Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The committee today would like to deal with Committee Report 3-16(5), Standing Committee on Social Programs Report on the Review of the Child and Family Services Act. We would like to proceed with general comments today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Does the committee agree?

With that, we will take a short break and begin with Committee Report 3-16(5).

---SHORT RECESS

I would like to call Committee of the Whole back to order. Prior to the break we agreed that we would begin with Committee Report 3-16(5), Standing Committee on Social Programs Report on the Review of the Child and Family Services Act. Are there general comments on the bill? Mr. Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just my opening comments with respect to this report. Early in the life of this Assembly, I had constituents start to come to me and talk about concerns that they had with the Child and Family Services Act. Quite frankly, in the beginning I couldn’t tell whether it was problems that we actually had with the act or whether it was problems that we had with the implementation. There were issues that certainly through the review become clear that there are a few gaps in the act. There are some things in the act that do need to be looked at and a few things that do need to be changed in the act.

Overall, it is my opinion that this is a pretty good act. It has a lot of positive aspects. The one thing

that I feel is quite positive is the requirement for community committees. I think that is a mechanism whereby communities can be empowered to take on some responsibility with respect to the apprehension of children within the communities. Unfortunately, as we all know now, the act really wasn’t implemented in several ways. Going out to the communities and listening to what the people had to say was incredibly valuable for me. I feel like I learned an awful lot about some of the difficulties that individuals are having in these communities, particularly with respect to the apprehension of the children.

As a committee, we came up with a number of recommendations. I support those recommendations. I am not going to talk about the specific recommendations. We will do that later when we are out of general comments and we are more on the detailed aspect of things and we are talking about those recommendations. I do want to talk about some of the key areas that I heard and my colleagues heard.

One of the key areas that I think came up in every community we came to is prevention. Prevention is key. We need, as a government, to take more proactive steps to help families; to help families that are in poverty, to help families that are in crisis. There are a number of things that this government is doing that are good. The Healthy Families Program is a very good program. Everywhere we went where this program is delivered, we heard positive statements. People like this program. In those communities it is adding value. Unfortunately, we are only delivering this program in four communities. We need to expand this program. We need to take other steps in prevention.

Earlier last month I attended an anti-poverty workshop. This was a good workshop. We had an opportunity to talk about some of the things that are leading families down difficult paths. Poverty is one thing that is obviously leading people to situations where their children are being apprehended for things like neglect. We need to work on an Anti-Poverty Strategy as the Government of the Northwest Territories. We make reference to that in this report.

One of the other areas that we heard about is how this system is perceived as adversarial, how this system seems to be combative rather than collaborative. We have made a lot of recommendations about changing our mindset around child and family services, about becoming more collaborative, and becoming more cooperative, and working with our families, and working with the parents and working with the communities. This is something that I think we need to do in order to find reasonable solutions to the challenges that we are facing with respect to child

apprehension. We must help families. We must work with them. Fighting them is not the solution.

I have mentioned already the child and family service committees in every community. So far we have had one or, rather, we attempted to have one in Fort McPherson and the first round did not work out very well. To my understanding, they are now establishing a second committee in the community, but there is a lot more involvement from the Department of Health and Social Services. From what I understand, it looks like it is going to be a success. I think we should be very proud of that. We should be proud of the work that the community has done but also of the work that Health and Social Services has done to work with that community to actually get this thing up and running. It’s a step. It’s just a step. We need to have community committees in every community that we have.

One of the things that we heard over and over again is that when a social worker is called in due to concerns about a child in a home, the child may be taken out on a temporary basis at which point the social worker and the parents have to develop a plan of care where they work together -- I wonder if anybody’s listening -- where they work together to come up with a solution on what the parents and the family need to do in order to get their child back into the home. Unfortunately, a lot of the time one of the things that comes up is mental health and addictions. And the social worker and the family agree that one of the steps that need to be taken is mental health and addictions counselling of which there is none in the community that these people live.

Right off the top we are setting these families up for failure. We are not helping them; we are hurting them. Children need to be with their families where appropriate, which is most of the time.

We need, if we want to be successful, to be more proactive on mental health and addictions counselling; which, for the record, is also something we should be doing with respect to an Anti-Poverty Strategy. Two things we could be doing at the same time. The Department of Health and Social Services needs to be a little bit more proactive on providing front-line, in-the-community alcohol and drug counselling for those individuals in crisis.

Another thing we heard is the frustration that people have in the fact that they don’t even understand the act and what is happening to them as people and families. The act, although for the most part it is a good act, is confusing. It is very, very confusing. It is very complex. We did not hear one person who has gone through the system indicate that they had any understanding of the system at all. We need to be a little bit proactive there as a department. We need to get in there and we need to do some plain language work on this act. We need to make sure

that people understand it. We need to do more communications. We need to educate our people so that they understand the act. We’ve made recommendations to that effect as well.

We’ve also talked about placements. A lot of the time, maybe not as much now, but often a child will be taken out of a family and placed in a foster home with a loving foster home who cares and wants to work with these children and do well, but that foster home may not be of the same cultural background as the child that has been taken out. This is unfortunate. We need to do a better job of working with families, grandparents, uncles, aunts, individuals who can take these children with a little support from the government. Right now if a grandparent takes a child, they get no financial assistance, yet they still have to pay the bills, they still have to buy the food. We’re not helping, we’re hurting. We need to make sure that we take those steps and find ways to allow and support families who take these children on short-term and longer-term placements if necessary.

We heard from the social workers as well. Social workers have an incredibly important job. I don’t envy them. I wouldn’t want to be an individual that has to go into a home and remove a child. I can’t imagine how difficult that is for the social worker and I can’t imagine how difficult that is for the family. Sometimes it needs to be done. Thank goodness our social workers are professionals. I’d like to applaud the social workers for all the hard work that they do. We know it’s a difficult job. They expressed concerns. They have concerns about the policy manuals. They have concerns about the regulations. They have concerns about the act themselves. They have asked for plain language documents. They have asked for more training. The department needs to do this. The department needs to do this so that the social workers can be more collaborative and less confrontational. Not that they are, but the system is. They want to help. They don’t want to hurt. Right now, often we’re hurting.

We’ve thought about these recommendations long and we’ve considered them. I stand behind them as a member of this committee and I think if we move forward with these recommendations, we can make a difference to these young people and these families. Yes, it’s going to cost some money. But the long-term benefits of this, if you tie this in with an Anti-Poverty Strategy, are significant and will save us money in many, many areas down the road. These recommendations talk to the Housing Corporation. These recommendations talk to Education, Culture and Employment. These recommendations talk to Justice. We all need to work together as partners to solve these problems. This isn’t just a health problem. This is a GNWT problem. This is a people problem. We all need to work together to find these solutions.

I encourage all the Members to read this report, think about the recommendations, and let’s all work together to help the families of the Northwest Territories.

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Next on the list I have Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’d like to start by really acknowledging the superior level of support we had in putting this report together. I’d like to start with our research staff. We had Regina Pfeifer, Robin Stewart and Lee Selleck, all of whom put their stamp into this work and went beyond the call. The Clerk’s office contributed hugely and I’d like to recognize the committee clerk, Gail Bennett, who is very professional and thorough in her support with a keen eye for the detail that’s required to do a good job here. My colleague, MLA for Great Slave, Glen Abernethy put the motion on the floor and was instrumental in getting this review underway. I want to recognize that huge contribution. I also appreciate our chair, Mr. Tom Beaulieu, and other fellow Members on the Standing Committee on Social Programs, Ms. Wendy Bisaro and Mr. David Krutko, chair. Also we had three consultants who had significant contributions: Cindy Blackstock, Bruce MacLaurin and Sharon Sutherland. Thanks to them. The Minister and her staff and many others contributed in many ways helping with arrangements and advice and so on. And to all those who contributed with the arrangements and mechanics of our consultation, travel, meetings, report generation and printing were all much appreciated.

I have to say that the highest regard goes out to those constituents and family members throughout the Northwest Territories who contributed the real material we needed to hear and learn about in putting this report together. Some of them we heard before the idea of this review and it was on their contributions from constituents that we recognized the need here. The residents of the Northwest Territories, family people throughout our jurisdictions certainly affirmed the decision of the standing committee to conduct this review. A huge thank you to those people who participated and sometimes having to speak through considerable emotion and pain but importantly sharing their vital experience.

The four key points come to me just in terms of needing to be highlighted in general comments here. I guess the most fundamental issue, one that is not a surprise, is that the health of our children, families and communities are the crux of everything we do. They’re what this review was about. They’re what so much of what we do is about. That’s the fundamental issue.

As my colleague has mentioned, the huge opportunities for prevention are out there waiting to be taken advantage of. Right now they’re hardly

being recognized in terms of the dollars and programs that we have in place.

Other things that became apparent very quickly and repeatedly are that the issues involved are intertwined with many other of our basic and serious challenges, including poverty, addictions, loss of culture and issues of literacy. Again, those are very specific things that will require cross-departmental response, government-wide response.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the ultimate answers are to be found at home, in our families, in our homes, in our communities and in our cultures. Government, indeed, has a crucial role in engaging all of these entities and providing them with the appropriate types and amounts of support to implement the solutions they know are required.

The cost of children in care is high and rising. If we are to do an effective and good job at addressing that and reversing that trend, there are opportunities for savings. As has been noted, this report calls for additional resources towards Child and Family Services Act implementation and revision. I just want to say, frankly, for the record, that I will be standing in support of these initiatives as we go forward with budgets. I’ll leave it there. Thank you for this opportunity.

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Next on the list I have the chair of the standing committee, Mr. Beaulieu.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, felt it was quite an experience to review the act because of the nature of the work that we did as a committee to go through and review the act and talk to the communities about how the act has impacted on the lives of some of the community members that came out and spoke at our meetings. I agree with the comments made by the two previous committee members and the people that supported us in our review.

Also, in addition to what they said, I’d like to thank the people that we worked with in Alberta. It was a good way to start to see what works down there. With the government down there, it seems like they had the masses in order and the money to be able to do a lot of things that we in the NWT probably couldn’t afford to do, but it was something that maybe we could look at scaling down some of what they do while capturing some of their ideas and making them work for the Territories.

Throughout all our meetings, we met with a lot of foster parents. I thought that there were many, many good foster parents who had all kinds of stories and were very hardworking and dedicated people supporting some of the foster children that they were supporting. I thought that was important.

I thought that one of the key things was in our review, was to try to find a way to make the social

workers do social work rather than just child protection work. Social workers were so busy in the child protection area, apprehensions, court and so on, that they were not able to do the social work that is required of them to go into the homes and work on prevention. They’re so busy trying to deal with the issues at hand that it was hard for them to free themselves up to do social work, working with the families and so on, and do prevention.

I guess growing up in the Territories I have a lot of friends that were foster children and I know a lot of people in the Territories that were taken away from their homes at a very young age, and it’s not a high percentage of their people that turned their lives completely around to live in society today and function and so on; whereas, a lot of these foster kids have been jumping from foster home to foster home to foster home to residential school back to foster home and stuff. I mean, many of the kids were in residential school and at the end of the year had nowhere to go. When the school year ended they didn’t have a home to go back to for a couple of months until the next school year started and so on. We don’t want to see that type of thing prevail; some of the stuff I talked about earlier in Alberta where they had supported the kids that went to school throughout the summer and so on.

Another thing that I found that was a bit of a dilemma, I think, for families up here was a little bit of what Mr. Abernethy touched on, and that was there’s a fine line between the grandparents being paid weekend babysitters and foster care. Somehow throughout this act, we had to try to find a way where if the children are in jeopardy in any way whatsoever, that the social worker is in there working with the family, with the grandparents and so on and placing those kids in those homes and being supported by the department and by the whole foster parent program.

They have issues where if the foster kids are taken by the social worker and placed, then there’s compensation paid to the placement area where the kids are put or the foster parents. Yet the grandparents don’t want to take that risk, or families don’t want to take that risk so they intervene before the social worker intervenes and they end up protecting the child from apprehension, but the end result is that they don’t receive any financial support. That is one of the key items I’m hoping that can be resolved through this review, that when the grandparents are taking the kids and it is a legitimate issue where it’s not just because the parents are having an issue for the weekend or having an issue for a week or so, that the kids end up in the grandparents’ home -- you know, it’s legitimate and it’s necessary – and that’s where I feel that the social worker can go in and work with the families to support those family members.

I thought that was something that would free up a lot of time for the social workers to do other work, going back to that family and doing some social work and dealing with some of the issues and so on.

I guess to kind of close the loop on this, I thought that some of the access to treatment was a bit of an issue. I think that only one treatment facility is available in the Territories and that most of the communities we talked to felt that treatment right there in their hometown on the land, in cultural camps and so on was the way to go; by treating the whole family. Just sending one member to a treatment facility somewhere in the South or in Hay River, one member at a time, to try to deal with any addiction issues that may be causing issues with child care was not working. I think that this government should support the addictions counselling and addictions treatment closer to home.

That is some of what we’ve made recommendations on and some of the stuff that I felt was the big key items in our report that would improve the situation for our children and families in the NWT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Next on the list I have Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am happy to provide some comments on the work that the Social Programs committee did with regard to reviewing the Child and Family Services Act. The most significant for me was that they came over to the community of Fort Liard as well as Fort Simpson. The residents were really pleased to see committee in their communities and they did share many of their concerns. Once we got the debate and the discussion going and the reason why committee was there, people began to understand and identify some of the core issues that they had every time they experienced apprehensions and the authority that the act provides over children in our smaller communities, and a lot of them are certainly aboriginal, Mr. Chairman.

What a lot of people were saying was that aboriginal culture and language has to be taken into consideration if and when we’re going to make changes to the act. The act certainly recognizes custom adoption, but when it comes to the opposite end like apprehensions or grandparents wanting to get involved, they can, they’re able to take care of their grandchildren, but legally that’s like an apprehension and there’s no authority for them to do it. But all they want to do is to take the child away from a violent situation. Well, it doesn’t even have to be violent, just basically drinking in the house, and they want to care for that child for the weekend, but the law just doesn’t provide for that. I think some of the people in Fort Simpson and Fort Liard raised that issue and I certainly support that.

As well, the review, and I’m sure committee heard, it’s actually in the report too just talking about the residential school system. Recently it opened up that whole debate about the residential school system and the act kind of brings back the direct experiences that ourselves had experienced at our age and our parents and the parents before them, because the residential school system has been in the North almost two or three generations, Mr. Chairman.

I think the key thing is that we are very happy that the act is being reviewed and very happy that committee came out to communities and wanted input. And they got input, especially in my riding to say, okay, you know we actually have a chance here to make some positive changes that reflect our cultural identity, that reflect some of the realities of our needs.

I think a few Members already commended the front-line workers and I would certainly like to do the same, because they are there day in and day out. I think the recommendations speak about providing more support and more training, and I certainly support that as well. Having knowledgeable front-line workers in the organization certainly helps with smooth transitions, especially because there are cases where constituents have come to me and they’re saying the law is overbearing, you know, I really feel that my rights have been violated.

However, the literal translation of the act does say that apprehensions have to happen and it’s kind of like a judgment call. At the same time there are alternatives out there in working with the community, knowing that we’ve got caring grandparents out there that you can call and mediate, and having people in our justice system because of the act when something could have been mitigated or else finding alternative solutions I think would help our system. But we’ve just got to work with the act and try and write these into the act at the time we’re going to make changes, Mr. Chair. So just a few comments.

Once again, seeing the amount of work that committee put into it, pleased to see the healthy communities. Once again, a pat on the back to our front-line workers who are out there doing this every day. I certainly, as an MLA and along with the other committee members, commend them for the work that they’re doing. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Next on my list is Ms. Bisaro.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’m really pleased to be able to make some remarks with regard to the Child and Family Services Act Review committee report. It was very exciting to me to be part of this process and I think that the end result is a very valid one and I think it’s an excellent, excellent result.

It was a year, pretty much, from start to finish for the motion to get through the House until we submitted the report. It was almost exactly a year and it was an exhaustive process, it was a very comprehensive process and I think the end result shows that it was well worth the efforts on behalf of everybody involved.

I echo the comments that have already been made by committee members to thank the people who had a hand in assisting us with the report, making all our travel arrangements, making our room and our meeting arrangements, helping us within the communities, setting up meetings for us within the communities. The staff certainly did a huge amount of work relative to the report. Last, but not least, the people who did come to all of our meetings, all of our focus groups who provided us with their input. It was extremely valuable.

My belief, and I think it was pretty much confirmed by the people that we met with, is that the act itself is pretty good. There are not a lot of major changes required to the act, but there are a fair number of changes that are required in the implementation of the act and that, from what we heard from the people that we met with, is basically the problem. The implementation of the act needs fixing.

In particular what struck me, and I have to say it’s interesting that I can listen to other members of the committee and their comments on the report and we all have a different approach, each one of us, to how we are commenting on this report and it’s wonderful that we all heard the same thing. We went to the same places, we worked on the same project, but we obviously are coming at it from different perspectives and that’s a very good thing. What struck me particularly from I would say every one of our meetings and with stakeholders and with individuals in communities, and also in our discussions in committee, what struck me probably the most is the need that was expressed to keep children at home either with their parents or with an extended family member. Removing the kids from the community was seen as an absolute huge difficulty and it was one thing which I would say, if anything comes out of this report, we need to make huge efforts to keep kids within the community. The recommendations from the report reflect the need to keep children within their family, within their home, within their community.

The thing that is necessary, though, if we do that, if we keep the children in the community, we have to then provide adequate supports to either the parents, the child and family services committee within the communities, to extended family members if they’re caring for the kids. There is a lack of supports within the communities that does not allow for adequate implementation of the act and it creates a lot of problems. If we remove a child from the parents and require the parents to

undergo some sort of counselling, is that counselling available within that community? In most cases no. That’s the sort of thing that we have to do. If we’re going to provide supports, we need to make sure if we’re going to keep kids at home and in the community we then have to provide supports to the parents and the families in the community.

We also heard a great deal about a very large hole in the act, and that’s the lack of services for children between ages 16 and 18. That gap was identified a number of times. I think it’s one that was evident before we ever started this review, but it’s one that absolutely must be filled. We have any number of children who are left without any kind of services because they happen to be between the ages of 16 and 18.

The report has many recommendations which are directed towards the administration of the act, basically what’s being done at the department level and by the GNWT personnel. Like my colleagues, in terms of front-line staff, I absolutely wish to commend the work that they do. It is a very difficult job, it’s certainly not one that I could do and I’m grateful that there are people out there that can do jobs that I don’t feel I can do, and this is one of them. They do a great job, but they don’t necessarily have the services and the policies that allow them to do the job that the communities want them to do. So, many of the recommendations relative to administration of the act are geared to try and make the job of a social worker easier, more efficient and that then makes less apprehensions and makes it less difficult on families.

It’s been mentioned already, but I want to also say that the recommendations emphasize that there’s changes needed in the kinds of measures that we use to deliver social services, and particularly in light of child apprehensions. We tend to, at the moment, work against families, and the underlying principle has to be to work with families, not against them. So the recommendations talk about advocacy, they talk about collaborative processes and it’s a different way of thinking. There’s not a lot of basic structural change required, but it’s a different way of thinking and instead of being adversarial -- I think that word was mentioned already -- if we don’t start from an adversarial position, we start from a collaborative position. If we can do that, it’s going to solve the problem before it gets to be a bigger problem or before it gets to court.

We certainly heard a great deal about child and family services committees, mostly that people didn’t know that they had the opportunity to establish them. When we mentioned them, I would say, to a community, they believed that that was the right way to go. In my mind, establishing those committees is going to be key to putting into place the recommendations that we have made in the

report. I firmly believe that we need to give power to the communities, to the people in the communities. They know best what works for their people in the community and for their community as a whole. At the moment we’re not doing that. We say that we’re listening to them, but I don’t believe we really are. If we can give that sort of power and interaction with people and families to members of a community, I think it’s certainly going to improve, it’s going to reduce the number of child apprehensions, I believe that absolutely, and it will solve problems before they become a problem, which, again, is going to reduce apprehensions. The other thing that these committees can do is they can require, they can advocate, they can get the supports that are so necessary in the community to help families.

In conclusion, I would like to say that it could be said that this report was a labour of love on behalf of the committee members. We were all extremely, I would think, I shouldn’t speak for my other committee members, but I believe that we certainly were committed to this work and we felt it was very important. I think we also believe that it was well worth the effort and that the product that resulted was certainly a good one.

I have heard from committee members today and Mr. Menicoche, I appreciate his comments, but I really look forward to hearing from other Members of the House on their comments, from other Members outside of the committee, their view of this report and its recommendations. There’s a number of recommendations that were made not just to the Department of Health and Social Services but a number of other government departments and we spent a lot of time discussing whether or not we should put those in and felt very strongly that the recommendations affected other departments but it, therefore, needed to be included because they have an impact on child and family services.

It is a great report. I encourage other Members to give comments, I encourage the public to give us comments on this report. I think we would like to hear whatever comments are out there, good, better or indifferent. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you Ms. Bisaro. Next on my list is Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. General comments. Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to acknowledge the hard work of the members of the Standing Committee on Social Programs and congratulate them on the undertaking of this very important task.

The review of the Child and Family Services Act was timely and has offered an opportunity for the Department of Health and Social Services to hear feedback from the most important source of information: the families and communities directly affected by the legislation.

The department will undertake a detailed review of the report and recommendations and develop a comprehensive response. Many recommendations will require the input and engagement of other departments and I will work closely with my colleagues to ensure a coordinated response across the department.

I have also instructed my deputy minister to work with other departments affected by these recommendations to develop interdepartmental responses as some recommendations are cross-government. I will commit to providing an overall response within 120 days.

From a preliminary review, some of the recommendations will require an investment. Many recommendations were policy related and can be addressed without going back to alter the act. A few

recommendations will require a legal review. Some recommendations will commit future governments.

I can say that the department is very excited by the prospect of improving services for children and families and is prepared to make the most of this opportunity.

I’d like to conclude by thanking all of the numerous people who shared their stories and experiences and were involved with this review. Although there is much work ahead of us, the momentum is in place to make significant and valuable changes to the way we deliver child and family services across the Territory.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. General comments. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’ve got a few comments I’d like to make on the report. First off I’d like to thank yourself, Mr. Abernethy, and Mr. Beaulieu and the rest of the Social Programs committee for embarking on this ambitious piece of work. It took you over a year and I know many mornings you’d be here and on weekends as well, and I know the committee put a lot of time and effort and understanding into the issues surrounding the review of the Child and Family Services Act. It’s because of that work and commitment that I think we have a report before us that is one that speaks to a variety of issues.

The big one for me, and I’ve heard this from constituents, is that gap. We have to try to address the gap for youth between the ages of 16 and 19. I think that’s a big part of it. They’re too old for foster care, too young to receive income support. That’s a gap I think we need to address. Hopefully this leads us down that road.

I was listening to some of my colleagues speak earlier. The impact, the sheer volume and impact that alcohol, drugs and the abuse of those substances have on our communities, on our families, is devastating. I think we really need to, as a government, get to the root cause of family breakup and what’s causing things to go astray. I know we’re working towards that. We’re spending a lot of money in that area. The social indicators aren’t getting any better and I think we need to do a rethink on how we’re approaching things, especially on the prevention side.

I again appreciate all the time and effort that’s gone into the report. Hopefully we can find a way forward.

The other thing too, while I’ve got the floor, that I wanted to mention, was when families break up and the impact that has, it’s a very tumultuous time in a family’s life when the families do break up, the impact on the children who are involved in that breakup have. I’ve always been a big supporter of equal shared parenting in a way that both parents can fit into the lives of children. That’s something

that I fully support too. The more we can get in and mediate circumstances like that, the better as well. Keep family issues and family law out of the court system as much as possible. That’s a good thing. We would be doing families a valuable service if we could do that; also benefitting the children that are involved in those family breakups as well.

With that, I do hope this is a tool that can be used effectively as we move forward. Once again, thank you and thanks to the Social Programs committee and to the Minister and her staff, and everybody else who was involved in the foundation of getting this report before us today.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. General comments. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to report progress.

---Carried

I will now rise and report progress.

Can I have the report of Committee of the Whole, please, Mr. Abernethy?