This is page numbers 4657 - 4718 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was project.

Topics

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously something happened to spook the lenders. I’d like to know if the Minister knows exactly what that was. We had the Minister come before us requesting that the government approve and the Members approve $15 million in a supplementary appropriation to get that money flowing from the lenders. That wasn’t the case. Obviously we are here this week looking at a supplementary appropriation for the full amount. I’d like to ask the Minister why that was and what happened to the lenders in between those two dates that they decided that us in good faith approving $15 million wasn’t enough.

Michael McLeod

Michael McLeod Deh Cho

I’m not sure what spooked the lenders off, as the Member put it. The lenders had indicated that there was a milestone that they wanted to see met, which was January 29th , to have all the redesign in place and approved

by their independent engineer. We feel we met that deadline. We had three different engineering firms approve our design. We formally sent it to the lenders and they responded by saying that it wasn’t something that they were going to approve and were going to issue a notice of default. We had some discussions in February that there was going to be a notice. It did not indicate that the funding or the taps were turned off, as the Member has put it. We were formally told March 1st that we would not

be able to draw down. In fact, I don’t believe it was even a request for a drawdown that was rejected up to that point.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Beaulieu.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. Today I talked about unofficial home care services provided by adult children and grandchildren who live with elders. In many of the small communities it’s quite common for elders to have their adult children and grandchildren living with them. The government needs to recognize and acknowledge and do all it can to support this important community situation.

I have questions for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. Will the Minister agree to review the current seniors fuel subsidy program and policy so that it properly takes into account the services provided by live-in family caregivers?

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. The honourable Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Lafferty.

Jackson Lafferty

Jackson Lafferty Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. This particular area has seen some changes over time. We’ve increased the income threshold as well, household income, by $10,000. At the same time, through the transition period we’ve made some changes along the way with other programs as well. So we are receptive to making changes to our programming, overall programs that we have that are deliverable to the communities. This seniors home fuel subsidy is a very attractive subsidy program for seniors in the small communities especially. I would state in the House that this is an area we continue to look at with individuals who are looking after their grandma or grandparents or parents. We are fully aware of it, but as it stands, it’s based on the household income. We are looking further into it on how we can have some less impact on the seniors themselves.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

I thank the Minister for that response. Without changing the income requirements for the program, will the Minister direct his staff to revise the policy so that these adult children and grandchildren who live with elders can have all or some of their income exempt depending on how the department chooses to look at it? Some or all of their income exempt in lieu of the important elders’ care that these children are providing.

Jackson Lafferty

Jackson Lafferty Monfwi

Those are the areas that we are currently evaluating. We need to assess who those seniors are, how many individuals are living with them, and they are based on household income.

As I stated in the House on several occasions, some of those individuals are working at the mines. Some of those individuals take advantage of the system. We have to be very careful in the evaluation system. As long as it benefits the clientele, the seniors, we’ll do what we can to meet those needs of those individuals. We are looking into this even further within my department.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Will the Minister commit to further working with the Minister responsible for Seniors with the specific mandate of looking at revising all of the seniors support programs?

Jackson Lafferty

Jackson Lafferty Monfwi

We work as a cross-cultural departmental initiative where NWT Housing Corporation uses household income. The same for the Minister responsible for Seniors through her programming. Within the ECE subsidy programs it is based on household income. Those are the areas that we continue to improve our programming. Yes, I will continue to work with my two colleagues on this particular item.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Final supplementary, Mr. Beaulieu.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In that future work will the Minister agree to look at the seniors support programs holistically with the other Ministers and do what is feasible for the seniors and for the government and essentially all the residents of the NWT?

Jackson Lafferty

Jackson Lafferty Monfwi

I was having a chat on the side with my colleague here. Definitely we are committed and I believe it was brought up some time ago that we need to look at the household income. We are committed to looking even further at expanding the role of the subsidy programs we deliver based on household income. So the Housing Corporation is also. We will look into this further.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Abernethy.

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Premier. The NWT Hydro Corporation’s strategic plan promises a feasibility analysis and design of a potential electrical grid for the Northwest Territories. The Taltson expansion does not address this or support a long-term strategy focused on the NWT grid system or creating redundancy within the NWT electrical system. You would think that this analysis and design of a grid should logically occur prior to the Taltson expansion itself. So could the Premier tell me how can this government support the expansion of Taltson if it avoids addressing this issue, which is one of the primary purposes that the NWT Hydro Corporation exists in the first place? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the NWT Hydro Strategy does set out the development of a grid over the long-term life of the Northwest Territories. This piece of our plan is based on the business case, a business model that sees revenue accruing to the partnership and to the Hydro Corporation. From there, the benefits then would flow in other areas, Mr. Speaker, that would see, for example, the GDP of the Government of the Northwest Territories remain or grow because we’re able to supply electrical power to industry at a lower rate than is being done, so now because they have to build their own electricity generation as part of their scenarios of mine development and, as well, burn diesel and also add to the climate change concerns that we have. Thank you.

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

I was wondering if the Premier could tell me what business opportunity he’s talking about. I was under the impression that the whole business case of the Taltson expansion was based on selling power to diamond mines, of which I understand that the diamond mines haven’t signed any power purchasing agreements or anything like that. So who are these business opportunities and these new mining ventures that exist? Thank you.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Mr. Speaker, one of the things we have to realize and recall, even the previous decisions made by the mines because of the economic downturn was they shut down for a number of months because of the cost of running their operations, and that takes into fact the cost of running their facilities in a remote location. Our plan would provide for power at a cheaper rate, thereby expanding mine lives, for example, or allowing a new mine to be developed, because one of the things that the shareholders of a mining operation have to take into consideration is the overall cost of doing business in the Northwest Territories.

So as we look at those pieces, this process was put in place, Deze Corporation, a partnership that we have to sign off on as the Government of the Northwest Territories in the near future if we’re really going to make this go ahead, as well as have those partnership agreements and the power purchase agreements in place with the mines. So there are a number of key things that go ahead much like, for example, the Mackenzie Gas Pipeline. There is a potential project, but the proponents have to decide if it actually goes after they’ve invested significant dollars through an environmental process to see if, in fact, it can proceed in a cost-effective manner. So the same thing applies to the Taltson. Thank you.

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

I think with something like the Taltson expansion we need to be thinking long term, we need to be thinking about the benefits to the people of the Northwest Territories, not just to the pocketbook of Deze which stands to make a lot of money from this if we go around the East Arm. There are other mining opportunities. There’s Avalon near Thor Lake, there are opportunities in Pine Point, and there’s also, hopefully someday if there aren’t already, opportunities in the North Slave Geological Province that can be accessed through alternate routes. I want to know why we’re so bent on going with this around the East Arm route through a park, a brand new federal park, when there are all these other opportunities which will create more opportunities in the long run such as an opportunity to create some grids. It seems awfully short-sighted to go around the East Arm and ignore these other routes. I was wondering if the Premier could tell me a little bit more about why we’re so set on that one route.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Mr. Speaker, the alternate routes have been looked at by the Hydro Corporation and the Power Corp because through the environmental review they were asked for additional information. That was provided. This project will not work. We will not be able to sell energy to the mines for an acceptable rate. They will not sign power purchase agreements for a cost higher than they’re able to develop it for in today’s environment. Adding approximately $100 million-plus to the project by going around the west side of the lake would put that project in a place where it is uneconomical and we have no project; there will be no expansion without a customer. The customer base is based on kilowatt hours. Those discussions are ongoing and if those agreements get signed, we have a project to move forward. If they don’t get signed, we have no project. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Your final supplementary, Mr. Abernethy.

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There is more than just the western route; there are the two across-the-lake routes, and if I remember

correctly, I think the costs on those aren’t quite as high as going all the way around the west. One might be $40 million and one might be $50 million. I don’t know for sure, but it’s quite a gap from the $100 million that the Premier is suggesting. I’m thinking that the costing that we got was from Deze. Deze wants to go around the east. How do we know that the costing we’re getting for the other routes are fair and reasonable? Would the Premier commit to actually having a little bit of an independent review done into the actual costing of alternate routes? Because the only ones we’re getting are Deze and Hydro Corporation assessments. I’d like to see what some of those costs are from an independent body as opposed to Deze. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I stated earlier, through the environmental review process additional information was requested. That information was gathered and supplied to the review board around alternate sites. We go from $70 million to as high as $200 million, depending on the different scenarios that we’ve looked at: across-the-lake, underwater cable and so on. Substantially more expensive than what’s in place today. Without a business case, without a customer at a kilowatt hour, there is no project unless this government itself decides to pay the additional cost for going alternate routes around the lake. Thank you.