I would like to draw your attention to special guests in the gallery this morning: the senior team for the Canada Seniors' Games. Welcome to the Legislative Assembly.

---Applause

Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise Members that the Honourable Michael Miltenberger will be absent from the House today to attend the federal/provincial/territorial Ministers of Health meeting in Vancouver. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Minister of Justice, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report on the action this government is taking as we move toward the elimination of family violence in the NWT.

The government of the 15th Assembly has a strong commitment to social issues. One of the goals of the GNWT's strategic plan is to have "healthy, educated people living in safe communities, who are able to contribute and take advantage of life's opportunities." In particular, Mr. Speaker, the strategic plan identifies the need to strengthen support for families in conflict and to support initiatives to build safer communities.

Today I am pleased to release the Government of the Northwest Territories Response to the NWT Action Plan on Family Violence, 2003-2008: A Framework for Action. This is the GNWT response to the NWT action plan on family violence, a report prepared by the NWT Coalition Against Family Violence. The framework identifies 72 actions involving collaboration and partnership by Government of the Northwest Territories departments and coalition agencies.

Mr. Speaker, the development of this framework has taken some time but the work we have done with the coalition is well worth the wait. Our framework for action is strengthened because it builds on the partnership of the coalition and the GNWT.

Our response outlines actions that can be achieved within existing resources to provide better service to victims of family violence across the NWT. Actions such as implementation of the Protection Against Family Violence Act, developing NWT best practices models and an integrated community response to family violence will go a long way toward increasing supports for victims and children who witness violence.

The GNWT has already begun taking actions included in the framework. One of the most significant activities is the intensive and ongoing work we are doing for the implementation of the protection against Family Violence Act. A coordinator has been hired by the Department of Justice to work with the Implementation Advisory Committee. Training activities continue with those who will have a direct role in the legislation, this includes justices of the peace, RCMP, shelter workers and court staff. As well, all communities in the NWT will have an opportunity to provide advice on the delivery process.

The Department of Justice continues to develop a public information campaign for the act. Materials will be in plain languages and will be aimed at those who are particularly vulnerable to family violence. As well, a monitoring and evaluation framework is being developed. All this activity represents over a $400,000 investment in protection against family violence this fiscal year.

Mr. Speaker, along with implementing the legislation, interagency work has begun in the areas of policy and legislative review, standardizing family violence definitions, intergovernmental funding mechanisms, and training for professionals. Research has begun to examine the issue of gender equity in GNWT policies and programming. More work will begin shortly.

The departments of Justice, Health and Social Services, Education, Culture and Employment, the Executive and the NWT Housing Corporation have all made this work a priority over the next three years. As a first step, Ministers will be required to report on how their responsibilities under the action plan have been incorporated in the business plans for next spring.

I want to echo the Premier's comments on Wednesday and recognize the hard work of the coalition. Their continued support and dedication to improving the lives of all northern families makes it possible to advance this work. Their work is extremely important because of what is means to eliminate family violence in our communities, our regions and our territory. I look forward to working with the coalition and my Cabinet colleagues to implement the commitments the GNWT has made. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I would like to recognize a group of greatly spirited northerners who attended the Canada Senior Games in Whitehorse in September as ambassadors of the Northwest Territories. Team NWT was made up of 28 seniors, those aged 55 and older, from Fort Smith, Hay River and Yellowknife. They competed in seven different categories including golf, bowling, darts, contract and duplicate bridge, Scrabble and curling. The team brought home gold, silver and bronze medals in five of those categories for a total count of 10 medals. Those medal winners include Harry Sudom and Roy Bursey from Fort Smith, Robert Sibbeston from Hay River; and, Fred Koe, Dave Wind, Anne Wind, Brad Whitehead, Darryl Green, Helena Haener and Fred Couch, all of Yellowknife.

I would like to especially mention the oldest player from the NWT to attend, Ms. Prakash Chugh of Yellowknife, who is 83 years old.

---Applause

Prakash competed in the bowling category. Mr. Speaker, the energy and commitment of these individuals in the NWT Seniors' Society as a whole is admirable. They have contributed to the growth and prosperity of the Northwest Territories over the years and continue to be valuable resources for us today. I understand that the NWT Seniors' Society is already starting to work on its team for 2006 in Portage La Prairie, Manitoba. Promoting an active lifestyle in all stages of life is important for one's health and well-being.

I commend the NWT Seniors' Society for the dedication and work it devotes to the seniors and elders in the North. I also commend them for the amount of fundraising they do on their own. I think it's important that the government recognize their efforts by continuing to provide funding for their activities. To their credit, Sport North and MACA provided $10,000 for the seniors' team to attend the Whitehorse games.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. They also provided their uniforms, which were worth $5,000.

Mr. Speaker, we are fortunate to have many of the members of the NWT Seniors' Society in the House today, many of whom were part of Team NWT. Mr. Speaker, at the appropriate time on today's order paper, I will recognize those in the crowd. Thank you very much.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I am making a brief statement to mention two important events that took place in Tuktoyaktuk. They are the ladies Take Back the Night march and Family Violence Week.

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to say that it was a pleasure to partake in these events. It was wonderful to see so many elders, youth, adults and government employees partake in the events that followed, such as food snacks, games and sing-a-longs. Mayor Jackie Jacobson, myself and government employees started off with opening speeches to remind everyone to love, respect and care for one another.

Many thanks should go to the coordinators of these events. Mr. Speaker, we must remember to always start each day by respecting and loving our elders, children, friends and neighbours. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Good morning. Mr. Speaker, the income support system in the North is one that's received recognition for its philosophy, for its approach, and for its effectiveness. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, we know that for an estimated 80 percent, or about three-quarters of the clients who come onto this system, it does work very well. It is intended to be a temporary hand-up to help people get on their feet, get re-established and into the community and working on their own.

However, Mr. Speaker, there are some people -- and I would suggest that it's about one-quarter of the clients -- who continue to have chronic difficulties and issues with the support system and, I think especially, Mr. Speaker, the way that controls and criteria and limitations are placed on it. For some people, especially those with lifestyle and disabilities issues, they just don't have the skills, Mr. Speaker, to cope with some of these conditions.

Let me give you a few examples. Landlords in Yellowknife, I am told, are very reluctant to accept income support clients as tenants, Mr. Speaker. The reason is at least partially because of the systematic way that their payments are administered by the system. Sometimes mistakes are made and landlords do not get paid and they end up carrying the bill.

This is not a healthy situation in an economy and community where housing is at a premium. Mr. Speaker, income tax refunds are continually clawed back. Most Canadians look forward to this kind of thing if they are in that position, even income support clients can get income tax refunds, but we claw them back.

Mr. Speaker, even families who have been gifted with things like airline tickets to go to a funeral, in one case, got the value of that ticket clawed back. Mr. Speaker, there are double standards. We in this government, as MLAs, are on this same plan. We get about $60 a day for

food allowances when we are travelling, but an income support client, a single mom with one child, gets $230 a month. They get the equivalent of what we get in four days for food allowances.

Mr. Speaker, these are chronic issues that continue to be unacceptable and I want to bring them to the attention of the House. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Item 3, Members' Statements. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will stay on the theme of elders. Mr. Speaker, from August 9 to 11, 2004, the first Sahtu Elders' Conference was held in Deline. The purpose of the conference was to bring elders together to discuss important issues regarding the communities of the Sahtu region and to talk about forming a Sahtu elders' council. That would include elders in a decision-making process on an ongoing basis.

Mr. Speaker, traditionally, aboriginal elders played a key role in our communities. Their wisdom, experience and stories are crucial to the success of our people. During the conference, more than 30 elders from the five Sahtu communities developed a slogan, "Our Life, Our Land." Mr. Speaker, what affects our life, affects our land; what affects our land, affects our life.

Mr. Speaker, it is critical to ensure elders have a role not only concerning seniors' issues, but issues concerning the Sahtu as a whole. Traditions are changing and the threat of losing the traditions, upbringing and the gap between elders and youth because of the wage economy has become a reality and a concern of the Sahtu people.

Mr. Speaker, other concerns revolve around the impact of development and change throughout the region, specifically in the areas of health and social services, the social programs, the education system and the high rate of aboriginal children dropping out of school. In addition, the elders are concerned with the pension clawback and government's policies and laws. They feel that these laws are preventing them from participating equitably in our communities.

Mr. Speaker, recommendations developed by the elders are to create a Sahtu elders' council, hold another Sahtu elders' conference in the winter of 2005 and invite federal and territorial governments, oil and gas industry representatives and Sahtu leaders for the next elders' gathering, and also to work with the Sahtu youth.

Mr. Speaker, the Sahtu conference, in terms of participation, recommended full intentions to be part of the decision-making process and was a huge success and a positive benefit to the Sahtu people. I would encourage other regions to do similar things for their own elders.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Deline First Nation for their hard work in hosting the event and the many sponsors who contributed to this wonderful event. I would like to thank the people of the Sahtu region for making it happen. Mahsi.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Villeneuve.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this summer, July 13, 2004, I was privileged to hold a meeting in Deninu Kue with the Deninu Kue First Nations, the Metis Nation, the public and six Members of our Cabinet. I wanted to thank Premier Joe Handley, Ministers Bell, Miltenberger, McLeod, Dent and Krutko, for taking the time to visit and discuss many of the issues with the community leadership and the public.

Community leadership was very appreciative of this and looks forward to following up on some of the concerns brought forward. The public is also looking forward to having Minister Miltenberger and Minister Krutko revisit and consult with the community on many important health and housing issues, and also a visit sometime by Deputy Premier Roland to address some property taxation issues and other financial concerns.

Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to point out the significance of this meeting and the fact that the Deninu Kue First Nations and the Metis Nation have actually sat and met is a very big step in improving overall community governance and cooperation in the delivery of community affairs and programs.

I want to commend Chief Sayine and the newly-elected Metis president, Lloyd Cardinal, with their open-minded and respectful consideration of their respective community councils, concerns and direction while working towards a more cohesive working relationship within the communities.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that is also the beginning of a new and improved working relationship between the leaders of Tu Nedhe and the Government of the Northwest Territories, one which encompasses more community input and consideration on government programs, services and initiatives, more effective co-management and fiscal responsibility, and especially more respect and acknowledgement of the hardships people in smaller communities are burdened with on a daily basis.

With that, I am glad to say that I feel optimistic that this government will continue to support and encourage more open communication between government officials and the people in the remote communities. I offer my support to this government to continue to work towards achieving the higher level of remote community pride and confidence in the Government of the Northwest Territories. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I had an opportunity to travel back home on October 8th for the official opening of the Aurora Campus facility in Inuvik. I was joined by Commissioner Hansen; Ministers Dent and Krutko; the president of the Gwich'in Tribal Council, Mr. Fred Carmichael; and a representative of the Inuvialuit, Mr. Eddie Dillon.

Mr. Speaker, in these types of events and facilities that are opened up, we must recognize the hard work and contribution of a lot of individuals. There are far too many to mention at this time, but for sure one of the key players in making sure this went along, and kept reminding members from the Beaufort-Delta that it was an important facility that needed to continue to stay on track, was Ms. Miki O'Kane and the staff of the campus, as well, for making the shift a good one.

Mr. Speaker, it's an important facility and is recognized as such just by seeing how many people came to the turnout. It was a full house. Elders, students, businesspeople and government workers were there to see that this was an important event and open to continue with the education of adult learning. We were reminded that it doesn't matter how old you are, you can still go back and gain more experience and education and go forward with that.

I just wanted to recognize that from the community end, it was a good event, a good time and it was good to see the atmosphere that was created by opening this facility. We were also put on notice, Mr. Speaker, by Mr. Carmichael that the student residence is the next issue that the community intends to bring to the table and push as they see it as an important part of this facility.

Congratulations to the campus and their new environment, the new building, and thanks to all those who turned out and made it a success. Again, thanks to our government for meeting with the community and addressing the needs of that community and region. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak today on the issue of recreation and recreational facilities, specifically in the community of Nahanni Butte. It is a well-known fact that a good, comprehensive education requires not only academic or vocational instruction, but recreational opportunities as well. More than that, the provision of recreational opportunities is a necessary part of helping people make healthy lifestyle choices. I am pleased to see that the government recognizes this fact. In the 2004 strategic plan, which the Minister of Education earlier referred to in his statement, the government promises to support recreation and sports initiatives that provide opportunities for physical activity and personal development. Further, the government supports initiatives that encourage individuals, especially youth, to make positive lifestyle choices. My concern, Mr. Speaker, is that these recreational opportunities and choices that are necessary for well-rounded education and a balanced lifestyle are not being provided equally to all residents of the Northwest Territories. In the community of Nahanni Butte, in my riding, there is no school gymnasium. More than that, it appears the government has no plans to provide the community with a gymnasium for at least another 13 years; in the year 2017, Mr. Speaker. Nahanni Butte may be the only community in the whole of the Northwest Territories that does not have a school gymnasium. This is an unacceptable state of affairs.

Elsewhere in the North, existing schools and recreational facilities are being expanded and upgraded. Recreational opportunities and facilities are being improved for certain residents, while the residents of Nahanni Butte are completely denied the same opportunity to participate in life. They don't have a choice, and they are not being offered one, Mr. Speaker. I believe it is a simple matter of fairness and equality in a democratic society that all residents receive the same basic level of service before we consider increasing or improving services that others already receive. The youth of Nahanni Butte need a gymnasium. If this government is serious about supporting recreation initiatives for everyone and about helping everyone make healthy choices, then now is the time to do it. Give the youth of Nahanni Butte what everyone else has and don't wait 13 years to do it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Zoe.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in our vision for the 15th Legislative Assembly, we talk about people making productive lifestyle choices for themselves and their families and elders being supported by their community. The Government of the Northwest Territories has also included these goals in the strategic plan. Productive lifestyle choices and employment opportunities are nice words, Mr. Speaker, but these things are not going to happen if the system continues to discourage people from working.

Mr. Speaker, I want to give you a little example here. I am aware of an elderly couple in Wha Ti who have been denied their seniors' fuel subsidy because they have been assessed on overall household income. Mr. Speaker, this elderly couple has their daughter and granddaughter living with them, who is currently working at a local store for a minimum wage. Their daughter wants to work and is using her income to buy groceries and other household items for herself, her parents and her child. Yet we are penalizing the elders who are not receiving their fuel subsidy and also the young daughter who wants to work, by discouraging her from working in order for her parents to receive the seniors' fuel subsidy. Mr. Speaker, what incentive is there for her to keep working and helping her parents out?

Mr. Speaker, this is just one of the many flaws in the income support system that needs to be addressed, and it should be addressed soon. We can't keep asking people

to make productive choices on one hand and punish them with the other. This is exactly what the government, with their income support, is doing to them. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to recognize some competitors from Team NWT that we have here in the audience with us today. I will go through the list: Sandra Taylor, welcome; Howard and Josie Gould, David and Anne Wind, Mr. Fred Koe, Mike and Helena Haener, Albert and Gladys Eggenberger, Brad Whitehead, Prakash Chugh, Helena To, and Liz Bailey-Hopf. Also, I would like to mention Barb Hood, the team manager. Welcome, Barb. Also, present today with us is Ms. Beatrice Campbell. She is the president of the NWT Seniors' Society from Fort Smith. Welcome, Beatrice. Also, Mr. Speaker, I would like to just make a mention of Mr. Fred Couch who is one of my constituents and also won the first gold medal for Team NWT. He could not be with us today because he is recuperating from surgery at Stanton Territorial Hospital. Thank you, everybody.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Mr. Speaker, it is a real pleasure to repeat what my colleague has said on behalf of some of my constituents: Mike and Helena Haener and Josie and Howie Gould. Congratulations. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to recognize the president of the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, Mr. Fred Koe, and also Bea Campbell, the president of the Seniors' Society. Welcome to the House, and all the elders up there. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will be brief. I, too, wish to acknowledge the great efforts that the NWT seniors' team put forward by recognizing them, as well. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to also recognize the elders. Way to go.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. I would also like to welcome all the seniors here. When I took the job of Speaker, I was registered to compete as part of that team. I would like the seniors up there to know that I would be very proud to sit up there as part of the seniors' team. Welcome to the Legislative Assembly.

---Applause

Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I have a few questions for the Minister of Justice, Mr. Charles Dent. I would just like to know how it is the new family Legal Aid office ended up leasing space in what amounts to a retail mall in Yellowknife. Perhaps between him and Minister Floyd Roland, Minister of Public Works, they could explain how that transaction transpired. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Minister of Justice, the Honourable Mr. Dent. Mr. Premier.

Mr. Speaker, the question should be referred to Mr. Roland, the Minister of Public Works and Services. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Minister of Public Works and Services, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the concern that is being raised. For that office space, a request for proposals went out in late summer. It was issued, and a number of parties put in proposals. What had happened was the space that was required in the RFP was not met, and based on the number of calls that were made trying to secure the location, it was decided at that point that one of the proponents did have a suitable space, but didn't make the cut-off time for the RFP. It was contacted and discussions were entered into and an agreement was made. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thanks, Mr. Minister, for the response. I find it hard to believe that this government would put a Legal Aid office in a retail mall and pay top dollar for the rental space when there are other options out there, Mr. Speaker. The retailers in that mall are not happy that a Legal Aid office is going into prime retail space, and I know and I've heard that leasehold improvements won't start on that space until November 1st. Mr. Speaker, is it too late to look at a different location for this office? It just doesn't fit in a retail setting. I mean, the clientele who will be attending it...It just shouldn't happen that way, Mr. Speaker, and I'd like

the Minister to let us know if it's not too late to have another look at another location. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess number one is from the Public Works and Services end when we were reviewing the request for space, preferred locations, we don't put a lot of weight on who the clientele might be going into that space. What we did look at was the request for the space, storefront or easy access by disabled persons. So in reviewing the proposal that came out, it was determined that that space wasn't adequate. There were discussions held with those who did put in proposals and found out there was still not adequate space that could be suitable for this location. The one party that did have adequate space that was in the area of downtown and accessible by disabled persons, discussions were held with them and an agreement was made and a contract was entered into. So at this point the contract has been signed for an initial five-year lease, with options to extend. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a five-year lease, but it amounts to a 15-year lease, Mr. Speaker, because they have a five-year lease and two options for five additional years each, for a total of 15 years in a retail setting. I'm just wondering, Mr. Speaker, what the premium is that this government is going to pay. I know dollars are at a premium. What is that premium that we're going to pay to put an office in a retail mall? There has to be a premium that we're paying. It's top dollar, it's prime retail space, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to know what that is and is that going to cut into the services that are going to be offered through this office? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't have the information on the actual dollar figures at this point. I can share with the Member or committee members if there is a concern about that, but what we've done is work with the Department of Justice who required this space, who knew there was a budget to operate within, and based on those parameters with the results that came back with the RFP, had discussions with the proponent, being the Department of Justice, and there was agreement that this was the best avenue to work in. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For a government that purports to support small business, this is a major step backwards, Mr. Speaker. I'm wondering if the government has taken any consideration into the fact that it's harming, by putting a Legal Aid office into a retail mall, the small businesses that are located in that mall. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess I would have difficulty in recognizing how we are harming the operations of a company that did put in a response to an RFP. This company had put in their response. All three were actually deemed not to make the cut, but when we looked at what was on the table and the request for the space, and this was seen as adequate space in a downtown location where people can easily access the service that's been asked for, it was felt that this was the avenue to go. Again with discussions with the Department of Justice, we felt that this was the avenue we go with. It may not be the best and the 15-year term the Member refers to, again, it's a five-year lease with an option to extend. If we find that it's just not fitting or the Department of Justice finds that it is not working there, at that point we can review the options that are available to us. We all know that here in the city of Yellowknife space is very, very tight and everything is going at a premium. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question today is to the Premier of the Northwest Territories. Mr. Speaker, Nellie Cournoyea, the chair and CEO of IRC; Fred Carmichael, president of the Gwich'in Tribal Council; Grand Chief Frank Andrew of the Sahtu Dene Council; and the interim president Raymond Taniton, chair of the Sahtu Secretariat, put forward their views on the circumstances surrounding the recent court decision by the Deh Cho. In response, the leaders of the three settlement claims expressed their opinions that the legal actions taken by the Deh Cho represent a threat to the Mackenzie gas project and deliberately undermine the rights of the claimant group and future economic well-being of the three regions. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier what is the position of the Government of the Northwest Territories on the Deh Cho First Nation's legal action? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The item you referred to, Mr. Yakeleya, is presently before the courts and should not be discussed in this House. So I'm going to rule that question out of order.

---Ruled Out of Order

Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Mr. Speaker, thank you. I would like to follow up on some issues raised regarding income support. Sir, this is with the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent. These are chronic issues and it has had an effect on, certainly not all, but a substantive number of clients on an ongoing basis. We have so many rules in place regarding clawbacks and income levels, timelines and deadlines, and repetitive and sometimes very invasive reporting requirements, and it amounts really to controlling, not helping these people. What are we doing, or are we doing anything, Mr. Speaker, to change the way we do business in our approach to supporting these clients? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Could you clarify to which Minister you are referring your question? Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The question is directed to Mr. Dent, the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the department responds to comments, suggestions and criticisms that may come from non-government agencies or from standing committees of this House or Members of this House by checking to see whether or not the policies need to be revised or reviewed. So there is a constant process of examination to see whether or not the process that we undertake in the income support field is proper and adequate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This gets us part way into the area that I would like to explore. The Minister is quite correct. You know it is in our policies and the limitations that we design and then we set in those programs. The people who actually deliver these, I have the highest praise for. They handle a difficult job and most of the time, Mr. Speaker, they do it very well. We have ways of monitoring those kinds of things that I have illustrated and that my colleague Mr. Zoe talked about, that have been there for years, Mr. Speaker. What are we doing to really address these issues? As I have asked previously, will you change the way we do business to look after these clients who have different sets of circumstances than the majority? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As well as the ongoing regular consideration of our programs and policies and the response to comments or criticisms, there have been, over the past five, six or seven years, a number of reviews of the program that have resulted in changes; for instance, the way in which we deal with those who have handicaps. They are now treated significantly differently than they were a number of years ago. The program has changed to respond to different needs and different circumstances. As I said, sometimes there have been formal reviews, more often the reviews have been as a result of internal examinations. Some of the issues, though, there haven't been any changes to because the policy hasn't been seen as required to be changed. For instance, if we have a policy that says that somebody's household only qualifies for assistance if they have lower than this income, that policy doesn't tend to change as quickly as the way in which the program is delivered. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Mr. Speaker, I take up the example that my colleague Mr. Zoe raised, I guess as an illustration of our approach. Of course, it does make sense to have limitations on the amount of support that taxpayers' money goes into in a given household. We have to have some way of measuring and keeping some measure of sound management on this kind of thing. Does it really amount to helping people, or have we simply designed, got our system designed, so that it works very well for us, as legislators and budgeters and policy people, or have we really designed something that looks at this through the eyes and the lives of -- we call them clients -- but they are residents, they are people, they are constituents? When are we going to adjust our systems so that we can accommodate that point of view? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it does right now. I think our system does accommodate differences, but there has to be a policy base for all that we do.

Ten years ago the policy was...For instance, the Seniors' Fuel Subsidy was a universal program. Everybody in the Northwest Territories who was a senior got the program, no matter what their income was or whether they needed it. This Legislative Assembly made a policy change to say that government funds would only be provided to assist seniors for fuel when there was fiscal need, and set the standards then for that fiscal need. There are three different standards, depending on the community in which a senior lives. That was a policy decision. It was set in this Legislative Assembly and agreed to by the Assembly, and the budget is passed for that program based on what is presented in this Assembly. So we as legislators have made those changes to policy in the past and can again

make those changes in policy where they are seen as necessary. Those are the sorts of ways in which a policy can be changed, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final supplementary, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the answers from the Minister. He did, I think in response to an earlier question, say that there is a process of monitoring and checking and vetting and confirming that what we are doing is indeed the right thing. Can the Minister advise of perhaps the most recent report that there may have been on that, or when the next monitoring or reporting cycle will come up? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there were program reviews in 1995, 1996, another one in 1996, three in 1998, a further one in 2001. Those were the formal ones. We have the ongoing ones. I have had some ongoing discussions with the Standing Committee on Social Programs, as to the operation of our current Income Support Program, and will continue to have that dialogue with them to find out their opinion on our programs and policies.

I am also committed to bringing forward to the standing committee a policy framework for income security and how this government delivers that to the standing committee this fall. So sometime before Christmas I will present to the standing committee a policy underpinning, if you will, for all of our income security programs, just to make sure that we are offering our programs in a consistent and fair manner.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to follow up on some of the issues that honourable Member Bill Braden has been raising with the Income Support Program. I believe the Minister was talking about the program itself. I think that the program, the low income and the Income Support Program today has to start focusing on what people need instead of what the government currently has to offer.

Just to follow up on the point I was making in yesterday's session, Mr. Speaker, about the option where the households all get to lose their eligibility for income support, when one member of the household or the head of the household reaches the ineligibility threshold, this policy basically works against anybody who wants to get out of income support. If a member of the household suddenly goes out and makes a productive choice, carries through with some education, goes out and gets a job and goes beyond the income threshold, that would make them ineligible for income support. Now everybody that is on income support or receives income support in that household is suddenly ineligible, because of this policy that says that the government is saying that families have to start relying on family members for support. I don't think that that policy stands too well with anybody who wants to go out and get a job and then come home and all of a sudden they are the breadwinner of the family.

I just want to ask the Minister if he would commit to reviewing and clearing up the many inconsistencies between the current Income Support Program, and target more support to meet the individual needs in the communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this House helps me set the policies for income support, and I would have to work with Members in this House to review the policy if that is the will. I am quite prepared to embark on that initiative. I have, in fact, started some of that work with the standing committee; it started some time ago. The Standing Committee on Social Programs and I have met several times to talk about the policies, the underpinnings for the program and how it is delivered.

I think one of the things we have to first of all decide is, is this program an entitlement? Right now, our government's philosophy is that you are not entitled to income support. It is a program of last resort, only provided to make sure people are not going to freeze to death or starve to death. It is not an entitlement program where people are guaranteed a minimum income. That is the basic philosophy that underpins the program right now. If that is the type of program, then all of the income that is available to an individual is assessed before this government then tops up what else is available, or tops up what is available to them to bring them up to the absolute minimum. That is all the program has been designed to do right now. If Members want to talk about the philosophy of the program and whether it should be a guaranteed minimum income, or the kind of program we have now, I'm quite prepared to embark on that discussion. We have to remember, of course, that every time we change the philosophy of the program, we're also going to change the cost of the program, and perhaps significantly. So that all has to be worked into our discussions, as well. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank the Minister for his response. Talking about costs of the program; income support beneficiaries and income support dollars have been going out to the recipients and beneficiaries and clients in the Tu Nedhe region. Actually, from 1999 to 2003 it has gone up by $50,000, Mr. Speaker. I don't think the program is designed to spend more money for income support, as the Minister has stated. Since 1999, there has been a lot of economic

development in the Tu Nedhe region and in the surrounding regions in the NWT, and it seems like there's more income support money going out to the communities now than there was in 1999 since all this activity began. I want to ask the Minister if the policy is really to top up everybody's income, then there must be more people unemployed. In the current economic situation that we're in, I don't see how that could happen. I just wanted to ask the Minister if he will put something on the record that says we should revisit the whole Income Support Program and maybe split it up into separate programs for disabled people with permanent disabilities, for instance, and...

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. There was a question there; I'll put it to the Minister. Thank you. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Member talked about the increase in payments in income support in the region. One of the things that have driven up the payments is that benefit levels have substantially increased since 1999. The amount that is paid for food, the amount that is paid for accommodation, all of those payments have gone up substantially since 1999. We have a very rich program in comparison to the rest of Canada. Is it rich to people who have to try and get by on it? No. It is a program of last resort. But, yes, the costs have gone up in some regions because the benefits have increased substantially.

The issue of whether or not we would separate it into a number of different programs; in fact, one of the issues that I will be talking to the Standing Committee on Social Programs about is reducing the numbers of programs that we have, because as a policy the government should have a consistent approach to how benefits are provided to people in the Northwest Territories. Therefore, in fact, the policy framework that I mentioned to Mr. Braden that I will be presenting to the standing committee will propose that there be fewer categories, not more. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm glad to hear that the Minister is looking forward to making some changes in the program. I just wanted to ask the Minister about some of the client information that trickles down to the grassroots level from the policies that are in the Income Support Program. A lot of the income support officers in the communities don't have the information available to them to present to clients to make a lot of productive choices. They don't have information on human resource capacity building programs with the federal government; therefore, they can't pass them on to the clients to make some productive choices, and they don't have information on the jobs available in the mines, training programs and such. So a lot of these officers basically are being blamed by their clients for the lack of information they receive and the lack of support and reassessment in the whole program that they're delivering. I just want to ask the Minister if he would be willing to provide some direction to the Income Support Program management that information for human resource capacity building, job creation, education and all that, that he makes sure that all this information does get down to the grassroots where the people really need it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, our income support workers undergo regular training, they have a number of occasions a year in which they are provided with information to make sure that they can pass this on to their clients. If the Member has a concern about a particular community, I hope that he will come and talk to me about it and we will address that as quickly as we can. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Your final supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would be glad to meet with the Minister sometime to talk about some new policy initiatives that I would have in mind on how we could better support individuals' needs, as opposed to just offering people what the government has to offer. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. I didn't hear a question in there. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise because I have some serious concerns with our social housing policy in my constituency. Mr. Speaker, I have been invited to go downtown to visit some of my constituents who are disabled, and they showed me personally the access they have into their homes, and showed me the difficulties they have with living in these horrific circumstances. I think the policy, as it's designed right now, if there is a policy -- which I will be asking the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation -- is very degrading, because I don't think folks are living in good circumstances. So I will be asking a question of the Minister in reference to a person in a wheelchair who has difficulty getting onto a toilet; I have people with MS who can't even get their scooters into their apartments so they can get charged, because they can't walk, they can't open the doors to the laundry. I guess with all of those points said, to the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Speaker, my question is do we have a policy with regard to accessible living for people with disabilities? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as a corporation, we do have units that are designated for people with disabilities. The people who do come forward through the corporation to access our units are given priority, and there are units that are designated for people with disabilities. I'm not too sure if the Member is talking about clients in the Housing Corporation units through North Slave housing or other housing co-operatives that are here in Yellowknife, or if you're talking in general. Maybe the Member could clarify his question.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure if it really matters, because the fact is accessible living should be accessible living, so it should be considered a standard regardless of which envelope they fall under. Mr. Speaker, I will make a true commitment that the landlord did make an effort: they widened doors and they put in bigger showers. But, Mr. Speaker, when I have a person in a wheelchair who can't even reach his towel, he has to throw it on the floor or half in the shower. My question really is what policy do we have under the responsibility of the Housing Corporation, under their arm, their ability, under their policy wing, for accessible living for people who are disabled? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we do have programs to assist the private sector, seniors and people with disabilities, with regard to different maintenance programs. If that means assisting them by way of having the equipment there that will make life easier for people with disabilities by way of bathroom attachments to the walls so they're able to have access to get in and out of the washrooms, I think those types of things we do have different programs through the corporation, through the home repair program, through the maintenance program for seniors and people with disabilities. So with regard to the Member's question, we are working with the people in the private sector who are able to access the different programs that we deliver. I think it's incumbent upon ourselves here, as Members of the Legislature, to improve the lives of people with disabilities. We do have arrangements, but again they are programs that people have to apply for through the corporation to be able to facilitate and also make these adjustments. So we do have programs through our different maintenance programs to assist in that area.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate what the Minister is saying, but, Mr. Speaker, my constituents have bare cupboards. Their cupboards are bare. I will say clearly why: because they can't reach them, Mr. Speaker. I went into one unit; the dishes were dirty because they can't wash them. Every time they reach over the counter, their arms are halfway in the buckets of water in the sink. Mr. Speaker, if you were one of these constituents of mine, and you are trying to get food out of the oven, and you are in a wheelchair or on a scooter or stroller because you have MS, you can only reach with one hand. How do you wheel yourself back to the counter with those things out of the oven? It is impossible. So, Mr. Speaker, we have to be looking at some type of audit on these units. I would certainly like to hear today, because these folks are not living with pride, Mr. Speaker. These folks are living in almost horrific conditions. So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to hear from the Minister today that he would commit to do an audit on these units and deliver a clear policy in the Housing Corporation that demonstrates accessible living as meant to be done in a safe and healthy fashion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would direct the department to look into that and see how many units we do presently have that have accessibility for people with disabilities. I know we do have them in most of our communities, so I won't have a problem getting that information to the Member.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Final supplementary, Mr. Hawkins. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. I was going to follow up with some questions to the Minister of MACA with regard to my Member's statement. MACA officials and the Minister met with the community of Nahanni Butte. The community had indicated that this particular item is a high priority for them. It is my thinking that a community's priority is our priority. Can the Minister confirm that the government still has no plans to provide the residents of Nahanni Butte with a gymnasium until the year 2017?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Member is correct. We have looked at the situation with the community of Nahanni Butte. Unfortunately, capital projects of that nature have to compete with other infrastructure needs in the communities. At this point, there is no intention of trying to move that facility up. We are working with the community. We have provided some funding for a youth

facility through our Community Initiatives Program. But, at this point, we haven't been able to commit to requesting that facility be moved up. It has to compete with other infrastructure and makes it very difficult. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister promise to the youth in Nahanni Butte that they will be provided with the same recreational opportunities that all other youth of the Northwest Territories enjoy before all the students currently attending school in the Nahanni Butte have graduated? Mr. Speaker, we have a whole generation that will graduate before even getting a gymnasium. They can't even play volleyball and indoor soccer. I would like the Minister to look at getting us a gymnasium. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, during our tour this summer with the communities in Nahendeh, we had discussed this issue. We had committed that we would work with them to see what is available. The issue of a gymnasium and a standard across the board, I am not sure how many other communities don't have gymnasiums. In some communities, it is attached to the school. In this case, there is no intention for a facility to be attached to the school. There are only 25 students in the school. We would like to sit down and talk to the community about a multi-purpose hall as soon as we get a chance and look at what we can do. But, at this time, we have no plans to put in a school gymnasium. It is in the capital needs. However, as the Member has indicated, it is quite a ways down the road. It would be very difficult to move forward. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Mr. Speaker, I find it quite outrageous that the Minister would reference how many students are in that school when communities of even smaller sizes do have school gymnasiums. I would like to ask the Minister if he is willing to undertake a feasibility or engineering study to at least cost out this project. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we would certainly commit to looking at the options and meet with the community to talk about what we can do there, if it is feasible or viable to look at a multi-purpose hall or continue working with the youth centre or to even discuss what it would entail to put in a school gym. We certainly could commit to doing that. We will have our regional staff discuss this with the community. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do believe that I stand firm that it certainly is one of the communities or probably the only community that still doesn't have this facility. I would like to ask the Minister, will he provide the same recreational opportunities to the students of Nahanni Butte that others have in the Northwest Territories, and will the Minister commit to undertake a feasibility or engineering study to cost out this project in this fiscal year?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I certainly want to indicate to the Member that the department recognizes a need for recreation infrastructure, and we encourage recreation programs. We invest a lot of money into recreation programs across the North. Not every community has a gymnasium. The process for recreation facilities has to go through the capital planning process. It has to compete with water, sewer, solid waste, and all these other infrastructure needs across the Territories. The demand is high. We have had to cut and look at ways we spend money and reallocate. So it is very difficult for me to say yes, we can commit to putting a school gymnasium in the community of Nahanni Butte. We would like to have a good discussion. We would like to look at all the options that are available. We may not be able to do a gym, but we may be able to identify something else that the community would like to do. I have indicated that I would commit to looking at the options that are available to us, including the scoping out of what it would cost for a gymnasium and present that to the community. I think I have already made that commitment. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.