There's a motion on the floor. To the motion. Mr. Braden.

Mr. Chairman, I have some comments at some length to this issue in committee already. I won't belabour the point. I have appreciated the information that the Minister and his staff have offered, but it is not substantive enough for me to avoid making this motion. I think it is very significant that as we engage again on a coordination activity related to a pipeline, that we start off with the balance of social and economic and regulatory priorities here. We just aren't doing that. The Minister made it clear that we are using available funds within our supplementary reserve to help get this started. If we are going to put that kind of priority on it, then we should give priority to the social agenda as well.

Mr. Chairman, I would just like to read, if I could, from a document that is already before this assembly, it's called A Non-Renewable Resource Development Strategy for

the Northwest Territories, October of 2000; what was known at the time as the NRRDS strategy.

Page 31, strategy number nine, "Mitigating social impacts of development." It says, "History has shown that during a period of rapid development, the demands of entering the wage economy and the affluence associated with employment and work rotations can aggravate existing problems such as alcohol and drug abuse, child neglect and abuse, sexually transmitted diseases, spousal abuse and suicide. Given that the current health and social services system is operating at the limits of its capacity" -- remember, Mr. Chairman, this was written almost four years -- "the effects from resource developments are likely to have on the social safety net in the NWT are expected to be profound. Social indicators of development retract by the GNWT and others in communities affected by the Beaufort-Delta oil and gas development. So the 1970s, the construction of the Norman Wells to Zama pipeline and the Ekati Mine. Based on these experiences, increased pressures are expected to arise from day care needs, spousal assault and marriage counselling, child protection and foster care, money management and counselling, mental health services, as well as addictions treatment and counselling.

Mr. Chairman, these are just excerpts from a study done four years ago. It is not acceptable for the government to say we are going to start a major coordinating office and not have this kind of profile and this kind of service attached to it right from the get-go and that is why I am moving this motion, and I hope that I can see some engagement in this from my colleagues as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am quite happy that Mr. Braden has moved this motion. I plan on supporting it, but I will start my comments off on the fact that I do believe this is an important initiative by this government. However, seeing as we have a $1 billion budget that we just passed and by our estimates we are currently spending about $2.51 million on PYs and activities that are directly associated with the pipeline development through various departments of this government, I find it very hard to swallow that this government couldn't have gone out to the various departments, coordinated some positions and some activities into this new pipeline office and not had to come back to this assembly for $850,000. I have a great deal of difficulty with that. I know how important this initiative is for some of my colleagues and some of the ridings that they represent and I certainly wouldn't want to stand in the way of this happening, but Mr. Braden has some good points. I don't think the government has taken the full picture of this office and what it should be and what it was meant to be and try to coordinate some of the aspects of that and certainly the social side of things seems to be left out of the equation, left to maybe some other departments such as ECE or MACA, maybe even Health. Where is the coordination? I don't think the full government picture was looked at prior to developing this office.

As I mentioned, the Department of RWED has, I believe, close to 600 employees, maybe even more. I know some of them are tasked currently with pipeline. I know the Mackenzie Valley development section there has four PYs. What is going to happen to those PYs? Where are they going to go? This government currently spends over $2 million. I just don't see how you can, in good conscious, come back here looking for another $850,000 when I believe we have the expertise, we have the personnel in place through various government departments to effectively -- and I mean effectively -- carry out this initiative without having to come back here for $850,000. So I am going to support the motion and I would task the government with maybe doing some more homework on this and more coordination. Quite honestly, Mr. Chairman, I don't think that's all been done. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to say that I will not be supporting this motion. I would like to thank the Minister of RWED for bringing this supplementary appropriation forward and for the response of the Cabinet in their consideration of the items that they considered of high enough priority to make it into this supp bill. I was certainly one of the ones who raised the issue on the floor of this House that when we look at the coordinated effort taken by the federal government that I did not want to see our government do anything less than their absolute best in terms of ensuring that we were prepared for development of the magnitude of the Mackenzie Valley gas pipeline. So I am not entirely understanding of the position that to somehow delete this would enhance our ability as a government to respond to the issues that may come up. I again would just like to say that I think this is the right direction. As a result of our concerns that have been raised with the Minister, there's also been the joint committee that's been formed, three Cabinet Ministers, three Regular Members, to work on this so that priority for this subject has also been demonstrated there. I see this initiative going hand in hand with that response. I support this item in the supp, so will not be supporting this motion. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is our government's first attempt at getting out in front of this file. We generally understand and recognize that we are likely to see a filing by the proponents this summer, likely not in the fall, not next spring but this summer. I can state categorically that we are not ready for it. I hear the Members' concerns. I hear Mr. Ramsay's question about where the coordination is. As a government, we are not out in front of this with a coordinated approach to dealing with this pipeline and oil and gas development in the valley. That's why we need this office. If you look at the mandate of the Mackenzie Valley pipeline office, and I will reiterate the mandate here for Members: "To coordinate and facilitate government-wide planning and results reporting on all GNWT activities." Those include the activities of social program departments. It's also to provide support and advice in order to facilitate high level strategic planning of both the deputy ministers' Pipeline Steering Committee, and I will reiterate that the deputy ministers of social program departments were involved in the organizational development of this office and also the joint Cabinet and AOC Pipeline Planning Committee, this joint body that we have that is going to provide strategic advice in how to cope with all issues related to the development of this pipeline, including social issues, and provide us advice as a government on how to mitigate

some of the social impacts that we'll see from this development. It will also liaise at a senior government level with industry, with the federal government offices, the pipeline readiness office, the Northern Gas Secretariat, with NWT communities and with aboriginal governments. It will have an external and internal information communication management responsibility and it will coordinate, Mr. Chairman, the negotiation of nine separate impacts and benefit agreements with the Producers Group and lead the development of these mandates.

If you take a look at the positions, one of the positions is coordinator of interdepartmental planning. That's not coordinator of economic development department planning. It's coordinator of interdepartmental planning for the GNWT. Will ECE and Health be involved? Yes. It's important that we are on the same page and that we understand how GNWT programs are being developed and being delivered and that this is done in a cohesive and coordinated manner.

Another one of the positions is an agreement specialist. This person will be responsible for providing technical advice and doing a lot of work on socioeconomic agreement development stuff. What we are talking about here are training opportunities, business opportunities, jobs. We've been through this. I think we all recognize exactly how important the socioeconomic agreements are to us in terms of the diamond mines. To ignore this aspect of this pipeline project and to suggest that we don't need this office and we don't need anybody to coordinate and to work on these agreements I think is short sighted, Mr. Chairman.

We currently have two-and-a-half positions in this government. We have an ADM of Mackenzie Valley pipeline, we have a senior advisor and we have a half-time executive secretary to try to coordinate all of our government programs and services and try to see if we can't find our way through the regulatory process and support communities and support our other aboriginal government projects in being ready for this development. This is a $7.6 billion project coming and we have two-and-a-half positions in terms of getting the anchor fields ready for that pipeline.

So, yes, we are talking about $850,000 here. Yes, we are engaging in austerity measures in many other aspects of what we do as a government, but this is critical, Mr. Chairman. We have to spend this money, I would suggest. I hear the Members asking for us to find this internally. We simply can't. I would urge Members to give that serious consideration when we are thinking about this motion. We are faced with a filing this summer and we are not ready. I think when the Members ask where is the coordination, what we are telling you is that at this point we are not coordinated as a government and we need some resources in order to do that and this is what we are working toward. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bell. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, for one, will not be supporting the motion just because one of the first things I did when I came to this House was say we aren't doing anything about development that's coming, especially when it comes to the arctic gas pipeline. So I believe I had a hand in creating this. I think it's a good expenditure and it's the right way to head and the way we are supposed to head. With that alone, I will be voting against this motion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would have to agree with a lot of points that the Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development just stated. This office is definitely long overdue. This government has probably been behind the eight ball as far as developing a coordinated approach to assessing resource impact development in the Mackenzie Valley area. Where this office is going to be situated is still undetermined, but if it does go out into one of the regions, I think that would probably suit everybody better than being here in Yellowknife. I think the Minister of RWED has definitely taken the right approach in saying it has integrated the social aspects of pipeline development into the plan to develop this office. Being a Member of the joint Cabinet/AOC Pipeline Committee, we met last week to discuss this option. I think it's one of the few supplementary appropriations that I have to totally agree with. Therefore, I will not be supporting this motion either, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I want to say that when I was in Edmonton for the oil and gas symposium, I mentioned to the honourable Minister Bell that it would be nice to have the territorial government on a panel and show some leadership. It's good to have a panel that people could ask questions to our government in terms of our leadership in terms of oil and gas development that's happening in the Northwest Territories. We are behind the eight ball and we need some leadership from our government here. The communities are asking me what is the territorial government doing about oil and gas. There is a lot of confusion and we aren't really showing any leadership at all. I agree with Mr. Braden about the social impacts because that's a big concern and I don't think anyone has really addressed it yet. We talk about it, but where do we go, to our chiefs, presidents and mayors? Who is really coordinating it? There is Health, Education, Justice and I understand maybe through the regulatory hearing for the Mackenzie Valley oil and gas project, there might be an avenue there for us to listen to the social impacts. I think we have a lot of catching up to do and I am going to speak in support of this motion. I am going to sit on the planning committee. I think it's a good investment. This government stands to make a lot of dollars in terms of the Mackenzie Valley gas pipeline going through. I think it's a good investment. I will support that. We are looking for some leadership in our communities. It's long overdue. I think this should have been done in the 14th Assembly. Let's go with it. It's a good investment. I am trusting that the Minister has sought out many facts and opinions from the other side and will put something together for us to look at. I would definitely like to see something in the Sahtu because we have a direct impact, but that's not the point. The point is let's get this organization set up. We've got 2.5 people just to start it. That's pitiful. That's pitiful when you say that for a major resource development. It's a crying shame on this government here.

In terms of a major development coming through the Mackenzie Valley and the amount of dollars that's going to be coming through out of this and the impacts it's going to have on all the people in the communities, with 2.5 people for the whole Northwest Territories, it's long overdue. It's a real crying shame, Mr. Chairman, that something like this has taken this long. I think we are taking a good leap. We can use the blame game and blame the federal government. We have to put some money where people are asking. Hopefully it's coordinated well within the regions and communities that are directly impacted by that pipeline. It's coming through and they are going to be impacted. I hope that this office is going to answer those concerns of the people in the communities. If not, then we are going to have some tough answers to give to our people. I am hoping that we get this off the ground, so we can open up shop and get to work. The day you talk longer...

So I am not going to support the motion. I am going to support what they have put forward in terms of the supplementary, Mr. Chairman. Mahsi, Mr. Chairman.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion.

At this time, I would like to identify Mr. Ramsay one more time.

You're a good chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will keep this brief. I know the hour is getting late. I certainly don't want anybody to think that I am trying to stand in the way of this happening. It's just the issue that I have is how it's being paid for. That's the issue here. There are some real alarms going off when the Minister says that there is going to be some filing taking place this summer and we are not ready for it. If you look at the PYs this government has in place, there are 13.5 PYs that are dedicated to the pipeline issue/resource development. We also have this Mackenzie Valley development unit. So what have we been spending our money on for the past five years? What have we gotten for that investment of money and time? Quite honestly, I don't think we have gotten anything or anywhere. It is a crying shame, as Mr. Yakeleya said, that we are here today to try to hammer out a $850,000 supp to try to get this office up and running. To me it's really pathetic. I don't know who is to blame. Maybe it's the last government. I am not quite sure. But at least we are doing something now. We are going to set this office up and get something done. What I don't want to see lost in all of this is the coordination. I still think there are a lot of PYs out there government-wide. If the government wants, they should put their money where their mouth is, get the PYs from the departments and put them into this office so we can have a coordinated approach to this thing and we are not off all doing who knows what, this department doing this and the Mackenzie Valley office won't know what they are doing and people are going in different directions. I think until we get that full coordination, it has to happen. So I am not going to stand in the way, but I do support the motion because I disagree with the way we are paying for this. Given the fact that we have $1 billion budget, I think the government certainly has the ability to go in house and find this $850,000 and it's a travesty that they come back here looking for $850,000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be very brief. I want to address a couple of things that we brought forward. Mrs. Groenewegen made a very good point. What I am I doing here is moving that we just eliminate a program. If I hadn't made it clear before, I will do so now. I indeed support the need for coordination. The kind of thing that is proposed here is very necessary. The point I am trying to make is we are not getting off to the right start. We are way off balance here because the social impacts are not being coordinated at the same time. They are obviously going to be coming in playing second fiddle kind of half-baked. I am really disappointed in that.

The only tool that I have or the committee has at this point is to move to delete an item. We cannot defer it, we cannot amend it, shave it or add to it. Deleting something is the only way I can send a signal that I am unhappy with something. That is why the motion is here. I fully anticipate, Mr. Chairman, that the government is going to go ahead with this and maybe come back in the fall with yet another supp that will help to finance the social side of the agenda and then I will have something that I just might be able to speak in support of. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, colleagues, in engaging in this discussion.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is defeated.

---Defeated

Thank you. Page 11, Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, operation expenditures, corporate management, not previously authorized, $850,000.