Mahsi, Madam Chair. The committee wishes to consider Bill 8, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2007-2008, in detail. Mahsi.

Very good. Thank you. Is committee agreed?

We'll do that after a short break. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

Mr. Roland, for the record, please introduce your witnesses.

Thank you, Madam Chair. To my left, I have Mr. Sandy Kalgutkar who is the director of budget evaluation; to my right is Mr. Charles Tolley who is the manager of budget development. Thank you.

Okay. Detail it is. We will defer consideration of Bill 8 itself and deal with the detail booklet, so please turn to page 5 of the bill. Page 5,

Legislative Assembly, operations expenditures, not previously authorized, office of the Clerk, $125,000.

Expenditures on behalf of Members, not previously authorized, $13,000.

Total department, not previously authorized, $138,000.

Page 6, Executive, operations expenditures, executive offices, not previously authorized, $199,000. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you. Madam Chair, the question I have for the Minister, Madam Chair, is the survey on family violence is $75,000. Madam Chair, there are a number of surveys, a number of reports, a number of recommendations and I want to ask the Minister, Madam Chair, in terms of expenditures on this to tell us that we have an issue, tell us that there are action plans already being discussed and recommended. I would like to get more clarification on this survey of $75,000 to tell people in the Northwest Territories that we have an issue and we have problems with family violence. I am trying to figure out why they have a survey. Other recommendations have been done before in terms of family violence. There are certainly issues in the North here. Also to look at, Madam Chair, the territorial family violence conference and put that money towards the uses of front-line workers instead of spending $120,000 there. So I would like to ask with regard to these two specific funding issues here. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a breakdown of what makes up the numbers for the survey of $75,000 and for the conference of $120,000 for details of how that conference and survey will go...I would ask the Premier to give that detail.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I will answer the question with regard to the survey. The survey is being done because we have been working to reduce violence and so on. We don't have any baseline data, so we need to have a baseline data that we could work from to know the areas where we need to put more effort on public education, prevention strategies and so on. The survey would involve a sample size of 750 respondents and would be distributed amongst various strata within the different communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the family violence survey in terms of collecting baseline data to residents in the Northwest Territories and the 750 respondents talking about information. I think there is already existing information within the system that could be used already. I haven't seen the survey myself, so I am not sure what type of survey it's going to be. Is this a matter of collecting baseline data? There is data already in the system on family violence. I am not sure about that one.

I want to ask the Minister regarding the family violence conference and the use of this conference. What is the purpose of having this conference? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. With regard to the conference, Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to mention first that we work along with a lot of other partnerships like with NGOs and so on. So it's not always our decision or direction in terms of what will happen.

The people on the Coalition Against Family Violence feel quite strongly about the conference. They feel a need to build that awareness and at the same time do some training. The conference will accommodate 120 participants from across the North. It's broken down into four sessions. Each session focuses on one action that has impacts in communities. They will use some expertise, as well as facilitators in the groups, and will use this information and the consensus that they achieve in order to help them to develop better programming, better intervention techniques and a better focus. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have no issue with better training for front-line workers, better resources but I am having somewhat of a difficult time having another conference telling us this is what we have to do. It's been an issue in our communities for a long, long time. Front-line workers know the issue of family violence and they know they work with different coalitions such as the Family Violence Working Committee. This money has been spent to bring in 120 workers from different areas of the Northwest Territories to look at training, look at different areas they can work on to reduce, minimize and prevent family violence in our communities. I am having a hard time with the $120,000 expenditure. I think this money could be used for going into the regions and tackle the problem as there is always a lack of money with these hard-working committees that work on such issues as family violence. It certainly could be used now. I certainly don't understand the need for a conference to tell us we have an issue with family violence. I would ask the Premier if they have anything new to add in our discussion here.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, I don't get to all of the coalition and government meetings. Again, there have been a number of meetings. They have, in the Framework for Action - Phase II, there is a whole list of actions in there that have been laid out. The consensus among all the partnership is that this is an opportunity to bring in one caregiver from each community and experts both from the North and from the South. The culmination of those people to take a look at the actions that are identified and determine what is the best way of being able to put those in place. So it's a conference, but it's not just a conference to blue sky about what we might do, but it's more a conference of how we go about

implementing the framework in a way that is going to be most meaningful to the communities. Of course, as well, there is also work that has to be done on the survey and collection of baseline data. What kind of data do we want? Make sure that this doesn't just fit the experts' ideas of what it should be, but also the caregivers from the communities. So it's a combination of both coming together. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to confirm my support for these hard-working people that deal with family violence in our communities. We need every type of support. We need to work with the family, the children, the abuser and victim. They have to work with the whole community on this issue. Family violence is a very powerful, very sensitive, we have to be very careful to work with the family on this issue here.

What I want to say, Madam Chair, is some of the family violence workers are underpaid. Sometimes they are in term positions and sometimes they have to leave their job early because there is no funding left in the program. There is a lack of funding in the program. I am again telling that to the Minister. The territorial family violence conference, I am not sure if that could be coming at a later time. I think this money could be used to help fund our workers. There are workers in my region being laid off because there is no funding in the system. There are workers that need to be supported in the schools where family violence is often not talked about. So there are small children. We know what is happening in our communities.

I understand what the Minister is saying about bringing people together and talking and training. I think we need to really look at the workers in terms of supporting them, getting the funding to small communities. I am not too sure how this money is going to be rolled out in terms of community input, community involvement. There will be $75,000 spent in one organization, or go to the health boards to do their own surveys, to do their own recommendation. So I know what he's saying. I want to support the Minister and this is a very good initiative, but I think the money could be used, and that's just my opinion, for the front-line workers and the help they need. The conference could take place some other time. That's my opinion and I want the Minister to know that. I do support him in the issue of helping to deal with family violence in our community.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Okay. Next on the list under Executive, operations expenditures, executive offices, not previously authorized, $199,000. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I've got a number of questions on this as well and it follows up with my colleague Mr. Yakeleya. I guess first of all, the Action Plan on Family Violence was approved by the Assembly I believe 18 months, two years ago, now. It's been around for a little while. I'm just wondering if these two functions, the survey and the territorial family violence conference, are items that are included in phase two of that action plan. Why is the Department of Executive coming back through supplementary appropriations seeking money to have these two things carried out when they should be coming through the business planning process, Madam Chair? That's the first question I have.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this was one of the areas, that category, all departments had put in for new initiatives during our original business planning process and with the fiscal information we had at the time, we directed all new initiatives be parked for the time being until we knew what our fiscal situation would be as a result of the federal budget, and this was one of the new initiatives within the Department of Executive. So they did try to initially come through the business plan process, but because of our fiscal situation we had parked all of the new initiatives until this time knowing what our fiscal position was now with the federal government budget passed. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister of Finance for that explanation. The conference on family violence, I guess it's nice to give the providers of that service from around the territory an opportunity to get together to share information and coordinate efforts and things like that. It is $120,000. That's something I can live with, Madam Chair.

The survey, though, is another story. I know the Premier mentioned earlier about baseline data. I mean I'm not an expert in this field by any stretch, Madam Chair, but if you want baseline data, I don't think you need to look any further than the RCMP and the reports that come down on incidents of assault, domestic violence. You can find that information out. In addition to that, we have community-based social workers who can tell you what's going on. So I don't buy the fact that we need baseline data. I'm not sure who the 750 people that you'd be talking to, who they are, which organizations would direct you on who to talk to and whatnot. So I'd like a little bit more information on this survey, if I could, Madam Chair. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, for the financial breakdown, I can provide that to the Members. For the detail of the actual survey work, I'd have to go to the Premier. But the financial breakdown has been provided. Survey design is $3,500; interviewer salaries is $30,000; travel for operations, $26,000; printing and communication costs, $5,500; data capture and systems, $5,000; data processing and preparation of files and documentation, another $5,000, for a total of $75,000. For detail of the survey, I'd have to go to the Premier. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think I wouldn't mind if the Minister responsible could give us an explanation on why it's necessary to get this other baseline data when I think if you look in the right places, you can find it. My colleague Mr. Yakeleya said it earlier, we know what's going on out there; let's do something about it. Spending money on surveys and studies and

reports and paying consultants, I think we're past that. As one of my other colleagues mentioned, that's yesterday's news. So let's move on with things and put the $75,000 towards something where it can make a real difference, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Again I want to remind Members that we have, we're doing this in partnership with the Coalition Against Family Violence. Those are the people who are the front-line workers. Those are the people who are facing the issues every day. Those are the people, you know, the family support centre in Hay River, the Tuk women's and children's shelter, the Inuvik Transition House, the Alison McAteer House, Sutherland House in Fort Smith, the Centre for Northern Families, the Status of Women Council, these are front-line workers. I think it's probably frustrating for them, they know the business, they know what they need. They're asking for it. They're saying we need baseline data. They're saying we need to look at programs for children who witness abuse. We need to get together and improve our training on shelter workers. These are the kind of things they want us to do. Now for us to start second guessing what they need I think is probably a bit demoralizing for them. So I have to support them and say, look, they are working along with the NGOs, many of them very poorly paid, and we're taking a lot of direction from them. But we need to have the resources to be able to back up the work that was done. This is phase two of a report that came out a good probably two or three years ago since we first did this. So, Madam Chair, I don't want to guess at what they need for baseline data. I'll take their front-line experience and say let's build with them. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister for that. I'm not here today to demoralize anybody. What I'm here to do is my job and ask questions. I hear also from the front-line workers where there's not enough money and resources, especially for the NGOs. So if we are going to spend $75,000 on a survey and then we've got other NGOs saying we're not doing enough for them, there has to be a balance somewhere and I think we do have to ask some questions. The list of organizations that the Premier had mentioned that were going to be part of this survey, I'm wondering if there's going to be any men that are going to be interviewed in this process, Madam Chair, because as I've heard from some of my constituents, violence is a two-way street. I think it behooves the government to actually stand up and do something not just for women, but for men as well. There's a lot of violence that happens in the family that is done by men, but it also happens, as a matter of fact, where women are the culprits and the instigators of violence, and I think men have to have just as much say in any type of survey that we're going to conduct here because it does happen. I have heard stories, horror stories, about that happening to men as well. So let's be fair in this and I think I'd like to ask the Premier, are men going to be included in the survey? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Premier.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a Framework for Action on family violence. It includes women; it includes children; it includes men. It's family violence. We're not putting a priority on one or the other. We're looking at all aspects. Now, when the front-line workers want baseline data, I'm sure it's going to include that discussion; who's going to be surveyed, what kind of baseline data do we need and so on. But it is family violence, not against any one sector. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Madam Chair. No, and again, I don't want the folks that are out there that are working in the area of family violence, I want them to understand we are going through this process today in an effort to make things better for the work that they're doing out there in the field and it's oftentimes a very thankless job and I do thank them very much for the job that they provide this territory. So with that, thanks.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Next on the list I have Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I, too, wanted to put a little bit of a focus on the survey and the conference items there. While they were contained in a briefing that committee got, Madam Chair, I don't recall the details myself. So this is not a surprise in here, but I think it would be, it's not very often that money is attached to the descriptions of these things that committee hears about. That comes up now and we're looking at $75,000, for instance, for the survey and I believe Mr. Handley told us that this would cover 750 people. So in one sense it boils down to $100 a person to do a survey. Without knowing the depth or the scope or the methodology, I don't know if that's good value or not.

I would, I guess, make a similar comment about a conference; $120,000 for 120 people is a thousand dollars a person. Madam Chair, good research, well conducted, has great value, and I think the same kind of thing can be said for conferences and meetings. When they're well focussed, they have a good objective and everyone is well prepared. They can, indeed, make consensus and implementing programs very, very successful as opposed to those that aren't. But I think at $200,000 for these two new initiatives, perhaps what committee is questioning here is value for money and wanting to ensure that these are not just efforts to go out and do yet another study health related. The Department of Health, of course, has quite a reputation for doing a lot of studies and conferences too, which I think sometimes are put together as a way of sort of helping some people feel good about what they're doing, but what is the real value to the system, back to the communities and back to the people? Those are the things that I'm challenging in here. I don't want to take this away from the Action Plan on Family Violence, but put a flag on, as I say, making sure we're getting value for money. Because there are tremendous needs on the front lines that even $195,000 could make quite a difference for. Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, for the record I should also state that the

package that was put together on responding to the Framework for Action II on family violence is, as we heard earlier, a question that should go through the business plan. It was initiated through that process. This piece has come through this avenue because of the lateness of our fiscal picture as a result of the federal budget. It will go back into the business plan for the next five years, but what is proposed here, for example, in this funding through the Executive, one is, yes, the development of baseline data, as well as to fund the conference. If you look, some of the additional information we have is it's a territorial leadership and policy forum. So as we proceed forward, we would need to know in what areas should we be highlighting some additional expenditures. So I think that information through this work can be used for that benefit, as we proceed down this path of looking at investing in this package. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Braden.

No further questions, Madam Chair. Thank you.

Thank you. Next I have Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to add my view or just add my thoughts on this topic to sort of enrich the conversation, perhaps. I don't know. Let me just put my two cents into this. In looking at this, at first I looked at this and thought, I guess, it is an item that may raise an eyebrow or two. But if you really look at it, maybe it's the name, maybe they should change the word "conference" to something else because if you look at it as an assembly in the North, it's very important. We put high value in bringing community people together into one place, wherever that might be, to exchange information and to get their input into what's going on on the ground.

I want to tell you, in February, when the Status of Women Council organized a Joining the Circle women's conference, that was a huge undertaking and I believe I made a statement in the House stating that the keynote speaker who came from Toronto, she told me, she said she could not believe how permeating the issue of family violence was. We could not move on with our agenda because no matter what the topic was -- it could have been about community capacity building or it could have been about leadership, how to run for office, it could have been about how to put a proposal together -- just the topic of family violence came up everywhere. The most popular session they had was the healing session. The women that were there felt empowered to learn that other women leaders were going through the same thing and they were also empowered to learn what was being taught at the conference and knowing that they could take that to their communities and do something with that. In fact, out of that conference, the Status of Women Council is organizing a two-day workshop at the end of the month to debrief all that went on and they're going to put up strategies together for the government to act on.

So I'm thinking, I think it's important for us to think of this as a, you know, the community government conferences. There have been a series of conferences, very well organized by NWT Association of Communities, to learn about the new formula and the New Deal for the communities, the whole water and subsidy programs that's quite complex. It's a professional development course, as well as learning, as well as sharing information, as well as crying together. I mean we, all the women had to talk about what they were going through with respect to family violence issues and how the family violence issues are affecting every aspect of our lives in our communities. So I think I could see that if the headline tomorrow is "Government is Approving $195,000 for Conference" that may not look so good. But I think that we know enough in this gathering to know that it costs money to bring people together. I believe it costs 40 to 70 thousand dollars a day to have us meet here. It is important for the people who are caregivers or who are working with people who are suffering from family violence, people who are trying to do something about what to do about our family violence issues, that they gather together. We know that to bring 120 people together, it costs money, and it costs money to travel, it costs money to accommodate them, it costs money to bring people together. It's not just for them to get together to just get together, it is an action place, it is a thinking place, and I'm sure there will be lots of good recommendations coming out of that.

So I just wanted to add that to the context and to also add to a comment made about the fact that we need to address the issue of family violence against men. I do understand that there are men who are victims of family violence and other forms of violence, and the government has a role to play in addressing their needs. But I don't think we should ever lose sight of the fact that the overwhelming majority of victims of family violence are women and overwhelming perpetuators of family violence are men. It's not all men, but that's just the way the stats lie. So I just don't think, in putting forward the good suggestion that government should look after the men who are victims of violence too, we should in any way underestimate or undermine the overwhelming stats that show it is the women who are locked up in a house and raped repeatedly for days and left to...We've had that happen in our communities in the last two days. The most violent crimes committed, in family violence or sexual assaults, are done by men against women. So I just want to make sure that we put this comment in proper context. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. As I stated earlier, this is the initial start of the response by our government towards looking at Framework for Action II. The rest of this will fall through the business plan process. We do need to get some of this information as we proceed and put a framework together on how we would react as a government and where our investments would best be made. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Is there anything further, Ms. Lee? Thank you. Next on the list, I have Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to follow up. I heard what the Premier had to say regarding the survey and the conference. There were about 750 respondents and 120 participants for these two items. I would like to ask the Minister with regard to surveys. I am pretty sure that all the shelters that are across the Territories have intakes that they work with. Can they take those intakes from the region and the communities and say, look, if there are numbers there, it tells us that there is a problem. I am sure that, while the intakes that

they have, it will show that without doing a survey. We could put that money for the front-line workers. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we know that there is a lot of information out there. It is a matter of pooling it all together so that we can use it and how we would prepare or respond in future years as we look at what parts of the framework we would be able to fund. There is information out there that we can use. As highlighted earlier, there is a lot of information out there, but we need to pull it together as well as do some in-depth interviews with individuals as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Pokiak.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thanks for that information, Mr. Minister. Again, I feel very confident that putting $195,000 for the front-line workers so that they can do education and all that prevention of all these things, I think that would be utilized a lot better than doing a survey and a conference. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Pokiak. I guess that was more of a comment than a question. The Department of the Executive, operations expenditures, executive offices, not previously authorized, $199,000. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Madam Chair. For $75,000 they are proposing a family violence survey. I disagree with that. If you want to get a survey of all the family violence that goes on, talk to the people at the front line. I think they will give you a much better survey. Who initiated this request for a survey? Was it the people that provide the services or is it another government initiative? The government seems to like to do surveys and studies. The people on the front line, I am sure, can use this $195,000 to enhance the programs and delivery of programs they already have. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this all comes out of the work that was done back in 2004 when the government released its response to the Coalition Against Family Violence, NWT Action Plan on Family Violence. Our response to that is what we are starting to look at. So it is the government's review of that work and coming forward with some recommendations as a result of that initial work. That is where it is stemming from. The Premier, as well, has more information on that, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Madam Chair. A lot of the recommendations come from the coalition itself. The government is one member on that coalition. There are the groups I mentioned before. What they are trying to do is get a balance between the support for salaries and so on for our front-line workers and training of workers. Just to put more money into workers and not giving the training that is necessary may not be the best arrangement either. So it has to be a balance. The idea of collecting the baseline data came largely from the coalition. They want to know whether or not what they are doing is changing and having an impact on attitudes toward violence, for example, and a number of other areas where what kind of public education programs or campaigns would be most effective. A lot of it comes from the coalition itself. We respect what they are saying. We know that they are experienced people. They are the ones who can give us advice. A lot of it is their advice to us. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to close with the fact that none of us on this side of House is questioning the importance of all the work that these folks out there do. None of us would ever do that. In my particular case, I try to make sure as much funds as possible reach the people on the front line because they are the ones that are providing the service. I have had the opportunity to deal with a few of them. I know some of the stresses that they are under. A lot of it is financially related. So that is the point in my asking the questions on these particular issues, Madam Chair, because I just want to make sure that we don't get too top heavy again in administration and not enough flowing down to the people who actually provide the service. Thank you. It was just a comment.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. That was just a comment. There was no question there. Executive, operations expenditures, executive offices, not previously authorized, $199,000.

Regional operations, not previously authorized, $16,000.

Total executive offices, not previously authorized, $215,000.

Thank you. Executive continued, operations expenditures, Financial Management Board Secretariat, directorate, not previously authorized, $2.623 million.

Government accounting, not previously authorized, $19,000. Mr. Braden.

Madam Chair, one of the items under the directorate, $798,000 is to provide contribution funding associated with the transfer of public housing rental subsidy funding for seniors' assisted living and seniors' caretaker housing units from ECE to the NWT Housing Corporation. Madam Chair, we just went through quite a turnaround here over the last couple of years of moving operation money from the Housing Corporation to ECE; now we are moving some back. I would appreciate an explanation, for the record, of what this $800,000

contribution funding is going to do that otherwise can't be done or can't be done as well, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the initial work in transferring the program from the Housing Corporation over to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment looked at all of the different subsidies that were out there in the housing area and put within the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. After further review of the program, it was felt that a couple of areas would be better situated back within the Housing Corporation that fit with the existing program that they deliver in the area of assisted living for seniors. So you see this pile of the money going back. What was originally part of the original large transfer from the Housing Corporation to Education, Culture and Employment, this piece is going back to the Housing Corporation because of the further review of the subsidy areas. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Braden.

I am sorry. I am no further ahead. What is it paying for? What is this $800,000 supplying, Madam Chair?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. It breaks down into a number of categories. For example, assisted living in seniors' units. The rental subsidy there is about $478,908; independent seniors' caretaker units, $75,948; and O and M for independent seniors' units makes up the remainder of $242,760.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Braden.

Okay. What is the difficulty or what are the issues that ECE is encountering that it cannot administer this along with so many of the other contribution programs that are made through housing? Madam Chair, it's quite a confusing piece of work here. I am just trying to make sure I am not missing anything here.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Madam Chair, as stated, it's money that was originally part of the original transfer, now back to Housing Corporation and deals with the two categories of assisted living for seniors and independent seniors caretaker units. For more of the detail, I believe Mr. Dent can provide it.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. All of the funds were transferred over as part of a global program, but afterwards we discovered that, like most landlords, the Housing Corporation had been providing either free rent or reduced rent to caretakers of buildings. So the buildings had a caretaker who looked after them. That's a Housing responsibility; it's not one of the income support programs. So this wasn't really a subsidy to someone with a low income. So it's more appropriately handled through the Housing Corporation. So since it's a management function making sure that the caretaking of the units is looked after, the way that that's done is through either free or reduced rent to somebody who is the caretaker of the unit, not a unit but a building. We've transferred the money back to the Housing Corporation, so through their local housing authorities they can properly administer the operations of the buildings.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Braden.

How many buildings and how many caretakers are we talking about here, Madam Chair?

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The total number of units is 45. I should add a little more detail. It's not only about the independent seniors' caretaker units. There are only seven of those units. When you look at assisted living for seniors and the way the services are provided, it's level two senior level care provided at the Jimmy Erasmus Centre in Rae-Edzo and support services for the cognitively impaired adults at the Stanley Isaiah Centre in Fort Simpson. So because there is a health attachment to that area, it was felt that it was best not suited to be in public housing but back in the Housing Corporation where both departments can work cooperatively on that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Okay. So we are blending a health issue, housing issue, a staffing issue all in a bundle here. I am beginning to understand now, comprehend the intention here and I don't find any argument with it, but the manner in which it's presented is very obtuse, Mr. Chair. I guess it makes me a bit frustrated in having to deal with these sums because $800,000 is no trifling matter.

I also wanted to ask, Mr. Chair, it's called contribution funding to the NWT Housing Corporation. Is this new contribution funding that we are turning over to the Housing Corporation or is it a transfer from ECE of money that you've already got, so we are just moving it back and forth? Why is it called contribution funding then? Perhaps I may not be paying close enough attention. Is there an offsetting amount somewhere else in the supp? Right now, this looks like new money going into the Housing Corporation, at least the way it's stated here, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chairman, there are a couple of ways this breaks down. One is the $798,000 is not new money. It's in and out. The other portion is offset by, I believe, you are referring to the $1.080 million was your second question. No? Okay, the $798,000 initial amount that was raised is not new money. It's a matter of the way we flow money now because of the recommendations made by the Auditor General of Canada. The money comes through the Financial Management Board Secretariat and is now flowing through FMBS and then to the Housing Corporation.

That's as a result of recommendations from the Auditor General.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Braden.

Okay. Thank you. There is further in the supp an offsetting amount, a similar amount. Thank you. That satisfies my question about new money or just switching pockets here. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think I've exhausted that one. I do hope the Minister has taken some notice to sometimes the degree of information provided and just how clearly stated some of these programs are, these projects are. Mr. Chairman, that's all, thanks.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Financial Management Board Secretariat, directorate, not previously authorized, $2.623 million.

Government accounting, not previously authorized, $19,000.

Total Financial Management Board Secretariat, not previously authorized, $2.642 million.

On to page 8, Human Resources, directorate, not previously authorized, $96,000.

Corporate Human Resources, not previously authorized, negative $101,000.

Total Human Resources, not previously authorized, negative $5,000.