Hence the principle of why justice is blind; it doesn’t look on the size of your army, it looks on the merits of your case. I would like to hear that we’re going to take more of a position of backbone and I would assert that the Minister, when she was a Regular Member, she took more of an aggressive position. I can’t imagine, if she was sitting on this side of the House, that she’d sit and feel comfortable that this government had a letter that said it’s okay, we will talk. I mean, I can’t imagine that being a position of comfort or a position of acceptance. I would ask where is that screaming, kicking Minister who yelled at the old Health Minister, that turned into the Hulk, and is laughing now? But I remember that Minister Lee screaming at Roland to become the Hulk to deal with some of these issues. Well, where is that tenacity from the Health Minister when she was a regular woman, or Regular Member?

---Laughter

Sorry. Someone yelled “wonder woman,” so I got sidetracked there. It sounds like the Minister has taken the soft, cuddly approach: let’s talk. I want a kicking and screaming Minister who demands payment. Would the Minister reconsider her position? Thank you.

I need to see some of those videos, because apparently I was screaming a lot for eight years.

Mr. Chairman, in all seriousness, we understand that this issue is very important. It has been an issue that the Premier and myself have raised with every Minister that has come up here, including the Prime Minister. Every time there is a visiting Minister and we talk about what issues to be brought up, this is on the top of that list, as well as some of the other files that we work on with our federal counterparts. We will continue to push that.

I’ve had a chance to meet with the Minister of Health twice in the last two months and I expect that we will do that again. She is very aware of this

issue, but it’s just that with all that’s going on in Ottawa, we have not been able to do as much as we would like. I expect we could do more now that things are more stabilized. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Lee. Mr. Krutko.

Mr. Chairman, just to follow up on questions I had yesterday in regard to the grants-in-kind. It’s in regard to the Northern Lights Special Care Home purchase. I’d just like some clarification. I notice there are a couple of expenditures under the supp that we’re dealing with later on, but I’d like to know in regard to this facility, I believe it’s a seniors facility in Fort Smith. I’ve toured through the facility and I was under the assumption that this facility was built with federal dollars and is operated by the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation by way of an operational grant that they get. I’d just like to get some clarification on the status of this facility. When was it built, what programs were expenditures on it, and how is this transfer or the purchase from the Town of Fort Smith to the government? Just to get some clarification on this facility in regard to the history of how it came to be, where the money came to build it and exactly what the expenditures are to date. Also, there are dollars that are also in the supplementary appropriation.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Miltenberger.

Mr. Chairman, the facility was built in 1992. The town was the proponent; they got a mortgage from CMHC. Health and Social Services paid contract dollars for the program. The staff were initially all town staff and then a number of years ago, the program itself transferred to Health and Social Services. Then, once the program went, there were renovations required and tied into the hospital master development plan. In order to do that they worked out an arrangement to transfer, take over the land and the mortgage. The government was paying all the costs. The GNWT was paying the costs on an ongoing basis to the town. The circumstances...I’ll let the Minister pick up the story from there, but that’s a basic summary of when the facility was built 17 years ago now, I believe. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Minister Lee.

Mr. Chairman, I will try to answer the next question from the Member. Thank you.

No further comments from the Minister. Mr. Krutko.

I’d like to thank the Minister of Finance for that. Also, there are other facilities similar to this throughout the Northwest Territories. Is the government going to be taking over all those facilities under this type of arrangement, and, if so, which other facilities are out there that have a similar type of arrangement under the agreement through CMHC and also the operational fund? At one time, I know that through the seniors facilities in most of our communities was a joint effort between the Housing Corporation, through CMHC, and the Department of Health. Today we’re still trying to get those types of facilities in our communities. But again, because there is no such program, now most facilities are built either as elder homes but not care homes.

I’d like to state that in regard to the situation with the Joe Greenland Centre in Aklavik, which is a level 3/4 facility, that because of the condition of the home, that basically we have to replace it. But under what program are you going to be able to replace that facility? I’d just like to know are there any other facilities in this type of arrangement that basically the government has now taken over.

Also, in regard to the history of the program, which is now grandfathered, which doesn’t exist anymore, what is this government going to do going forward to replace those other facilities that fall under the same type of program?

There is not a plan for the Department of Health and Social Services or the government to own or buy up facilities being built. This Northern Lights facility situation is unique and is an isolated incident in that the Department of Health and Social Services has been leasing that facility from the town. We give that lease money to Fort Smith Health and Social Services Authority who gave it to the town, and then the town basically pays a mortgage every month. There’s also a CMHC subsidy that has been funding part of that. What we are doing is we are taking over the ownership and paying for the mortgage that was being paid by the lease payments anyway. That ownership question came up because we’re doing major renovations on that and for contract reasons, and the land issue reasons, it was better to have that cleaned up.

With respect to the Joe Greenland Centre, I understand that that building, half of it is owned by the Housing Corp and the other half by Beaufort-Delta Health and Social Services Authority. It is an aging structure.

The Department of Health does not have a comprehensive list of what our capital needs are in terms of long-term care facilities. The Member for Sahtu, for example, is asking about the need to have some facilities in the Sahtu. Part of our action

plans includes getting a list of what the capital needs are in our communities, especially for long-term care facilities. I will be coming forward to standing committee on that as we work toward the next phase of the business planning cycle as well as the capital planning process. Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I asked also, are there other types of facilities throughout the Northwest Territories that are under a similar arrangement by way of government considering looking at taking over? I don’t know about the Avens Centre or other centres similar to that, but that fell under this CMHC program. I know for a fact that most of our seniors homes in our communities were built under that program and a lot of them are aging, like the Minister says, but there is no program there to really have the capital come forward and replace these facilities.

I know another area that they had similar problems was in Fort Good Hope. That facility is aged; they had a flood a number of years ago; there were some structural problems with that. We touched on the Joe Greenland Centre. Then we had a letter from the Minister in November, and basically from the last statement from her letter it says, “In accordance with the integrated service delivery model, residents of long-term care facilities should require Level 3 or 4 care. In order to provide this level of service, the facility will need to be replaced.” So in regard to your letter, when are you considering replacing the Joe Greenland Centre, and exactly where are those capital dollars going to come from?

To answer the Member’s first question, we are not aware of another situation like the one in Fort Smith. I think even the Territorial Dementia Centre is again unique on its own. The property that the Dementia Centre is being built on used to be owned by the GNWT, but we gave that land to YACCS for a dollar so they own the land and we are building the building. I think that that is a different situation.

I agree with the Member that Joe Greenland Centre needs to be replaced and we need to come up with a plan to have a seniors assisted living facility in communities like Aklavik. That would have to come through the regular business planning processes and capital planning process. I have instructed the staff of the department to look at the capital needs of all different regions so that we can start taking an inventory. We have a similar situation happening in Behchoko. There is an aging structure there, with lots of construction problems, that has to be replaced. We heard about Sahtu. We need to start having an inventory and start building this into the capital plan process and I will be doing that. Thank you.

In regard to the Northern Lights Care Facility, was that part of the capital planning process to purchase this outright and not to pay the O and M costs and administration costs? When was that decision made?

This was not part of the capital plan process. The issue arose as we went to tender to do the renovation and the issue of complexities involved in making major renovations and investments into property where we do not own the land or the property, so this is just a measure to fix that. I can assure the Member that we are not spending extra money on that; we are just taking the ownership of it and paying mortgages with money we were paying the town anyway. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. We are on page 8-9, revenue summary, information item. Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the things we seem to cost out is hospital services attributed to First Nations and treaties, and I am just wondering what the actual costs are the territorial government picks up that are specifically billed to Metis care that the policy of this government is to treat equal. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We don’t bill anybody for Metis care. Thank you.

Is there any assessment as to what that would cost? Thank you.

No, Mr. Chairman, that assessment has not been done, as we would have no body to claim that expense to.

I am just wondering, is there any opportunity going forward to look at that. I am just wondering, because if one of the principles of trying to find out where the gaps in the supplementary health programs are to help identify as to where the gaps are for coverage, costs, et cetera, is it on the list of things to do in the next little while. Thank you.

I think it is important for us to make a clear distinction between the medical and hospital services for Indian and Inuit that we bill to DIAND. That is an insured service. That is a medical service that every Canadian gets and every NWT resident gets. It is part of universal health care and we provide that to all our residents. It happens to be that for our residents who qualify, who are either Indian or Inuit category, we are allowed to ask for reimbursement from DIAND. But we would not be doing that for anybody else.

In terms of Metis health benefits under supplementary health, that is a completely different program. We spend about $7.7 million dollars on supplementary health, and supplementary health is different from NIHB, and that is different from Metis health benefits. Thank you.