Thank you, Madam Chair. When I was first elected, they said housing would be one of my biggest files and it certainly has been and continues to be to this day. In fact, I just got another letter today that I would like to table.

---Laughter

There is a young family making a low income. They are living in an old house and want some help, but we can't help them. I don't know what happened to our program to help young families who want to do things by themselves, Madam Chair. That's kind of touchy when I get a letter like that.

So somehow our programs have gravitated away from social housing and it's something that I have been pressing, especially in this sitting of the Legislature. I don't know when or where it was that government decided to get away from social housing. I don't know how it came to be, but the fact remains that the people in the communities expect it and want it. If we are going to be a consensus government and listen to the people, then we are going to have to listen to them. They want social housing. They want programs like this to help out young families who want to renovate or get into new housing who have low income. That's the reality that's out there. Not everyone is making a good income and we gear all the programs towards them. We have EDAP and the rest of them. Not everyone can afford to buy a house in the communities. I don't know if they will be able to for a long time to come, Madam Chair.

I would like to urge the Minister to look at this and to seriously consider it. In fact, people are saying I am building a half house too. They come from the era when we had the HAP program, the Housing Assistance Program. People are just looking for help for their electrical, or for the plumbing or shingles, or the windows and doors which are very expensive nowadays. They are just looking for assistance to help them build the rest of their house, Madam Chair. Yet we don't have a program for that anymore. I believe it's detrimental to our communities, our people and the young people in the smaller communities. In larger communities, it's not that noticeable, but in smaller communities it certainly is.

I don't know how we are going to do it, but I will continue to urge this government towards social housing. At least in my riding, they are asking for social housing and I think we should listen to that and design something around that and use some of our resources. We have a bit of a window, so maybe we could do it for them.

Right now, the core needs are so high we are going to have to alleviate what we can right off the bat, just like for the community of Trout Lake. We are scheduling one house a year because they are a very small population. This year alone, we have three or maybe four young families who want their own accommodations and want to take on the responsibility of owning a house. We just cannot do it. If we are able to design a program right off the bat and put in four-plexes or six-plexes into communities and alleviate those core needs right off the bat and address four needs at once would be a very good use of our resources, Madam Chair. I would like the corporation to look at that because it would alleviate four families in Trout Lake and that takes care of everybody's needs. If you don't today, then it makes the need look that much more dire. So that's how much of a big impact we can have in a small community like that.

It's the same in Fort Simpson. The needs are high there. I noticed that in the capital plan, I think they want to do four units in a couple of years from now and six units three years from now. If there is a way, Madam Chair, that we can switch those long-term plans around and get those six units this fiscal year or the next fiscal year, we will get a bit of a jump on it. The way that inflation is, even though inflation looks low, every year that we put things off, things are costing more and more and has a big impact on the way we do business. In fact, just in Fort Liard alone the plan is to spend $2 million there and I am glad that we are going to do it all at once instead of waiting, because it is going to cost us that much more. To do a frame house nowadays is really expensive. I think we are being charged about $200,000. It never used to be that way. We used to build a frame house for $100,000, but for whatever reason the market is depressed so it is costing much more to build these same houses. If we can address those needs right away, that is one way of getting a jump on the forced growth that is happening.

Speaking of Fort Liard, Madam Chairperson, I mentioned we have a $2 million program going in there and the Minister is well aware and has been working with the community of Fort Liard. We do have to design the program, we have to get a competent manager in there and we need lots of inspections, we need adequate inspections to go in there as we are retrofitting, as we are building, as we are catching up to Fort Liard again. Because with $2 million, it would be a shame not to do it properly and waste all that money and resources that Fort

Liard has an opportunity to rebuild or rebase their community in terms of homes and housing.

There again, I would throw that out as well. Let's catch up to them. Liard has got a great need, let's do four-plexes or six-plexes. Let's get them in there. Let's use economies of scale so that as we are building, we can address as many needs as we can right off the bat.

I was thinking today, it's been a while since I spoke about mould.

---Laughter

That is a huge impact that Fort Liard has and the reason why we are spending so many resources there is that we have to address it. I am not too sure what the department is doing there, but I was talking to a fellow back in Fort Simpson during my last visit and he said, look I've got this machine that helps kill the mould dead cold, it actually kills them and you can paint on it. What we have been doing in the past is that we have been painting over the mould and not seeing it, but it is still alive. This guy says that he has got a machine that actually kills the mould. I said that's nice, I wonder if the corporation is aware of it. But it's just taking little unique ideas like that and actually exploring them and seeing if there are some facts behind what he is talking about and test it. Where to better test it than Fort Liard? I would urge the department to at least look at that because if that is true, then they are going to save a lot of money because the mould is into a lot of wood and a lot of drywall. We are talking about actually tearing it out and if there is a way to save it and not actually have to tear walls out, Madam Chairperson, then I am certain that it is going to reduce the cost.

That is one way, especially in Fort Liard, that I see it happening. I have been working with the department too, to set up a project interim manager for a couple years to oversee this project. It's $2 million but, I'm not too certain about the plan of attack. Perhaps the Minister can address that for me. As well, I know a lot of it is into repairs, some may in fact be new units as well as some suggestions like let's do a four-plex or six-plex. I know that having a housing authority or a housing society is an important aspect of the department being able to assist the community. I'm not sure what stage that is at, if they are able to negotiate this contract for Fort Liard.

Even though we are building all these houses, Madam Chairperson, another thing that concerns me is that we are taking people that have been in low rental or rental units for so long, that when they do finally move into houses of their own, they do not have the skill set to take care of their own homes. For whatever reason -- and I don't want to belittle these people -- they get caught up in having others take care of their plumbing needs or their repair needs. I spoke to the Minister about actually doing a home maintenance program before we transfer these people over. Some people love that kind of stuff, they have been in the maintenance field or they've had a home before and this is a new home so they know how to take care of a home, but for the most part we see lots of homes getting destroyed quickly and I think that is part of it. The little holes that are happening are not being patched right away, they are just letting it add up and then the home gets damaged rather quickly and it's just hole after hole and then that whole room or that whole wall looks horrible.

It's just teaching them the basics and I know it's not going to be one time only, it will have to be an annual event. Perhaps I will just stop here now, Madam Chairperson, and let other committee members refer to the opening comments of the Minister. In fact, if the Minister can address some of the concerns that I did bring up. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would like to thank the Member for his concerns and issues because I think it is important to realize that we can't develop social housing, because social housing has been discontinued since 1992. It's almost 13 years ago that the federal government got out of building social housing. I believe that is one of the main problems that we are running into in the Northwest Territories, because that program is not delivered anywhere in Canada anymore. Because of that, we are having such a housing crisis, not only here in the North, but also all across Canada because there are no more federal dollars expended for social housing.

Another major challenge that we face, especially in the Member's riding, is we don't have local housing authorities in all communities. We have some 23 local housing authorities, but there are still 10 communities out there that we don't have a presence in. Most of those communities are in the Nahendeh area and also in the small communities like Colville Lake and other communities in the territory. That again is another arrangement that we have to try to work through, because we don't have social housing stock or public housing in these communities. In Fort Liard, there was a federal program that developed Kotaneelee housing, which was delivered through CMHC in Ottawa. Again it is a program that they walked away from and we got stuck holding the bag. Now, because of that, it's costing us about $2 million just to deal with the mould problem that is there in the community.

One of the ways that we can get around that is through either establishing local housing authorities in those communities or else establishing universal partnership agreements with the local community council or the band council to look at taking over managing housing in those communities, so that we can look at delivering housing programs in those communities. Right now the way the programs are being delivered, especially in a lot of the smaller communities, is application-based programs. Right now, we have in the budget some $8.6 million for IHP and home repair programs. Most of the expenditures that are going into the Member's riding are for those types of programs, such as IHP, which is Independent Housing Programs that people applied on.

Again, it's about $1 million that is going into the Member's riding for the IHP; in all, about $140,000 for home repair programs. Again, the challenge that we face is that we have to get away from the idea that because the Housing Corporation does not have a local presence, we still have to find a way to deliver housing in those communities. With regard to the Member's concern regarding core needs; especially in the community that we designate through the needs survey, there was a motion passed in this House because of the surveys that we have done. We have 20 communities in the Northwest Territories that fall well in excess of 30 percent. In some cases, using

Colville Lake and Wrigley -- Colville Lake is at 67 percent and Wrigley is 50 percent -- roughly 50 percent of the people in the community of Wrigley are in need of housing.

Again in order to meet that demand, we have to either make a major investment in housing and decide in order to bring these units down just to meet the 30 percent level, never mind trying to exceed it, we need about 188 houses for these 20 communities to get them below that 30 percent core need. That is a major investment; somewhere in excess of $20 million. Those are the types of things that we have to work on.

In regard to the mould -- I know we had this debate in the House -- we had a professional person go in there and do a report on the mould problem in Wrigley and through that he made recommendations on how to deal with the problem. We have already committed financial dollars to this program and we have already put the materials on order, as the Member knows. We are waiting for the band in Fort Liard, in regard to Beaver Enterprises, to give us a proposal for a negotiated contract.

Again we are working on it, but, as the Member mentioned, there is a problem when people go from social housing into homeownership. We do have different programs in regard to a Supported Lease Program. This is for those people who are in social housing that want to purchase the unit that they are in. It is a two-year transitional process. Within that two years, you work with the tenant to really get an understanding of what it really means to be a homeowner. Every month you get him to pay the power bill, or pay the water bill, or pay the fuel bill and make them aware that these are actually costs that you are going to have to be responsible for when you become a homeowner. So they can do it while they are still in social housing and do a two-year transitional process. Also work with them to find where they can get a mortgage to either mortgage the purchase of the unit that they are in or work them into a program that is going to be able to assist them, such as EDAP.

That is one of the ways we are trying to work people into homeownership but, again, it comes back all the way to our core needs in a lot of these communities. That is some of the responses to the Member's questions. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. On the list for general comments, I have Mr. Yakeleya, Mr. Hawkins, Mr. Villeneuve and Ms. Lee. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just reading the opening comments from the Minister, for general comments, Madam Chairperson, I want to say...Like my colleague Mr. Menicoche mentioned, in the Sahtu region housing has been a really big issue for me in terms of the services, the building of houses, and just basic, general housing. I believe, over the past year, we have made some progress in terms of taking care of those needs. We are still a long way in terms of the housing programs, especially for the community of Fort Good Hope which is in dire straights in terms of home repairs and improvements for the people, and for the elderly people in the community of Colville Lake, as the Minister made previous comments to, into the housing program.

I want to just talk, Madam Chairperson, about just one subject. There are lots of subjects we will talk on, so I want to just focus on one in terms of the Minister and the corporation's response to housing needs, focusing on the professional needs in our community, the market housing initiative that was in last year. There was a real concern in my region to get some houses into our communities for professionals who want to stay in our region. The department responded we had to work out some of the kinks there, and so I wanted to say that I see that the Housing Corporation is looking at Norman Wells having some more units go in there. We have been asking for a long time to help set up the regional Sahtu health board in our community. We have always been told that we don't have the housing units and it's been a big desire for my region to get a health board set up and I am happy that the Housing Corporation is responding by suggesting having eight units go into that community to support that initiative. I know that the people will be happy in our region.

I am the first to admit that the first year of this initiative didn't work out as well as it should have, and that the government could have done a better job with consultation and planning. However, those are the trials and errors of putting the program in right away. The program was put in pretty fast, again to meet the needs, and this program needs to be tightened up on several fronts. Still, housing is a big issue for us.

The market housing in our communities in the Sahtu is very critical, as I said before. The main focus was the professional homes for teachers, nurses and even social workers. To get these professionals into our communities was difficult. However, I think we are starting to look at a solution to it. I know from the reports, that maybe we should look at the trailers that are in there now, and redesign them and some other units. That would go faster and be more suitable for our community members who are planning to make their home in the Sahtu for a couple of years or even longer. I know the cost of the units was an issue for some of our professionals in there, and I understand that the cost will come down by having some of these units come into Norman Wells and to the other communities in the North. They would be more attractive to our communities.

I guess, Madam Chairperson, what I am saying is that in our region we are looking for these homes for professionals so we can have people stay in our communities to teach, to look after our health care system and to stay longer. For a long time we have been struggling with how to get qualified professional people to stay in our communities, and these units are nothing. They are a good step in terms of getting them into our regions. The second phase of this market housing initiative I fully support, on behalf of the Sahtu, to go ahead with it.

I looked at the report one time, Madam Chairperson, and the Sahtu had the highest needs and we had the least amount of money going into our region, in terms of repairs, and I think that is changing. I want to say that the increase of the rental scale was of some concern. I hope that we can work out some arrangements for strong financial counselling for our people who are going to move into those brackets. I know a lot of people who want to buy their own homes. Again, we are somehow caught in that dependency in terms of the government owning it and paying for all of the facilities, the utilities. Now we are

having a change of our thinking in terms of becoming homeowners in terms of owning our homes. For some of that, it is a new notion for our people to be a homeowner. It requires some changing. We look forward to some strong counselling support that housing would give to our people in the Sahtu region. Small communities like Colville Lake, who goes to bat for them from the Housing Corporation? Me, as an MLA, on a daily basis. Who works for them? Who speaks on their behalf? I don't know. They have housing issues. I am not really sure how we can work that out with communities that don't have a voice on a regular or daily basis.

Again, I go back to Fort Good Hope because that is where most of my concerns were raised as an MLA. There is concern in Fort Good Hope by the old people who have their homes that lack the repairs and services. I am just hoping that the corporation will put money into home repair in these small communities. I went to one home, Mr. Chair, in Colville Lake, where there was plywood for a floor there. You can remove the plywood, and you can see the ground. Again, I go back to the basic needs of our people and housing is a basic need that, I think, needs to be looked at seriously.

I hope that this corporation gets the money and gets some fight for money from Ottawa to give them a significant amount of money to this corporation to build those homes for our people in the communities. You have to have our own people. The money has to be there. We can't cut back. Those are basic needs for our communities we are crying for. It is critical for people in our communities to have well-built homes. I hope the department look at some of those needs that are so vital to our people in small communities.

In closing, Mr. Chair, there was an elder I saw in Tulita who is from Fort Good Hope. This elder had his house broken into over this past winter. He has plastic on his windows during 43 and 44 below. Homes like that, it is a crime. It is in a community. I don't know how he made it through the winter, but he is 74 years old. He said that he would live in that home until someone would help him look after his house. Again, housing is key for our people in the communities. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, as the Member mentioned, there are a lot of challenges we are facing, especially in the Sahtu communities. I think, as a government, we have to ensure that we are able to meet the challenge, but I think that one of the more important things is that we have to start to either put more dollars into the building of housing or else ensuring that we have a strategy in place. Right now, we are developing a northern housing strategy in conjunction with the Northern Strategy. But in order to meet the demands, like I mentioned, we need 188 houses on the ground just to bring our percentages down to 30 percent. There was a motion passed in this House. They want us to do that by year 2007. That is two years from now. With regard to that motion, we have to find ways of dealing with it. Again, the concern is that we cannot continue to blame the federal government for getting out of social housing and other things. I think we also have to realize that we have a lot of communities. The Sahtu is one of those areas where we have percentages well in excess of 30 percent. I will just mention the Member's communities: Colville Lake, 76 percent; Deline, 42 percent; Fort Good Hope, 37 percent; and, Tulita, 36 percent. Again, just by those percentages alone, we realize how big the crisis is. Just to meet the demands of the community of Colville Lake, we have to put 15 units in there just to bring down the core need of 76 percent to 30 percent, almost doubling the houses that are presently in Colville Lake. So we are looking at 15 units that we are going to have to deliver just to meet that demand in the small community of Colville Lake. Again, there is a cost to that.

The same thing is with regard to Fort Good Hope. In Fort Good Hope, we have 168 houses. Out of that, 62 of those houses have some core need. So almost one-third of the housing in Fort Good Hope have something wrong with them. In just meeting the core need of people to get houses, again, we need some...Fort Good Hope, we are looking at 37 percent of those people are in core need. Again, it is a major challenge just to bring Fort Good Hope down to a certain level. We need something like 12 houses right away. We are, through the budgetary process and also looking at our surveys that were done, looking at putting almost $5 million into the Sahtu this year.

With regard to housing, we are looking at almost $1.3 million for independent housing so individuals can own their own homes through that program. Again, when you talk about maintenance programs and trying to bring our units up to a certain level, during my tour over the summer, I traveled from the Beaufort Sea down to the Deh Cho. One thing that I saw, which is pretty obvious, is that we have a lot of units that have deteriorated over time. You have a lot of old public housing in a lot of these communities that have had almost 30 or 40 years of life. The cost to repair these and to continue putting money in there is very expensive. Right now, just to do a maintenance program in the Sahtu, we are looking at almost $700,000. That is for this summer.

I would like to thank the Member for supporting the initiative with regard to market housing because that is one initiative that I feel that we have to deliver. It has to be affordable. More importantly, you mentioned low income people trying to get homeownership. A lot of these people can't afford a $200,000 home. For most of them, that is their first home. I think you have to be realistically aware that most of these people probably have seasonal employment, either working in the oil and gas industry, which is mostly with regard to the oil and gas sector, and most of that activity takes place in the winter months. Again, we have to be open to that and also work with communities to look at homeownership.

One of the other things that I think is important is that we do have a process for communities to be more involved in program delivery. We have what you call universal partnership agreements that we sign. It is a contract between ourselves, the local housing authorities, the band councils, and community organizations to deliver programs on our behalf. We have the Seniors' Society in the NWT, where we have this type of agreement to assist us in getting out there and explaining our programs and services and sitting down with the elders to explain the elders maintenance programs and explaining to the homeowners that there are repair programs out there and then also assist them by way of filling out applications and working with people at the regional level to improve that communication. Again, those are some of the areas that we are working on. We are developing a housing strategy for the North and I think in order to go to Ottawa and

knock on doors and meet with the Minister, what they are asking for is give us a housing strategy made in the North that will deal with your challenges in the Northwest Territories and write down what it's going to cost and give us some ideas and solutions as to how to deal with your housing crisis in the North, and that's what we're doing. Again, that's something that has been requested by the federal Minister of Housing that he wants us to develop such a strategy for the Northwest Territories and also for Northern Canada. So then when we do argue with our federal counterparts from the provinces, we can say look, these are the challenges we have in the North. This is what it's going to cost to fix it and these are the programs that we're going to be delivering to do that. So again, that's how we're trying to deal with that problem. With that, Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Next I have Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to continue discussion on the housing initiative, also known as the trailer junket, and I wish to know about what are we going to do about trailers or the lack of trailers going into certain communities. Really what I'm getting at is we're putting another 20 trailers or so out. There will be about a total of, I think, around 42, but the total doesn't really matter so much. It's the fact that we're still missing trailers in some of these communities and they still have a requirement of health professionals such as nurses, teachers, et cetera, in communities that are getting nothing. Again, to inspire my confidence, to get my support on this trailer initiative, I have to understand what we are doing about these communities that are struggling to get places and locations for these nurses. What are we doing on a case-by-case basis to reaffirm that that's exactly what the community wants, that's what they want to support, and that they can have a solid number to deal with, such as rent? I'm not going to pick a community to talk about, I'll let the specific Members speak about their community needs, but we need a dollar number so if you go to whatever community, these communities need to know in advance about roughly what this rent is going to be. Because if they are going to hold on or try to attract a nurse or a teacher or whatnot, they have to be comfortable by saying we can guarantee you a place to stay for $1,000 a month, if that's what the cost is.

We have communities that are not on this list and that affects us all here. Someone might think it doesn't affect the Yellowknife Members. Well, I would argue it does, because what that does is take resources that have to go pay for hotel fees. That makes unhappy Members and we want happy Members on this side of the House so we can get business done and not talk about this trailer problem continually. So what are we going to do about those communities that aren't getting any of this trailer initiative? Maybe if the Minister could make me happy a little bit on the issue, if it's possible. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, these are mobile homes, not trailers. These are actually physical homes that people live in and I think it's important to realize that since this program has come out, we have identified 42 units; 22 the first year and 20 this year. But I think because of the publicity that this program has got, I think it's helped us in attracting other communities who are now calling us asking us if they can get these units in their community, such as the hamlets in different communities. They are calling us, we don't have to call them and I think because they realize that this is such a good deal financially to themselves, but also they are in the same challenge we are trying to attract professionals, SAO financial officers, that, if anything, we do have to reach out to more communities with this program.

We're only going to be able to deliver this year to communities in regard to Norman Wells, because of the health board challenges. We were talking to people in Rae in regard to their challenge with the Tlicho deal, because they realize there's a major challenge and also their community services board is requesting that they realize in order to face this challenge, they have to have something that's affordable at the end of the day and it's also economically cost efficient. I think that in order for us to do it, one thing that we've done is we have looked at restructuring these facilities. We've talked to businesses that are now coming to us asking us to partner with them so that they can build either multi-plex units or look at duplex structures. I think that we are definitely seeing a major increase in other organizations out there that are now asking us to deliver.

I think the whole idea of the market strategy was to ensure that we can develop a product which is designed for the North, but also we're able to meet the needs of a lot of our professionals. I think you can't just restrict them to teachers or nurses or the RCMP or hamlet staff. We are starting to realize that a lot of these communities are running into barriers where they cannot even deliver basic core programs that this government offers, because of not having staff.

We just got a request from Tulita from an individual that used to work there who had to leave the community because they couldn't find housing, and now they want to go back there because now they realize that they have an option.

So these are professionals who have left and are coming back because now they realize that there is housing accommodation there. I think that from the experience that we've had from the first phase, we are realizing that now there are people who have options. We are getting requests from communities where we have these units. Yes, they were vacant, but at least now we have for sale signs in the windows and now people are calling our regional offices requesting that they be considered to be able to purchase these units. We have a community that didn't have a market and now there is a market, and that's the whole idea of developing a market strategy for non-market communities where there wasn't one in the first place. So again, we have people who now have an option, which wasn't there a year ago.

Again, I'd like to ensure that we do offer this to other communities that find themselves in a similar predicament, where we have to be able to work with them to ensure that they do have adequate, affordable, suitable housing for the professionals in their communities but, more importantly, to ensure the communities are able to deliver core programs without having this barrier in their face because they cannot attract professionals in their community. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Minister. The reason I raise this point again is to reaffirm that we still have communities that we're not meeting their basic needs, and by no means I'd like to restrict them by saying only nurses can get them or whatnot, or only lawyers or teachers or whatever the case may be as applicable. I wouldn't want us to think that. I mean, we have to say something. If SAOs, communities want them to do whatever they want, that's their business and that's not my business. Our business here is to make sure that we give them that type of resource so they can have that opportunity. Not to pick on my good colleague from Tu Nedhe, but I know a few of the units are empty there and you're saying that we've got for sale signs on there and we're having people call us. Well what's stopping us from selling? Now we've heard the song about people are calling us to buy them. I don't want to sound hostile or anything, but let's just sell these darn things if no one wants to rent them. Why are we holding on to them?

I guess in that respect, because, of course, time is running short, I'll also ask this question, which is again I stress not to pick on my good colleague, I'm sure they need those seven units, but if we have not all five units used at this time, then why would we continue to put two more units into Resolution and why wouldn't we consider another community that is not even on this list? So really what I am getting at is a share the wealth kind of perspective. I'm not trying to take them away from Resolution by any means. I want to make that clear to everyone and even make eye contact with my colleague. I hope he knows I mean that in the best way, he's probably giving me a little scowl at this time. But the issue is we've got units in communities that aren't even being used at this time. You can pick any community you want, but if we've got them sitting there empty now, why are we putting more in there when we've got communities that don't have them? Really, that's the point. I just had to pick someone to put a name and a face to.

So the issue really is maybe we need to go back. Can I get a commitment from you to go back and evaluate at this time? Maybe we need a market housing initiative in the 2006-07 budget that can help spread some of this gap, but I don't want to be putting more modular homes into communities that are already sitting empty. No offence to the Minister, but if people are banging on our door and wanting to buy them, then sell the darn things because, as I see it, we are subsidizing either full houses or we're certainly subsidizing empty houses and I would sleep better at night by feeling good that people are sleeping in them, rather than us trying to heat them and let them freeze up or whatnot on their own, sitting empty, and we'll pay a certain premium if we run into the problems with them being empty.

So I apologize if my good Member on this side of the House is worried I was speaking on his community, and by no means I was. I'm just firmly against that if we're putting these continually into communities and they are not being used, we should be asking ourselves why do we continue to do this when we have communities out there that are getting nothing. I can't look them in the eye and say we'd rather have empty units in this community rather than give you a chance. So any thoughts from the Minister? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there are not two units going into Fort Resolution this year. There's six units going into Rae-Edzo, two into Aklavik, eight into Norman Wells, two into Deline, two into Rae Lakes. But just in regard to Fort Resolution, since the last time I met with the Members, right now we do have an expression of interest by an individuals, an employee with the local housing authority. We have someone who works in the mines who is interested in purchasing, and also we have an expression of interest by a teacher to look at renting or purchasing. So we are starting to see people come forward to our people at the regional office. They're putting in enquiries and I think now they realize that we do have for sale signs on these units and we will be taking offers from these people because I think it's important that we occupy them. But the other thing is that now we have people who are taking the pressures off social housing by moving them into these units so others can acquire those social units that we have.

I think it's important to note that we are seeing, all through the territory, an interest in these units. If the Member wants, I can give him an update.

In regard to Fort Liard, we have had discussions with the band about purchasing and also we've had a renewable resource officer interested in purchasing. So we do have people in those communities who are interested in.

Also, I mentioned Tulita. We have just received an expression of interest from a professional who is moving back to Tulita who is interested in purchasing this unit. So again, it shows you that people now have an option they didn't have before and they are attracting people back into our communities by way of ownership of a home. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Villeneuve.

I have to agree with the Minister that they do have some very challenging tasks before them to try and alleviate some of the pressures that we have in our housing crisis in the NWT. I don't want to talk about a lot of the things that a lot of the other Members have already raised with respect to housing. I'm sure that in every community in the NWT we all have basically the same concerns and issues with housing, and options that probably could be the same options of how we are going to fix the problem. Probably everybody is along the same lines that just the delivery of the housing program is one of the big barriers to the programs at being effective and in alleviating the housing crisis.

With that, I have spoken with the Minister on prior occasions with respect to the delivery of the programs and the people that are delivering them at the regional level and at the LHO level. I'm sure the Minister is aware that a lot of the feedback he gets from clients in the communities, be it social housing clients or homeownership clients, is the lack of two-way communication between the department officials and the clients that they're there to serve. A lot of that communication just doesn't happen. Although a lot of the times the Minister gets the word that, yes, they are working on it or they are consulting with community

members about this or individuals with respect to their housing needs, but in a lot of cases that never happens and it never goes any further than that. A quick phone call or a visit, people would appreciate, even from the regional levels. That I have brought up with the Minister before and I'm sure we can work something out in the future to help avoid those kinds of simple problems that could be solved really easily.

More specifically, I would like to get on to some of the stuff like the maintenance management operating system. The Housing Corporation probably puts millions and millions of dollars into developing this program to make maintenance management of all the LHOs and the Housing Corporation a little more efficient and effective. When that program was implemented about five years ago, I was still employed with the local housing authority and we took this program and started using it and there were a couple or three years there that the program was just totally useless. I guess there's no better word for it. When the LHO managers get together every year to discuss LHO problems, funding arrangements and the like, with the Housing staff, there's always concerns there with the maintenance management system and how it isn't working and there are too many glitches in the system. Who even thought of that in the first place? Because there are many programs out there that have been developed by experts like Microsoft and whatnot that could have been just as easily incorporated into this inventory management system that the government reinvented.

When the LHOs get together, the managers get together every year and they kind of give the Housing Corporation a list of recommendations on changes that they could do to better deliver social housing programs or just basic EDAP programs and repair programs. A lot of those recommendations never get followed up or acknowledged. They just go and probably once they get into the office, they are just put on a shelf or put in the shredder and then the managers come back again a year later with the same concerns, the same public outcry about why these programs aren't working for them. Again, it seems to be like a really bad cycle of lack of communication or response to what the LHOs are telling them. They are the people that are dealing directly with all these housing programs and the clients that they are out there to deliver them to. I think that any recommendations that come from those people should be heeded and maybe incorporated into some of the programs that the Housing Corporation wants to change or customize to individual community needs. I think that's something that is very important for the Housing Corporation to understand. These people are on the front lines and they're the ones who are allocated a certain amount of dollars, which usually is not a whole lot. They deliver to the best of their ability and when they come back with good plans, they're usually just gone unabated.

With that, just as far as the market housing initiative goes, I think it was a good idea that they are trying to establish some kind of market in these communities. But I have to tell the Minister, that could have a real negative effect with new homeowners. If you're creating your own market, which might be a little over inflated if you start getting appraisers in there and doing market value not really based on development costs per se, but more on a market that isn't even there and you start saying these mortgages are worth $160,000 for a housing unit which is probably not worth any more than $100,000. So I think this whole market housing initiative the department has to be really careful with when they're trying to establish a free market when it isn't actually a free market, it's more or less a market driven by government. I don't think that lends itself as far as helping people buy their own homes. I think just to have an negative impact on that part.

I know the federal government funding for the public housing in Canada in general is going to be sunsetted, I think they said in 2032 and that's why they're taking this new market rent initiative and reinstating it because the LHOs have to find better ways of making people pay rent. I don't think that this big rent adjustment or this new phasing in of the new rent scale is going to help anybody. I think the corporation has to take a more individual approach to helping their clients. They have to treat everybody independently and individually. We don't have a whole lot of people here. We're only talking maybe 5,000 clients or so in the homeownership program and not many more into public housing. I think the government and the Housing Corporation should treat everybody individually, based on their circumstances, their income, their history and their aspirations and the like. It just doesn't happen, it seems, and people get kind of frustrated with that.

But you know, that's just one of the obstacles that the Housing Corporation has to tackle in the future and I look forward to seeing some improvement. Just a quick question, I guess, with the EDAP that's being delivered here in Yellowknife and the eligibility requirements for that. I just want to ask the Minister what is the income threshold requirement for a resident in Yellowknife to get the EDAP eligibility?

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just with regard to the Member's question, I think it's important that we start getting communities more involved in the program side of housing. I think I mentioned earlier that one of the ways we're doing that is we're working out universal partnership agreements with bands or Metis locals to hire people to explain the programs and be the contact person in that community to do the follow-up with the different regional staff. I know my office is always open to Members. If you do have concerns from your constituency or your ridings on a particular individual or client that we're working with, I'm more than willing to assist you by making the headquarters staff aware and also working with people in the regional operations to make them aware these issues are out there and for them to act on it.

I think, if anything, if we can improve the communication between the Housing Corporation and our tenants and people in our communities. That's going to go a long way to ensuring the delivery of our programs and services that we have to simplify, but also make it user friendly. I know for a fact that was one of the issues I've heard throughout my visits over the summer in a lot of communities. It seemed like people came to their communities, they took applications, they took a look at your house, they left and you don't see them for eight months. I think, if anything, we have to have better follow-up. I think from that I've basically instructed the department to start making use of these contractual agreements we have to improve the capacity of not only ourselves as an organization, but improve the involvement of the communities, local

housing authorities, to start taking more ownership of the program side of these things than simply being involved in the operations and maintenance of the community housing stock.

With regard to the local housing authorities, I know the biggest challenge they face is in the area of collections. But we have been definitely improving in that area and most communities are well in excess of 87 to 90 percent collections. I think that shows you that the communities are being more involved and working with our clients. I think that we do have to work out a system that we know people in order to...You mentioned the question of what it takes for someone to apply for EDAP. I think in Yellowknife, for instance, it's well in excess of $78,000. I think a lot of people in communities don't earn that type of salary and we have to look at our programs to ensure we don't discriminate on the basis of income. We have to ensure the program is universal, but we also have to have allowance that people should not be excluded simply on the amount of income they generate. We also have to realize we have to look at ways of how to spread out a person's mortgage who wants to go for EDAP. Like I mentioned, even by extending it for another five years could be a way these people could find it affordable. Instead of going 20 years, go 25 years. There's the possibility to go 30. I think those are the types of things we have to look at in regard to reviewing the mandate of the corporation and also in developing a Northern Strategy.

I think one of the challenges we're facing, not only here in the North but across Canada, is why is it that First Nations people make up the majority of people in public housing in Canada. I think that's a question we have to look at. Social housing is an issue, but how do you make that transition of three generations of people who have lived in social housing or public housing? We have to break that barrier. For some reason we're not seeing that transition.

I've been working with Billy Erasmus with AFN and we've also heard about an aboriginal housing strategy and that's one of the issues they're trying to face also. They have the same problems in the reserves in southern Canada and other places with respect to the whole area of housing.

Just with regard to an issue you raised about the maintenance programs we have. The program we use with regard to the maintenance management operations system, we have held workshops. There have been two in the last few weeks, one in the southern part of the territory in Hay River and one in Inuvik for people in the Sahtu and Beaufort-Delta region. We went over the maintenance program. One of the areas that I mentioned that we as the corporation have identified, we've put more dollars into the budget to look at the minor and major repairs we need on a lot of our stock, but also ensuring we have a good maintenance program so we have ongoing maintenance. You don't just do maintenance one year and then forget it for two or three and then realize you have a bigger problem than you did when you first started. The key is ongoing maintenance. You have to continue to keep up with your maintenance program. Again, in the budget, like I mentioned, there's $5.3 million just to deal with public housing and to start making those improvements on our housing stock, but also to try to extend the life of those programs.

Another issue that you touched on was the whole area of social housing and the declining dollars with regard to those social dollars, which will basically decline to zero in 2038. The biggest challenge we have there are most of the social housing programs, the 2,300 units we have, a large portion of this money, especially on the operations side, the O and M to operate these units, come out of that $30 million. So how do we replenish those dollars back into our system? One of the ways we're looking at is selling off our housing units, to take those O and M dollars out of those units that we sell and put them back into these multi-plex units that we're looking at building, which are more economically efficient, and also cheaper to build.

I think the other area that we're having a challenge with is the whole area of land development; just trying to find assessable land to build. As I mentioned, we need 188 units. Where do you put them in a lot of these communities, because they do not presently have land available.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move we report progress.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The motion is in order. The motion is not debatable. All those in favour of the motion? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I will now rise and report progress.