Thank you. Page 12-19, information item, minerals and petroleum resources, active positions. Agreed?

We are now on page 12-21, energy, activity summary, energy,

operations expenditure summary, $7.229 million. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again I would want to ask the Minister in terms of the energy planning in terms of their intelligence, in terms of their scoping, their reasoning and decision-making in terms of allocating dollars to certain areas where energy is used for community projects. It seems that from the community of Deline at least, they’ve been in the area investing. I don’t know how long you can stay in a feasibility study for the mini-hydro. They claimed they had at least 16 years into that business. There are certain areas that I can’t say right now in terms of the work that they’re doing right now with the mini-hydro project, because I want to leave that for them to work out. But seeing when the energy plans or papers are released, certainly some of the smaller isolated communities with the high costs of energy has been of a long-term planning, and there are other areas that planning went into facilities that have the low costs of energy.

So I’m somewhat perplexed in terms of some of the dollars that are going into the energy planning.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We worked quite closely with the Standing Committee on EDI and we had feedback, and part of the feedback was that we should be more representative in every region, although perhaps there would be some projects that had better opportunity for success. We tried to accommodate that and we tried to provide for projects in every region for territorial programs that would be application-based.

Specifically with regards to Deline, the delay with regard to mini-hydro is that it felt there wasn’t a project put forward that had proven technology. The hydro connectic proposal was for power generation that was significantly more than any actual hydro connectic project that was producing energy. So I guess it wasn’t clear that it was proven technology that worked. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The initiatives that have come forward so far in the books certainly doesn’t seem that there’s proportional representation in terms of the amount of infrastructure going into different energy projects, and you can see it in the budget here. So that’s my bone of contention here in terms of the areas that are seeing where there’s energy that is very high, that there aren’t many projects going in to reduce the costs of energy in those communities or regions.

Mr. Chair, the community of Deline wasn’t aware of this proven mainstream hydro technology. They have contracted with the various consultants to look at it. They were told many times in meetings from the Energy Corp that this is something that they wanted to investigate and get into. The community of Deline has been very patient. For 16 years they’ve been trying to get a mini-hydro facility into their community. They have contacted Deline has two places, one in B.C. and one in Mississippi that has proven that this technology is viable. We seem to be getting stonewalled by the Energy Corp in terms of going ahead with it, so they are getting somewhat frustrated with the Energy Corp and the attitude that they know what is best for our community.

I spoke to the community of Deline and they wanted to work out some of the issues. You know, they don’t want to get into a cat and dog fight with our government. They want to know what is best for the community and they can go ahead with it. There are lots of things that I shouldn’t be saying here, that I am not going to say here because that is from the community of Deline. I am hearing from the Minister of this government here. So they want to move ahead with it, and they feel that there needs to be some very open communication with this government in terms of moving ahead with this project. There are a number of factors that Deline has been up against and I think with this here, I think there should have been some consideration.

I do appreciate what the Minister has said in the budget, the Minister of Finance, in terms of their area of feasibility and other areas we are looking at. Those are long-term projects to do some work, but I think Deline is passed that stage and they actually should be having a mini-hydro project in this year or at least last year in Bear River. This hydro project should have been on the ground and running already, so that is why I am getting somewhat perturbed as to the energy planning in the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, in terms of the Deline mini-hydro project as one example, in our region there are four other communities that are looking for help also. But this one here, because they have been in the books for awhile and it has been on the table with the two organizations, could we see something like that in terms of this budget? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are committed, and feel like the Member, that small communities, we feel wherever possible, if we can generate mini-hydro, we would be very supportive. We have already committed to going to the community and meeting with the principals and also to go and check out these sites that have been indicated by the community, and certainly if it

works, then we will support it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. Moving on, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my questions are in regards to grants and contributions. I note in the grants and contributions you have different sections. Before we used to have a line item called mini-hydro for communities. I see we have moved away from that. Now we are basically talking about energy contributions. But again, I noted in there, I can see the Fort Providence Transmission Line Project is in there, but there is also $2.5 million dollars for the Taltson River Hydro Electricity Expansion, and I think that, for me, I think it would probably be more appropriate for the Fort Providence transmission line to be in the Taltson electric review stuff, because part of the review they are doing the feasibility study and also environmental baseline work that is needed for that expansion. I think that the Taltson project right now, my understanding was it had something like 10 megawatts of surplus power, but a lot of that power is now being used to electrify heat in buildings in Fort Smith and also potential mining activity around the old Pine Point site. I am just wondering is there enough electricity that is going to be there and also how much are we going to lose by extending the line from Enterprise or Hay River to Fort Providence by way of line loss because of the 150 kilometres. We are talking about extending the line that far. I am wondering, why was that not considered as part of the Taltson review process, because the power is going to come from Taltson. The line you are talking about is part of the Taltson hydro line that is already in place. You are going to have to extend that and I think that they have more expertise in that area than having to try to bring experts in from under the energy contribution dollars. I am wondering, is that something that has been considered in light of the review of the Taltson project and what happens if the Taltson expansion doesn’t go forward because we cannot find power purchase agreements? What happens to the surplus power that is presently there and that is presently being used in Hay River to heat buildings and also the potential in case there is an expansion in Hay River for more power, what happens then?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it is important to realize that the Fort Providence Expansion Project is independent of the Taltson Hydro Expansion Project. It will be predicated on using existing surplus power from the Taltson Dam. In work that we are undertaking, planning work with Northland Utilities, and what the

government is looking at contributing to if the project goes ahead, would be the incremental costs of replacing the diesel generating plants in Fort Providence, Dory Point and Kakisa. So it would not be part of the Taltson Expansion Project. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I had to chuckle to myself; I mean, I don’t see you replacing the power generations in Fort Providence and Kakisa. You are going to need a backup system in those communities regardless if you have hydro or not. What happens when the hydro goes down? You are still going to need a residual power source in those communities, so you will still need those diesel turbines to be on standby in case the power goes down, like you do here in Yellowknife and other communities in the Northwest Territories. So, again, I find it kind of odd that we would replace the existing turbines. If anything, you would keep the turbines and replace them with electric turbines, which basically in this case you would have to have a residual power source.

For example, what would happen in regards to the problem we ran into in Behchoko, in which they were out of power for quite some time because there were downed power lines and they couldn’t get their system to run. So I think you do have to have a contingency plan in most cases. But again, this is all dependent on the construction of the bridge across the Mackenzie for this to take place.

I would just like to know, is there going to be a toll or charge to the residents for having the power crossing the bridge, and will there be a charge to tie onto that bridge and what is the cost of that?

Obviously we need backup power in every community and what is being proposed here is we would have hydro-powered electricity which would replace diesel-generated electricity which would result in a decrease in greenhouse gas emissions and hopefully result in much cheaper power. As far as whether there is going to be tolls to go over the Mackenzie River bridge, I think it is too preliminary at this stage. I don’t think there has been any of those discussions. We are in the planning stages. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

If we haven’t even planned this out yet and we don’t even know if we are going to get charged, why are we going forward with this proposal until we know what all the cost factors are going to be for this initiative? I mean, you are talking about a major expansion in regards to a transmission line, then crossing a bridge, then basically you have to ensure that you have enough power, which will come from the Taltson system, to be able to ensure that you have power that will meet the demands of people in Hay River, Fort

Smith and other communities in regards to future needs. I think that, if anything, you have to have a contingency plan in place to ensure that all those questions are being asked before we go forward with this project, so that is why I am asking, why couldn’t that have been part of the Taltson review. Again that is all based on power purchase agreements. Do we have an agreement in regards to a transmission line? Do we have enough power there that can basically fill the void in regards to the surplus power that is already there?

I know there is an issue in regards to...there is talk about Hay River looking at some kind of a pipe plant in regards to that being expanded. But the question was, is there even enough power using the surplus power from the Taltson to basically provide that industry with the power that is going to be needed to develop a pipe coating plant in Hay River? These things all have to be answered before you can make a decision on how much power is there. But, more importantly, is there really enough power in regards to future needs with the Taltson project that is there now, without going forward in regards to the mines shutting down and not signing on to power purchase agreements? So I think there are too many if’s in this equation to make that decision.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is exactly why we are only proposing to spend $200,000 this year, because we are going to be using that money for planning purposes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Could the Minister give me breakdown on that $2.5 million in regards to the energy contributions? I know you have Lutselk’e mini-hydro, Whati mini-hydro, Fort Providence transmission line, Bear feasibility, in-stream hydro projects and the expanded residual heat. So could you give us a breakdown of all those projects and where they go and what are those projects?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe we are on 12-22.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. The details are on 12-22, the dollars are also represented on 12-21. Would Mr. Krutko agree that we complete this page and address it on the next page?

Six million five hundred fifty-five thousand dollars. Give me a breakdown on that.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister McLeod.

Yes, it is the second number in line under grants and contributions on page 12-21. I am sorry, I thought he said $2.555 million. So, to Lutselk’e mini-hydro, $250,000;

Whati mini-hydro transmission line, $250,000; Fort Providence transmission line, $200,000; Bear River feasibility, $100,000, in-stream hydro project, $250,000; expansion of residual heat, $1.5 million; for a total of $2.550 million.

Thank you, Minister McLeod. We will be moving on now to Mr. Beaulieu.