Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to say that the sale of rental units, I know there are some people in the Sahtu region that because of the high cost of those rental units, some really good people have a really hard time being motivated to work because it will come off of their cheques. To sell those houses to those people, it may be one way to have some pride and some ownership that they are putting good money down that will go into their houses. At the end of their 20 or 25 years, at least that house will belong to them.

My grandparents lived in one house for a long, long time. They were moved out of a little shack along the river. People in housing, not this government, told them to move into a house, and they moved from their shack into a house and they lived there for a long time. When they both passed away, that house reverted back to the Housing Corporation. It was very hard on our family because we felt that was our Granny's house. If housing could do something in terms of changing that around, that is what people need to look at, some ownership and some pride in their houses. If you could look at a way that you could move those types of units into someone's house and give some pride to our people through homeownership. We had that at one time but it was taken away. Now it is coming back again.

So I guess in terms of the dependency, I lived in a unit for a long time growing up in Tulita in a house that belonged to the Housing Corporation, and when we moved that was it. So the concept of ownership is growing, it is growing in the Sahtu. People have to get away from their dependency. They are finding out what it is like to be on their own and it is instilling pride into people in the Sahtu that there are professionals that are wanting to be in the region, they are looking for housing. We have to give a hand to our people in the communities, and units like that, it still burns me when I walk by that house in my hometown, and see that house that my grandmother and grandfather that sort of raised us and it belongs to the Housing Corporation and somebody else is now in there. Where is my grandmother's house, where is that lot she had? It is torn down and it is gone, there is nothing there for us. I would like to keep pushing this issue in hopes that one day we can have all people in the communities owning their own houses and becoming independent again. We crave that dependency, it is hard on us, and to move away from independence is going to be a tough job. It will be really tough, I know it, I have been there. Hopefully one day in the Sahtu, or wherever, we can have these units built in the Northwest Territories. I would like to see that.

I have always said to support the northern businesses and have these units built in the Northwest Territories, home-grown units. In the Sahtu we drive to Yellowknife because groceries here are cheaper, and cloths are cheaper, stuff is cheaper. It is really expensive in the Sahtu, and I can see the rationale on that, but also I would like to see the business, especially the northern businesses, being supported in our region. I hope that we can work out something like that, that there are some good facilities in the Northwest Territories that we can support these types of units and keep it in the North here. That is my comment to the Minister and his staff, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the Member has made a number of comments that I certainly agree with. We have to encourage homeownership in the communities. We have to try to look at stimulating a market in the community for rental units. We certainly agree with the concept of trying to encourage independence and homeownership. I think for the large part we can achieve that. We have to now put the tools in place to deal with the support for people that are interested, people that have employment, people that can afford to operate their own homes, to own the building that they are in if it is a public unit. If it just means helping somebody with access to bank financing, because of no credit rating or a poor credit rating, or low wages, it is something that we are totally committed to doing. Achieving independence in the communities by having their own homes is an important thing for families, and we would like to push that whole initiative forward.

The issue regarding Mr. Yakeleya's grandparents is something I can relate to. I've personally seen that firsthand. We have now put into place a new policy to deal with situations where we have long-time tenants of public housing units that are seniors and would like to purchase the house. We have a program in place that would allow them to do so, providing that they can prove that they can handle the operating costs of the unit, it is forgivable. Anybody over 70 we can look at a short term of forgiving the loan over a five-year period. So it is something that the seniors can take pride in, it is something that the seniors will call their own, and something that they can leave for their children or their grandchildren.

I also can relate to the comment about these market units, the intent or the recommendation that we should start looking at having something built in the North. I totally agree with that. I don't believe it is possible to do it this year, but for next year we want to see value-added units built here in the Northwest Territories so we can put a position for it for the committee to look at and talk about. It is something that we will target as part of our review at the end of this year. Once the units are up and set up, we will provide a report and we will also bring it forward to the committee along with what we would recommend on how to approach it for the next year. That is my response to Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Now I have Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Just a few comments. I can appreciate the concern the other Members had with regard to the recent market rental housing initiative, which is basically purchasing those units from down south. I have small communities, I have professionals that are in dire need of housing, to further sustain my communities. Today, I can say that I am supportive of that venture despite how it got done. It is addressing an immediate need, so I am in favour of that. When I saw that and I hear about it I said okay, this is something that I was actually going to bring up, but I am glad that it is in place.

The concerns of the other Members, I am going to have to say yes in the 2005 budget session. We are going to have to look at supporting our northern industries. I do

support this initiative. Some of the other things that I would like to address as well is that one of the things of prime importance when it comes to rental of our public housing units, the people are saying where their rent is geared to income and it fluctuates on a monthly basis is just not working for people, because people, like businesses, operate better when their expenses are fixed. With the monthly rates fluctuating because of bonuses, even because of bingo winnings, it just doesn't work for the people in my riding. I know that in the last Assembly there was some discussion about implementing a flat rent scale rate, and that is something I would be supportive of. I was wondering if the Minister could comment on that. Is there a move to address that in this Assembly? Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I think the Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes had raised this issue last week regarding the flat rent scale. It is not something we are considering right now. Our social housing program, or public housing program, is based, as the Member has indicated, on the household income, and it does require income verification every month because it does fluctuate. However, we can recognize that people can live with paying their rent at 30 percent of their income, compared to a flat rent scale where it would be based on the number of bedrooms or the number of rooms in the unit, it would not allow us to maintain it on a percentage of household income. In fact, it may cause the rent scale to go over, in excess of what is affordable by the client.

The other issue is that we are also mandated to provide suitable accommodation, which would mean so many bedrooms based on the number of people in the family. Going to a flat rent scale would only allow the people to rent based on what they can afford or what they are willing to pay. It would not require any restrictions, it would allow for many people to be bunked up in small units. It is an issue that we have moved away from. However, we keep all options open. As the declining rent scale causes us to look at what is available out there, we have this concept in mind. At this point we are not intending to move forward.

Thank you. Mr. McLeod, were you finished?

Yes.

Okay. Thank you. Under general comments, I have on my list Mr. Pokiak and Mr. Hawkins, but Mr. Allen has indicated that he would like to say something and he hasn't spoken yet under general comments for the Housing Corporation, so I am going to let Mr. Allen go next. Oh, you are not finished, I'm sorry. Mr. Menicoche, sorry.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am happy to hear from the Minister that it is not dead in the water, because I am certainly aware of the rigid structure as with the way the flat rent scale system would work, but, of course, there are always options and there is flexibility, they can improve that system. However, we can address that at another time if the Minister is willing or if the department can really look at it and provide some good options that would be affordable to our people out there.

I have a couple of other quick comments. There has been a lot of concern in my riding with regard to not so much the quantity of homes, but the quality and construction of it. A lot of homes have been built, and for whatever reason they are either incomplete or they require more attention. So what is going on is I know the department has to keep going back in there and doing minor repairs. It is something for the future. I am going to have to say that if the Minister is willing to look at his department and improve the construction monitoring of the homes, I can appreciate the difficulty of people building in the smaller communities, but there must be a way that construction can be monitored so that we don't have structural deficiencies later.

One other thing was, of course, I am sure the Minister is aware, but how do we approach the whole area of units for single people, even single parents? I will just leave that for the Minister to comment on. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche, and I do apologize for losing track of myself here. Mr. McLeod.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I am not completely sure if the Member is referring to units that were constructed in the recent past. Possibly the units that were allocated a while back that were called the HAP units. There was a requirement for the homeowner to do a portion of the unit themselves in terms of sweat equity. We have a number of units across the North that many people either didn't have the skills to do it, were reluctant to do it, or ignored that requirement, and it has resulted in a number of units that may not be up to standards. The program was around for a number of years, it has been quite some time since we moved away from that program. We now require inspections, but we are finding that there are a lot of units in the communities that are requiring upgrade because of not being maintained well, or not doing the required maintenance, or deferring maintenance, and it is resulting in some damage to their houses. This is something that we are looking at at this point, and it is part of our counselling process that people have to be made aware that they have to look after their units. They won't last if they don't.

In terms of inspections, we've heard the message loud and clear for some time that we have to ensure that the inspectors are doing their job and we will ensure that that happens. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Next on the list I have Mr. Allen.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I wasn't going to comment on the flat rent scale rate, but I kind of got dragged into the debate here, Madam Chair. If you really look at the cost effectiveness of housing in the Northwest Territories you really must look at your pro forma income statement, and talk about the social housing expenditures, and go back down into the financing sources, and talk about your LHO rent recoveries and the revenue. I think it has to be clearly advocated to the Minister and his officials that the decline in actuals on the rent recoveries, that certainly has to allow us, as Members of the Assembly, to point that out. With the number of houses you currently have and based on your rent recoveries based on your rent geared to income, must allow us to advocate to you that you really have to change your philosophy and your

policy. I don't beg to differ. I just want to go back to my Member's statement, Madam Chair, and I talk about having to being able to manage to make the transition from one economy to another. I'm going to leave it at that, because it's going to be an ongoing debate, I am sure, because we bring different philosophies to the table. So that's my philosophical statement.

What interests me even more, Madam Chair, on February 23rd there was a press lease by CMHC saying that finding down payments just got a lot easier. I'm going to refer to points here, because I'm just wondering if the ministry had looked at the number of options that had been announced to try to encourage homeownership through the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to enable many Canadians to move into affordable housing and homeownership. It talks about the down payment, and it says that they may get from any sources, such as...(inaudible)...incentives and borrowed funds, however borrowers will still have to prove their ability to meet their debt requirements in order to qualify for mortgage insurance. The mortgage insurance was raised last fall with the federal Minister, and I am just wondering if he had committed. I recall he made a commitment to cover the mortgage insurance for the Northwest Territories, and I'm just wondering if there was any follow-up to that with the federal counterparts.

Again, I believe that it's worth talking about the principles of economic freedom in the North. I think we need to really look at the investment portfolio, and I'm glad to see that the Minister had spoken about previous attempts to establish buyer/seller markets in the North, not only in tax-based but also non-tax-based communities, and allow the free market to dictate, because I think the individuals, from my analysis of your pro forma income statement, very few people now have the capability of moving to homeownership from the public housing portfolio. That's a concern I think we have from a fiscal perspective.

I'm going to concentrate on two elements here on page 2 of your statement, and that's the continued federal commitment to housing across the Northwest Territories. I'm wondering if you're looking at perhaps using this zero percent down payment as a mechanism to encourage that level of homeownership and homeownership investment. I also refer again on page 2 to your fourth point where you talk about to ensure that developing private housing market in non-market communities. I think that's probably one avenue you may want to address and see if there is a partnership with CMHC to come into invest in those non-market communities. Recognizing you also have some difficulty in trying to improve the markets in small non-tax-based communities, I'm pleased to see that you still have under your mandate and also under your policy and framework that you are promoting the sale of public housing to those who can afford it. I think that's the first step for first-time home buyers. In my many travels, as Tom would know and Jeff would know, it works very well in other jurisdictions in the small rural communities across Canada. So I am pleased to see that you had made reference to this in your comments on page 3.

I'm glad to see that the ongoing work is to make sure that those tenants who have stable employment have the capability of paying and are now intending to move into homeownership.

One area that has been of great concern across the North is the high cost of utilities: home heating and electrical power. As you know, the temperatures dip below normal and I am of the understanding from my constituents that some of their power bills have jumped 100 percent. On average, last year they say they were paying $130 a month, for January and February it jumped to $260. Another issue is the heating fuel. They were saying some of the home heating costs went from an average of $240 up to about $454, and that's something we should look at again.

So in the overall context, I'm pleased to see the Minister has addressed several key points to promote homeownership, but on the other hand I think it still remains a question of whether at some point in the next several weeks or months the NWT Housing Corporation will look at other mechanisms to deal with what is really important in the context of their pro forma income statement, and the fact that social housing expenditures continue to rise and the LHO recoveries remain relatively low on a percentage basis. So I will leave that, Madam Chair, as a question I would like the Minister to respond to. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Allen. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the Member is quite correct; that we have to start looking around for what is available in terms of options, and we have to start seriously looking at ways to increase our revenues if we are planning to maintain our stock.

The flat rent scenario would certainly allow us to increase our revenues as it is based on the number of rooms within the dwelling, and the rent is based on the number of rooms. However, our concern is that it may allow for the increase of the rental payments of rent charged to increase over and above the 30 percent household income threshold that we've set, and it would create a real hardship for the lower income families and the larger families, and it would also cause concern and complications for seniors.

Mr. Allen also referred to the mortgage insurance. There has been no response on this issue. We have had correspondence with the federal Minister, Andy Scott. We have not been able to come to any type of conclusion on this mortgage insurance, we will continue to follow it up. I also agree with Mr. Allen that the market economy should be dealing with a lot of the issues that we are currently facing. However, in the smaller communities when it comes to market units available for rent, the concept of supply and demand is not taking place. We are not seeing a lot of investment in the area of market housing for rental units. We are probably for the most part at zero vacancy for a lot of these communities.

I also believe Mr. Allen referred to the zero down payment program introduced by the CMHC. It's a program that is new. It is not in place yet. It will come into effect April 1st, 2004, and although it's offered by CMHC it is administered through financial institutions such as banks. I don't know if we have a very big part of a very big role in this whole concept. To access a program, a client or an applicant has to deal with a bank or another financial institution. The requirements to obtain this program for a mortgage with no down payment, an applicant must have a number of things. First, they must have a strong credit rating and income sufficient to cover monthly payments. A CMHC

premium of 3.4 percent is added to the mortgage and calculated into the monthly rent. This program is only intended to be used on fixed-rate mortgages because other programs with a variable rate require 10 percent down. So this program is for fixed-rate mortgages and the banks and other financial institutions do have the information. We have, in response to this program, adjusted our EDAP scales to accommodate this program and it will be in place April 1st.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Next on the list I have Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. McLeod.

Madam Chair, I'll ask Mr. Anderson to respond to that question.

Mr. Anderson.