Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have 138.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is 138 units territory-wide sitting empty or abandoned because money for operations and maintenance has been transferred to new units does not make a lot of sense to me, especially not if we have a housing crisis and we have a critical housing shortage for people in the communities. Just even on the basis of the fact that they are occupying a piece of land that is already surveyed and could be available for construction of something else. We have a land shortage, we have a housing shortage, and 138 units sitting empty...I don't expect the Minister to be able to tell me all the reasons why these houses were abandoned, but might I suggest that's a fair amount of investment that is sitting there that should, in my opinion, be brought up to standard and utilized or torn down and used the land for some of your new units. Recycle the land. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A large portion of these units, like I mentioned, are being repaired under our major repair program. Because of the repairs that are taking place, that's why they are vacant. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are there any reasons why the NWT Housing Corporation would keep a unit in their inventory even if it was not being utilized? Did somebody else, a third party, provide the money for the unit and they would lose funding if they were not still standing? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, like I mentioned, with the social funding going to Education, there has been a cut from the social funding we have received from the federal government. A large portion of those social cuts are in the area of the O and M for operation of social housing. So in order to replace those federal dollars, we are having to get units off stream, especially the old SHAG units we had in the past. Most of these units have outlived their usefulness and are going to be replaced with newer units. The majority of units that you see with regard to the budget that has been presented, 75 units will be there to replace social housing units. We are looking at constructing six or eight units and acquire that land that these units are sitting on. So we are already looking at that scenario with regard to the replacement of our social housing by way of the 75 units that are in the budget. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, does the Housing Corporation ever consider taking units that they don't have the dollars to upgrade, or operations and maintenance, or invest any money? Do they ever transfer those units that still have some useful life left in them to band councils, or community governments, or aboriginal groups that may have access to funding through other means that they could reinvest in those units? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we do have a program where we purchase public housing initiatives. We ask the clients who are in these units if they would like to purchase their unit. We do have a program out there, but there has been very little intake on that. People are aware of that program, but there are hardly any people wanting to take an older unit. If anything, they would like to move into a newer unit. So that program is out there. We have had a few units through this program given to the tenants. We do have a program such as that.

I would also like to reference the numbers. I mentioned 138. That also includes units that are not occupied. I know there has been some discussion about vacancies and Tuk facilities and facilities in Fort Smith and other seniors' facilities. This also includes seniors' homes. That number includes all public facilities. I just want to make that clear. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Mr. Chairman, in terms of units that are in good repair, like the seniors' units that you mentioned then, I would suggest that if there is no uptake on the horizon, that these facilities be reprofiled and that they get put into use. It's just about unthinkable in some of these communities where there must be a demand, whether it's young people who are heading out on their own, in communities where there isn't a lot of market there aren't a lot of options. There must be demand. It's sad to me to see facilities being operated, O and M going into them, the lights are on, the heat is on and they are not being utilized. I think that's a tremendous waste and you have to get very creative when you think about working and consulting with communities to find out how these facilities can be put to use, even if initially they somewhat missed the goal or the target when they were initially constructed. So I would like to see that reprofiling exercise take place.

Back to the abandoned or unused units, you are saying that some of the older units are available to the occupants in them. They would rather not take them on under homeownership themselves. They would rather get a new unit where essentially the capital and the O and M is picked up by the NWT Housing Corporation. Isn't there anything that you could do, Mr. Chairman, that would kind of make there be some incentive to people? Give them the house, if they will take on the operations and

maintenance of the house, and fix it up and invest something in it, some of their own sweat equity into it, and it gets them into an independent situation and off the books of the NWT Housing Corporation. It would be worth it for you to give the units away. Is there anything that precludes the government from giving the units to those occupants or giving away the empty units? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we have sold 33 public housing units to our tenants under this program. The program is out there and we haven't had the uptake we were hoping we would. I think it's an alternative for people to get into homeownership, but again, because of the concern of the operational cost of an older unit, they want to have a more energy-efficient unit. Those are most of the concerns we are hearing, because they are old. They need a lot of repairs and brought up to a certain standard. Those seem to be the problems.

I would just like to illustrate with regard to vacancies; I will use Deline, for instance. It says there are 26 units vacant. There are nine units which are shut down; four are under renovation; six are bachelor units; and seven are under major repairs. So that gives you an illustration of some of the vacancies in the smaller communities. If the Members like, I can get copies of this so you can see exactly where the problems are. Most of them are units that we had to shut down because they are under renovations.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. General comments. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a few questions on the numbers that the Minister just provided. Just a question on the shutdown units. How long have they been shut down? How many years have they been sitting there boarded up?

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve. Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we would probably have to provide that information, but, in most cases, you will see the number of units that have been shut down and the number of new units that they got, if they coordinate with each other, you can see the reason they shut it down was to transfer the O and M of those units to the newer units they have constructed. So in most cases, you are able to see that in the numbers.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't know how we can figure out how long they have been sitting just from the number of new units that are going in. From one of my communities, I have a lot of units there that have been boarded up or abandoned for quite a number of years now. Maybe one or two, if we are lucky, get removed every year by way of a public tender or just the government going in and dozing it down. I know that there are a significant amount of housing units all over the community that are boarded up and have been that way for a number of years. The housing is still looking for new housing, lot developments in other areas and we have a whole whack of houses boarded up. I just wonder if the Minister can provide more information on the communities, and how many lots have abandoned units or boarded up units on them, and how long they have been abandoned and boarded up.