Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Minister and executives, for coming before the Assembly and Committee of the Whole today. This

meeting here is not one of a kind, Mr. Chairman. It is a continuance of the public process that this Assembly initiated some time ago now, some months ago with the Auditor General of Canada to review the performance of the WCB, especially as it relates to the handling of the claims of injured workers and how their interest could be better met and more efficiently met.

Mr. Speaker, the Report of the Auditor General of Canada was tabled and publicly reviewed by the committee last June for some three days. I believe it was September, Mr. Chairman, that we had a further public review of the progress to that time. What we are hearing today is the discussion about WCB's commitment to bring forward an action plan on the recommendations that came from the Auditor General. I believe there were some 34 or 36 recommendations.

So the committee chose to use this venue, the Committee of the Whole and Legislature, as a good way to continue the whole idea of a public review, the opportunity for the public to see and hear our discussion. We have the benefit here of television, radio, live broadcast on the web and it's an expression, Mr. Chair, of the committee's mandate and desire to open up the business of what we do and how we engage with agencies and organizations of the GNWT, like the WCB. I personally want to see much, much more of this kind of thing on an ongoing basis. I believe that will strengthen not only the job that we do here, but I think that overall that transparency and openness and the ability to hear and listen and at times participate in what we do is indeed a major cornerstone of good government. So I'm pleased that we're continuing to open up the discussions and the affairs of the WCB.

Mr. Chairman, the Minister tabled quite a bit of paper in relation to the recommendations that have been made. In some areas I find that they are indeed a work in progress. Some of the recommendations have been satisfied or are close to being satisfied, and that is understandable that we are certainly not looking for a quick and complete turnaround. A number of things that were identified are complex and will take time to move on.

Some of the responses that we've received, Mr. Chairman, we're going to be probing for some more information. Some of the responses, quite frankly, I find very wanting; and, in fact, continue, regrettably, Mr. Speaker, continue a sort of pattern and habit that we've seen within the WCB to avoid or defer or deflect attention from what we have requested and what the Auditor General has also recommended. So this will be where I'm going to go, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to other comments and getting into some detail.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Next on the list for general comments I have Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I also want to thank the Minister and his officials for coming before the committee today in terms of this important issue on the Workers' Compensation Board. More importantly, as I see it, Mr. Chairman, is how is this going to affect the people in my community and my region, in the Sahtu region? What is that today and in the future that we can tell them in our communities that, you know, how this legislation, the things that we have, are going to talk about today is going to affect them? That they know if it's an aboriginal speaking person or a non-aboriginal speaking person. That they know these measures are getting to them, and how this legislation is going to take care of some of the workers in our community. The little guy, as I call them. We pay the big bucks for this type of service that we provide as legislators. So I want to know, and how is this going to be explained to my people and other people across the Northwest Territories who are in the same boat. How will it make life easier should something happen to them in the workforce?

Mr. Chairman, the issue sometimes gets confused and sometimes it gets pretty complex and I think any worker in the Northwest Territories will tell you, you know how hard it is sometimes and sometimes it's frustrating and it's a difficult job here. So we have to really think about the workers here and that who are in this type of position, what we're trying to give them as legislators.

I'm here because my people have put me here to work for them on their behalf on these type of issues here. That's where our tax dollars are going. That's where the services are. So I really want to stress that this is a very important piece of work. People sit on these boards here to work on behalf of our people and to see that the services are there for them there. As Mr. Braden has alluded to, and also Ms. Lee has talked about, the importance of this legislation.

I guess, Mr. Chairman, I really didn't see how this legislation was really working until I had a member of my community be affected by this and how hard that aboriginal person had to work even to get some kind of attention on this issue. All the work that we did, and this person is 70 years old, speaks the Slavey language, and me just being a first-time Member and the first year of this Legislature, I had to do work on his behalf. So I got introduced to it real fast. There were some gaps that needed to be fixed in this area here. At the end of the day, Mr. Speaker, it became frustrating not only for me, but for this person that I was representing on his behalf.

I think there's certainly some recommendations we need to look at and I'm really looking forward to seeing where these number of areas where service, client services, as the Minister has indicated in his statement, number of areas where client services can be improved.

I'd also like to ask the Minister in my discussions later on in terms of the communication plan and the protocol as to how this is going to be rolled out. The Minister has indicated in page 3 of his Minister's statement about the training program for employees. I certainly think that's a valid statement there for employees to get some training, but I also want to ask the Minister, has he, his board, considered training for some of the people in the communities on some of these things here? It's good to train the employees and that about their responsibilities and roles, but you also need to really get back into the community, understand to see what type of training needs for the community members or the workers there, what type of training that's needed for them. I don't know if that's feasible or not, but I think that's, you get one side all the amount of information, but the other side doesn't have it. They come to us, as legislators, and they come banging at the Minister's door in terms of what we need, so we have to be cognizant of that area here.

I'm not too sure how this is going to be rolled out in terms of the communication plan, but I'll leave that until I hear other questions by our colleagues here to talk about some

of the recommendations that were pointed out to us by the Auditor General, and as a committee we had some discussions already with the Minister on this issue here. So I want to say that it's really important that our people, the little guys in our community, understand how the worker's compensation is being developed and it's going to come out and how they're going to be protected or looked at in terms of who's going to help them in these areas here. I hear a lot of stories, Mr. Chairman, about injured workers and workers that have tried the system and I'm going to say for my own self, for my region, that we want to look at some of these issues that have impact on the aboriginal population, because a huge number of my people fit in that area.

So, Mr. Chairman, the closing remarks that I would have is that I'm certainly glad that the Minister is here with his officials and hoping we can have a good dialogue that would go forward with these, see the workers come out on top in terms of how do we take care of them. That's my sense and I look forward to further discussions on this.

Mahsi, Mr. Yakeleya. Next on the list for general comments I have Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the WCB is an organization that does many things well, and fiscally, I believe, it's still one of the best and probably the most solvent in the country. However, there are some areas that are areas of frustration, having listened to my colleagues around the table here. Having been the Minister responsible back in '99 for the last part of the 13th Assembly, I know how much time was spent by staff in my office dealing with concerns from workers. I know the extreme frustration as Minister that I had trying to work out what I thought was an appropriate relationship with the board and with the WCB, to the point of even being told that it wasn't really necessary for me to meet with the board. They didn't really have a great interest in anything I really had to say other than I just fulfilled the function as Minister; which is, in their opinion, very minimal. I know that I don't think things have changed since then. I think every Minister that has responsibility for the WCB faces the same level of frustration.

So clearly, the legislation that we have before us to be looked at and amended should clarify that. It should be clear that the Minister is more than just a rubberstamp and signs off what's put in front of him by the WCB. It should be clear that if there are significant issues of concern raised by a Legislature that makes the laws for this territory, that the WCB would be well considered to work with the concerns raised and attempt to address them, recognizing that they have a job to do and that they're arm's length and that they get their direct funding from the businesses. But also recognizing that, as Ms. Lee indicated, they are a public institution. It's, I think, that particular circumstance which has to be addressed, is probably the underlying reason why there is such a built-up frustration in trying to deal with the WCB when you're an elected official in this Legislature, either as a Regular Member or as a Member of the Executive, and it's something that I would look to see being remedied as we bring forward the legislation for consideration in this Legislature. I think one side is clarified and there can be acceptance by the WCB that we are not the enemy and that we have to have a productive, cooperative relationship, then I think a lot of things can get worked out because I don't know of any MLA or Minister, for that matter, that wants to spend inordinate amounts of time trying to mediate and work with constituents to sort out WCB issues. We all have lots on our plates and it's not something that I know of any MLA that goes looking for that kind of work. But when it comes through your door, you have to respond. So as we deal with the more specific issues, in my opinion that's the fundamental issue that has to be clarified and once that's done, then I think we can resolve a lot of the other process issues and administrative issues. But until there's that fundamental clarity on the relationship and the role of the Legislature in relation to the WCB, and that it's more than just a figurehead relationship but it's a constructive working one that has to be clarified legislation, then we can move forward.

So I'm looking forward to the rest of the discussion. But clearly the key piece for me, the vehicle we have to remedy that situation with the WCB is how we write the legislation. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Next I have Mr. Villeneuve.

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to thank the WCB and the Minister for coming today to go over this long overdue process of review of the WCB and how we can help from our end to make WCB more responsive and more worker directed, I guess I would put. I don't know how else to put it better. But I'm not going to say all the things the other Members have already spoken about because I'm sure the WCB has pretty much gotten the message through the Auditor General's review and the recommendations that she's come out with. I'm sure they're taking those very seriously and working to resolve a lot of them and make some changes in WCB, I hope, that we'll see in the near future.

When I go out to my constituency, and even here in Yellowknife, and people talk to me about WCB, I never hear any good things about WCB. Maybe one in 100 people that I talk to say something good about WCB. I'd like to see that turned around. I'd like to see people be highly commendable of what WCB does for them and how supportive they are for them, whether they receive compensation or not. I think compensation is something that's a whole different issue altogether. I think the issue of compassion is probably the one that I can think of, as there really is none there. It's just like walking through WCB cold, hard steel doors, like jail doors, and that's the feeling that people get. I hope that what they're talking about renovations and moving things around, that's great. But it's got to go beyond the doors. It's got to go right up to the people that are working there. It's right up to the board level.

One thing that really bugged me during the whole Auditor General's review, that whole process that we were going through, Mr. Chairman, and you were there too, and a lot of Members there were here, and every day that we sat there and we talked with the Auditor General about all this, the review that she put in front of us, the only day that we did see the Worker's Compensation Board there was the day that they had to be there. Every other day there was nobody there from the board. To me, that was really a sad sign of how much they really cared in what they were doing, that they were being dragged through the coals and that they were being turned inside out, and there didn't seem to be any...You know, nobody really batted an eye. I would have liked to see a board member there every day of the hearings, even just to report back to the members.

But we only saw them there that one day and to me that was a real strong indicator that we're going up against something that's really entrenched and going to be really tough to try and turn around and spin around for the betterment of the common worker.

I hope, like my colleagues were saying, we can make some resolution to find better service and better responses and more positive outcomes for the injured worker. I don't want to see it going as far as creating new legislation that all of a sudden doesn't put them at the arm's length that they are right now. But you know, if push comes to shove, I think that's where it's got to go. I would like to see them stay the way they are. I think they're totally financially responsible, which is great. They are definitely in the good books of the government because of their financial situation, but I think we really have to stop thinking about the dollar and start thinking about our workers here in the NWT and all across Canada, because I know they get all kinds of people that are from the East that are filing claims and I know the logistics in trying to sort those out are probably pretty complicated and drawn out, but I think they're totally capable of handling caseloads like that.

With that, again, I'm not going to drag it on much longer, but I'd just like to see after this process that through this sitting in this House that the Minister can come back with some real clear messages for Members, for the public, that the WCB has gone a little awry, I guess, insofar as helping the common injured worker in dealing with a lot of legitimate injuries, I guess, maybe, and even the illegitimate ones. I think even those ones have to get the same amount of attention and support and direction or advice as to what they can do and how they can address those issues. I hope that we can really come out of this smelling like a rose, you know, for the general public, for all the workers that have been working with the WCB for 20 years. Some people have been fighting with WCB for stuff like chronic pain and injuries that they can't substantiate anymore because it was so long ago. To me, just to hear that, I'm just so glad that I haven't had to go to the WCB for anything yet, but lo and behold, that day may come. Anyway, with that, Mr. Chair, I'll just leave it at that and I hope we come out looking really positive in the eye of the public after this and I hope that the WCB does too, you know, right alongside, arm in arm, with the government. At arm's length, mind you, but still working together. Thank you.

Mahsi, Mr. Villeneuve. There's nobody else on the list for general comments so what I think we'll do is perhaps we'll go through the document. Do Members wish to ask questions on a variety of subjects or do you want to go page by page, the document, as tabled? What is the wish of the committee? Page by page? Okay. It's Tabled Document 104-15(5), the WCB Comprehensive Response to Committee Report 5-15(5). So questions, page 1. Questions? Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Minister Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll refer that question to Mr. Doyle.

Mr. Doyle, please.

Thank you, Mr. Doyle. Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the answer, Mr. Doyle. The document tells us that last year the average time from the filing of an appeal to the rendering of a decision was 246 days. Is that a reasonable time? Reasonable; that's in the eye of the beholder or perhaps the appellant, isn't it? Are we doing better? Is the amount of time that it's taking on average to render a decision getting shorter, or what is the status on the amount of time it takes?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Doyle.

Thank you, Mr. Doyle. Mr. Braden.

I guess I'm going to go back to the initial motion, Mr. Chairman. The recommendation to the Minister was to find ways to expedite the resolution of longstanding claims so perhaps we shouldn't be asking whether 246 days is too long or not, but whatever our length of time is, how can we expedite things, how can we move things along in a faster method for long-outstanding claims? Mr. Chairman, I wish I could put some framework to that. I can't. But we're dealing with the impressions that we're getting from constituents, from workers, that there are some cases that have been lingering out there for years. Those are the ones that we wanted to have addressed; they're not, and I would say, Mr. Chairman, that the committee should send the Minister back to come up with an answer that more directly addresses the motion. I'll stop there, Mr. Chairman, if our process is to take things motion by motion.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Rodgers.

Thank you, Mr. Rodgers. Anything further, Mr. Braden? Thank you, Mr. Braden. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On that timelines for reviews and appeals, the WCB's response, although it's long, a couple of pages, it basically outlines what they're doing now, but really it's not speaking about how this could be improved, and that's the kind of response that gets us wanting, as Mr. Braden said. Mr. Chairman, I think it's really important to note that when we are here talking about this and trying to improve the situation, we're not saying that everybody should be entitled to compensation or anything like that. As Mr. Miltenberger said, I think that when the system works, that's the time when you have less cases coming before us. This is not our department, if you don't mind me saying so. I mean it's just that in my job, in our job we get everybody coming and talking to us and we're not the first point of contact for their issues. When they're stuck, they come here and they're welcome to come here. From our point of view, we make assessments and we make judgments and we understand our job. I'm telling you from my standards, if I get a string of people saying the same thing from the same place about the same issue and the same process, I take that very seriously. WCB, on this issue, is one of them.

Now on these long appeals, I know WCB repeats often that they do a customer satisfaction survey and 89 percent say they liked the work or whatever. There are lots of details to that that would question that. I know an employer who was called and he was desperately wanting to answer the survey, but as soon as he said there were no claims, click, off the phone. Now, Mr. Chair mentions that there is only zero point whatever percent that are not resolved or...Okay, I understand there are many, many cases that go through the process, they're gone and they are dealt with but that's not to say there are lots of people who have given up. It's like unemployment numbers: there are people who are out of the employment market, they are not counted as unemployed. There are claimants who have just had enough, they've given up, and also you have to look at the quantity and quality of the cases.

Now, back to this point, I am very disappointed, and this is one of the, you know, many -- I'm going to have lots to say about all the other responses -- but why can we not get a response from WCB, okay, this is what we want to do to improve this situation. I am aware also, Mr. Chairman, that in between the time that the Auditor General filed her report and this response time, workers were contacted by WCB to say that we're going to settle your cases but you're going to get 50 percent, or you're not going to get retroactive pay. So what I'm saying is this is very important. This is very important.

I want to know that if workers are entitled to something, they're entitled to something; and if they're entitled to something, they're entitled 100 percent. There's nobody who should be allowed to say to them you're only going to take 50 percent. If you're entitled, you're entitled. If you're not, you're not. All I'm interested in hearing is they go and get assessed, worker says no, they should go to the tribunal process where they're well resourced; that they have an independent, fair-minded hearing and they are well resourced to present their case. They can have a fresh hearing...which is questionable at the moment, which I will deal with later. If they win the case in Supreme Court or the next level of the hearing, I want them to be able to make some progress with that win and not go back to the same process where they're going to be reviewed by the same people, the same way, same rules, same lack of resources and all the resources on the WCB part. I have a problem with that. I want a fair process out of this. I want a fair system whether it's one person, five people, 50 people. They could all go there, they're going to get a courteous, compassionate worker service at the entry level; and if they have grounds for appeal, they should be able to appeal, and they should get legal resources. If WCB has the resources to make their argument, I want the people to have legal resources. I want them to rely on their own medical opinion. If they're going to the tribunal, then I want the tribunal to be in a separate office with separate resources, separate medical opinions, separate lawyers. No one, no doctor, no lawyer, nobody knows everything. I hate to tell you. Everybody has to be open and be subject to counter opinion. There is no God. There is only one God and no one around anywhere here knows...

---Laughter

There is only one God; and he or she is the only one that knows everything and who can't be questioned. I know God doesn't reside in the WCB.

---Laughter

So I want to know, just on this motion, I want to know why and if Mr. Chair or the Minister could suggest if...I want a

confirmation from them that if anybody is going through this timeline, they get the fair hearing. If they're not entitled to benefits, that's fine; but not tomorrow you're entitled to 50 percent and you're going to get retroactive and then you start questioning that and you say you're cut off. Like who gives that kind of power? I want the chair to confirm that that doesn't happen and that the WCB comes with a solid plan as to how they're going to cut this, I mean, improve the timeline process without arbitrary measures. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Minister.