Thank you, Mr. Minister. I have Mr. Hawkins next. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to definitely speak in support of the Justice Minister's move to revert the court registries cuts both in Inuvik and in Hay River. Although this decision was done a little while ago, I wish he would have continued the tone of access to justice and how I often speak in favour of that, the fact that justice is often served better by the people and when the people can get it. Quite often that is a problem.

I did speak the other day in regard to my support to see action with the legal aid office getting that future support, again continuing that concern that I have about access to justice. So I wish to emphasize that. So those were definitely good changes. Those changes have far-reaching impacts into the communities. If you start eliminating jobs of that magnitude in a community, that

has a far-reaching effect on the spirit of the community. I would go into details which I don't have, but the multiplying factor of what job effects and how it affects the community, but I know it's in the range of three to four. So one job loss has a multiplier of three to four people out there.

But we all know, if you've lived in a small community, you realize the change of one or two jobs does have a ripple effect in the community. So you don't have to throw a big rock into the pond to see the water move. So I wish to emphasize my support for those two changes that went to the court registries.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to hear more about what the Minister plans for further additions to the RCMP over the long term. I was just reading the CBC web site and it talked about a break-in in Fort Good Hope. As I understand it, Fort Good Hope has three RCMP officers at this time, and there's a quote by the acting commander which is, "It comes as a surprise to many people that police can be victims of crime, as well, and it's rare but it happens." That's a quote from Inspector Greg Morrow with regard to someone breaking into the RCMP station.

Simply, I would like to hear what the Minister is doing to support the communities that don't have an RCMP presence on a regular basis. So if an RCMP station in a community with three officers can be broken into and stuff happens, what are we doing actively to help protect and support the RCMP in the area of a community that has no permanent RCMP presence? I would like to hear some thoughts from the Minister at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member asked what I would be proposing for the future. I think all Members are aware that in 2001 the RCMP requested an increase in their complement, and in last year's budget, this current year's budget, the one that's before the House right now for next year and the one that I would propose to bring forward for the subsequent year, we will have dealt with all of their requests in that proposal. So I have already advised the standing committee that I will be looking for support for another six positions, to respond to that request in next year's budget.

What have we done to date? As part of the response to that document from 2001, we have increased funding to the RCMP to provide for a number of relief positions, and that has allowed an increase in the number of patrols to communities that don't have resident RCMP. So there has been quite a significant increase in the numbers of times that the RCMP are getting into those communities. We have already committed previously in the House and earlier today to examine with the RCMP what it would cost to build a business plan just to deal with those communities where we don't have detachments now, and bring forward a plan for a phased approach to that. I have no idea what sort of dollars or timing we're going to be looking at there, but it is something that I have committed to work on and to try and do my best to advance. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your answer there, Mr. Minister. In regard to the six speculative positions at this time that sort of go back to the report, I can't say they're six firm positions at this time because we're sort of looking into the future, so I hope we don't argue over the number as opposed to the point, which is would this Minister consider options of maybe working with this side of the House in us maybe supporting a supplementary appropriation to help support that injection of those six members? When we have communities that don't have policing, our job here is to reaffirm that the policing agency, as well as every agency, has the support required to do their job. Is that type of discussion open at this time to sort of engage this side of the House? Let's put it on the table. What if this side of the House put a motion forward? How receptive is this Minister? Is he willing to listen to us on dealing with this? This is an important value. I have a piece of document here that says even in a community that has an established policing presence, the RCMP is getting broken into themselves. How does the Minister feel about that, if, on this side of the House, we can muster up support? Are you willing to move forward on an initiative like that, to help ensure that we get some policing in our communities that have no presence? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The six positions I talked about were part of the request from the RCMP to deal with providing a minimum level of service just in the communities that already have detachments. So those six members aren't intended to provide additional services to communities that don't already have services. I have already committed in the House that I will work on a business plan and try to advance the issue of dealing with communities that don't have service. So I don't think that it's an issue that needs a motion in the House; the commitment has already been made.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

I guess really I'm concerned about the places out there that don't have a permanent flag pole of the RCMP in the community. I know, in all fairness, it's probably very difficult to establish a police presence, considering the cost of infrastructure to put a post there. But I guess we have to be more proactive about how we're developing community policing. I know that the Territories does invest money into that initiative, but my concern more is from the enforcement side, as well as the public peace side of communities. How many communities out there do we have without any established policing presence at this time? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have 11.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Out of those 11, how many days of the year do they have some type of presence? Do we have someone there travelling back and forth to establish some type of fiscal presence, be it for one day? We can pick one community. I'll let the Minister pick a community. How often do we have a physical presence from the RCMP in those communities? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have the schedule for all communities, but at the table here we can remember one community: Sachs Harbour. Generally the schedule now allows for the RCMP to go in every three weeks for a couple of days, unless there is an incident that requires them to attend in between. But the regular visits would happen every three weeks for a couple of days.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I see the clock is winding down, so I won't be too lengthy. I appreciate the Minister mentioning Sachs, because that is a great example; every three weeks we have a presence in the community for two to three days. I know it's unrealistic to establish a post permanently in every community, but I know, for example, in the community of Inuvik we have a highway patrol and we have a camper, and they put a presence on the highway in the summer. I'm just concerned from the area of a regular presence and known presence in the community, because three weeks seems a bit of an absenteeism when it comes to a regular touchy-feely presence in a community. I'm kind of concerned, from that aspect.

What does it take from this side of the House? I know the RCMP work independent of the Department of Justice; however, in consultation with the Department of Justice about their presence. But how do we step up that type of presence in our communities? Again, reaffirming good tools like the police camper where they travel from the community up and down that highway, again to reaffirm its presence. That doesn't mean that they're dishing out or doling out tickets every day, but just showing that they're in the community and there for the people. What mechanisms can we do to help step up some of these patrols and presence, from the ministerial point of view? That will be all at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It would take an investment of money by this government to increase the numbers of RCMP so they could be in the communities more often, or so that we could provide detachments in more communities.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I have Mr. Braden next. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Hay River remand situation has received a lot of air time in the Assembly in the last few days, to the extent that a lot of the detail, I guess, has really gone over or under or around me. But I have tried to look at this in the sense of what are we doing, what kind of an impact are we having on the delivery of essential justice services to a community and to a region of the Northwest Territories? The arguments that the Minister has made, Mr. Chairman, in favour of the amount of money that could be saved, where the service could be relatively easily and efficiently provided here in Yellowknife, are quite persuasive. I have certainly tried to look for value for taxpayers' money, and even when jobs are involved, to know that the jobs that are being done have value, aren't redundant, are really generally making a contribution I think is important too.

I'll come back to that point of knowing whether or not we are really making an impact in the delivery of an important part of the justice infrastructure, the justice function to the people of the South Slave region. So the question that I would put to the Minister, and it has probably been put several different ways, is with the closure of the remand facility in Hay River, would it really be, in the most objective sense, a disservice for the people of that region by taking the remand facility out of that area? Thanks.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. There isn't a simple, quick answer to the question when it is put that way. As Mr. Hawkins pointed out, there is a spin-off effect when you cut jobs in a community, so there is that side of it that does have an impact on employment and the overall economy of the town when you reduce jobs.

In terms of the direct impact on prisoners who are in remand, we have, typically, in the range of, over the last three years, about 66 people who have been placed in that facility from the South Slave per year. So there are about 66 on average that have gone in over the past little while. The warden just advised us that, in his experience, 40 to 50 percent of that group could still be housed in the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre. They wouldn't necessarily be housed in those separate cells. They would be classified as such little risk that they wouldn't have to have 24/7 supervision. They would be classified as the same as the balance of the offenders who aren't watched 24/7, but have occasional supervision as the correctional officers rotate through the building. So we are talking about somewhere between half to 60 percent of that 66 that would wind up coming to Yellowknife for the services of remand.

In terms of what our remand clients receive, they receive significantly less programming usually than inmates in the general population, simply because it is not known how long you are going to have them in there. They don't tend to get started in programs that may have a longer length of time, but that is true whether they are in North Slave or South Mackenzie. So the difference would be that, for that 50 to 60 percent, they would be out there from Fort Resolution; they would clearly be farther away from their friends and family. If they are from Hay River and were judged to be that 50 to 60 percent that couldn't stay, they would now come to the North Slave. Obviously, they are farther away from their friends and family as well. So there would be fewer visits with their friends and family.

In terms of services that they would receive, they are pretty much the same in both facilities.