Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maybe the Minister could correct me if I'm wrong and maybe my memory is wrong or maybe my understanding is wrong or something, but I seem to recall that when the proposal was made to transfer the $40 million or whatever millions it was that used to be housed in Housing to ECE, the money was transferred first and we were given assurances that the details of the program would be worked out, that it was not a final thing. That's how it moved. I mean we could go back to Hansard, but the money was housed there for a year before the plan could be worked out, but the thing is I must have missed the steps in between because we really didn't have another chance to have an input into that process as to whether this was a good move or not. Once the money got transferred, the programs and the implementation of this new initiative have been playing catch-up ever since. It seems that we're not able to adjust or make suggestions or change anything. It's just like its gone, we have to approve extra resources and I know that even as this House was passing a motion for a review or maybe perhaps looking at whatever, like the motion we passed on and I think we might have even passed a motion to bring it back to Housing Corp. I'm told that the Minister said publicly that that wasn't going to happen, even with the motion that was on the table.

So I think it's not a bad thing for the government to admit that maybe something they did was not a good idea. It's not saying that you're a bad person if you might have made a bad decision because it was a collective decision, but it is never too late to correct that, but it's continuous, it's endless. We're hearing it in communities, we're hearing it in Yellowknife, and I think we need to review this because I don't think what is happening now is what we had in mind or if that was our goal. So I'd like to ask the Minister if he would work with the standing committee to see if we could review this transfer and to lay out the issues and see if we could do this any better and if we can't, we need to put it back where it was. The whole point of it was to improve it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The government still believes that this is the right move. We support the move, but we are very prepared to work with the committee. If there are issues that are identified, we will make sure that we deal with them. I can tell you that we are hearing far fewer concerns being raised. The president of the Housing Corporation, the deputy minister, all of the staff work together to resolve issues when they are raised. The issue around the policy and how it's applied is one that the government believes that subsidies need to be seen visibly. That has bothered some people who before didn't see how much of a subsidy they were getting from government. It was our position that that is a better way to go and we haven't changed our minds about that. I would be happy to meet with the Member, to meet with the standing committee and if there are issues that need to be resolved still, we will work to resolve those.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sure I hang out in different places than the Minister and talk to different people. I am sure his staff are not going to tell him that there is a problem with these issues, but I can tell

you that I am sure the Housing Corporation staff don't know why this was transferred. I know that ECE staff that are administering this program wish that they never got it in the first place and, most importantly, the user groups are not benefiting from this at all.

I understand that we had to streamline it and make whatever process transparent or consistent. I don't have a problem with that, but definitely the people who used to get this housing program from the Housing Corporation feel that they were treated much better. They were treated with more respect and dignity than what's going on now. I am sure it's an isolated case, but there are lots of cases like that where people are being followed, tracked and being asked very personal questions about their income and such. I don't know how to revisit this, so I am going to ask the Minister for an idea as to how we review this.

Maybe he could come to us with some information as to how he is convinced that this program works. I don't know what the indicators are. Are there more people being...I don't know. He seems to be very certain that this is the right way to go and this is the better way to go, so I am prepared to receive any information he may have that would convince me of that. I would like to see that as soon as possible, instead of hearing that he is saying it really doesn't matter what motions are passed or what's being spoken here, that he is going to stay the course.

Also, the additional information that I asked, I would like to ask the Minister if you would make a commitment to inquire with the rental board, landlord and tenancies board, rental tenancies board. Inquire with them as to how many of the cases that they have been getting are having to do with this situation and also I would like to know how many people who used to qualify under the Housing Corporation are no longer able to access that program in Yellowknife as well as in communities, as much as possible.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would be happy to check with the rentals officer to see if there has been any uptake in the number of applications and what is seen as driving them.

In terms of access, Mr. Chairman, when we took on the program from the Housing Corporation, our commitment was we wouldn't change any of the rules for access over what the policies were from the Housing Corporation. We have maintained that. There have been absolutely no changes in the rules over what the policies were for the NWT Housing Corporation. We have found some LHOs that weren't enforcing the policies in place with the Housing Corporation and that may have led to some of the issues.

The policies that we were given by the Housing Corporation are exactly what are being followed right now and we are prepared to put that through an audit. We haven't changed the policies at all.

In terms of that, there are issues that Members find, for instance I had a Member come to me and tell me that in one of their communities in their constituency there were a significant number of problems. We had staff go to that community for a full week along with the staff of the Housing Corporation and do an audit of all the files for the previous year to find out where the problems might have come from, spend some time with members of the community explaining the policies behind the program and how it works. We are prepared to resolve the differences or the challenges where we find the challenges. So if Members have issues, if you bring them to either myself or to the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, together we will follow up on that. But I need specifics. So where do you see an issue? I don't think it's something we can talk about in the House here because I need to know the specifics of an issue and I will make sure we follow up on it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Ms. Lee.

My time is up.

Thank you for being honest, Ms. Lee.

---Laughter

We'll go to Mrs. Groenewegen next.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the issue of income security, I am not going to go on and on about this but I have a concern...Not a concern, a question. I have a theory that some people, not all people, on income support have the ability to use the money for other than the necessities of life. I think income support money gets spent on drugs, alcohol and gambling; some. I am saying isn't there a way to tighten up the system that would ensure that what we intend to give money to people for actually gets used for that? I have heard the spiel before about how we want people to make choices, be independent and we don't want to hold their hand. We want to trust them and empower them. You know, some people have problems and when you put money in their hand, sometimes it just makes those problems worse if there isn't any guidance or any restrictions on how that money gets spent. Has the department ever considered how you could assist people through income security without money being spent on things that would, in fact, not only be approved by this government, but probably cost this government a lot of extra cost and a lot of grief in our society? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our workers often encourage people to allow us to pay bills directly. So, for instance, an oil bill, rather than having cash go out, we are quite prepared to send the cheque directly to the oil company. We would be prepared to send the money directly to the Co-op or the Northern Store so it goes on an account that people can use to purchase groceries. Those offers are made quite regularly.

Even if we were to impose that kind of change, if somebody is desperate to find drugs, we know people will go to all sorts of lengths to do that. They could still wind up trading food or other goods for money to purchase the drugs. I don't know that there is a way that you can actually stop that sort of behaviour. We have to make sure that through things like a case management approach and through productive choices, that we are helping people find ways to be more productive and actually come out farther ahead. If they are using money that should otherwise go to food to purchase bingo tickets or drugs,

that means they are giving up on something pretty important. There isn't a lot of spare money they are getting. Most people will tell you it's not enough to pay for a healthy food basket.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to ask if a productive choice is to have children. If you have children home and you choose to stay home and you are on income support, is that classified as a productive choice? If it is, how long does that support continue while you are electing to do that? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If memory serves me correctly, I believe that is a productive choice through the age of five with children.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So if you have a child at home under the age of five and you don't have other household income, you are automatically entitled to income support.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can't say that it's automatic. Each case is looked at on an individual basis. We are trying to move more and more into case management. So there might be a situation where there could be some discussion about additional training. We provide funding for childcare as part of income support as well, so there may be some options available to young mothers.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mrs. Groenewegen.

When you provide support for childcare for a young mother, do you pay the service provider or do you pay the mother? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Minister.