Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, I'm not really sure what starving stability is or isn't.

---Laughter

But, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the issue of multi-year funding, our government has and continues to negotiate for multi-year funding with non-government organizations. We have done that, we're doing it and we'll continue to do that. Mr. Speaker, I have to say though that every multi-year funding agreement is subject to the appropriation being passed in this House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Final supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a heavy booklet here that's double sided. There are 40 line items a page and there are about 10 pages here of groups that we make go through hoops and wringers every year to sign up for their funding, and they only get the phone call at the 11th hour on year-to-year funding. They have to do proposal after proposal every year. This creates instability and they can't hire workers. My question for the Premier is will he look at addressing the problem with multi-year funding, as outlined in the social agenda tabled in this House in June of 2002, and address this problem immediately? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Premier, Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, even if non-government organizations have multi-year funding agreements, they still have to annually account for the money that has been given to them. We still have the right and responsibility to change the mandate or change the contract that we may have with them. Mr. Speaker, this House votes the budget every year. We can't have multi-year agreements that go beyond the authority of this House. So, Mr. Speaker, they will continue to have to account for the money. If some NGOs are frustrated because they are applying for money every year, then they should talk to the appropriate Minister about negotiating a multi-year funding agreement so they don't have to put in a new application every time. But they will have to account for their money each year, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I want to direct my questions to the Minister of Justice with respect to the remand centre and the Dene K'onia closure and the proposed changes that the Justice department is going to be undertaking come April 1st. Many of these changes are going to be directly affecting my constituents, which utilize many of the services that are offered south of the lake today. I just want to point the Minister's attention to one of the policies, in Justice establishment policy 82, where the mandate clearly states that shall carry out in a manner, which respects community and aboriginal values and encourages communities to assume increasing responsibilities. That's a mandate that's stated right in the Justice establishment policy, Mr. Speaker.

On top of that, there are a couple of principles that should be noted also. Principle number four, an effective justice system is one that is sanctioned by the community it serves. Principle number five, community involvement can lead to the development of a justice system, which is accepted by the communities it services, which meets the needs and aspirations of the community it serves, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to ask the Minister how is this department's proposed changes in the upcoming fiscal year, if it doesn't contradict, blatantly contradict these principles and the mandate of the Justice department establishment policies, how can the Justice Minister say that it's right? Tell me. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. The honourable Minister of Justice, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This government stands committed to regional involvement with communities or regional and community involvement in the justice process, and that's why we have community

justice committees. That's why we're adding funding for the community justice committees to be involved in justice. We are also committed because we support the courts to travel to each and every community to conduct the courts as they are necessary.

Mr. Speaker, when we're talking about Dene K'onia, I don't disagree that we have tremendous programming and tremendous staff resources there, but, Mr. Speaker, in the last few weeks we've had one, sometimes two young inmates from south of the lake. Spending $1.5 million a year for that number of inmates is not a good expenditure of taxpayer dollars. We can't afford to keep two facilities in operation in the Northwest Territories with the numbers of people that we have in custody. So we have to take a look at rationalizing that expenditure somehow.

Very few people from any single community south of the lake are housed in the remand facility in Hay River. This doesn't mean that if somebody is sentenced to jail from that region that they wouldn't wind up in the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre, but the average length of time in remand is 31 days. So after that period of time, the inmate would likely be housed in a facility that is close to their family and relatives. But again, it's a matter of saving money. That's $400,000, more or less, that we can save, plus or minus $5,000 or $10,000 we think. That's still a significant amount of money. So between the two, we propose savings of $2 million and that isn't something that is easy to ignore. Those are big savings and if we actually do have the money for that kind of expenditure, then we should take a look at where that fits into the priorities of Members of this House and priorities of government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think one of the priorities of this government is servicing and good justice for our youth, Mr. Speaker. Just one point on the community justice committees. I know that this government has cut a lot of community justice coordinator positions also, with this new rolling out of this new fiscal responsibility. I just wanted to make the Minister aware that the many years that, for instance, the Dene K'onia has been in operation, when they have had 30 to 40 kids in their custody, with a $2.2 million budget, they still managed to come way under budget. If that isn't efficient or effective work, I don't know what is.

The government organization policy also states that equitable distribution of socioeconomic employment benefits of government activity, throughout the Northwest Territories, through decentralization, will permit the organizations to provide programs and services effectively.

Mr. Speaker, I don't know how effective a program can get if you are...Through the last five years, the program has saved well over $3 million in effective budgeting. How can the Minister say that this is not an effective and efficient organization? I just want him to point...

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve, I heard a question there. We will let the Minister answer.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I never, at any time, said that the facility was not being run effectively and efficiently. What I did say was that if we are going to have the number of young people that we have in custody, which is a very small number, we can't afford to operate two facilities. It doesn't matter how effectively or efficiently they are being operated, it's still costing way more than is necessary to spend.

We need to rationalize the number of facilities because we don't have the number of kids that are being kept. This isn't something that is new just to us. This is happening all across Canada. Facilities are being closed because we don't see as many young kids incarcerated as we used to. That is good news. It is good news because those community justice committees are being more active, they are diverting more kids and they are keeping kids out of custody. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Short supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One of the unforeseen cost overruns that we are going to run into here is retraining a lot of the staff that are going to be taking care of these kids here in Yellowknife. Just to go back to the mandate of the Justice establishment policy, the mandate will be carried out in a manner which respects community and aboriginal values and encourages communities to assume increasing responsibilities. I don't know how far away you can sway from that through these proposed changes. That is way out to lunch there, as far as I am concerned, with the whole Justice savings and the reasons they are closing the Dene K'onia and the remand centre. It just doesn't make sense, according to the mandate of the Justice department. When is this Minister going to make a commitment for those employees that are all going to be affected by these changes? When is this Justice Minister going to give them peace of mind and say you've got jobs that are coming down the line? We know there are cuts in the whole Justice department, there is a restructuring, but you will still retain a position in the Justice department. Is the Minister willing to make that commitment? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can't make that commitment. The budget that we have brought forward obviously involves the layoffs of staff in order to meet our fiscal target. I can't guarantee that people who have received layoff notices are going to keep their jobs in the public service.

We didn't issue any layoff notices to people who work in the remand facility in Hay River. Not one layoff notice was issued there, because none of the folks are getting laid

off. They will be absorbed into the staff at South Mackenzie Correctional Centre. The staff at Dene K'onia...It is unfortunate, but if we close the facility, yes, we don't have jobs that are necessarily available for all of them.

All of the employees have been offered government-wide hiring priority, not just at Justice, but in other departments they have opportunities for positions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't think that just the fact that they are given government priority in positions is really any kind of peace of mind for anybody. That just goes along the lines of affirmative action. That's just a loosely termed excuse, as far as I'm concerned, with the whole department. I just want to ask the Minister, does his department foresee any training initiative or cultural enhancement initiatives, that they are going to have to undertake with this whole new restructuring of the young offenders and the remand? As far as Dene K'onia goes, there are many people.

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. I will let the Minister answer that question. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think that the people who work at Dene K'onia have a lot of good skills that could be used in the system, and I have no doubt that they would be qualified for some of the positions in Yellowknife. If they are interested in transferring to Yellowknife and taking those positions, I am sure that they would be offered some of them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, it seems like this entire decision, with respect to the justice system, has all been based on cost savings. I have to say again today, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe those numbers. The $400,000; how that number was arrived at and how it was calculated is just not sound math or calculation in my opinion.

Mr. Speaker, I want an in-depth analysis of how much this is actually going to save. Because that is what we have narrowed it down to. This is only about saving money, this is not about fairness or decentralized services or serving people close to where they live. This is only about money. So let's talk about money.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, when we look at how the Minister calculated this $400,000 savings to shut down the remand, it was based on 5.5 positions of casual employees at $76,000 per position. Surely we have attendance records, we have payroll records to go back on. I want to know what the exact numbers are. I don't want to take a nice round number like 76 and multiply it by 5.5 and say that is what we are saving. The Minister, even today, is using words like, give or take, $10,000 here, $10,000 there. He used words like, we think. I don't care about we think. I want to know what we know. Surely we have enough historical data...