies.

Also, I am pleased to have discovered and to note in our committee report, that in fact the cost of goods will go down and there will be a savings. Yellowknife Co-op is reporting a savings of as large as $300,000. That, spread out throughout the year, will benefit the membership. The Co-op, in particular, does a lot of work with the communities, so I know that it's a good news item. An operation that big will gain a lot. One could only assume that that would translate the same for other operations like Wal-Mart or anywhere else, and that will translate into the benefit of the residents of Yellowknife.

I know that in our public hearings, constituents had questions about what the impact of this might be to the fly-in communities. Maybe the Minister could shed light on that, because if that is the case -- and I believe that communities around the lake, whether it's Lutselk'e or some of the communities in North, if their supply point is Yellowknife and the Yellowknife businesses are saying that there will be savings -- one would assume that that saving would be spread out to those communities. The Minister's statement indicated that there might be a small increase, but not a big increase. So I guess any potential increase there might be for surrounding communities is the cost of fuel. But I don't see anything different in this equation other than having a bridge. By all accounts, the cost of carrying goods from southern points to here will be less.

So I think that in the end, not only will the cost of goods go down, but we will become a tourist destination for the rubber tire tourist group. I'm sure that there are lots of people who like to get in their RVs and travel all across the country and North America. I am certain that when they look at a map right now and see a dotted line between the remaining parts of Highway No. 3 because it's not paved and it's such a horrible road, and if they see that there's a ferry, when you're competing with every other destination in the country or Alaska or wherever they could go where they don't have to risk damaging their very expensive RVs, I'm sure Yellowknife and the Northwest Territories fall right off the potential designation points. There's no way of telling what we'll be seeing in terms of tourists five, 10, 20 years down the road once the bridge is built.

Also, I support this bridge for many other reasons, one being that I believe it is the role of government to build public infrastructure, and it is a very important role for government to build highways and bridges. Yet I know that if there were no such partnership as this, that we would never be able to get $55 million to build a bridge. We know that. That is more than what the government has budgeted for an entire year of capital spending. So there is no way we could come up with this money. It was very good of Mr. McLeod and his team in Fort Providence to come up with the idea, and to push it as hard and as far as they have.

Also another thing, I know that there are lots of discussions in this Assembly about the fact that there's such a discrepancy in dollars spent between bigger communities versus small communities. I think it's a very legitimate fact for the area that the Member for Deh Cho comes from. In the Fort Providence area, they have not seen as much direct benefit from some of the economic and industrial development that's happening with the mines. They might just go as far as Rae-Edzo, but not as far as Fort Providence. So I think we always have to support in this legislature where we are working on a project that would benefit the area that doesn't see such benefits normally. So I really do believe that that is one of the best things about this project.

I do have to state, Mr. Chairman, that there were concerns raised in the community, and that has to do with the ownership of the bridge. There is a little bit of fear out there that the fact that this bridge will be owned by someone else other than the government, that somehow this would not be public property and that public government will not have the control necessary to make sure that the road is accessible and that it's available to every resident living in the North and every visitor who may travel on that bridge. But I do believe that through the work of this committee and listening to the people and making necessary amendments, we've addressed some of those concerns to a large degree. But I am going to have some specific questions, especially sections pertaining to liability and so on, for the Minister and I'm hoping we'll be able to provide those answers to those concerns.

Maybe I should end by asking the question, Mr. Chairman; the Minister stated that the government will own it so that all the pertinent legislation will apply, such as the Motor Vehicles Act, but he also mentioned about the fact that there's a question about liability and insurance. So may I get the Minister to elaborate on what he knows about what the implications are for liabilities and insurance that he's negotiating with the Bridge Corporation? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The issue of liability is dealt with in section 2(c) of the legislation. It is being negotiated and will be part of the concession agreement with the corporation where they will have to meet requirements for insurance, performance bonds, labour material bonds and all the others that are necessary in this kind of partnership. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Before we go on to the next Member, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome visitors we have in the gallery who have come to observe the proceedings. Welcome to the Legislative Assembly.

---Applause

Mr. Braden, general comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The benefits of this project, perceived or tangible, have been well outlined already by the Minister and my colleagues. There are one or two things in here that I would like to underscore. As a Yellowknife MLA and somebody who is, by and large, I could say I have really enjoyed my voyages on the two different ferry boats I have recollection of and the occasional trip over the ice road, and as my colleague, Mr. McLeod, the Member of Deh Cho said, it will change forever. Part of our northern psyche and our sense of isolation, there is an aspect of that as far as our connections by land with our neighbours south of the lake and then to the rest of Canada, that will change.

It is something that we do look forward to, though. In the last few recent years, the city has experienced a number of disruptions, not just due to freeze-up and break-up, but low water situations, Mr. Chairman, that with climate change, global warming and these kinds of things, seem to be more volatile and will be more of a frequent situation we will have to deal with. Having a bridge will virtually eliminate that kind of concern. As Ms. Lee says, this is also going to impact tourism and, with the combination of a completed surfaced road between here and Rae and the rest of Canada and a bridge, we are indeed going to become a new and a fresh destination for rubber tire traffic in the summer. It will open up avenues of tourism across at least the southern Mackenzie regions and I would even say that would go as far as the Fort Simpson and Liard regions because RV travellers are a pretty mobile, nomadic bunch, Mr. Chairman. They want new destinations and by this new infrastructure, we are going to provide it.

I would offer one flag of warning that has come through in discussion with the business community and that is on the cost of the toll on the commercial traffic. I agree that this is a realistic and fair and viable way of paying for this. The numbers that have been given us so far are estimates. We are told they are very conservative estimates. This information has been transmitted to the business community here and they are, to my understanding, quite accepting of it and trusting it. I think there is going to be a very keen eye, Mr. Chairman, placed on the costs and the amount of the toll that's going to be assessed. We know through working on the bill that we are going to get annual reports that deal with this kind of thing. There are going to be quite adequate provisions for notice of any change that may become necessary or that the Minister may deem required. So there are conditions in here. Of course, nothing is guaranteed but I think the bill does cover the concerns or at least that will allow concerns about any increase in the tolls to be addressed quite forcefully and we will deal with that when it comes, but in the meantime, the benefits of this, the anticipation of it, the impact that it will have on this region and especially for the people of the Deh Cho and Fort Providence is a very welcome one. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. General comments. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some questions for the Minister. The first one has to do with the Deh Cho Bridge fund. One of the concerns that the people have expressed... Right now the way it is set out, the passenger vehicles would not be charged a toll, it's only for commercial vehicles. People are worried about having to pay a fee if that situation changes. My first question is what sort of transparency is there for the operators of the bridge fund to report to the government or to the public what their revenues are and the rate of tolls they charge? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Clause 7 of the bill makes a provision that the Minister must have prepared and report on the collection of the tolls and the administration of the bridge, the amount of the toll collected, the amount of refunds paid out, if there are any and so on. All the detail is laid out in section 7. So as a government, we have to be very upfront with the public about what the revenues are and how it's being managed. As well, clause 10 of the same bill points out that we will have to gazette any changes and we will also have to give notice of any changes in the toll, so the public will have an opportunity to voice any concerns they may have with regard to tolls. Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Lee.

I guess a question for the people is whether they are advised or not, whenever they get an increase, they are not going to be happy with that, especially if it's a large increase. I guess it's important for us to get some assurance from the Minister that should something happen -- which I don't know if it could because we are working with numbers that show that the traffic there could sustain this revenue project -- but in the unlikely event that there is just not enough revenue being raised and the Bridge Corporation is not making enough money or they are not able to cover the cost of operating or financing their debt, what kind of assurance is there that government will not go to the people to collect this money, or will the government be responsible for any major negative balance in that fund? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Handley.

Mr. Chairman, the estimates we have used in arriving at the toll of $5 to $6 a tonne are based on very conservative estimates of traffic. So we do not anticipate that there is going to be any need for any increases in tolls unless our economy was to really fall apart. If that were to happen, of course I think we would be in trouble on a lot of fronts, but we have been as conservative as we realistically can be. We don't foresee that there is going to be a need. We've also included factors for inflation and all the other costs that we may be running into with the estimates that we've done. So unless our economy was to fall apart, Mr. Chairman, I am pretty confident that this government or future governments will not have to be imposing larger tolls. In fact, it will probably work the other way because of a growth in our economy and the number of people who have been on a pattern of gradually growing. Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The next question I have is with regard to the cost implications for the fly-in communities around the lake. The Minister's statement states there will be some increase, a third of a cent per pound of freight or about $10,000 total per year for all these communities together, which I am assuming is about four or five. I don't understand this figure, Mr. Chairman, because if they are getting supplied from Yellowknife, the information we have is the cost of freight and, therefore, cost of goods will go down. So why is it that the Minister is projecting that some of these communities will see an increase, however small that might be? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.