So in a few months I certainly hope we have a lively debate on this program review in terms of this issue. Hopefully we’ll formulate a new policy in terms of the harvesters and the land and area that we’re talking about that we’d see it before the end of the life of this government. If this has been an issue in the past, I can only imagine the departments have been working quite creatively to put this compensation to test in terms of working with the harvesters on areas that have been damaged by forest fires. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the deputy indicated, as we conclude the reviews the intent is to take it through the process to committee and when there is agreed to recommendations, then we’ll look at the policies being adjusted to reflect whatever changes are finally agreed to. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Once again, committee, page 13-22,

Environment

and Natural Resources, activity summary, forest management, grants and contributions, grants, total grants, $100,000. Agreed?

Contributions, total contributions, $30,000.

Total grants and contributions, $130,000. Agreed?

Thank you, committee. Page 13-23, Environment and Natural Resources, information item, forest management, active positions. Agreed? Mr. Yakeleya.

I want to state again the wishes of the elders from Colville Lake on the caribou. I heard the Minister talk about the collars on the caribou. It disturbs them quite considerably. How do we monitor our wildlife?

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. That’s coming up very shortly on the next page, I believe. So let’s just conclude this page 13-23, Environment and Natural Resources, information item, forest management, active positions. Agreed?

Thank you, committee. We’re on page 13-25, and I’ll start with Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The concerns again brought to me by the elders of the community of Colville Lake, they’ve stated to me many times they’re concerned about wildlife technicians, biologists using the collars to monitor the movements of caribou, especially the ones that we use in the Sahtu, Bluenose-East and Bluenose-West, and that the feeling that their method of traditional knowledge is not taken very seriously as the aircraft and collars are used on caribou to give credence and evidence to the scientific papers on caribou. There is some value to it. Again, it rubs against the respect for the animals and by having collars on these animals they feel that it’s going against the laws of animals in the culture of the Colville Lake people. So I want to state for the record that as much as the department is telling us the value of caribou and the value of putting collars on animals, there are some elders there that are very saddened that we’re using this technique and that they should be using traditional knowledge and best practice in terms of monitoring. I’m not too sure if that will ever be discontinued as there are a lot of biologists and technicians that swear to God that collars are probably the best thing for monitoring or managing animals. I’m just stating very clearly that people in Colville Lake are not too happy and they don’t agree with it. They’ve asked me, again, to bring it to the government’s attention and they can have some more discussions if they want. However, I want to state that for the record.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Member for making this clear on the record. We are very sensitive to the concern about how we work with the animals, how we do it. I point out that traditional knowledge and western science in this case I believe have to be compatible and we want the best all-around knowledge that we can get. We’ll make note of the fact that the Member has raised concerns on behalf of his constituents. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Minister. Anything further, Mr. Yakeleya? I will go next on my list to Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In regards to the Wildlife Act, I know that the caribou issue has been very controversial, in some cases it has had an impact on harvesters, especially Aboriginal harvesters in regards to how they have either been dealt with through, I wouldn’t say the courts, but also in regards to being written up and taking their guns away and whatnot, especially with the Porcupine caribou and everybody was pretty clear that the Aboriginal community was saying that there was more caribou out there than what they counted and yet people were prosecuted and people were tarred. But yet now with the numbers that the last count clearly illustrates what the people were telling you in regards to the caribou count wasn’t exactly accurate and we were underestimating those numbers because you haven’t done a count. I think the last time we did a count was 2001, which is almost 10 years ago. I think because of that, people now have criminal records, because of how this issue was managed. I would just like to ask the Minister, exactly what are we going to do to remedy the situation. Do we have those individuals that basically have been written up, have their charges waived, or in some cases totally wiped off the record? Individuals now have a criminal record and in some cases, that basically because of that, they have been written up and it is on the record. I would just like to know, are we looking at the possibility of having a clean slate when it comes to people that were charged improperly knowing that the numbers they were estimating weren’t accurate. If anything, the numbers... Again, this was a volunteer activity that was being carried out as far as to shooting bulls and whatnot, but yet people have been prosecuted, people have records in relation to the regulations, so I am just wondering what are we going to do to remedy that situation.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not aware of any specific charges that were laid on the Northwest Territories side. I know that if there were issues they tended to be on the Yukon side of the border. For us, basically, it is a good news story that there was in fact, that the numbers weren’t as bad as predicted, the numbers that the Northwest Territories subscribed to, in terms of estimates, were considerably higher than those that were contemplated and put forward by the Yukon government. Our numbers were much more consistent with the Porcupine Caribou Management Board, but there are no plans at this point to go back. Decisions were made on the best information

of the day and the rules were enforced on that basis. Thank you.

Again, if you are charging somebody on the basis of conservation and you find out that the issue wasn’t really conservation and you have charged somebody and you find out that the issue of conservation wasn’t the factor, the factor was that it was an undercount by way of the lack of or amount of time it took to count the species that is in question, in regards to using conservation as the reason to charge people. Now you find out that the herd is way over or a lot healthier than you basically used the situation of going out there and saying we are down to two caribou. You can’t shoot one because if you do that there is only one left over and we have a healthy herd in regards to the Porcupine caribou herd, but yet people have been charged for a simple thing as going hunting and shooting a cow caribou, because it was a voluntary order in order to shoot bulls. Any Aboriginal person in their right mind will tell you, you do not shoot bulls in the fall time when they are rutting and yet that is when you expect people to be shooting bulls. Traditionally you don’t shoot bulls when they are rutting, traditionally you shoot the cows, you leave the bulls so that they basically can rut and you can’t eat the meat when they are rutting anyhow. Things like that that traditional knowledge would have brought you, which people where telling you that in the first place, but again it just does not meet reason or mind. So, I will ask again, I know that the Minister said sorry because the charges were laid, the charges were laid with bad information and people are now carrying criminal records or have been charged and basically have a record on file that is going to affect them for the rest of their lives.

While I appreciate the Member’s concern, with the benefit of hindsight we know now that the numbers were not as low as where contemplated at the time that these actions were taken, so I don’t see a way to look back and rewrite history. I take the Member’s concern. I guess the only other offer I could make to the Member is if he has specific instances that he wants to share, not in this forum, but if he wants to, we can have a discussion further about any individuals where there may be extenuating circumstances. But as a general rule and practice, I mean, that was then, this is now, now that we have the right information, up-to-date information, things will be adjusted accordingly. But we were operating under precautionary principles at the time and took the steps that were deemed appropriate and necessary by all the parties. Thank you.