Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The motion is on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I raise and move the motion basically because I know there was some indication given in the House earlier in the week, from the Minister, that there are alternatives and options being looked into as we speak, hopefully, to how we can address the remote communities that are going to be feeling the brunt of this Beverage Container Program.

I think the motion is not to say that the recovery program is not a good thing. I fully support the program itself, but I just don't see the fairness in the program to the more remote communities in the NWT that are without licensed depots.

Basically, it is unfair, Mr. Speaker, from my point of view, because the approximately 14 communities that are going to be paying this extra beverage container cost are communities that already have higher costs for goods and services overall. They basically have a lot of lower income families and have high unemployment rates with respect to a lot of the regional centres in the NWT. So I feel this motion represents our intention to make this government a little more responsive to a lot of these obstacles that the small communities are faced with, one being just the ability to survive, Mr. Speaker. A lot of these communities struggle just making sure that there is enough food on the table, just enough fuel in the tank to keep the furnace going, making sure that they have enough money to pay the power bills. These are just some of the basic essentials that residents in these communities are faced with every day.

Now we want them to pay more for other things, like orange juice and apple juice, to which they already pay more anyway, and now we want to add an extra 10 or 15 cents to the cost, for which a lot of the residents are never going to receive a refund, or are not going to receive a refund in any specific amount of time. It might be months before they can get to a regional depot. It might be a year. A lot of them won't even see a refund, Mr. Speaker.

I am just raising this motion basically because of the issue of fairness. If we are going to be fair, we cannot treat only

76 percent of our population fairly, Mr. Speaker. We have to treat 100 percent of our population fairly. I just think that the beverage container program, right now, without any options or alternatives to these remote centres, is not displaying any intent for fairness on our behalf. I think that if this government comes up with some alternative solutions within the next few days, or the next couple of weeks for retailers, I know there are a lot of options out there that we discussed in AOC, also, that we presented to the Minister. Hopefully, he will take up a lot of those good ideas and put them into a motion before this program rolls out.

With that, Mr. Speaker, just in summary, I just think that, if we are talking about fairness and equitability, let's be fair to the smallest centres in the NWT which are going to bear the bigger brunt of this program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. To the motion. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am going to be supporting the motion that is before us today, for a variety of reasons. I agree with my colleague from Tu Nedhe, that the way the department has the program set up to date, is absolutely unfair to the smaller communities; communities where spending $11 for a jug of juice is not uncommon. I have seen it myself when I have been to some of the smaller communities. To put the burden back on them to help pay for this program, I think is completely unfair.

I think my predecessor in this House, the former Speaker and now the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories, had envisioned this program at least 10 or 12 years ago. The department had been working on this program now for at least five years. Why, one week before the program is supposed to roll out, are we stranded here? Some of the smaller communities have no idea when, or who, is going to be responsible for the program in their communities. I think it is completely unfair. I think before you go forward with a plan like this, you have to know all of the variables. Right now, Mr. Speaker, we don't know what the variables are. We don't know who is going to be delivering the program in the communities that don't have depots. We don't know what it is going to cost. We don't know what the volume of recyclables is going to be in the communities that don't have depots. There are just too many unanswered questions, Mr. Speaker, in my mind, to allow this plan to go forward.

I will be the first one to stand up here and say I support this program. I really do. I know the Minister knows I support it, and other Members in the House know I support the program. I support recycling. It will make sense in some of our communities, Mr. Speaker, but it definitely doesn't make sense to go forward with this without the full comprehensive plan of who is going to do what in each community, and what it is going to cost. That is about all I have to say for this, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. To the motion. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak briefly in support of this motion, Mr. Speaker. This item was a high priority item in the last Assembly. The legislation was passed, but it has been many years in the making to get the regulations in place and this program up and running. I am actually quite excited that we are going to see this program get started on November 1st, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to make it clear that I am in favour of the recycling program, and I know that many of the Yellowknife residents, especially those who go away to school and have any length of time living in the South, the first thing they notice when they move back is the fact that we do not have a recycling program in the North.

Mr. Speaker, I do understand that they are having some problems with this program, not only the length it took to get the regulatory process regulations written up, but I know that some members in my constituency are concerned about the fact that the fees charged will be different for types of bottles or cans. By the time we got to know the details of that, I realized it was too late to change it. I was able to inquire about other processes involved in getting the cleanup, and hygiene issues, and such. I was able to get satisfactory answers out of the Department of Environment and Natural Resources.

The reason I am supporting this motion is the fact that I believe this is a way to get the program up and running on November 1st, but exempting those communities...Twenty percent of the communities are not going to have a depot. I want to make it clear, Mr. Speaker, that I do support the program to go ahead on November 1st in communities where they have these depots, like Yellowknife and many other places. Eighty percent of the population live in the Territories where there will be depot service available, but I have to insist that communities where there are no depots, it is just not fair for the government to be collecting fees if they have nowhere to take the bottles and cans to, and get the money back.

Mr. Speaker, I believe there is a role for the government to play. The government has to step in and spend some money to make sure that there are depots available. I am going to leave it up to the Minister to consider all options available. I understand that there is a possibility of using the ENR office, and where there are no ENR officers in some communities, maybe they could use other government employees to make sure that the program gets off the ground.

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to state, before I finish speaking, that I am speaking to this motion and I am hoping that, once this gets going, years down the road, we will look back at this program as being something that was good that we did.

I would really encourage the schools all over the Territories to get involved and set up a program where they could earn some money and do a really good thing of cleaning up our environment. Mr. Speaker, I remember hearing in communities one time that, if it is too...I think, even in Yellowknife where people go out to the bush a lot, when they are going fishing, or hunting, or whatever, we do bring a lot of stuff out there. I am hoping that we will have a program that gives sufficient incentive for people to

pick up those empty bottles and cans from out-of-reach places, and this program will encourage all of us to be more environmentally conscious and environmentally friendly. I think those are the comments that I want to make. For that reason, I am speaking in favour of the motion, and speaking in favour of the program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the motion. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will be supporting this motion. Simply put, this motion that we put forward shows a progressive response, because this motion speaks about fairness. How does this government think it is fair that the small communities suffer the burden that they have to carry what they can't go cash in? We have this advertisement saying that there is cash in the trash. There is no cash in their trash. It is just cash in the government's pockets, so it is cashless trash. It is tasteless trash, too. I don't think it is fair.

This motion does not restrict any community that can set up a depot. I would like to see the government, today, stand up, and maybe the good Minister of ENR will stand up and say, after today, I will pass an initiative to make sure that there is at least one government office in every darn community that will accept these containers at least once a month.

I want him to speak to this motion today. Let's hear him today. Let's hear it today that he passes an initiative immediately that this will truly be the way we will deal with this.

But there is no true plan about the 20 percent of those communities. Now we are putting an unreasonable burden on those communities for no reason at all. Nobody is against recycling here. I didn't hear one single person say recycling is bad. I didn't hear one single person say no one wants to participate in recycling. The fact is, if big cities and small towns across Canada can do it, then we can do it, too. But it is unfair, again, to put a burden on someone, in who knows what community, who can't cash in these cans. It is not fair at all. It is about equity, Mr. Speaker. The bottom line is, this does not stop communities like Yellowknife to hold a depot, or whatever regional centre, to have these things. This is a progressive position that talks about fairness. That is all. We are not about putting burdens on people. So instead of moving at the speed of government, as I say, which is pretty slow some days, I think we need to move quickly on this decision that affects the little people, the real people out there who can't truly turn their trash into cash, as the Minister likes to say. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. To the motion. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Yes, Mr. Speaker. I am certainly speaking in favour of this motion, principally for the reason that my colleagues have already outlined. That is one of fairness. The government says it will achieve enough depots, and enough coverage, that 80 percent of the population of the NWT will have access to the complete service. That is terrific. It is the 20 percent out there who are really disadvantaged that I really feel a strong duty to stand up for.

Mr. Speaker, the program, as we originally worked it in the previous Assembly and in this one, and that the folks in the various departments, was a good one. Now there are issues about not being able to fully implement it on time. I am ready to live with some extensions to that time so that we are able to get it right in those communities that haven't yet been able to set up a depot.

Let's stick with the plan. The Minister has guaranteed us that he is going to make sure that a depot is opened. I believe his words of the other day were something to the effect that "I have just sent a note up telling our folks to get ready. We are now in the recycling business." That is not the kind of alternative that I find acceptable, Mr. Speaker. The people with the ITI staff around the Northwest Territories already have important jobs to do. The original design, to get this kind of task handled by someone in the community, is the right way to go. Let's stick with that one and make it happen, even if it takes yet more time. The question of fairness has got to be addressed to the folks in that community. They must not be charged this fee until they have the opportunity to cash the bottles in, as I have, in Yellowknife, or someone in many of the larger centres, that same opportunity. As Mr. Villeneuve said, it must be available to 100 percent of the people of the NWT.

Mr. Speaker, I think there is going to be a temptation to press for the government to interpret this as an excuse to abandon the whole program, or defer the whole thing, until we can get it 100 percent right. That will not be accepted. I will not take on that kind of responsibility. We have worked very hard. We have invested a lot. Contracts are signed. Communities have expectations, where depots are now in place. Continue the rollout. Stick with the plan. Work with those communities that don't yet have a depot to put something in place, and will be acceptable, and will be sustainable, too, Mr. Speaker. So those are the conditions that I see prevalent here. Let's get going with this step where we are so far behind just about all the rest of Canada in living up to this pretty easy, and pretty straightforward, way of doing something to make a difference in our environment. We can, and should, proceed with what we have in place. Let's just make sure that it's fairly, and equitably, applied. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the motion. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am speaking against this motion. I think we cannot wait any longer to get going with this program. I represent a community where the people are geared up and ready to go. I do understand the difficulties of trying to do a partial implementation on this. There are all kinds of reasons why a partial implementation, only in the centres that have depots, is not practical. The Minister has said that he is going to have a mechanism in place in every community for the start of the program, so let's hold his feet to the fire. Let's let it go, and then watch him figure it out. He has made the commitment here in the House, so now we will let him do the dance. But I think that to try to defer this or postpone this...This is about 20 years past due now.

---Applause

To do anything that is going to defer it now...Now listen, the folks in the small communities where this is going to add something to their grocery bill, if it adds to the grocery bill the amount of the deposit on the bottles, if they can't immediately get their money back, then there is still cash in the trash. They just might not get it this instant. Maybe it is slightly deferred. Maybe it is a community organization that decides to, collectively, gather all of their recyclable beverage containers, and it comes back in a lump sum. There are lots of empty barges coming back right down the Mackenzie Valley every year that can bring all the containers back to Hay River for recycling. There is going to be a depot in Hay River. They can come right back down the river. I don't know how they are going to do it, but I cannot support anything that is going to see any deferral of this. It is long past overdue. Let's get on with it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. To the motion. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, to this motion, I have stated on the record that I believe it is the right action. It is the wrong time for this government. We are having some resistance from some of the Members here. I believe in the recycling business, Mr. Speaker. It is going to be another six days before this program is going to be implemented officially in the Northwest Territories. In six days from now, we will re-evaluate or reassign officers in our communities who have officers in our communities a new role, garbage collectors.

---Laughter

They are going to be paying out the money to the people. Some of the communities are not equipped to have the recycle facilities to implement this program. It is six days. Do you know how much work we get done in six days here? Imagine the communities. In some of these communities, it is going to create a lot of confusion for the ENR officers and for the communities. In some of these communities English is not a first language. They have to explain this in Slavey, Gwich'in or Tlicho. It is easy for larger centres where the primary language is English. They can understand, and they can do the program. It is easy for them. They don't have to translate into...It is not confusing. They have a high cost of living in those small communities. We know what it is going to cost in the small communities. We know the prices we pay.

I think it is going to be a lot of confusion. Twenty-five percent of the population is left out. Eight communities are going to be approved to have these facilities. Twenty-three communities are not going to have these facilities. With 33 communities in the Northwest Territories, 23 communities are not going to have it, and only eight are going to be approved for this program here. That is a high number. Mr. Speaker, some of these communities are being penalized because we are not on the highway system, or don't have access to highways. It may be true, I am not too sure, but a commitment has been made already to previous communities about having this program. Good for them. Let them go for it. Let them do the program. The motion reads, "...delay implementation of the Beverage Container Recovery Program in every community without an approved depot until such time as a local depot is available." It says "delay." It doesn't mean stop it. Delay it, and get them in place. There are communities already in places like Yellowknife or Hay River or other places, I am not too sure. They are all set to go. Some of those communities don't even have a facility. They don't even understand this program. They will be penalized for the containers they buy for their children or themselves.

Mr. Speaker, it says "delay." It doesn't say "stop." I support this in the principle of what the Minister is bringing forward.

I do support him. But then he is blanketing everybody on this whole issue here, which is not fair for the people in the small communities. So, Mr. Speaker, until our small communities are ready, and aboriginal people and elders can understand it, because lots of things come in our community and put on pressure. This is another added cost that they have to be burdened with, and then put it properly into place. I would like to see that type of approach by this Minister. I do believe the Minister when he says he will work on certain things like interim measures. There is no doubt. The Minister has made some good things happen in the Northwest Territories under his leadership. I think he will do this, also, in this program. It is really hard for me to think in six days how it is going to get done, or how it is going to roll out, so I am asking for that grace time. I wanted to ask, Mr. Speaker, if I could ask for a recorded vote on this motion, to let the people know how we approach this.

Mr. Speaker, in closing, I want to say I support this. It is not to stop the recycling program in the Northwest Territories. It is maybe more to give voice to the communities that don't have a say in this program that is going to affect their life. It is just to give a voice to them. I will leave it at that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I, too, will be supporting this motion. The only reason for that being, Mr. Speaker, is that no one in my riding has been calling me up, or sending me any kind of indication that they support the implementation of this container program, but I have been getting inquiries, Mr. Speaker, that the time is not right to implement this. That is why I am fundamentally opposed to getting this beverage container program in place. Failing to stop it outright, Mr. Speaker, I am in favour of delaying and deferring the progress in the communities that don't have it. I know that it is great legislation. It is a good thing, Mr. Speaker. But what is going to happen to everybody within the smaller communities that have more of an impact? The average family will be paying an extra $10 a week. That is $520 a year, Mr. Speaker. There is something fundamentally wrong with that when they are not going to have equal opportunity to recover all their costs, Mr. Speaker.

At any rate, I think that the best I would estimate is that any family would recover probably up to 75 percent of the extra costs that they are giving to our government. That is something wrong there, too, Mr. Speaker. We are paying the government. There are other ways of doing it too. We call it taxation, Mr. Speaker. We are actually taxing our residents unfairly, I believe, Mr. Speaker. I also believe that, yes, we are so far behind our southern counterparts in terms of recycling our papers, our plastics, and our glass. It is something that the big centres and their people

deserve, Mr. Speaker. They deserve to have a place to bring all their glass, papers, and plastics, and to get rid of it, and to save. In fact, Mr. Speaker, I was thinking in terms of this legislation, it turns out that Fort Simpson -- I am proud to say -- will be considered a big centre in terms of this legislation.

So it is something that can work there. I will be happy to see the day where we are recycling paper, glass, and plastics, in Fort Simpson, where people do have three bins in their household, and are making a conscious effort. Children love it. All families love it. But it is just not going to work in the smaller communities; not today, Mr. Speaker. That is all that this motion asks, is telling government, look, there is something wrong here. Can you reconsider it? Have a good look at it and come up with something better for the smaller communities. There are lots of opportunities to examine it, if we can just take that time, Mr. Speaker, because there are lots of examples in the rural communities in other jurisdictions. In the provinces, they have many small communities like we do, and they do have a good green project. They do have a good recycling program. How does theirs work? I don't know. That is something that the government should have a really good look at. At first glance, Mr. Speaker, it is not going to work for our communities. That is why I support this motion. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. To the motion. The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Pokiak.

I, too, will support the motion as presented today. Mr. Speaker, I agree with the intent of the program, but, again, there are some drawbacks with that. The people in Tuktoyaktuk, right now, do have a small program. It has been going since probably late September. Right now, they are just volunteering. In the Hamlet of Tuktoyaktuk, one person is picking up all the empty bottles, et cetera, and are storing them away. If you take a look at Sachs Harbour, Holman and Paulatuk, at the present time, there is really nothing there that they can go to. I just got a call yesterday from Sachs Harbour, asking, come November 1st, where can I get my refund? That happens. So I really believe that, like my colleague from the Sahtu said, all we are saying is to delay the implementation of the program. Mr. Speaker, I think that is all we are asking. So I will support this motion. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. To the motion. The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. McLeod.