Okay, we’re on page 13-22, grants and contributions, forest management, activity summary, grants, $100,000. Agreed?

Contributions, total contributions, $30,000.

Total grants and contributions, $130,000. Agreed?

Information item, forest management, active positions. Agreed?

Moving on to page 13-25, wildlife, activity summary, operations expenditure summary, $14.323 million. Agreed?

Mr. Yakeleya.

The issue here that’s before us and we have dealt with this in a number of areas, I wanted to ask about the Bathurst caribou regarding initiatives in terms of monitoring this herd in this specific area and the ban of this herd in this area. I wanted to ask the Minister about the monitoring efforts. I heard on the radio that there are wildlife officers out there, community members are out there working for ENR. I guess myself in looking at this issue, the question is how is it that we had over 100,000 caribou and then four years later we have only tens of thousands of caribou? Is there any idea? If you look at the numbers and that, where did the caribou go? I’m having a hard time

understanding the decline being so drastic. What happened?

Minister of Environment.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As we’ve indicated right from the start, there’s a whole number of factors that have affected the Bathurst herd. It exists in the most heavily populated part of the Territory. There are extensive road networks now where there never used to be. There are hunting pressures. There is resource development. There are climate change issues. These have all combined to affect things like the general health of the animals, the calf survival rate, the birthrate of calves and how many do survive. There are predation impacts as well. When you combine them all together and when they’re already on a downward trend dating back to the 1980s, those factors continue to have a greater and greater impact. For example, when you’re down to 30,000 animals and you’re taking normally 7,000 to 10,000 animals out of the herd a year, that hunting pressure alone over the course of three years would pretty well put an end to the herd. There’s a whole number of factors. It’s very complex but those are some of the factors.

Fair enough. Certainly with the impact of the ice roads and roads that go to the mines, they have up to 12,000 loads per year. If you do the calculations that are six minutes apart going right through prime caribou land. You have three megaprojects such as the diamond mines where there’s development and work that they’re doing there to extract the diamonds out for their own purposes. Then you have the hunting issues with 11 outfitters that have the commercial hunt there. Just on hunting itself being open to other residents around the North Slave region, that’s quite an impact on the herd. Then you also claim that 7,000 to 10,000 heads per year if we allow it to happen.

I’m trying to think now in terms of the issue of aboriginal people. I don’t know if they take 7,000 to 10,000 caribou a year. I’m not sure that’s something that I can accept right now. I think the major impacts that haven’t been talked about are the roads and mining development and the outfitters. However, it’s really hard for me to look at this for bringing this down heavy on the aboriginal people. It’s their way of life. It’s not their livelihood. They don’t have caribou to sell it for commercial purposes. It’s their way of life. I’m having a hard time accepting the rationale for this issue here. Has the Minister worked out with the Yellowknives Dene or come to some type of agreement as he’s talked about in the House a couple days ago to work closely with them to see how to resolve this issue?

I would just like to point out a fact that as these discussions go on it becomes more important every day. In this

part of the Northwest Territories there is no harvest management plan for the Bathurst herd or the Ahiak or the Bluenose-East as it comes down into the Tlicho territory. The critical one is the Bathurst herd. We wouldn’t be having this discussion in the Sahtu, Gwich’in, or Inuvialuit regions because they have agreements, they have co-management boards, and they’ve got processes. What’s clearly evident here and is incumbent upon us once we get through this hunting season and before next hunting season is to have that type of agreement. In regard to this current circumstance and the discussions with the Yellowknives, we had conversations today with National Chief Bill Erasmus and we’ve agreed to a process to get some people in a room to hopefully resolve this current circumstance, if all goes well, by this week or next week.

The Minister is correct that there is no management plan in this area for caribou. Whether it’s the Bathurst or Ahiak, there’s just no plan at all for caribou. Except we’re waiting for the Wekeezhii Renewable Resources Board to come forward and make a decision. I’ve seen the joint proposal. I think it’s a really good joint proposal. I think it’s something that’s really workable. However, in saying that, I still have difficulty defining the Bluenose-East, West, Bathurst, Ahiak caribou. I know the difference in Woodland caribou in the Mackenzie Mountains because they’re pretty big. Has the department done any DNA testing to know which caribou is which to identify the herds? I’m having a hard time with the elders saying that caribou is caribou. How do we start labelling the different caribou?

The herd definition is done through where the animals, the females go to calve. There has been DNA work on the herds and there are differences, apparently. But they aggregate to calve in the same areas and there are calving grounds established, usually up along the Arctic Coast. In the collared animals that they do have, they show very great fidelity to going back to the same areas. As we have our work and methodology reviewed by the Alberta Research Council, the science in the circumpolar world that deals with caribou has some fairly standard methodology when it comes to defining herds that way.

We’re on page 13-25, wildlife, operations expenditure summary, $14.323 million.

Page 13-26, activity summary, wildlife, grants and contributions, contributions, $338,000.

Page 13-27, activity summary, information item, wildlife, active positions.