Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a few more questions on the special needs question. I would like to, first of all, ask the Minister to meet with the Social Programs committee on the new directive for special needs, because I think there is a lot of interest among the Members here about what he plans to do to tighten up that program further.

Another thing that I want to say about this is, I think we should take our time to revisit our special needs policy, special needs inclusive schooling here, because we have it as a stated policy that all students are supposed to be in the mainstream and they should get the help they need to be able to do their schooling mainstream. I know that we may sit back and think that we're doing a good job, we're increasing our funding to special needs, we're doing more and more and more, but, like I stated before, I have no idea of knowing whether I'm meeting the needs of those students with special needs or not.

On the ground, the Minister has acknowledged that some of the funding that was meant to be allocated for special needs might not have gone all to special needs and such, and he's hoping to address that with the directive. But that's just one issue in relation to this program. I think to me, it seems it's carried out too much like a first-come, first-served basis and it's like we almost don't want to know what the needs are. It's like you have a pot of a hundred bucks and whoever needs special needs, they all have to come and they're going to get as much help as what that money would support, and that's not the way...I mean, I understand why we have to do it this way, but I'd like to see us try to change that because I don't think we do it that way for health care. If somebody has cancer and needs cancer treatment, I guess we have a universal Health Care Program and so anybody who needs treatment like that will get treated. But in the schools we have, I think there should be a standard and some kind of criteria where the students who have such severe needs that they are not able to move ahead unless they have one-on-one help or more intensive help, that they should be covered. We should have basic items; whether it's autism or cystic fibrosis, I don't know. I don't know if we could start naming conditions where students with special needs...I don't know why I mentioned cystic fibrosis. But some learning difficulties. You know?

I don't know if there are any other jurisdictions that do it this way. I think that, you know, there are, whether it's FAS needs or I don't know. We, I think, need to, we're not going to be able to make headway into dealing with our students with severe needs and helping them get incorporated into the main learning environment if we continue to say we don't really know what their needs are. I don't think we do. I mean, if the Minister knows, maybe he could tell me.

But we're just going to be giving 10 percent or 15 percent of the main pot and hope that will deal with that. I don't think that's going to get us any further ahead and I don't think there's anything more important in terms of dealing with the needs of our population and getting them ready for the 21st Century and getting them ready for the high-tech jobs that are coming forward or any of the economic opportunities if we do not jump in there and really look at our kids to say and be able to say, okay, what are the needs here and we are going to cover the top. We have to do it by need, not by, well, we can only do it by dollars. I'd like to know if the Minister will be willing to look at something like that in the way he sends out his directive. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd be very happy to meet with the committee. I believe we actually have a date set for meeting with the committee to talk about the directive on March 30th. I'm looking forward to that opportunity. I know I've written to the committee requesting a time to meet with them to discuss the directive. We can certainly talk at that time about the different approaches.

There are two different approaches used in Canada. The one that Ms. Lee talks about is used in some jurisdictions where an individual is identified as having a certain need because they are in a category. I think we used to use categories here at one time, category one, two, three, four, and then you wind up though...That was often seen by people, though, as a way of labelling and is not considered sort of the appropriate way in which to handle the issue. So we switched, probably in the mid-'90s, from that sort of method to the one that's used now, which recognizes that almost every student at some point needs some level of support and leaving it to the schools, the boards themselves, the schools and the school boards to determine how to appropriately deal with the students that they have to provide the services to.

So there are the two different ways that you can do it. We've tried both ways now. This way seems to be working. I mean, I think it works better than the other way, because you also then wind up perhaps running out of money after you've dealt with all the level ones or the level fours and you have to say that's it for services, I guess.

So I'd be happy to discuss a different approach, though, with the committee and the different options that we have.

I think that knowing that we have worked with every single divisional education council, school body, with the Teachers' Association and other stakeholders, that we are also embarking on a very close collaboration with Health and Social Services and that we're going to see more of their teams in our schools in the course of the next little while here, that I think we are on the right track to make sure that we can deal better with the issues that are presenting in our classrooms. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could I ask the Minister, on what basis can he conclude that this system is working better? What information does he have that tells him first-come, first-served and just allocating a certain amount of money? I'm assuming that there is no uniform policy that is out there for all the school boards in terms of how they determine who's going to get what and for how much. Because the way I see it working, it's like one of those cakewalks, you know? You go round and round until the music stops and then whoever gets the cake gets the cake, but there will be some who don't get it. It won't be necessarily on the needs of students; it will be on whatever money is in the pot and whoever could argue the strongest. We have to be able to come up with a better system of determining exactly what the needs are of our students, whether they be health needs, educational needs, learning needs, behavioural needs, whether they are FASE, FASD, or any number of other cognitive issues, whatever. I think to say that we can't know this and we can't know the scope of this because we don't want to label anyone who is not addressing the full issue, I believe that you're not going to know. I just can't sit here and keep approving money and hope that giving more money and asking them to look at a problem would just somehow deal with the problem. Not problem, but deal with this very important issue or it'll just go away. I need information from the Minister on what basis he believes that what he's doing for special needs situations in the North are working, and how that compares better to other systems that are in play. I think if the Minister is going to have really substantive discussions with the Social Programs committee later this month about this policy, then I need to know that he will have looked into all these questions before we have that sort of...We need to rely on the department to give us the resources to have the debates in. Could I have that information from the Minister, please? Thanks.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We can certainly provide a report on what other jurisdictions are doing and how they do it. We know that in conversations with our stakeholders, the boards and the educators, they tell us that this is, in their opinion, the best way to deal with it. I think it's important to remember that although we had been putting a large amount of money into the system over the past few years, it was only when I became aware that this money might not all be going into special needs that last year, I issued a directive that you didn't get the money unless it was actually being spent on special needs. We tightened up the requirements for how it would be spent. So that, along with the new special needs directive that we're planning to send out or issue later this year, should ensure that we are seeing the sort of supports that are needed.

I'd be quite happy to make sure the committee has information from other jurisdictions where the process might be handled differently. The biggest problem that I hear from people who have this system in their jurisdiction is that it doesn't deal with all of the kids. Only those kids who've been able to have an assessment are the ones who get the funding then. Because unless you're labelled as having a special need, there is no allocation of funds if you're in that kind of system. We are, right now, unable to ensure that we can get all of our students assessed. We don't have the health care professionals in the North or in the system that we can make sure that's happening. So we have, to date, been relying on the schools to tell us who needs to get that sort of assistance.

You know, it would cost this government I don't know how many millions of dollars, to do an assessment of all of the kids in the North to find out how many are affected with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. I doubt that Health and Social Services has the money for it and I don't think we're going to get the money for it, so if we wait for an assessment to say that this child needs some assistance because of that medical problem, then I think we're failing those kids. Whereas the system we've got now, if it's recognized that the child needs some support, then it's expressly stated in the act that every child shall get an education that is appropriate in the classroom. That's a requirement that each of our divisional education councils has to live up to. It's our obligation, then, to try and make sure that we can provide the funding so that they can do that. They were telling me consistently that they weren't getting enough money. I looked into it and said, well, part of the problem is I don't think you're spending, not all of you are spending it where it should be spent. Then when we got that straightened out, they still said they're not getting enough money. I know that I've talked to parents who say that they know the schools aren't getting enough money. So we've moved forward to try and improve that situation. I think that now it's going to take us a little while to get the money into the system and to demonstrate that we can better deal with the problems that we're facing out there. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Next on the list I have Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. I just want to highlight the full-time kindergarten program; the $1.638 million that's been funded through education authorities. During our December consultation process and also meeting with various parties in the communities, it has been stressed that this education directive, there was going to be some cuts in funding. There's been some different approaches to this particular issue, how to fund the full-time kindergarten programs.

So during our tour of the Chief Jimmy Bruneau School, we heard on the social committee program, Social Programs committee heard from the resource people on what kind of impact it has in our region, the amount of dollars that we're talking about and the students that will be impacted.

So from there I presented to the social committee and then presented to the Minister, met with the Minister with my resources, the Tlicho Community Services Agency resource people, and we had a really productive meeting, I must say. But, at the same time, I'd like to know from the Minister if...We talked about different options at that level. The Minister with the chief executive officer, with the chairperson, and also there was a letter that went to the

Minister outlining our position as the Tlicho Community Service Agency and what kind of impact it would have on us. I see this 1.6 and our impact alone is half a million in the Tlicho riding.

So a question to the Minister is, since our last meeting we've initiated our letter that's been requested by your department. I'm just wondering what the next step is at that level where we threw an option of us pursuing as status quo, where there is no full-time kindergarten on our part. There was a letter clearly outlining that from the Tlicho leadership that we want to stay as it is, except 22 plus students to attend high school. Because even in our high school, we've had since 1994 over 60 students who are 22 years and older that successfully graduated from high school. Mezi School in Whati alone has 18 successfully graduated from high school that are 22 plus. So I guess he can look at it as a model for the North in graduating aboriginal students in the Tlicho; not Tlicho community, but aboriginal communities.

So I'd just like to highlight that to the group here that there is a huge impact on the Tlicho region and we threw around an option. We're just wondering if the Minister is still working on the option of us having a status quo and leaving it as it is for Tlicho riding and allowing that option to other communities, like Deh Cho or Sahtu or Inuvialuit, if they feel that there's a need to be a status quo or if they want to continue with this new initiative of full-time kindergarten program.

So if the Minister could reply back on the status of what they've been working on in that area. Mahsi.

Mahsi, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate Mr. Lafferty having brought this issue to my attention with the leadership from the region. We certainly want to celebrate the success that we've seen in the Tlicho region and if they're finding that it's more productive to extend schooling to those who are past the typical age for attending school, we're prepared to take a look at what we can do to accommodate that.

My plan is to have a paper to FMB here within the next two to three weeks to seek approval to allow the Tlicho Community Services Agency, as well as other DECs in the Northwest Territories that want to do it, the option of either choosing full-day kindergarten or choosing to continue funding for full time for those students who are over 22. So we're hoping to do this and it probably is a transitional, on a transitional basis, so for a period of years we'll offer that opportunity for that sort of flexibility. There may be somebody else who finds they're in a similar situation, but certainly we take a look at the success in the Tlicho region and we're prepared to agree to try and move forward with them in concert.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Lafferty. Thank you. I've got Mr. Hawkins next. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On page 3 of the Minister's opening notes here, we have an acknowledgement of the Pathways Program and if the Minister could explain to me sort of in a brief way, is the Pathways designed for students that are unable to fit in the regular stream of academia through their grade or kindergarten through 12 process? Could the Minister sort of give me a one or two sentence encapsulation of what the Pathways Program provides? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's a high school curriculum only, so it's only in high school. It's really not something that's aimed at somebody who wouldn't achieve, perhaps, in one of those streams that Mr. Hawkins has mentioned. It's aimed more at helping prepare kids for the world of work, as I said in my opening comments. It's for those who find it challenging to be in a regular classroom, perhaps, and a curriculum. This curriculum is more, for instance, in science experiential or application-based. In the English language arts, it would be one that the literature perhaps wouldn't be Shakespeare, but something more contemporary. So while you're still learning the same skills, the curriculum is designed around experience, or application, or something that many kids will find more interesting; the object being to keep young people interested and, therefore, in attendance.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Minister keeping a short definition in there. That's what I sort of thought it was, but I just want to make sure. Just in keeping with this Pathways Program, do the kids get a regular diploma when they're finished the Pathways Program that they could proceed to maybe college in a year or two, whenever they decide to, whatever the case may be? Do they get some type of diploma certificate that they can take forward if they so wish, to choose, to go on and seek further education? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's going to come down to what the prerequisites are for the college program that the student might choose. Some students will be able to take these courses and move directly to college. They're not considered a lower calibre or anything. They'll fully articulate with the rest of our offerings. What it is, it's just a different approach to science. For instance, a couple of weeks ago, I met with a group of elders who were brought in by the department to work with the curriculum people to try and relate our curriculum to more of the aboriginal culture. So it's to try and bring more relevance to a lot of the programming that we're offering. It doesn't change the level of the programming, but it's to make it apply more to what students from the North might find relevant.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the colourful answer the Minister gave me, but as I understand it, typically, if you want to go to college or such as like Mount Royal or Grant McEwan, you would need some type of math or science or English in order to qualify to get in there and I'm just trying to understand. Does Pathways provide those types of skills? I'm happy to hear that we've got some elders who want to make sure that the Pathways Program is sort of relevant to the environment, but I'm sure to get into Grant McEwan, one

of the requirements is not learning how to skin a beaver or anything along that line. They're going to want real, in the sense of academia skills such as math, science and English. I appreciate the cultural content because to a lot of people that is it and that's very important to proceed forward. Does Pathways prepare students to go on to college in the context of, for example, Mount Royal? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wish there was a simple one-word answer that I could give Mr. Hawkins, but, in fact, the answer is, "it depends." If you want to become an engineer, you're going to have to have pure math. All of these courses, by the way, will end in a zero. So we're talking about 30s. So it'll be Language Arts, it'll be a 30-level course; the same with Experiential Science, it'll be a 30-level course. It will depend what field you're going into at college whether or not this course will help you get there. So for instance, rather than dissecting a frog, the course may involve dissecting a muskrat or something that's much more relevant to those of us in the North here. That's the sort of thing that we're doing.

We're trying to make sure that the Pathways Program is also designed to be a little more flexible in terms of exit points. It will allow somebody to exit to go on to college. It will allow somebody to exit to go into an apprenticeship, or it will allow somebody to exit directly into the world of work. That's one of the ways we're trying to make things more flexible.

We're also, at this point, distributing the course outline, the curriculum, to post-secondary institutions to get their take on it, just to make sure that what we're doing will be accepted by post-secondary institutions in the prerequisites for the courses that they set out. But again, it's going to come down to the actual course of study at the post-secondary institution whether or not each of these courses will be relevant. It's gotten to the point where when you move into the post-secondary education field now, it's gotten so specialized that you have to have taken exactly the right courses in order to get into a lot of fields of study. So students are going to have to be more and more aware of that requirement as they move through high school, as well.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Hawkins.