This is page numbers 5095 - 5126 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was work.

Topics

The House met at 1:40 p.m.

---Prayer

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Good afternoon, colleagues. Welcome back to the Chamber. Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers’ statements. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Minister’s Statement 49-16(5): Devolution
Ministers’ Statements

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The devolution of decision-making authorities over public lands and waters from Canada to the Northwest Territories has been a matter of debate and negotiation for much of my lifetime.

Our strong belief is that NWT residents must have the capacity and authority to protect and manage public lands in the Northwest Territories to ensure that our Territory’s abundant resources are developed in a sustainable and responsible manner, and that NWT residents realize the financial and economic benefits from development in their Territory.

This government has worked to put in place resources, tools and processes to prepare and advance our government, our people and our Territory to the point where we now have a Devolution and Resource Revenue Sharing Agreement-in-Principle within our reach.

On Friday it was reported in the media that the chief negotiators for Canada and the Northwest Territories have initialled a draft AIP and recommended it to their principals. Regional aboriginal governments have been invited and supported to participate in the negotiations leading up to this draft AIP.

The draft AIP is a substantial document and our negotiators have provided until October 31st for all

parties to consider the agreement and determine if they want to proceed as signatories.

In the meantime, I would like to provide NWT residents with an update on the progress that has been made on this file in recent months.

Mr. Speaker, early in this government I suggested devolution could be put on the back burner if we could not find enough common interest to continue negotiations. We found this common purpose at our regional aboriginal leaders table.

An inclusive negotiation process has progressed over the last two years involving representatives from all aboriginal governments, as well as the governments of Canada and the Northwest Territories.

We have actively worked in this forum towards a devolution and resource revenue sharing agreement that is in the interest of all NWT residents.

In September a draft agreement-in-principle was brought forward by our chief negotiators built on an agreement presented jointly to Canada in 2007 by the GNWT and four of our Territory’s aboriginal governments.

While a draft AIP is not binding, it provides the necessary parameters for negotiations leading to a final agreement on devolution and, at long last, the transfer of authority over public lands and waters in the NWT.

Mr. Speaker, I have said all along that without devolution, our future remains more of the same: remaining dependent on Ottawa to make the major decisions about resource development in our Territory while watching the revenues from that development continue to flow south.

We have waited a long time to consider this critical step in our political development. We are at a sensitive and critical juncture in this process.

Regional aboriginal governments are determining their participation in a draft AIP. Members of this House are being briefed. It is important that all of us understand the magnitude and positive potential of this draft AIP.

In the weeks ahead, this government will provide more information on the AIP and its provisions. However, while a draft is under consideration by parties, I ask that we all respect and support the established process. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Minister of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Mr. Bob McLeod.

Bob McLeod

Bob McLeod Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is Small Business Week, an opportunity to recognize and celebrate entrepreneurs and their businesses across the Northwest Territories. I would also like to recognize Co-op Week and the 16 cooperatives that serve residents in the Northwest Territories.

Small businesses play a vital role in the economy of our communities and our Territory. They provide products, services, knowledge and skills that are the foundation of sustainable local economies and enhance our quality of life. Mr. Speaker, spend some time in any of our communities and you will find the heart of local economies lies with our entrepreneurs and the small and medium-sized businesses they operate.

As jurisdictions across Canada celebrate Small Business Week I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the contributions that these businesses make to the Northwest Territories economy. From the one person home-based business to the entrepreneur who took an idea and turned it into a business employing dozens of Northerners, our small and medium-sized enterprises consistently punch above their weight when it comes to the impact they have on our economy.

These businesses create jobs and wealth in all sectors and in all five regions of our Territory. Ranging from traditional economic activities like trapping and basket making to manufacturing and agriculture, we see the residents of the Northwest Territories taking advantage of the economic opportunities this land has to offer.

The Government of the Northwest Territories understands the vital role our small and medium-sized businesses play in keeping our economy vibrant and strong. That is why we have increased our investment in the Support for Entrepreneurs and Economic Development Policy to $3.5 million for 2010-2011. That is why we have developed programs like the Tourism Product Diversification and Marketing Program, which has seen this government distribute more the $4 million in assistance to tourism businesses since 2007.

Mr. Speaker, one of the five goals of the 16th Legislative Assembly is to have a diversified economy that provides all communities and regions with opportunities and choices. It is an important goal and it is one this government remains focused on. Through our continued commitment to develop programs and services that help our small and medium-sized businesses succeed, and through the skill, intelligence and hard work of our entrepreneurs, we can realize that goal. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Lafferty.

Jackson Lafferty

Jackson Lafferty Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment is pleased to share news about the Aboriginal Student Achievement Initiative that focuses on increasing accomplishments of aboriginal students across the Northwest Territories.

The success of all students is important for the Northwest Territories. However, aboriginal students have been lagging behind non-aboriginal students. While we are making progress on this challenge, we nonetheless want to enhance the improvement.

Mr. Speaker, the initiative’s long-term goal is to develop and implement a territorial plan to help eliminate the achievement gap between aboriginal and non-aboriginal students. We need a plan to ensure all children have the opportunity to develop the skills, knowledge and ability needed for the future. I believe this plan will help us achieve a well-educated population able to meet the needs of our future economic well-being.

The Aboriginal Student Achievement Initiative Working Group was established in April 2009. Partners include Aurora College, district education councils, aboriginal governments, the NWT Literacy Council, the NWT Teachers’ Association, the Native Women’s Association, and the departments of Justice and Health and Social Services. The working group helped direct the initiative’s focus and developed the following priorities:

early childhood and child care;

student and family support;

literacy;

and

aboriginal language curriculum and resource development.

Mr. Speaker, with the assistance from the divisional education councils, I am holding a Minister’s forum in each region this school year. We are using the working group’s priorities as the basis to facilitate discussion and partnerships with and between local and regional aboriginal and education leaders.

The first regional meeting took place in the Sahtu region from September 28th to the 30th . It went very

well and had a great turnout. Many community and regional leaders attended all three days of discussions, including my colleague MLA Mr. Norman Yakeleya. The level of engagement from the participants was outstanding, with support for building community connections as a common theme.

Community forums held on the third day of meetings gave special attention to looking at what can be done at the local level. Aboriginal leaders and educators from the same communities identified education issues and developed plans of action. Attendees made a commitment to start moving on plans and working toward short-term goals.

We intend to keep Members informed of our progress as we work towards healthier, successful aboriginal students and informed, involved parents and community partners.

We also want to commend the Aboriginal Student Achievement Initiative Working Group for developing the important priorities to improve student success.

Mr. Speaker, I look forward to participating in more discussion on aboriginal student success over the next several months at the regional Minister’s forums. We have already made progress and I’m eager to see our students improve even more in the future. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Ms. Lee.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Minister of Health and Social Services

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Family violence is the deliberate use of force to control another person. Abusers do not just lose their tempers or simply have problems with anger management, they choose to hurt and control their victims.

Family violence is a community issue; it takes a community response. I would like to highlight two initiatives that the Department of Health and Social Services has spearheaded with the Coalition Against Family Violence as a part of the NWT Family Violence Action Plan Phase II.

Mr. Speaker, the first is the recent release of Supporting Northern Women. This curriculum is a sustainable in-house training resource for front-line shelter workers. It is also useful to any professional working with clients who have experienced family violence. Developing this curriculum took a collaborative effort between non-government organizations and government to build capacity for shelter workers across the NWT. Our shelters provide emergency housing, safety planning and help with the applications for emergency protection orders. Because of them, women and children have a safe place to live while they think about what their next best step is.

Mr. Speaker, the second initiative that I would like to draw your attention to is the recent work undertaken by the Yellowknife Interagency Family Violence Protocol Committee. This committee

works to develop a more coordinated response to adult victims of family violence and is made up of representatives from various government departments and front-line service provider agencies.

Mr. Speaker, in 2009 the committee began to implement the use of the Ontario Domestic Assault Risk Assessment in family violence cases, known as ODARA. ODARA is a very simple to use risk assessment tool that calculates whether a man who assaulted his partner will assault her again in the future. It is useful in safety planning with women and can be used during bail hearings and court processes. ODARA allows service providers from a wide variety of backgrounds to talk about risk in the same way. They can make more consistent and informed decisions about the best way to help clients. Strong leadership is important to this project. Since 2009, 99 front-line workers, 140 RCMP members and 17 Crown prosecutors from across the NWT have been trained to use ODARA. Another train-the-trainer session will be held later this month. This tool will also be useful with other initiatives that are being developed, like the program for men who use violence.

Mr. Speaker, family violence is a serious matter. It is important for all of us to send the message that it is not acceptable. It does not happen by accident. Abusive people know exactly what they are doing. We need to treat family violence as deliberate. Wellness is a goal identified under our strategic document A Foundation for Change, more specifically increasing support and services for people who experience family violence.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased with the work that is being done to fight family violence. I know we are on the right track and are making a real difference in the lives of the victims and their families. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to advise Members that the Honourable Michael Miltenberger will be absent from the House today, tomorrow and Wednesday to attend the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment meeting in St. John’s, Newfoundland. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Item 3, Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to address the issue of common sense in health care delivery decisions and the opportunity to save money and improve outcomes.

Starting with an example, my constituent`s daughter is currently a student in Victoria. She has the basic NWT health coverage which is available to students. She has a history of stage 4 cancer beginning at age seven and her survival is considered a bit of a miracle. Now 27, she learned that because of treatment received, she is at risk for developing a secondary cancer. She was asked to go to Vancouver this fall for a follow-up at the B.C. Cancer Agency.

Medical Travel advised that the ferry trip, food and accommodation would not be provided since she was not a resident in Yellowknife. Further inquiries to the Inuvik office confirmed that no funding would be provided. They did note that if she was a resident in Yellowknife, her flights to and from Edmonton would be covered, as well as some living expenses. Mr. Speaker, this would have cost far more than a return ferry trip to Vancouver. Where is the common sense here?

Inuvik confirmed that this same scenario occurred to a student in Grande Prairie last summer. How is it that students are not properly covered when they go away to school? There is a similar lack of common sense in the situation with the MS patient in Hay River that is profiled by my colleague for Hay River South.

Mr. Speaker, there is a desperate need for some flexibility and horse sense here. Everyone understands the needs for rules and routine procedures, but why can we not institute a process for bumping up decisions when there are clearly options for reduced cost and better medical outcomes such as prevention, early diagnosis or treatment?

Every one of my colleagues have been frustrated with situations brought to the Minister where savings, prevention and better medical treatment could have been achieved, but because it was against the rules, the Minister claims she cannot make an exception. At a minimum, we need a process that gives a patient the option of coming up with cheaper medical travel when travel is needed, and the opportunity for system approval of this. Savings might be from a closer location for treatment, a less costly though perhaps a bit slower form of travel, or just staying at a friend’s, with compensation that is much reduced from that of a hotel room.

Mr. Speaker, let’s put some common sense and flexibility into our health system. Let’s change our preference from bureaucracy to a strong focus on prevention, resolution of medical issues and opportunities for reduced costs. Mahsi.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

Deh Cho Bridge Project
Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously the days are getting much shorter and the weather is turning cold. Snow is on the ground both here in Yellowknife and at the Mackenzie River crossing at Fort Providence.

Back in July when it was much warmer, Mr. Krutko, Mr. Abernethy and I had the opportunity to tour the Deh Cho Bridge Project in Fort Providence. Work was continuing on the piers and the approaches, but there was no steel anywhere on site. We were told then that the steel would be showing up sometime in mid-September, but it didn’t.

It is now the third week of October. I would like to know when exactly the steel will show up in Fort Providence. The Minister and the department both are still adamant that the bridge would be operational in November of next year. I hope they are correct.

The reason I remain so concerned, Mr. Speaker, is that if we miss the date, it will cost us at a minimum $8 million in debt servicing cost and, Mr. Speaker, aren’t we expecting costs to construct this 1,100 metre steel bridge in Arctic conditions to go up?

Mr. Speaker, when talking about potential costs to this government, where exactly is the construction audit at? Will the Minister be reporting back to the standing committee or this House on the findings of that construction audit? It was supposed to take two months and it has been six months. We haven’t heard anything. If we are paying for costs for that audit, has it cost us more than we budgeted for?

I recently visited the Department of Transportation’s website and I didn’t find a summary or a breakdown of funding sources for the annual operation of the bridge. Mr. Speaker, originally the government stated it would commit $1.8 million for the Deh Cho Bridge Project, which was the actual cost to operate the ferry and maintain the ice crossing at Fort Providence on an annual basis, and the decision of the last government, which would be to commit another $2 million annually to the project.

With the delays in getting the project complete, these numbers have changed. Mr. Speaker, so have projected toll revenues. Just last September the Minister and department stated that toll revenues would be $5.1 million per year, and just recently that number had fallen to $3.2 million. What was a $3.8 million contribution, Mr. Speaker,

has risen to over $5 million. The real economics of the project...

Deh Cho Bridge Project
Members’ Statements

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Mr. Ramsay, your time for your Member’s statement has expired.

Deh Cho Bridge Project
Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

---Unanimous consent granted

Deh Cho Bridge Project
Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

The real economics of the project should also be put on the Transportation website as well, and I’ll have questions for the Minister at the appropriate time. Thank you.

Deh Cho Bridge Project
Members’ Statements

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Ms. Bisaro.

Anti-Poverty Summit
Members’ Statements

Wendy Bisaro

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I recently had the good fortune to attend the very first NWT Anti-Poverty Summit. I was one of about 80 participants; participants representing 20 different NWT communities and 29 NWT organizations. This event was organized, planned and developed by two social justice non-government organizations: Alternatives North and the NWT YWCA.

The summit explored the issue of poverty in the NWT, what it is and what it is not, looked at the efforts currently being taken to tackle poverty, which ones work and which ones do not, and determined how we can move forward on anti-poverty.

Attendees heard from well-known advocates and leaders in the field, as well as a federal politician who has a motion to eradicate poverty before the House of Commons, from each other, and, last but not least, from comedian Mary Walsh, a long-time advocate against poverty in our country. It was two days of intense discussion by people passionate about their work and committed to improving the lives of NWT residents who have to endure poverty.

The summit summary, Mr. Speaker, states that eliminating poverty must become the government’s top priority and that everyone must be involved for any actions to succeed. The development of a government Anti-Poverty Strategy called for in the motion passed in this House in February is of paramount importance and it must be based in legislation, not policy. Without an anti-poverty act, we can expect that long-term coordinated efforts and accountability will both be lacking, and the development of any strategy or legislation must involve all parties. It will not succeed if it’s developed in isolation by government.

Mr. Speaker, a report will be prepared with the priorities identified and the recommendations made during the summit. That report will be presented to this Assembly in the near future. It will provide a thorough review of where we are in relation to

poverty in the NWT, and it should be a starting point for further work for the next steps.

In May of this year, in a statement to the House, the Premier committed to the development of an overarching discussion paper. It’s now time for the Premier and this government to act on those words and begin the work that will eliminate poverty in the NWT. I will have questions for the Premier at the appropriate time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Anti-Poverty Summit
Members’ Statements

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, have some issues in regard to the devolution process which has been reached between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government with no involvement of the Dene and Metis up the Mackenzie Valley.

Mr. Speaker, the Dene/Metis Comprehensive Claim was based on a 1988 agreement-in-principle, which was signed the same day as the devolution agreement was signed between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the Government of Canada. In regard to having those two agreements signed on the same day was because the Dene/Metis were not able to negotiate participation agreements that are in the Inuvialuit Agreement and the agreement that’s in place in Nunavut.

The whole intention of having those agreements in the Dene/Metis claim was because the Dene/Metis wanted to have some assurances that they were going to be able to negotiate elements of those agreements.

Mr. Speaker, the intention of the devolution of oil and gas and minerals and the transfer to the government of provincial-like authorities is to manage those resources in the interests of all Northerners and all regions in the Northwest Territories, including First Nations. At the same time, First Nations can be assured that the transfer will not abrogate or derogate from any existing treaty, aboriginal rights or land claims, and also the protection under Section 35 of the Canadian Constitution.

By excluding the aboriginal groups from these negotiations and now going forward with simply the majority of two, which should consist of eight aboriginal organizations in the Northwest Territories, is basically a movement with a minority consensus and not having the majority of members on side or even, in this case, a simple minority.

We’ve talked about working together with our partners, working together with the people of the Northwest Territories. When the aboriginal people

of the Northwest Territories, who make up 50 percent of our population and are talking about self-government negotiations for land claims and the implementation of existing land claims which clearly stipulate in the land claims agreements the Government of the Northwest Territories shall negotiate with those aboriginal groups when it comes to the Northern Accord and devolution.

At the appropriate time I will have questions for the Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to also talk about the draft agreement-in-principle for devolution and resource revenue sharing that has been achieved between the federal government negotiators and the GNWT negotiators.

As long as I have been a Member of this House, the Regular Members, and maybe even the Cabinet Ministers, have literally ground on whoever the leader was to advance the agenda of the Northwest Territories when it comes to resource revenue sharing and devolution. We told Joe Handley that he should be like Ghandi and walk to Ottawa to make a statement how we should have northern resources controlled in the North, as the federal government continues to be the gatekeeper on the development and management of our resources, and how as development proceeds and advances that our chances of getting the kind of deal that we need would actually probably diminish.

When we look at an opportunity like the Mackenzie Gas Project that’s ahead of us, and you look at many other projects, and you look at the royalties that those kinds of projects could generate and how we in the North could share in the benefits of that, it’s pretty exciting and it’s pretty amazing.

I am not here to say that I represent anybody other than my constituency and we haven’t even had a chance to discuss this yet, but listening to Mr. Krutko it sounded like he was representing the voice of the aboriginal people of the Northwest Territories. I’m here as an MLA and I’m not here to collectively speak for anybody. I will say that we have an opportunity before us. It is a draft. It is an agreement-in-principle. It is not a final document. I think it would be responsible on all of our parts to look at this very seriously.

I, for one -- as Mr. Krutko often says -- would like to congratulate the government and congratulate this Premier for putting together...

---Applause

...a credible team of negotiators that went to Ottawa and negotiated those federal negotiators right to the edge of their mandate and came back here with something for us to talk about. We’ve got something to talk about. Let’s show the leadership we won’t ruin this or blow this thing up before it even gets out of the gate.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Jacobson.

Jackie Jacobson

Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m very glad to see that after almost 30 years of work there’s an agreement-in-principle for devolution of our lands, resources and royalties. The Northwest Territories has hit a huge milestone. There will be many opportunities for the people to come out of this.

We have always talked about our land and our future, but the federal government has been controlling all major developments that take place. The federal government also takes all the royalties. That’s just wrong. Millions of dollars every year, dollars that should be supporting our government and aboriginal governments.

We must not forget the control of our lands and resources, and regulating access to our land, and ensuring that the environment is protected. I believe we can do a better job than the federal government.

Doing this work means hundreds of new jobs in the Northwest Territories and all the benefits that will come with them. There will be opportunities for our people. In the long run I believe Northerners will be doing even the highly technical jobs that would be filled with Southerners first. Growth means opportunity.

We’re still years from getting that control, that money that those jobs when the agreement-in-principle is signed. Signing this is the next step toward finally getting this job done. We need to have the courage to move ahead, the courage to make improvements, to make the deal and improvements for all of our people.

I’m in favour of the AIP. I believe we can work together with aboriginal governments on a better deal for all of us. There’s just great potential in this benefit for all communities.

We just finished doing our business plans. We all know how tight this government’s finances are. We know how hard it’s going to make the needs of our communities for jobs, education and health care. In the long run devolution can help us meet these needs and we must be thinking about the long run, not just the short-term political agendas.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Today I’d like to speak to you about the school playground in Fort Simpson. This fall, at the start of the school year, many parents and children at Bompas Elementary and Thomas Simpson School in Fort Simpson were concerned about the state of the schools’ playground. It seems that, especially over the summer months, the playground was used by drinkers, marked up by graffiti artists, and generally vandalized. There were broken liquor bottles on the ground and rude pictures marked on the buildings and equipment. There was litter and garbage everywhere.

Some parents and children helped to clean the playground. Local school staff and Public Works and Services staff have made a good effort to get the playground clean and ready for the start of the school year. Public Works and Services and the RCMP are looking at ways to increase the security of the playground so that it is not used for drinking parties in the summer.

The parents group met with myself and Mr. Sean Whelly, the mayor of Fort Simpson, and detailed their dissatisfaction with the state of the school grounds. I did take the time to inform the Minister of Education and the Minister of Public Works and Services for immediate action to address these concerns. I’m glad that they were both responsive and corrected some items, as well as a big thanks to the staff of the school and parents who saw a need and made the effort to respond.

The question remains: How could we have let our school playground and facilities become this littered and in a mess? There must be a plan in place to ensure that this never happens again. The community takes pride in our school; our government must recognize this as well. At the appropriate time I will raise this issue with our Ministers.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I rise to speak about the draft devolution resource revenue sharing deal.

Imagine my surprise that parts of this significant landmark for the Northwest Territories was quoted on CBC last Friday. Imagine, we could be at the very brink of moving closer to a provincial type of

government and we don’t know yet 100 percent if all the aboriginal governments are on side with us. Are we going to initial this historical deal with or without them? Is this not a hassle-free approach to becoming a legitimate-sized government? Will this approach leave out the recognitions of aboriginal governments? I hear the drums beating.

How is this going to affect our relationship with the aboriginal governments in the North in regard to the treaties, the land claims, and the self-government negotiations? Where is the written confirmation that our aboriginal governments are partners and in support of this deal? Imagine the power of having all the aboriginal governments and this public government initial this agreement. We’ll be speaking with one voice, no question about it.

We have a chance to bring everyone under one tent. No one has to be left out or separate from this deal. We cannot take the “do alone” approach. We all have people in our communities for the very first time hearing about some of the details, thanks to CBC. These people are concerned about how this will play out in their lives. Do we not want them to know the details of their lives and their children’s children’s lives that will be altered?

We strive to be both an accountable and transparent government. Why are we doing this in a manner that looks like a backroom deal? We must be up front and honest in our dealings. We need to listen to our people. We have a responsibility to our northern counterparts to include them in our discussions. Isn’t that one of our goals: a strong and independent North built on partnership? We see beyond our lives and know for certain that when we all have governments on equal ground we stand a chance to make great waves on the lives of the people in the North. United we stand, divided we fall; and fall we will should we proceed without our partnership with the aboriginal governments.

I will state again, as many of my colleagues have done time and time again, about accountability and transparency. I say, Mr. Premier, give the people the respect and dignity to have a say in their destiny.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Mr. Yakeleya, your time for your Member's statement has expired.

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

---Unanimous consent granted

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

I say to Mr. Premier, give the people the respect and dignity to have a say in their destiny. Give each resident in the North the opportunity to voice their opinions on this deal.

We must move forward on the path of unity and sometimes this takes time. That’s what we have today: time to know how this deal is going to go down in history to be proud or to be chapters of

regrets. I ask the government to take their time on this deal.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Beaulieu.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As we know, the transfer of the Public Housing Program to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment experience did not work. The transfer was meant to harmonize the Public Housing Program and the Income Support Program, but this was not achieved and, if anything, it had the opposite effect and created much more problems for public housing tenants.

As a result, the Public Housing Program was transferred back to the NWT Housing Corporation; however, the old rules are still in place from before the transfer took place and now remain in place. It is these guidelines that have been the source of all the problems. So what we thought as MLAs was a victory by moving the program back was short lived.

Under these guidelines there are more and more public housing tenants now continuing to accumulate greater arrears. These tenants who are already finding it difficult to make ends meet are now slowly losing hope of ever being free of the thousands of dollars of rental arrears. In many communities unemployed tenants are being charged maximum or economic rent because they are not following the rules that we as MLAs thought were thrown out with the transfer back to the local housing organizations. However, this was not the case. Many of these tenants are still the same tenants that were in public housing before the transfer to ECE and now, because of the new rules, they find themselves continuing to accumulate arrears.

This government must completely correct the mistakes made by past governments and must fully move back to the old system where tenants on income support or tenants who are simply unemployed are charged $32, not $1,800. I thought this government understood the problem was not with the people that were delivering the program, it was the program itself. We must go back to the original program.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Abernethy.

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My statement today is very similar to that of my colleague Mr. Beaulieu.

Over the summer, since the last time we got together, I had an opportunity to travel to many communities in the Northwest Territories and I talked with a lot of different people, both on committee travel and other related business. One of the common concerns that became evident as I was travelling around talking to the different residents of the Northwest Territories is housing.

There were two issues that came up more than others and the first one was the number of vacant public housing units and the number of vacant houses that the Housing Corporation has available for sale. Last week the Minister made a statement where he talked specifically about some of these vacant units and the hard work that the department and the Housing Corporation were doing to try to liquidate and move these vacant houses out. I look forward to following up on that work and seeing what’s done in that area.

The other area of concern was arrears. A significant number of public housing tenants have gained and developed significant arrears, as my colleague mentioned, since the program moved from Housing Corp to Education and then back to the Housing Corp. These arrears are a big problem, because if you’re under arrears you don’t have an ability to access any of the other programs that the Housing Corp offers. So until we liquidate some of these arrears or the people pay back some of these arrears, they’re going to continue to have housing problems.

The big problem in this area is that because of the situation that my colleague described, is a number of individuals have what some people consider to be false arrears; they’re not actually in arrears. If they had been assessed in a timely manner and appropriately to begin with, they never would have developed these arrears. So what needs to happen is the Housing Corp needs to go and review these individuals’ files on an individual basis, those individuals who have arrears, to determine if, in fact, these individuals have arrears or whether they are these fake arrears that some people have exist out there.

Later today I will be asking the Minister responsible for the Housing Corp if they will go back and look at some of these arrears and determine which ones are real, which ones are not, and find a process to liquidate the ones that aren’t real if they, in fact, exist. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery
Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great honour to recognize Maryann Ross, the vice-president of the Gwich’in Tribal Council. Welcome, Maryann.

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery
Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. Robert McLeod.

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery
Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Robert C. McLeod

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would also like to recognize a constituent of Inuvik Twin Lakes, Maryann Ross. Thank you.

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery
Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Item 6, acknowledgements. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Abernethy.

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. During my Member’s statement I was talking about some of these perceived arrears that public housing tenants have in the Northwest Territories. As I said, there are some people that believe that a number of these arrears aren’t, in fact, real. I would like to ask the Minister responsible some questions about those potential arrears. Has any analysis been done within the Housing Corp to determine whether or not this is, in fact, true? Are there some individuals who have possibly unreal arrears or have we done any assessment to determine that, in fact? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. The honourable Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, Mr. Robert McLeod.

Robert C. McLeod

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have begun the work of looking at the arrears that were accumulated during the transfer over to ECE. We have noticed that the arrears did increase significantly during that time, so we are working on trying to find a way that we can get these arrears identified and have them dealt with. Thank you.

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

I was wondering if the Minister could give me a bit of a timeline as to when he thinks that work might be done and if those individuals are identified to have arrears that aren’t in fact real, what’s going to be done to help offset those arrears.

Robert C. McLeod

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, this would probably be a fairly lengthy process because we’d almost have to go on a file-by-file basis. But with the tenants starting to come back to the LHOs to

get their assessments done, there’s an opportunity for them to verify their income that they had during that time and adjustments will be made on the arrears. Thank you.

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

That’s good to know and I’m happy to hear that. I’m curious, will there be any sort of public awareness campaign or anything done to encourage the individuals who might be in arrears to come forward with this information in order to identify areas where they may, in fact, not owe large sums of money so that they can get back on a financial pathway, to a positive financial pathway? Thank you.

Robert C. McLeod

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, as far as an official public awareness campaign, there are no plans for that right now. We are working with tenants as they start to go back to the LHOs for the assessment. They are being told some of the processes that they could go through. In forums like this particular one and in my travels throughout the Territories this summer and different assemblies I went to, I did the same message that we had to start working on the arrears and there was an opportunity for tenants who accumulated arrears during the transfer over to ECE to come back, get their income verified, and adjustments will be made. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Beaulieu.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I talked about the problems that exist even with the transfer of the Public Housing Program back to the local housing organizations. I have questions for the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.

Mr. Speaker, was the Minister aware that when the transfer took place, that the policies that remained and were developed as a harmonization tool with ECE and the NWT Housing Corporation would also remain in place when it was transferred back to the local housing organizations? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. The honourable Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, Mr. Robert McLeod.

Robert C. McLeod

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When the transfer went over to ECE, my understanding was that clients were going to go to ECE, get their rents assessed, and then they’d go back and pay the LHO. But as we’ve been hearing throughout the transfer, there had been a lot of difficulties with some not being assessed in a timely manner and we see some of the results of it today with the arrears. My understanding of the whole

thing was that they were just going to go and get their arrears and… They were going to get their arrears assessed and then they were going to go to the LHO and pay the rent. Thank you.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Mr. Speaker, my question basically was when the transfer occurred back again, when the decision was reversed to go back to the corporation or the local housing organizations, the rules that were in place, policies, procedures that were put in place to harmonize the two programs, did the Minister know that part of the transfer was also going to be occurring? Thank you.

Robert C. McLeod

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, I apologize if I misunderstood the Member’s first question. With the policies going back from ECE to Housing Corp, I am aware that we are using those at the moment. However, we are evaluating the whole process and we will be making some changes, ones that will be better for clients. Thank you.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister commit to allocating resources to the communities to clean up the mess that was created by the harmonization? Thank you.

Robert C. McLeod

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, with the transfer back to the Housing Corp, of the assessment, it’s my belief that things… We’re just in the early stages right now, but things are starting to improve. We see the assessment rates, the collection rates have gone up to almost… Some of the assessment rates in the communities are 97 and 98 percent, so that is a huge improvement, and I think that as they continue to go to the LHOs to get the assessments done, then I think we’ll see a significant improvement. It will take some time, as I said in responding to Mr. Abernethy’s questions. We’d almost have to look at it on a client-by-client basis, but I think through the process of the LHOs we’re starting to accomplish that. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Your final supplementary, Mr. Beaulieu.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, previous to the transfer to ECE from the local housing organizations with the program, it was a fairly simple program, and with the low employment rates in the communities everyone knew who was working, so the individual was assessed a certain amount. He was assessed a certain amount, he came in, he paid his rent. It was not a requirement for him to continue to report each month that he remained unemployed or his rent would be moved to a maximum. That system seemed to be working fairly well. It was changed and then we asked it to be put back to the corporation, but the program that was in place that created the problem wasn’t thrown out. Is the Minister prepared to revise that program to go back to something that is close to what was in place previous to the harmonization project? Thank you.

Robert C. McLeod

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, having to come into the LHO was a process that was in place even before the transfer over to ECE. Whether you are employed or not, it asked you to come in every month to verify your income. If you didn’t come in, obviously you are going to be assessed at economic rate, but if you came in later and verified your income, then they would make the necessary adjustments. So the program has always been there. It was just a matter of reporting when the transfer took place to ECE, because not all communities had an ECE office and, therefore, we find ourselves in a situation we are in today. But there is an opportunity, as I have said earlier, that we can go back and look at some of the files. We need the people to work with us on this one. They have to verify their income and adjustments will be made. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Minister of Health and Social Services. They are really about trying to introduce some common sense into the process of decision-making recognizing the need for rules and procedures. I would like to ask, first of all, would the Minister confirm that post-secondary students attending school outside the Northwest Territories who have a need for treatment or facilities or experts not available in the Northwest Territories must return to the Northwest Territories before they are actually able to access that and, of course, greatly increase cost and reduce medical outcomes? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Ms. Lee.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Minister of Health and Social Services

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is the rule. I agree with the Member that it is not commonsensical. It is under review. We are looking to change that. Thank you.

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, thanks for the Minister for that candid comment. That shows the Minister does have common sense herself and is willing to speak straightforwardly on that, which I appreciate.

Would the Minister also agree that there are many situations that, because of bureaucratic rules, end up costing the system more than would have been necessarily required and it actually doesn’t help in the medical outcomes that we are looking for? For example, it may end up in delays. For example, an appointment with a specialist that, because of bureaucratic rule, is delayed and that appointment

can’t be booked for another six months. That obviously has some medical implications. Would the Minister agree that these sorts of things are costly both in terms of financial costs and medical outcomes? Thank you.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Minister of Health and Social Services

Mr. Speaker, perhaps I answered all the questions the first time, but I just want to... Sometimes that just invites other questions. Mr. Speaker, I just want to let the Member know that the scenario that he put together in his Member’s statement, it is the rule that requires medical travel to start from the NWT is a problem for students who are working and living and going to school somewhere else. That has been red flagged. As the Member knows, we are reviewing the Medical Travel Policy and that specific issue is something that will need to be changed. It will be changed and we are working on that. Thank you.

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

The Minister was referring to my first question. My second question, I was broadening it up to the whole business of common sense. I wasn’t talking about students in that case. I am sure the Minister, however, does agree that there are many cases of this lack of common sense, or perhaps a better way to say it would be lack of flexibility of the system. I am talking as much perhaps more of a system, if you will, Mr. Speaker, than the Minister.

Again, I do understand the rule, the need for rules and procedures, but I am looking for flexibility might be a better way of putting it. Will the Minister commit to developing the necessary flexibility into all of our health procedures to increase our effectiveness on prevention, early diagnosis and reduced costs that these sorts of examples portray, not just restricting it to students? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Minister of Health and Social Services

Mr. Speaker, if the Member is speaking about the Medical Travel Policy, we do have rules. If there are rules for change, I am obviously willing to look at that with the Member, but I think his question might be a little bit too broad about flexibility. We do try to have clear rules and apply them. If the Member has any suggestions for change, I am willing to listen to them. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Final supplementary, Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate again the Minister’s openness to approach here. Perhaps I will go through committee and see if we can bring that forward.

When can students, in this case, expect to see this common sense or flexibility brought to the process? Thank you.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Minister of Health and Social Services

Mr. Speaker, as the Member knows, we are reviewing the Medical Travel Program. It is quite an extensive review. I look

forward to bringing the results of that review to the standing committee so that we could work to make the program better. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Ms. Bisaro.

Wendy Bisaro

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are addressed to the Premier today, Minister responsible for the Executive, I believe.

In having heard from the participants of the summit that the elimination of poverty has to be the highest priority for this government, and me having advised the Premier of that, and it was also in a press release that came out a week or so ago, I would like to first of all ask the Premier if he can tell us just how that will happen. What will he do to make the eradication of poverty a high priority for this government and what will he do to make sure that the work on eradicating poverty is done before the end of this Assembly? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The work of this Legislative Assembly on an annual basis covers a large area that affects the poverty of the Northwest Territories in the sense of trying to eradicate it by those programs we have but not going down that path instead to the work that has begun. I committed to Members in this House that we would begin to do our work in Executive. There has been an internal working group established with them. The Executive supports the work and an advisory group of external stakeholders to help. They are looking at the work that has come through. Some of that was recently held. That will also be fed into this system to see what areas we could look at strengthening. Thank you.

Wendy Bisaro

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, thanks to the Premier. One of the other recommendations, a major recommendation from the summit was that any work done on eliminating poverty has to involve everyone -- NGOs that are providing services, local governments, social justice organizations -- not just the territorial government. If we hear as already mentioned and we do know that there has been a working group established, but that working group is composed of GNWT staff. The advisory group is made up of stakeholders. That basically contravenes the recommendation from the summit. I would like to ask the Premier if he is willing to change the format of the working group to not only involve GNWT staff but also involve key stakeholders involved in dealing with residents who are enduring poverty. Thank you.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Mr. Speaker, as the work that is just getting underway, again, the internal

working group because it takes a number of departments who are in that delivery that will have to go to their departments if things are to change or if there is a requirement for enhanced resources. The external group is there to guide that work as it happens. That is a process we have established. If it clearly shows it is not working, then we would be prepared to look at what we can do as we go forward. Thank you.

Wendy Bisaro

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat dismayed by the Premier’s answer, because I think what the summit said was that we need to not just have the work done by GNWT people at the outset, that we need to involve everybody at the outset or else we are not going to get meaningful input or analysis of what we currently do.

As well, during the summit, in terms of the work that needed to be done, it was stated that we needed to start to work from the ground up, not look at what is existing but basically start with a clean slate, a zero-based review, so to speak. I would like to ask the Premier what kind of work is anticipated in terms of the working group, whether it is with or without the NGOs. I would hope it is with, but what kind of work is the government going to do? How do they intend to go about developing an Anti-Poverty Strategy? Will we start from what exists or will we use the blank slate approach? Thank you.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you. The process we’ve engaged in is one where we have to first measure where we are and what we have in place. At that point decisions can be made as to the approach of coming up with a strategy that will work for the NWT. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Your final supplementary, Ms. Bisaro.

Wendy Bisaro

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have to say to the Premier’s offer to measure, absolutely we must measure where we are. Much of that work was done during the Anti-Poverty Summit and that work cannot proceed if we don’t involve everybody who is currently involved in anti-poverty actions, whether it be territorial government programs or non-government groups that are working to help people out in the trenches, so to speak.

So I guess I would like to ask the Premier again if he will reconsider this working group and reconsider expanding it to include the key stakeholders at the outset, not in an advisory capacity but in a working capacity. Thank you.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you. One of the things I’ve realized is that the bigger the group gets, the longer it takes the process and decisions. What I will say is that I’m prepared to discuss with the Executive to see how this working group can do its work along with the advisors on this and see how that can function, or how we can improve that relationship. But as the Member has stated, one, to

see something come forward in the lifetime of this Assembly and one of the things we have to realize is it’s one thing to establish a working group or come up with a strategy, it’s another thing that we have to come up and fund that and we have to make sure that we line up all of those as well. So I’m prepared to go back to the Executive and have a discussion about that process and how that work gets done. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’ve got questions today for the Minister of Transportation. It gets back to my Member’s statement in regard to the Deh Cho Bridge and potential financial liability for the Government of the Northwest Territories with that project.

Back in the spring Members were talking to the Minister and the department about a construction audit that was to take place on the project. It was supposed to, at the time, take a couple of months to perform that construction audit. There hasn’t been any report come back through standing committee or to this House. So I’d like to ask the Minister what is the exact status of that construction audit and are there any potential financial liabilities in regard to that audit. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Minister responsible for Transportation, Mr. Michael McLeod.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s good to see a Member consistent in these questions on the Deh Cho Bridge. The Deh Cho Bridge is proceeding very well. Over the summer months we’ve achieved our targets for the summer construction. The steel is en route and we’re expecting to start seeing the superstructure starting to be put up in the next little while.

As to the report that the Member is referencing, the draft is completed. We’re now doing a reconciliation with staff on it and we don’t anticipate there’s going to be any additional cost to the government. Thank you.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

If the audit was to take two months and it’s taken six, I’m just wondering if that’s cost the government any additional money to have the construction audit finished. Thank you.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

I don’t believe it has cost us any more. Thank you.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Can the Minister let us know exactly when the report will be coming through to standing committee and Members of the House on the construction audit? There was a number of

concerns regarding the scour rock in some of the structural components of pier 3 south and I’d just like to ask the Minister when that report might be coming through. Thank you.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

We’ve committed to provide that information. We will provide the information to the Members as soon as the reconciliation of the audit is done. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will that information also be posted on the Department of Transportation’s website for the public to see? Thank you.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

We will release the report once it’s finalized. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for the Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In regard to my Member’s statement I noted that this process, yes, it has gone on for a while, but the whole intention of the devolution process came about because of the settlement of the Dene/Metis Land Claim in 1988, which spells out the provisions of the Northern Accord and how the Dene/Metis were going to be involved under the section of the Northern Accord, which is called the Aboriginal Rights section. In that section, Mr. Speaker, it clearly stipulates that the government has an obligation to ensure that those parameters of the land claim agreements are upheld.

So I’d like to ask the Minister when we talk about the majority of Members on board, I know in the past there were letters by way of Ron Irwin in regard to asking for a majority of the groups on side, and also in the previous government in regard to Mr. Handley’s government, that you had to have a majority of the Members on side. So I’d like to ask the Premier why are we now taking the position where we’re basically going with a simple minority and moving forward without having the majority of aboriginal groups on side. It seemed to be good enough. So what I’d like to know is why have you come to that conclusion?

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the Member’s lead up to the question he talked about the comprehensive Dene/Metis claim that was concluded. Mr. Speaker, that was not concluded. It was a discussion that was going on, but that process then led to the regional claims process and those are in place and we continue to

work with those in implementation in fulfilling the agreements.

On the area of how many groups it takes to go forward, the draft AIP is in the hands of both the Government of Canada and ourselves, as well as a letter has been sent to the aboriginal organizations, and they have to the end of this month to decide how they will participate in this and we’re awaiting that outcome. Thank you.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Again, under the land claim agreement it’s pretty clear that the Government of the Northwest Territories shall involve the Gwich’in in the development of an implementation of a Northern Accord for oil and gas development in the Northwest Territories, pursuant to a negotiation enabling agreement, September 5, 1988, between the Government of Canada and the Government of the Northwest Territories, which is the Northern Accord agreement. So I’d like to ask the Premier, are we sticking to the elements of the 1988 agreement in ensuring that we have the conclusion of those negotiations with the Aboriginal Rights section which clearly identifies that this includes land claim settlement agreements in regard to these agreements? Thank you.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Throughout this whole process -- and the Member talked about this -- this has been ongoing for a number of Assemblies. In fact, as I stated, half of my lifetime we’ve talked about devolution and resource revenue sharing or the Northern Accord in trying to move those authorities to the North. So there has been inclusion at all levels in the Northwest Territories, including aboriginal leaders and negotiators at quite a number of tables. In fact, if you look, we work with the claims that are in place and that are protected and we continue to honour that protection. When you look at the Tlicho Agreement of Section 2.4.(1), you look at the Gwich’in Settlement of 3.1.(10) and the Sahtu of 3.1.(9) and the Inuvialuit have a similar provision in their Section 20.(1). So we use the existing claims as our processes in how we conduct ourselves in our discussions. Thank you.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Under the Northern Accord agreement it states:

Nothing in this agreement will abrogate or derogate from any of the provisions included in any aboriginal land claims settlements including the following subjects:

a) land use planning;

b) environmental impact screening and

review;

c) land and water use permitting;

d) wildlife management and compensation;

e) surface

rights;

f) subsurface

rights;

g) benefit

agreements;

h) creation and management of national and

territorial parks and conservation areas;

i)

resource revenue sharing.

For greater certainty, the oil and gas management are required in the establishment of pursuing this agreement shall be comparable to those in the land claim agreements.

So this agreement states that you have to follow the land claims agreements with regard to how you implement devolution.

So I’d like to know why we aren’t following the Northern Accord as it was laid out, to ensure those provisions of the land claims agreements will be upheld.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

As I had stated earlier, much like the comprehensive Dene/Metis claim, the Northern Accord work had a lot of work done that led up to that. As to actual implementation, we’ve been using the agreements that have been signed off, that have been voted on and protected under the Constitution and our work as signatories when those parties or those agreements were ratified. The Northern Accord was a process that led up to and many hoped that it would be finalized, but much like the Dene/Metis Comprehensive Claim it did not proceed beyond that. In fact, we do now use the agreements that are in place and we continue to do that.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d just like to ask the Premier exactly how many aboriginal groups were in the negotiating process, at the table negotiating this latest devolution agreement since previous statements by the Premier in which he put this arrangement on the back burner, as he stated. Can you tell us how many aboriginal groups were actually at the negotiating table when this was being negotiated between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government?

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

We’ll be able to document the fact that we’ve had all groups at the table through the process up until April. That’s when the Gwich’in decided to pull out from those discussions.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to follow up on the questions asked by my colleague Mr. Bromley on how we can take a more

common sense approach to things which seem to have an obvious and simple answer, but because policy is strict and there isn’t a lot of latitude for discretion to be applied it makes it difficult to plead these cases.

The cases that Mr. Bromley refers to where we have students in southern Canada who need medical attention and because medical travel must originate in the Northwest Territories to be covered, the fact that these students couldn’t then access any kind of travel assistance even if it would be far less than what it would cost to come home and fly from here, but they can’t access any kind of support. It doesn’t make sense. Mr. Bromley clearly referred to it as a common sense approach.

We know, as a government, that we can’t have policies that have too much discretionary latitude attached to them because then we don’t have any way of controlling it and we don’t have any way of controlling costs and the whole thing can just go awry. But there must be a way.

I didn’t really hear anything very specific being responded from the Minister as to how we could deal with these sorts of things. I have a suggestion and I’d like to ask the Minister what she thinks of this. We need some kind of a person, a point of contact in the government, where people or MLAs, on behalf of constituents, could make a case for where the government needs to alter a policy in order for it to apply to a certain set of circumstances; somebody that the government trusts is not going to put the government at some kind of risk and somebody that will also be understanding and apply some common sense and discretion to the situation. I suggest some type of an ombudsman. I’ll ask the Minister, first, what would she respond to having somebody in the Department of Health with that kind of ability.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister responsible for Health and Social Services, Ms. Lee.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. An ombudsman or some kind of an arbiter or in many cases, no matter what Health and Social Services issues, they end up on the Minister’s desk. The important thing in a society based on rule of law and rule of rules, we need clear rules. Even an ombudsman would need a rule to arbitrate or rule on these things.

On the specific issue in question that we have here -- just so that Members know that the Department of Health and Social Services is not completely without common sense -- the Members could imagine cases where, I mean, see some merit as to why we need to require the medical travel originating in the NWT. Because we use out-of-town uses, we audit cases where things come out of the Territories, because sometimes people move away and they use our medical benefits and such.

That’s why. But in the cases of students, there’s no question that our students who are living and going to school outside of the NWT should be able to get their medical procedures from where they live. That is a definite anomaly and I am looking to change that.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

That is encouraging and I’ll be very interested in seeing how the Minister plans to address that. I’ll be looking forward to some proposal being brought forward.

The Minister referred to these kinds of situations landing on her desk. I would question whether or not, considering the number of portfolios, the amount of workload that the Minister and her executive assistant carry, the fact that the Department of Health and Social Services is the largest department in our government, if this is the highest and best use of the Minister’s time for her to take on that role herself. Is it not possible to delegate this to a reasonable thinking, critical, analyzing person and have this person accessible to everyone? Not everyone has the same access because not everyone can advocate for themselves and not everyone has an MLA that they feel they can go to that can advocate for them. So does the idea, and for a lack of a better word, an advocate or ombudsman, does the Minister believe that has merit or would she just like us to continue sending these off to her executive assistant?

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

I definitely feel that notion, that idea does deserve merit for us to further explore. I think, under the given resources, I don’t think we can create an entire office, but I think there is definitely room for us to consider it. I would like to further work with the Members to consider some kind of appeal for certain benefits under health care. It’s usually about insurance services, what’s insured, what’s not, medical travel, maybe supp health benefits.

Under supp health benefits we are definitely looking at some kind of appeal mechanism. Student Financial Assistance has that. I don’t know what other social programs have them, but I think it’s something worth pursuing and I will commit right now to look at that.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Sorry, and I apologize, Mr. Speaker. I am very encouraged to hear this. This is something that I believe has been missing in the government for a long time. SFA is another area where you could combine different appeals for different departments under one person and they could expeditiously deal with these matters. I don’t envy that person’s job, mind you, because it might necessarily involve saying no to some people. But does the Minister concur that in the scope of these policies that there are extenuating circumstances from time to time which do require a common sense

solution which often would save the government money?

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

It may or it may not, but the important thing is that I think our people need to feel that they have a place they could go to that should be outside of the political process, that can’t be depending on the level or the strength of advocacy capacity of certain Members or the heartbreaking side of the stories. I think we could all benefit from having some sort of objective standard by which our people know exactly what they qualify for, what the rules are, why do they not qualify, or do they qualify, and if there is any room for improvement it has to come back here for us to make the decision. But I definitely feel that the time has come and we need to consider that.

It will be complex, I think, more complex than we think, but I think for the benefit of the next Assembly -- and these issues will not go away -- we do need an objective process. I would commit to working with Mrs. Groenewegen and other Members to see how we could move this forward.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Premier of the Northwest Territories. I want to ask the Premier regarding the draft Devolution and Resource Revenue Sharing Agreement-in-Principle in terms of allowing the people of the Northwest Territories ample time to look at this deal. As has been noted by CBC, parts of the deal are out there. Can we have our constituents in the regions look at this deal to see if it’s something they want to join with the Government of the Northwest Territories to initial at the start of the negotiations? I want to ask the Premier if his Cabinet has considered bringing this out to the public to have a public debate and to see if we are all in one on this matter.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have, as a government, used a process that is well established and one that is working with the parties at the table and the aboriginal organizations that have been a part of this process. We are awaiting their input with the joint letter that went out to them. We’ll have to decide at that point how we proceed as the GNWT.

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

I’m asking the Premier in terms of some innovation and thinking outside the box regarding the established guidelines and policies to bring this significant deal to the peoples’ front doors and asking if this is a deal that we want to sign on

with everybody in the Northwest Territories. I have the K’asho leadership coming here today and I’m meeting with them after this House session here today. I need to let the K’asho leadership know. What should I tell them about this deal?

We have 13 days, the Premier has indicated, to get responses from the aboriginal leaders; 13 days to tell my leaders what to do for our children’s children on this significant deal here and in terms of signing on with the government. Can the Premier allow the people of the Northwest Territories the dignity and respect to debate this in an open forum?

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

The aboriginal representatives received a draft AIP in September. They at that point were hoping and I’m sure that they’ve had their discussions or are in the process of having their discussions with their elected representatives of their representative organizations and will be able to respond back. We’re awaiting that response. We’re trying to honour, much like at the regional leaders table, the role of governments and have that interaction government to government as we have been told so many times. We’re awaiting the regional organizations’ responses to the letter that’s been sent to them.

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

The time frame for the aboriginal leaders to respond, again I would wait until the end of the month to see. It would have to be on Halloween Day, too, so we’ll see what type of a response we’re going to get.

I want to ask because right now I’m not hearing the aboriginal governments jumping up and down saying “sign here.” I’m hearing different views as to this agreement and it seems that we don’t have much support from the majority of aboriginal governments. I want to ask the Premier again if this is the type of sentiments and feelings out there at the end of the month, would we as the Assembly make the decision to initial or not this agreement?

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Mr. Speaker, the work that we have done and this draft AIP that has been sent out has been many years in the making. In fact, the specific work on this area started as far back as 2001. The previous government along with four of the groups initialled off and sent it in. That work has been the foundation, the basis of the work that has gone forward. So there has been much involvement in that process and as our process is established and works, before I can sign off on that I would have to go to my Cabinet colleagues to see their input on that. As well, as we do in practice, we seek the input of Members on that before coming up to that decision point. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. A final supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the Premier and Mr. Krutko have exchanged on some

of the history that went on with the devolution and resource revenue sharing beyond 1988 and from there today where we have an initial agreement that we’re discussing whether we sign or not sign, Mr. Speaker, in terms of that history it also shows that the government has also changed its views in terms of the majority of aboriginal governments on board to the full support of them to some support. Now it seems like we have a government-to-government relationship and I’m afraid that this initial agreement will not recognize the aboriginal governments as being party to this initial agreement. I think there are some significant changes that need to be made, if I read it closely enough, in terms of moving forward.

I want to ask the Premier in terms of allowing the people of the Northwest Territories the opportunity to say this deal is good for us or not. Will the Premier, again, commit to some type of open forum for debate on the initial AIP?

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

The work that we have done and we’re at now, we’ll be facing a decision as the 16th Legislative Assembly whether we go to

the next level of negotiations. As pointed out, even the language that’s there before protects the aboriginal rights, and it’s our role as a public government to ensure that the rights of the public as a whole of the Northwest Territories are also represented.

It’s been through the many years that this work has been done and we count on the input of Members who are representatives of the many constituencies across the North to voice their input, as we do commonly practice in our system of government. So we will go through that process. We will have to decide on a decision in the future as to do we make this and go to the next level and begin those final set of negotiations moving the file forward. At this point that’s where we’re at. We want to wait and see that response to the letters that have gone out and then, as I said to Members, we’ll be discussing as our process is established and seeking input from the Members as well. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Abernethy.

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to follow up on some questions from my colleague Ms. Bisaro on the Anti-Poverty Strategy. I was wondering if the Premier could tell me which departments are represented in the internal working group that’s working on the strategy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Question 216-16(5): Anti-Poverty Strategy
Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will have to get that information and I will provide it to the Member. Thank you.

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

I attended both Prospects North and the Anti-Poverty Summit the week before session, and what became really interesting and obvious to me is that for an Anti-Poverty Strategy to work and to be effective in the Northwest Territories, you’re going to need to engage business. Business is going to need to be involved. I don’t believe that Industry, Tourism and Investment is currently one of the members on our internal working group, and I’m just wondering, if they’re not one of the groups on our internal working group, could the Premier commit to getting a representative from ITI onto that working group to represent business so that we stand a chance of succeeding at our Anti-Poverty Strategy. Thank you.

Question 216-16(5): Anti-Poverty Strategy
Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

I am prepared to have that discussion and see how we can add and strengthen this process. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In my previous history in the land claims process, before getting into politics, was with the Dene Metis claim and then also being involved in the regional land claims of the Gwich’in and the Sahtu. I also took part in one of the devolution negotiations back in 1995 in which we were all at the table, we had our own legal counsel, each group was basically represented around the table for negotiating a northern accord on behalf of the people of the Northwest Territories along with the Government of the Northwest Territories. Back then Mr. John Todd was the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources, which we actually sat at a table to negotiate. So again, I’d like to ask the Minister in regard to the process. Were the aboriginal groups physically at the negotiating table when this agreement was being signed between the federal government and ourselves?

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The process now is we have a draft AIP that has been sent back by the negotiators to the principals. An additional letter has gone out to the aboriginal organizations seeking their input if they want to continue on with the process of being involved in the final set of negotiations. We are going to await

that response. In the work that’s gone on before, as I stated earlier, if we go to the previous Assembly, in fact four of the aboriginal groups signed on to a draft agreement at that point and had sent it in. So throughout the years many have been involved in the negotiations.

Up until this point, this Assembly has not signed any agreement. We are going to take in the comments, wait for the response from the aboriginal organizations. As I said to Members of this Assembly earlier, we will seek input from Members before a decision is made on how we proceed. Thank you.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, the concern from the aboriginal groups that I’ve been talking to is that under the land claim agreements we have water rights provisions; we have, basically, land and water provisions; we have the surface rights provisions; we have land use planning provisions. All those provisions are basically supposed to be part of the devolution process so that when the devolution process will be concluded, you will have a working relationship with landowners throughout the Northwest Territories from the aboriginal landowners to the Crown holders and making sure that all the parameters of those agreements are basically intact and they’re working in regard to a new land and water regime in the Northwest Territories.

So again I’d like to ask the Premier, because I think a lot of the discussion has been around royalties, royalties, royalties. Everybody sees dollar signs. But this agreement is more than dollar signs; it’s dealing with lands, waters, and the management of resources in the Northwest Territories. So again, I’d like to ask the Premier why is it that the government is refusing to allow aboriginal groups to sit at the table and negotiate those elements of the agreements, which is very much a part of this devolution process to ensure that those elements are in the agreement going forward.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, the fact is we have not refused anybody to the table. We have invited all groups to the table, and, in fact, between INAC and ourselves, have supplied up to in the neighbourhood of $400,000 for groups to come to the table and participate. We’ve been welcoming, we’ve been open and invited all groups to the table, and throughout this process groups have been at the table and some have not been at certain meetings until April where it was the Gwich’in who said that they were not going to be formally a part of the negotiation process. Previous to that, they were involved.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, there have been court cases across the country looking at the whole involvement of aboriginal people, governments, to ensure that consultation is more than just getting a notification to take part. Negotiations means you

actually sit at a table like this and you basically negotiate back and forth. So I’d like to ask the Premier again, were the aboriginal groups at the physical table where these negotiations were being negotiated between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, I can’t speak for the previous government. I know that the groups that did sign on at that point and were also at the table at the start of this process when we re-engaged with the federal government. At that point, one group has chosen not to be there. Again, others were at different parts of the discussion tables and briefings and negotiations. I am not going to get into the actual workings of those groups.

There is a process in place. As I said, I will honour that process and we are going to wait for a response from the aboriginal organizations if they are going to continue to be a part of the next phase of these discussions. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Your final, short supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, I will try to simplify my question. During the negotiations between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government at those negotiating tables... I mean, you keep talking about a past tense of what aboriginal groups did or who signed on or who didn’t. I want to know, physically, were the aboriginal groups at the negotiations between the federal government and the Government of the Northwest Territories to come up with this latest agreement-in-principle for devolution for the Northwest Territories? Yes or no?

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, the aboriginal organizations that have a joint letter from the chief negotiators talking about the process they reached and the continued involvement of the aboriginal organizations to this next process and we are waiting to see if they will be continue to be a part of this process or come back to the table, in some cases. We have included and we have sat down with Members to provide them information on those that have been involved until we had the official response of the Gwich’in in April. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to follow up with some of the questions I had earlier for the Minister of Transportation in regard to the Deh Cho Bridge Project. I would like to just ask the Minister, the remaining balance on the work to be concluded on that project is roughly $90 million. I am just wondering, given the fact that the steel still

hasn’t shown up in Fort Providence, is there any indication that the cost of building this superstructure on that bridge in the coming year or 18 months or whatever it is going to take, is going to cost more than the $90 million, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Minister of Transportation, Mr. Michael McLeod.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Minister of Transportation

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, there is no indication that we are going to see an increase in costs. I think the budget remaining for the bridge is around $60 million. Thank you

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Mr. Speaker, if it does cost more than $90 million, obviously given winter construction on a project of that size and nature, and given the fact that it is steel that is going to be erected on that bridge, it would seem to me that, given the delays in the project, costs are going to be incurred. If they are incurred, is it the responsibility of the contractor or the Government of the Northwest Territories to pay any additional costs over $90 million? Thank you.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Minister of Transportation

Mr. Speaker, that is a hypothetical question at this point. We don’t anticipate that there is going to be any delay in the construction schedule. Right now there are 100 trainloads of steel coming from the south and will be unloaded on site. We expect to have a superstructure in by March. Thank you.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Mr. Speaker, in regards to the debt servicing on the bridge, at what point in time is the government liable for the almost $8 million in debt servicing if that project isn’t completed by November of next year? Thank you.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Minister of Transportation

Mr. Speaker, the Member is aware that there is a plan to service the debt. We need an average of at least 6,400 trucks to cross the bridge through the toll system and that would allow us to break even. Anything over that would allow us to have revenue or a profit. Anything under that would force us into a deficit situation.

There’s going to be years when the traffic volumes are up, there’s going to be years when the traffic volumes are down. For this coming year, we expect the traffic volume is going to be around 7,500 trucks or 8,000 and that’s not counting any other new developments such as the Gahcho Kue mine project, there’s also Seabridge, there’s also MGM Minerals and there are other initiatives that are out there that we haven’t factored in here. But our information from the mine industry tells us it’s going to be around 7,500 trucks up to 8,000. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Your final, short supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m just having trouble trying to understand the numbers. Previously the number that I had was a projected toll revenue of $5.1 million and the most recent the department has provided us was $3.2 million. They also said an increase to 7,100 trucks would result in another $650,000, which would put you at $3.8 million on annual revenue. So how did the numbers drop from the projected $5.1 million to a projected $3.2 million in annual tolls? Thank you.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

The information the Member is referring to is information we are obligated to provide to committee as per the Bridge Act, where we have to provide a statement of funding sources and costs based on traffic volumes for that year. At this point, of course, everybody knows we’re not collecting tolls, so this is for information purposes only. Last year, if the information that was provided to committee showed that there were 4,000 trucks that crossed the bridge we had anticipated, we would have seen a small deficit. However, we know that’s not going to be the case. This coming year the traffic volumes are going up. The first information that came to us was 7,100 trucks. We’re up to now where we expect it would be up to 7,500 and maybe even further than that. The numbers are not firm, these are all estimates. Of course, we haven’t factored in all the unknowns as to the other projects that I referenced in my answer to the last question.

So this is all information that we’re obligated to provide at the end of every year and we’ll continue to do so. As we move forward, we’ll commit to doing that. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Time for question period has expired. Item 8, written questions. Item 9, returns to written questions. Item 10, replies to opening address. Item 11, petitions. Item 12, reports of standing and special committees. Item 13, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 14, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Further to my Member’s statement and questions earlier today, I wish to table an article from the September 2, 2010, edition of the Deh Cho Drum entitled State of School Playground Sparks Parent’s Concern. Mr. Speaker, the article describes the hazardous conditions of the Bompas Elementary School’s playground in Fort Simpson and calls upon school, government and community groups to pull together to solve the problems being

experienced at the playground. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Item 15, notices of motion. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Wednesday, October 20, 2010, I’ll move the following motion: Now therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Monfwi, that the following individuals be appointed by the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories to the Human Rights Commission for the Northwest Territories effective November 1, 2010: Mr. Roger Wah-Shee of the city of Yellowknife for a term of four years, and Mr. William Turner of the city of Yellowknife for a term of four years,

Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Beaulieu.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Wednesday, October 20, 2010, I will move the following motion: Now therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Monfwi, that pursuant to Section 61 of the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act, that Elaine Keenan-Bengts be appointed as Information and Privacy Commissioner;

And further, that the appointment be effective November 1, 2010.

Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Wednesday, October 20, 2010, I will move the following motion: Now therefore I moved, seconded by the honourable Member for Great Slave, that Tabled Document 75-16(5), Response of the Joint Review Panel for the Mackenzie Gas Project on the Federal and Territorial Governments’

Interim Response to “Foundation for a Sustainable Northern Future” be referred to Committee of the Whole for consideration.

Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Item 16, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 17, motions. Item 18, first reading of bills. The honourable Premier. Mr. Roland.

Bill 12: An Act To Amend The Liquor Act
First Reading of Bills

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Deh Cho, that Bill 12, An Act to Amend the Liquor Act, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Bill 12 has had first reading.

---Carried

Item 19, second reading of bills. Item 20, consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters: Tabled Document 4-16(5), Executive Summary of the Report of the Joint Review Panel for the Mackenzie Gas Project; Tabled Document 30-16(5), 2010 Review of Members’ Compensation and Benefits; Tabled Document 38-16(5), Supplementary Health Benefits – What We Heard; Tabled Document 62-16(5), Northwest Territories Water Stewardship Strategy; Tabled Document 66-16(5), NWT Capital Estimates 2011-2012; Bill 4, An Act to Amend the Social Assistance Act; Bill 8, Social Work Profession Act; and Bill 9, An Act to Amend the Tourism Act, with Mr. Abernethy in the chair.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Glen Abernethy

We’ll call Committee of the Whole to order. We’re reviewing today: Tabled Document 4-16(5), Tabled Document 30-16(5), Tabled Document 38-16(5), Tabled Document 62-16(5), Tabled Document 66-16(5), Bills 4, 8 and 9. What’s the wish of the committee? Mrs. Groenewegen.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The committee would like to continue with Tabled 66-16(5), NWT Capital Estimates 2011-2012, and proceed with the Department of Transportation. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Glen Abernethy

Is committee agreed?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Glen Abernethy

Alright. With that, we’ll take a short break and come back with Tabled Document 66-16(5) and Transportation. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

I’d like to call Committee of the Whole back to order. Does committee agree that we’ll be considering Tabled Document 66-16(5), NWT Capital Estimates 2011-2012? Committee’s preference was to start with the Department of Transportation, so that’s what we’ll do, if committee agrees. Does committee agree?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Okay. So we’ll start with the infrastructure investment summary, which we will defer until after the details. So we’ll start with airports, which is pages 9-3 to 9-5. First of all, I understand there are no opening remarks, so will the Minister bring witnesses in with him?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Is committee agreed?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, committee. If I could ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort the witnesses into the House. While we’re waiting for that, airports, committee, is pages 9-3 to 9-5 with the financial summary for airports on page 9-4.

I’m assuming that our witnesses are here. I will call upon the Minister to introduce his witness. Mr. McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Today I have with me Mr. Russell Neudorf, the deputy minister of Transportation.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Welcome, Mr. Neudorf. Committee, page 9-4, airports, Transportation, activity summary, airports, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $11.605 million. Questions? Mr. Krutko.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question is directed to the Minister regarding the federal regulations that now force us to extend our airports throughout the Northwest Territories to meet the federal standards. I’d like to ask the Minister how many more communities we are going to include in here for the extension. I know the community of Aklavik has raised an issue. Also with the different type of aircraft that are being used today is an issue, especially in the Sahtu. I’d like to ask the Minister what we are doing to include more communities in this program to meet the national standard. How many communities are left out there to conclude this work and mitigate that problem?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We initiated a planning study several years ago that reviewed all our airports across the North which has resulted in some recommendations to extend a number of airports to 4,000 feet. The planning study was based on the type of aircraft that utilize the facilities in the communities. We have addressed all the communities that were identified in the planning study.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

One of the other aspects that we’re challenged with is the area of climate change and the effect it’s having on permafrost and the protection of the surface of the different airports. Is there any research or work going on to look at the possibility of using different means or methods of surfacing our airports so that we can mitigate some of the effects of climate change? Especially on permafrost.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

The Member is quite correct; there have been some serious challenges starting to show up in a number of our transportation infrastructure across the North on our highways and including on our airports where we see some slumping. We are looking at different ways of construction to mitigate these challenges, however, it’s an issue that is going to be ongoing. We have tried different ways to hardtop the airports. We have tried chipseal in some cases. We’ve tried EK35. There is some new technology that we have had discussions with proponents on but have not done any testing on at this point on our airports. That’s an issue that we’ll have to continue to look at ways to address.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

I’d just like to ask the Minister if he has any research dollars available to look at different types of research when it comes to mitigating the effects of climate change, especially dealing with public infrastructure such as airports or highways. I’d like to ask the Minister if there are any funds we can access to deal with some of the effects we’re seeing at the airports, especially in dealing with the area of permafrost or continuous permafrost.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

We are looking at construction methods on our roads. We are looking at different systems that may be a way to alleviate some of the challenges we’re facing as a result of climate change and the slumping that we’re starting to see in our infrastructure. We do, along with looking at different technology, have some research dollars that have been made available through the Building Canada Program. It’s a seven-year program. There’s $1.85 million and we’ve spent about half of that. So there’s still about 50 percent of those dollars remaining to do other research.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Any other questions, committee, on page 9-4? Agreed?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Moving on. The next section is the marine section, which occurs from page 9-6 through 9-8. The financial summary is on page 9-7. Within the Department of Transportation, the activity summary for marine infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $100,000. Mr. Krutko.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I noted under 9-6 the department is talking about ferry program, ferry services. There is an issue that has come about with the ferry services on the Peel River and the Mackenzie. It’s in regard to the amount of granular material that’s being used for the approaches and how much is being wasted by being put into the rivers; also the effect that it can have on spawning areas or fish, and the build-up of sandbars downstream. I’d like to ask the Minister if the department has looked at alternative means or methods of avoiding using so much silt material in the rivers and, wherever possible, looking at alternative ways of dealing with the ramps for the ferries to land and for the vehicles to get off the approaches. I’d like to ask the Minister where we’re going with that. There are concerns from my constituents, especially with the amount of material that is being dumped into the river year after year where these ferries have been operating for over 30 years. After 30 years that is a lot of gravel that has been placed in those rivers.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, this has been an issue that’s been raised on a number of occasions by the MLA for that constituency. It has also been raised by the chiefs and a number of the leadership, concerns over the amount of gravel that’s being used. We’ve agreed that we need to deal with this issue. It’s part of the process that we’ve embarked on to renew our licence. In 2002 the study was done and it showed that there’s really no issue on the amount of gravel that was being used, however, we want to be able to give comfort to the people who live in that area. We’re looking at alternate methods; maybe different landing sites. We also have investigated the possibility of using a mobile cement pad. It’s already demonstrated that it’s going to be a very costly undertaking, but we want to take a look at that. We also have been reclaiming a lot of that gravel, but maybe that’s an area that we need to put more emphasis on as to reclamation of some of the gravel that’s being put on the shore and in the water. That’s something that we have to resolve as we move forward to renew our water licence.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

I have heard the concerns of the communities, but there have also been concerns regarding the licence the government has obtained in the past which clearly specifically stipulates the

amount of gravel that was going to be used, which I believe was 500 cubic metres. In most cases you’re exceeding 1,500 cubic metres for the approaches. Also in the licence it talked about the gravel being screened. The gravel is not being screened.

I’d like to know that we have environmental regulations or standards that we’re supposed to meet as government, but, more importantly, mitigate efforts. I know that we do have licences, but are we living up to the obligations in those licences by way of the amount of gravel that can be put into a river system and, more importantly, that the material be screened? I’d just like to know what we are doing to ensure that we are living up to the water licences that we are receiving from the land and water boards.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

We feel that we’re meeting the obligations under the water licensing through the amount of gravel that we’re using and the amount that we reclaim. Therefore, we’re meeting the stipulations under the water licence. That’s an issue again that is going to be discussed as we move forward in our application for a new water licence.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Does committee have any further questions on page 9-7, marine? Then on protocol, committee, I’m going to go back. Apparently I need to re-read the numbers before we agree. So I’m going to go back to airports, page 9-4, Department of Transportation, activity summary, airports, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $11.605 million. Is committee agreed?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

And again, page 9-7 for marine, Department of Transportation, activity summary, marine, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $100,000. Is committee agreed?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, committee. We’ll now turn to highways, which goes from page 9-9 through 9-12. Here we have under Department of Transportation, activity summary, highways, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $50.3 million. Mr. Beaulieu.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to ask the Minister a question on the highway chipseal overlay program that includes Highway No. 6. I’m wondering if this budget is what is going to be used to complete the chipsealing on a road that was reconstructed this year: kilometres 68 to 90 on Highway No. 6.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Mr. McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, the money included in this budget is not for new chipseal. This is for replacement. That’s what is identified in this capital plan.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Could the Minister tell me if this highway chipseal overlay program will be used for kilometre 24 to 34 on Highway No. 6?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

That’s a very specific question and I think it’s chipseal all the way to 28. I should point out that there is some consideration at this point for some internal reallocation that we provided notice to the Members that fall outside of the capital plan as it is money already approved but reallocated.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

I’m asking a question, because I’m noticing that chipseal, that’s about the same age as the chipseal on Highway No. 6 from kilometre 1 to 28 that is being replaced, and the other highway, well, the adjoining highway, I’m wondering if there is a plan to do that.

The reason I indicated kilometre 34 was because it was put down and ripped up, from what I understand, a few years back. Then I’ve seen other documentation that indicates that if there would be...in the reconstruction it would be from 34. If the Minister is having difficulty with the question because it’s too specific, I guess my… Not too stupid, no; too specific. I wanted to just ask the question if he knew if they we’re going to do a chipseal overlay from where the chipseal actually exists now on Highway No. 6.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chair. There’s never a question that’s too stupid. Mr. Chairman, the Member is asking a question that’s outside of the capital plan that’s in front of us and we don’t have the specific detail, but the answer to his question is no, we’re not planning to replace the area that he is talking about.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

The next question goes to Mr. Menicoche.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Chipsealing Highway No. 7, I’ll get to that later, but firstly I’m glad to see, of course, more expenditure on Highway No. 1, and especially the work that was done this year. Our constituents were very pleased with the first, I think it was 35 kilometres of chipseal from the Providence junction towards Fort Simpson. Perhaps if the Minister can elaborate on further work that’s going to happen within that section and if there are any other sections that will be completed this year towards Fort Simpson, and up to and including if there’s an opportunity for the Village of Fort Simpson to cost save if there’s going to be some chipsealing done around Fort Simpson as well. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We plan to continue the chipseal work that was undertaken this year. We had anticipated we would do 70 kilometres from the junction heading towards Simpson. We weren’t able to do that, so we will have to carry that over and continue that next year.

As part of this capital plan, our intention is to start from -- time providing and weather cooperating, of course -- complete the work that we identified for this year and start next year from Checkpoint and head in the other direction up to kilometre 375.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

I’m glad the Minister laid out that plan and it’s something that we certainly look forward to, but the chipsealed section from Checkpoint towards Fort Simpson is slated for some work. If the Minister can comment on that, because there are several sections that do need to be replaced. As well as from the ferry crossing at the Liard crossing toward Fort Simpson there are sections of chipseal that need that remediation work as well. Is that some of the priority of the Department of Transportation as well? Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, we will be replacing some sections of the chipseal that is damaged and is causing some issues with safety from Checkpoint on to Simpson.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

If the Minister can keep my office advised so that we can provide an opportunity for the Village of Fort Simpson to do some cost savings when that equipment is in the area.

Of course, the second one I raised in the House last week was the condition and work plan for Highway No. 7. I’m still curious about that. The Minister did indicate that the waiting on the engineering study was going to be completed this fall. I assume that it’s completed by now. When will they assess the engineering work that was completed? Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, the engineering study is not completed as of yet and we hope that will be done fairly quickly. We had a budget of $5 million to do reconstruction and, of course, as the Member is aware, a lot of the money that we spent for this year has gone to repairs of areas that are really challenging us. There are some areas where we’ve had the road fail on us and ditches that are needing replacement that we did not anticipate. So about three-quarters of the $5 million has been spent. We have in the budget $4 million for next year.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Just in terms of Fort Liard, or actually kilometre, I think, 0 to 38, which is the Fort Liard access, how much of that $4 million will be

dedicated to that section there, Mr. Chair? Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, that is still to be determined at this point.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

When the Minister and I were in Fort Liard a couple of weeks ago, residents, of course, expressed the interest of getting that section chipsealed or a portion thereof. Is that something that the Department of Transportation can look at? Because some sections are... Actually, they have been completed for a couple of years now. I don’t know if 0 to 38...38 kilometres there would be doable. If not, Mr. Chair, can the Minister at least commit to some kind of a work plan that within the perhaps three years that’s something that the department is looking at seriously, and up to and including on the capital plan, Mr. Chair? Thanks.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. I’m not sure the Minister can commit to the next Assembly but… Minister McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That will be a little difficult to tie our government for a multi-year investment plan. However, we certainly can commit to developing our engineering study and using that as a guide for future investment. It will certainly identify the areas that need to be placed as priority and attention that needs to be put on those areas. We will develop a multi-year work plan for that piece of highway, or the whole section of this highway; however, the funding will remain in the hands of each government as we progress. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

I don’t see why we can’t commit to the future there. If once the engineering report is complete, I would certainly like to see a developed work plan and at least we have that for the future, something to work with, because I believe that that baseline work will certainly confirm and at least solidify a departmental plan when it comes to expenditures and, of course, the degradation of the road, it would be nice to have that engineering study to do it, because the residents already know it there, Mr. Chair. Yes, I would certainly like to see a well-developed work plan and, of course, I would like to see it in the capital plan there, Mr. Chair; however, we’ll take the small steps and get that engineering work done and if the Minister and the department can at least come up with a work plan, I’m glad he’ll review it with me and I would like to share that with the community as well. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, as we indicated earlier, we haven’t firmed up our work plan for the long term as we’re still waiting for some information and some testing that’s being done, and to get the engineering reports back. It would be fairly easy, I guess, to look at portions of the road that are reconstructed to chipseal, but I am a little

hesitant as there is so much need for this Highway No. 7 that if we did take some money out of the construction costs to chipseal, then, of course, that would leave us with a little less to do reconstruction. So that’s going to be determined. The reality, of course, is Highway No. 7 has to be reconstructed right from start, from zero all the way to Checkpoint and that’s going to be a long-term investment and we need a plan to do so. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

I’d like to thank the Minister for those answers. Just to reiterate one more time, that at anytime that there’s a federal meeting, that he just continue to raise the issue that we want tourists and Canadians to view our spectacular North at Highway No. 7 at Fort Liard. It is one of the entry points and tourism numbers by road that Parks Canada just released that they’ve increased fly-ins into Nahanni National Park and I’m glad for that, but drive-ins, the numbers are just that much poorer, Mr. Chair, and it’s because of the condition of the road. I know that the amount of investment that the Minister is talking about is significant and certainly getting the federal government as a partner as we work towards developing our North would certainly go a long way, Mr. Chair. So as part of our federal engagement strategy, I really think perhaps we should maybe consider Highway No. 7 as one of the hot item topics, as it were, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

We’ll certainly keep that in mind. Every Member has raised issues that are hot item topics, and looking at our five-year needs, if we were to try and accommodate all of the projects and all of the needs that are out in the Territories -- there are many -- we’d probably need about a $2 billion budget for five years. But, Mr. Chairman, we’re anticipating we’re going to continue to talk to the federal government to reinforce the need that we have in our infrastructure and encourage them to invest in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Next on my list I have Mr. Krutko.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Maybe just a suggestion. I see $2 million on Highway No. 5. Maybe we could do Highway No. 7 to speed up the process.

My question is in regard to the Tuk resource gravel access road. I know I’ve been asking for the same type of arrangement for the Aklavik access road to their gravel source. There was a motion passed in this House supporting both projects, but again it seems like we are not as far ahead in regard to the Aklavik project as we were in regard to the Tuk project. So can the Minister give me an update on exactly where we are with the Aklavik gravel access road project and do we see any capital investment in that in the future, hopefully somewhere in the range that we gave to the Tuk project? I believe, in the budget, I see $1.4 million. So maybe you could

elaborate on what that $1.4 million, what the total costs for the Tuk resource road are to date.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. A couple of questions there. Minister McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Tuk access road funding came through the Building Canada Program and it’s allowed them to build a road to source 177. We’re still waiting to see from the federal government where investment is going to be in infrastructure for the next couple of years. We anticipate we’re going to have that discussion as things progress. We still also are not aware of what the federal government is planning to do with the stimulus program.

We do, however, have some commitment for investment on this access road to the gravel source with the community of Aklavik, and we’ve done a lot of work with the steering committee that was formed, and we did some baseline assessments and needed to do further research to bring it to the level of the project description report. We’ve made a submission to the federal government and are anticipating we’ll hear back sometime before Christmas. However, we are committed to following through with that and we want to sit down with the Aklavik steering committee and start that work and get that ongoing so we’ll be in a position to tap into any new federal programs that may come forward. We’ve also applied for and received approval to cost share a bridge along that route, that alignment, and we anticipate that’s going to move forward this winter and get the material on site and start construction over the next while. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

My other question was: I’ve looked in the budget and there’s $1.4 million for the Tuk resource gravel access road. Can you elaborate on what the $1.4 million is for?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

I apologize; I forgot the question. That amount is identified for investment in some finishing gravel and also royalties for the gravel. Thanks.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Maybe the Minister could elaborate on the royalty side. Are the royalties for access for gravel, or what’s the royalties for? What are you paying royalties for?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, for clarification, money identified here, that would go to royalties and it’s for our own material that was used.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Similar question as my colleague from Nahendeh in regard to some sort of dust control. In the past we have had a program for main street dust control. Back in the 14th Assembly there

were a few communities that had been identified and I know I have raised this issue with the Minister. Also, what we’re finding is that the communities that did receive the dust control in regard to main street chipseal, but the life of that

chipseal is pretty well up now and a lot of them originate off the highway system in regard to Fort Liard using that, for instance, Fort McPherson where they’ve done main street chipseal. So I know I have approached the Minister and I’ve raised questions in the House to the Minister about the possibility of expanding that program to work in conjunction with the Department of Transportation, the community, and the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs to see about partnering on some arrangement to deal with that dust control in the different communities. So can the Minister tell me, is there any possibility of working with your department? I know you’ve made commitments in the House to look at this, but I’d just like to know what arrangements can be made in regard to that possibility.

Also, I know we did receive some dollars from Building Canada for research money to look at the whole area of permafrost. So is that something that we can possibly look at? I believe in the budget there’s various highway chipseal overlay programs. Is there a possibility of seeing some work done, or even to work in partnership with the communities, the Department of Transportation and the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, the Main Street Dust Control Program was a program initiated by MACA. It was funded by MACA and the Department of Transportation provided the support and technical information and we continue to do a lot of the same kind of work that we did with that program, even though that program has sunsetted. We are in communication with several communities. We are talking to the community of Fort McPherson in the Member’s riding. We are also providing support to the community of Fort Providence, which is chipsealing all their roads next year. We’re also going to be communicating with the communities that are going to be in close proximity to some of the highway work that’s going to be done. Fort Resolution, for example, is in a good position to look at economies of scale as a chipper and all the equipment will be in that area. They wanted to venture into some investment in that area. Fort Simpson is probably another community that will have chipseal and equipment working in the area and probably could take advantage of it.

So we’ll communicate that information and we do still provide technical support to communities. We do respond to questions and inquiries that come from communities, to provide them with any kind of information that they have in this area of chipsealing and road prep. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Again, like my colleague from Nahendeh, I had an opportunity to drive down here from the Mackenzie Delta along the Dempster. I mean, no fault to the road, it was pretty wet and

pretty slippery. Again, I think it’s got to be expected from the roads that do have a clay base and we are seeing a real effect to those roads. I think we have to find either a new method of dealing with protecting the surface of our highways and reducing the overall operational costs and resurfacing costs to our highways year after year after year. I think we do have to look at the possibility of looking at some sort of surface appliance, whether it’s chipseal or good old Easy Street. I think that we have to make that investment.

I had the opportunity to drive on the roads through the Yukon. Most of their roads are chipsealed to most of their communities. With regard to travelling on Highway No. 97, I believe, in northern B.C. from the Alaska Highway to the NWT junction just before Fort Liard, they’ve resurfaced the whole highway. I think that if we can look at the long-term viability of resurfacing all our highways with some sort of means of protecting the hardtop.

Do we have a long-term capital investment plan looking at some sort of means of resurfacing our highways throughout the Northwest Territories and protecting our capital investment by way of infrastructure?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Our focus has been to invest in the reconstruction of our highways prior to providing chipseal. On Highway No. 8, for example, we intend to look at some type of surface protection as we move forward. However, our plan is to do the reconstruction up to Tsiigehtchic and then start to do either chipseal or some type of hardtop on our roads on Highway No. 8.

Other jurisdictions, of course, are using revenues from industry, oil and gas to upgrade their sections of road and we’re not in a position to do the same thing.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Committee, we’re on highways section, page 9-10, Department of Transportation, activity summary, highways, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $50.3 million. Agreed? Mr. Krutko.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

I just have another question to the Minister in the area of bridges. I know there was that federal program, I think it was $50 million-plus, and there was, I believe, a list of items that were put forward to the federal government. I think that’s another area we have to look at the possibility of putting bridges in place to replace the ferry operations. I know there are two bridges that were being discussed: the Bear River Bridge and the Peel River Bridge. I’d just like to ask the Minister what the status is of the request for the federal government P3 initiative of $50 million-plus projects. I know those were some of the projects that were put forward for consideration. I’d like to ask the Minister where we are on the Peel River Bridge.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m assuming the Member is referring to our application to P3 Canada to do some research in the area of financial investigation in ways we can be creative in trying to get the projects in the Northwest Territories to meet the criteria under the P3 Canada program. There are a number of projects we have looked at and right now don’t feel they meet the criteria but have good potential. We’ve asked for some dollars to investigate the process, with the aid of some financial experts. We have not received any word as to the status of that application and hopefully we’ll have some positive news in the next little while.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Once again, committee, we’re on page 9-10, Department of Transportation, activity summary, highways, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $50.3 million. Agreed?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Mr. Yakeleya.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few questions on the infrastructure on highways. Can we go back to that page?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Sorry; I thought you were summoning a Page there. Committee, let’s retract that last action and we’ll move back to page 9-10 on highways and go to Mr. Yakeleya.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, colleagues. I want to ask a question to the Minister in terms of the project description report funding and the push to construct the Mackenzie Valley Highway sometime within this century here. Can the Minister indicate the status of the project description funding and hopefully where that would carry us through to iron on the ground in terms of actual construction of the highway with reference to his exchange with Mr. Krutko on the piece of infrastructure that’s going to be needed on the Bear River Bridge to go ahead? Are those dollars identified in here? What are the results of finishing off this project description funding and the work that needs to move to the next level? Certainly that requires the federal government’s contribution. Does the all-weather road follow within a type of P3 concept? Are we moving in that direction or is that something that can be discussed at the next Assembly?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, we have signed agreements with a number of the aboriginal governments allowing the Mackenzie

Valley route up to Tuktoyaktuk. We have agreements for the Inuvik-Tuktoyaktuk portion. That research has been completed and the work in the Gwich’in Settlement Area is progressing. We have an agreement with the Gwich’in Tribal Council and we also have an agreement with the Tulita Land Corporation. We have yet to sign an agreement with the Fort Good Hope people and the Dehcho. A lot of discussion has taken place and I think we should have agreements in both those communities or both those areas fairly soon. Things are progressing well.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

The project description discussions, I would say, with the G’asho Got’ine, the Fort Good Hope and Colville Lake district, I believe that later on when I meet with the leaders tonight, I know they had some discussion around this area. They’re very confident that this government here is going to come to a conclusion and sign off a deal. They’re just wondering about... I guess they have to come to agreement on the numbers that they’re using right now. I feel that could be within a matter of days that they will come to an agreement.

My point is that the Minister has given a lot of support to the communities that do need roads in their regions and can this type of project description report evolve into projects that will make sense for people in my region, such as putting roads in the Sahtu? Some discussion about even building a road from Tulita to Norman Wells? Those types of issues. Is that where the project description can lead to, or does the Minister have other ideas as to once we finish all the project description reports, then we go to the next stage? I just wanted to flesh out some of the thoughts of the Minister on the department’s direction as to what’s possible out there in terms of this Assembly and moving on to the next Assembly on this very important issue.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

The work that we’re doing right now is trying to capture all the needs in terms of project description reports for the whole of the Mackenzie Valley Highway all the way up to Tuk from Wrigley. We expect to have all that information. We’ve given ourselves a two-year window to gather all that. Some areas are progressing faster than others. We’ve also completed an economic analysis on the whole Mackenzie Valley Highway system. It’s come back positive. With all the information we’ve gathered, we feel we’re in a very good position to move forward.

We have to recognize, of course, that it can’t be done without federal investment in any fashion. Whether we consider being creative in terms of putting together a P3 package, it would still involve considerable investment from the federal government, who still holds the responsibility for road construction across the Northwest Territories;

new road construction. We can’t leave out the fact that as part of new road construction we also have to be able to accommodate the O and M costs. A road from Wrigley to Tuktoyaktuk would have a very significant cost to operate and maintain. That would have to be paid for by either this government or the federal government or a combination of both. So there’s a number of things that we’d have to take into consideration other than just finding the resources to build it.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

The approach to the Mackenzie Valley Highway has been long discussed within these Assemblies and the people down the Mackenzie Valley. Certainly we recognize that the federal government will play a huge part in terms of constructing this road here. I look forward to the day when this government and this Minister can bring forward a P3 discussion or we can have some discussions as to the possibilities out there in terms of building part of the Mackenzie Valley Highway. We have yet to see a P3 discussion or paper in front of this Legislative Assembly to look at infrastructure such as this. So we’re very far back in terms of actually putting the steel on the ground, to cut a road into the Sahtu and build a road up to Mackenzie Highway No. 8 up in Inuvik. I just want to make note to the Minister that we have all these things going for us. Are there other things such as the P3 discussion that we can have to say this is one possibility we could look at? Right now we have nothing in front of us to have a meaningful consultation with our people in the regions.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

The issue of the Mackenzie Valley Highway has been on the drawing board, has been on the radar screen for many, many years and with many governments. This is the furthest we’ve moved it with the partnership with the federal government in the history of the development of this road, I think since the last stretch was constructed. The 16th Assembly

has been able to secure some funding to do the PDR and I think that is going to provide some of the backup information that maybe was missing. We’ll be able to put a very good business case together to bring it forward.

We are also securing dollars to do a study on infrastructure projects that could fit, how could we make them fit with the concept of P3. Right now, there are no projects under the Mackenzie Valley road for P3 consideration. There is no revenue source. The traffic volumes are just not there to be able to pay for a large piece of infrastructure, or even a portion of it, through tolls or through fees of that nature. It would take somebody to pay for it first and then recover our costs, and you’re not going to attract a partner that would do that unless there’s an ability to recover that through revenues. That’s something that has to be looked at, and we plan to do that with these new dollars once we get approval from the federal government.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, just in closing, these numbers don’t work for us. Certainly, they work against us in terms of the cost-benefit analysis, P3 and the revenue and putting up a huge infrastructure such as the Mackenzie Valley Highway. You know, unless we have a real kind heart down in Ottawa that says we’ll give you a certain amount, billions of dollars, to build this Mackenzie Valley Highway, I think we have to move beyond this type of thinking. It has to be a political move in lining up with the northern agenda of this government, in terms of sovereignty, in terms of a whole bunch of other things that would make this highway a reality. If we were to go on the numbers and what it’s going to cost us and the small amount of impact that it’s going to have, we’re not going to do it. I think we have to move outside this realm and we have to move it to a level of sovereignty and security and other issues that the federal government will say yes, we want to spend money on this road and let’s get going. The $1.8 billion is not much when you look at the whole big picture of infrastructure in Canada, so we have to have more discussions at a different table. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Would the Minister care to respond with a comment?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, we don’t disagree with the Member. We’ve used the very same arguments that he’s laid out and it doesn’t change the fact that we need $1.8 billion plus O and M to put this project forward. We continue to make those arguments. We meet with the federal government on a regular basis. We will be meeting again with several of the federal Ministers in early November and we will put the arguments forward. We’ve included it in all our reports to the federal government. We’ve also laid out the needs, we’ve laid out the arguments, and we think we’re moving forward into a better position to develop a stronger business case and we need a lot more of the research to do that. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Minister. Committee, we are on page 9-10. Mr. Krutko.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

I just have a question in regard to the budget itself. It seems like we’re putting a lot of focus around chipseal, but I’m just wondering why have we not left that open ended in regard to surface materials and not stipulate chipseal. Chipseal limits you to a specific product. There are other products being produced such as cold asphalt. There are different types of concrete appliances being used. There are other countries in the world that are coming up with new ways of applying surface to different types of products that you mix. I’d just like to know why is it that we continue to stipulate the word chipseal, because I think it limits the ability to use other products and it

seems like we are limiting the abilities of other types of products being used. I’d just like to know why is it that we continue to stipulate chipseal in the budgetary process when we talk about resurfacing, regardless if it’s Highway No. 5 or in regard to Highway No. 7, Highway No. 3. I’d like to know if we are open to other types of projects in the Northwest Territories besides chipseal.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, chipseal is the preferred material for us to use as we are familiar with chipseal. We know the durability of chipseal. We have in the last little while been experimenting with putting the fibre barrier underneath chipseal and we’ve also looked at different ways that we can improve, including double layering. Mr. Chairman, it’s also the most cost-effective process to use. Asphalt and other products, including concrete, are very expensive. We have involved a company out of Yellowknife to do some testing on their product and right now we still haven’t been able to get more cost-effective material that does a fairly good job. The lifecycle is around five years and it’s proving to be the best way to go for us. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chair, I think, looking at it by way of the usage over a period of time, like you say, five years is usually the life of the product where you basically have to rip it up and redo the whole thing again. I’m just wondering if that’s something that’s the problem with chipseal, it has a short duration of usage and then you basically have to redo it again. I think it’s something that we should be looking at like a product that can possibly double the lifecycle of chipseal, but more importantly, look at other products. You touched on it when you said it’s the cheapest way of applying, but that’s what happens when you go cheap, you have to redo it every five years and it’s going to cost you to continue to resurface all our highways using that type of product.

Again, I think that we should be opened minded to the other different types of products and I think that’s something we should be looking at. Have we been in consultation with our jurisdictions, say northern B.C. or the Yukon or northern Quebec or other places that have tried different types of products? I’d just like to know if we are open minded to looking at other products and try to get more of the lifecycle costs out of the project than simply having to replace chipseal every five years.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, yes, we monitor what’s going on in other jurisdictions and we do have discussions with our jurisdictions as to what their best practices are. We have also experimented with several companies on trying to find a better way to make the products last. The reality, of course, is the actual concrete mix is probably 10 times the cost of chipseal and we could replace the chipseal for many, many years at a

lower cost than what it costs to apply the other products, and that would really restrict our budget.

We only have a limited amount of investment in the area of hard topping the roads and if we were going to start applying concrete to all our roads or another product that is not of the same cost, we would have very few of our roads covered at this point.

Our plan is to have all the roads chipsealed as we move forward. It’s a long-term plan but it’s something that we know is probably the best for the protection of our roads.

Our gravel roads deteriorate very fast in certain conditions, including wet weather. Chipseal is a product that protects our roads. So that is our plan as a department and as a government. Of course, it’s probably not going to move fast enough for some people and we’re going to have this debate for many years to come. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chair, there’s something that was brought to my attention, is that there are products out there that you can recycle, reuse, in regard to different types of appliances. So I’m just wondering: Is that something that we’re looking at as the government by way of reusing a lot of these surfacing materials that can be recycled and reused than simply dumped into a landfill after you rip it off. What are we doing to look at the recycle availability of different products so that we don’t have to continue to reapply new products year after year and consider looking at the option of reusing a lot of these materials that we paying for time and time again, not realizing that a lot of that material is sitting in landfills but they could be recycled and reused. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chair, I probably would have to ask the Member to provide the information as to what he is specifically talking about. We do reuse some of the product that we buy from road services. We use them in a different fashion, however. We don’t mill it back up and put it in form of chipseal, but we use it as fill. I am not aware of any other recyclable way to do it. I am not aware of the situation that the Member is referring to. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, I believe that just looking out in the parking lot here, the Legislative Assembly, they ripped up all the chipseal that was here. Basically they hauled it to the landfill. A lot of that material could have been recycled because it is an oil-based product. It can be basically reused. I would just like to know, as a government, I think that is the type of stuff we should be looking at if we are looking at a long-term cost of providing this throughout the Northwest Territories, but also realizing there are savings to recycling materials regardless of what the product is. I would just like to request that the Minister seriously look at that issue and maybe investigate it a little more and see if there are those products out there. We should start

using those products so we can recycle and reuse and continue to basically resurface all these materials over and over again in my favourite Highway No. 5. I know that highway has been done a few times over. Again, we are spending another $6 million on a highway basically that has been done. It is a great highway, but no traffic.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I don’t believe we have any product that ends up in the landfills. We recycle a lot of the stuff that is part of the reconstruction, and the material that is dug up, we put in as part of fill. We don’t, however, use it again in form of new chipseal. I am not sure of the technologies there to do that. I can’t speak for where the chipseal that was ripped up from the Legislative Assembly parking lot went, but I can say, with comfort, that most of the material we tear up, we recycle.

The Highway No. 5 investment is something that is needed. I am not sure if the Member is aware, but we have challenges on that highway. The highway has developed, over the years, many sink holes as the material underneath is mostly limestone and water is eroding. We have to continue to upgrade it to make sure it is safe and that is something that is challenging us, of course, probably through the climate change issue, but that is an issue that will have to be addressed on a long-term and continual basis.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Minister. Next on my list is Mr. Yakeleya.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I want to say to the Minister of Transportation that I wanted to express my appreciation to his staff and work with the communities of Colville Lake, Fort Good Hope and Tulita in terms of the successful completion of the runway extension in Tulita, and working on Colville Lake while it is still in the process, and then working a little more on Fort Good Hope in terms of their runway extension. I wanted to ask the Minister that future working relationships within our region continue and, more specifically, with Deline in that they’re asking about their runway and, of course, there have been some meetings with the Minister and the leadership of Deline in terms of their runway and what is possible.

I want to ask the Minister regarding what little amount of funding that we have, is there any type of funding that could be stopped by the federal government through this department in terms of accessing other dollars that we don’t know about that possibly the leadership of Deline could tap into? Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I take it we are back to airports. Mr. Chairman, the Member referenced dollars that we

don’t know about. All the dollars that we know about, he knows about. We are trying to be very open and up front with the information.

Mr. Chairman, we have done a number of airport projects in the Member’s riding. In Fort Good Hope the work that was embarked on in that community for the airport is done. We also completed the airport expansion in Tulita. We are about halfway through Colville Lake. We don’t have any dollars identified in this budget for Deline. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Yakeleya, did you wish to ask more questions on airports? Okay. Mr. Yakeleya.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Mr. Chair, I apologize. I will stick to the highways. Mr. Chairman. I wanted to ask in terms of the safety operations on the winter road. The Minister has made comments to the safety of the Mackenzie.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Excuse me, Mr. Yakeleya, for interrupting you. The next section is actually road licensing and safety. Would you like to hold your question for that section? I will take that nod as a yes.

Once again, committee, we are on highways, page 9-10, about to move to road licensing and safety. On page 9-10, Department of Transportation, activity summary, highways, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $50.3 million. Does committee agree?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, committee. The next section we have is on page 9-13 through 9-15. Road licensing and safety. On page 9-14 is the financial section. Mr. Yakeleya.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the issue that I want to bring up on this part is with the winter roads within the Sahtu in terms of the amount of traffic that potentially could happen this winter, and past winter in terms of the conditions of the roads and the amount of signs that were supposed to be there. Sometimes these signs have a habit of falling off the trees or on the ground. I want to ask the Minister regarding securing more safety devices so this issue is upgraded to more of a standard of road safety measurements of our highways in the North here and give some more attention to the ones in the region that I represent. Can the Minister tell me how he is going to do this under this budget here?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister McLeod.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, the investment in the Sahtu has been considerable in the last while. We have done a lot of work. We completed the bypass roads in Tulita. In Norman Wells, we did the approaches at Elliot Creek, Hannah Creek, and Donnelly Creek. We did grade repairs at Casey’s Gulch. We did grade

improvement at Gibson’s, Christina, Francis, Jungle Ridge and Canyon Creek. We did a lot of road widening. All these contribute to the safety of the travelling public on the winter roads. We have also heard from the Member’s residents/constituents that were concerned about the signage. We have committed to have the signs enhanced and more signs put up. We are talking to the company that is doing some exploration in the area and have asked them to entertain a partnership arrangement to enhance the road system. We are hoping that they will come back with positive answers or positive commitment.

In this budget we still plan to continue to do great improvements of $1 million. So, Mr. Chairman, there is a lot of work that has been done in terms of improving the safety issues and more that will happen. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Norman Yakeleya

Norman Yakeleya Sahtu

Certainly the Sahtu has, as Mr. Minister has indicated and listed off, quite an impressive list of projects, and rightly so; it should be. That is the type of attitude we want from this government in terms of the safety of the public. Not just in parts of the Northwest Territories, we also have to look in areas of the whole North where we need to have safety. The Minister himself drove on the winter road, he knows the amount of signs that should be up there, in terms of his inventory, and the Minister knows the conditions of our roads having once been called by myself a goat road and I hope we have moved up to a different level of standards in the Sahtu.

The Minister has also indicated the number of safety measures that could be put in the Sahtu. I look forward to them. I tell you that these roads could be dangerous as more and more people are travelling on these roads, more and more young drivers, and because our operators in the Sahtu have done such an excellent job in terms of maintaining our winter roads, some of our young drivers are going pretty fast on them. There are sharp corners, there are some big hills that need to be cut down, there are some areas that still need to be worked on, so I expect this government to live up to the standards of roads and ensure the safety of my people.

I have been on that winter road, I was in a vehicle, I did get hit by one of the big trucks on a narrow road. There are people on this road, they are my people, young children and old people, and so safety is something that is very important to us.

I wanted to ensure the Minister knows that putting these signs up means something. I am glad there is some work being done on it, no doubt about it. It is long past due and it is about time that some attention is being given to the Sahtu winter roads. I look forward to seeing what type of plans he has in terms of enhancing safety in the Sahtu region.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

The communities in the Sahtu have voiced a lot of concern about safety issues and great improvements to this road for quite a while and there has been attention paid. We have been investing some dollars over the last at least dozen years to improve the road system and I think we are starting to see the results of that.

There have been a lot of bridges built. We have committed and have embarked on putting up signs. There is going to be roughly 98 to 100 signs that will be placed at five-kilometre intervals between Wrigley and Fort Good Hope. There will be over 400 signs, warning signs, over 150 hazard marker signs at the bridges and there is going to be 21 directional signs. We are also going to be putting up signs, or have put up signs, that will identify the creeks and there will be other information signs that will be put up. Mr. Chairman, we are putting a total of 700 signs up in and on the winter road system.

We are doing a lot of work to realign different parts of the road, including Bosworth Creek. We will do more grade improvements at Bogg Canyon and also erosion control at Tulita bypass and other areas. We will do grade work to improve the site distance. We also have the ability now to provide highway patrol in the Sahtu and we expect that will have an effect as there is going to be a stronger presence in the region.

So there is a lot of work and we know the condition impacts all of its users. We know the condition impacts all of the communities and we will continue to provide improvements to the Mackenzie Valley winter road and also to the community of Deline that is in the Member’s riding. That, along with Colville Lake, will receive investment in this budget. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, Minister McLeod. Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Committee, we are on page 9-14, Department of Transportation, activity summary, road licensing and safety, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $698,000. Agreed?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, committee. That completes the detail on the department. I would like to now turn to page 9-2 for the departmental summary. So for the Department of Transportation, department summary, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $62.703 million. Agreed?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, committee. That concludes our assignment here and I would like to call on... Excuse me. Just to put the cap on this, committee, is committee agreed

that this completes the Department of Transportation?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

Thank you, committee. I would like to thank the department, the Minister and his witness, Mr. Neudorf, and ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort Mr. Neudorf from the Chamber and call on Mr. Abernethy.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you Mr. Chairman. I move that we report progress.

---Carried

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Bob Bromley

I will now rise and report progress.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Can I have the report of Committee of the Whole, Mr. Bromley.

Report of Committee of the Whole
Report of Committee of the Whole

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Tabled Document 66-16(5), NWT Capital Estimates 2011-2012, and would like to report progress. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of Committee of the Whole be concurred with. Mahsi.

Report of Committee of the Whole
Report of Committee of the Whole

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. A motion is on the floor. Do you have a seconder? The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

---Carried

Item 22, third reading of bills. Mr. Clerk, orders of the day.

Orders of the Day
Orders of the Day

Tim Mercer Clerk Of The House

Orders of the day for Tuesday, October 19, 2010, at 1:30 p.m.:

1. Prayer

2. Ministers’

Statements

3. Members’

Statements

4. Returns to Oral Questions

5. Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

6. Acknowledgements

7. Oral

Questions

8. Written

Questions

9. Returns to Written Questions

10. Replies to Opening Address

11. Petitions

12. Reports of Standing and Special Committees

13. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

14. Tabling of Documents

15. Notices of Motion

16. Notices of Motion for First Reading of Bills

17. Motions

18. First Reading of Bills

19. Second Reading of Bills

- Bill 12, An Act to Amend the Liquor Act

20. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of

Bills and Other Matters

- Tabled Document 4-16(5), Executive Summary of the Report of the Joint Review Panel for the Mackenzie Gas Project

- Tabled Document 30-16(5), 2010 Review of Members’ Compensation and Benefits

- Tabled Document 38-16(5), Supplementary Health Benefits - What We Heard

- Tabled Document 62-16(5), Northern Voices, Northern Waters: NWT Water Stewardship Strategy

- Tabled Document 66-16(5), NWT Capital Estimates 2011-2012

- Bill 4, An Act to Amend the Social Assistance Act

- Bill 8, Social Work Profession Act

- Bill 9, An Act to Amend the Tourism Act

21. Report of Committee of the Whole

22. Third Reading of Bills

23. Orders of the Day

Orders of the Day
Orders of the Day

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until Tuesday, October 19, 2010, at 1:30 p.m.

---ADJOURNMENT

The House adjourned at 5:10 p.m.