Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m absolutely happy to share that report on the pilings. Yes, we know that there are some other challenges with the facility for it to continue as a health centre, which is why the health centre is still in the planning process. We are, I believe, currently doing the planning study and it will take several more months to complete, but I believe that’s happening in this fiscal year. So we’ll be able to come forward with more information on that as that planning study moves towards completion.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Continuing on with general comments, I have Ms. Bisaro.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just have a few general comments and I feel the need to pretty much repeat the comments that I made yesterday when we were considering the Housing Corporation’s budget. It follows up on my statement and my questions to the Minister earlier today, and that’s my concern for seniors’ housing.

The Minister has advised that yes they are, they recognize that the numbers of seniors are going to increase, that they are using an Aging in Place Strategy, but he has yet to recognize, in my view, that we have seniors right now who need supported living and there is no space for them. We’re building facilities, I appreciate that, but we don’t have space right now and even with the facilities, once they’re completed, we will still have, particularly in Yellowknife, no space for seniors who need supported living and/or who need extended care.

The issue of the expansion and the renovation project at Avens is a really big issue for me. I appreciate that the department is working on it, but again, I think that there must be something more

that the department can do to get this project moving forward.

Again, I appreciate that they’re waiting for this working group, but when I look at the projects that are in this budget, there are several projects which are going to be completed in ’15-16 and I think one or two that might be completed in ’16-17, but there is nothing in this budget which is a new project, whether it’s for seniors or otherwise. There are no projects which are going to be started in either ’15-16 or, I think, in ’16-17. We’re not starting any new major projects. There’s some small stuff but there is nothing new, and it tells me that the department hasn’t yet recognized or they can’t get Cabinet to recognize that infrastructure must be started not five years from now but now in order to accommodate the numbers of seniors that we’re going to have who are going to be needing supported living and particularly extended care. I don’t know quite how to get the message through. Maybe it is there and maybe it’s just that the government doesn’t support the funding for these capital projects, but I would certainly hope that in the next capital budget, ’16-17, we’re going to see at least one new building construction project that will facilitate accommodation of seniors. At the moment, I don’t see that there’s anything there and it doesn’t sound as though there’s going to be anything there, from what I’m hearing from the Minister.

To the issue of aging in place, absolutely I want to age in place, but I also recognize that there comes a time when I cannot, and the Minister knows that full well, because he has family members who are currently in a situation that is very close to that. Somehow we have to assist, particularly in Yellowknife. We have an organization in the Avens Society who is willing to build 60 beds for various purposes, but they’re willing to build 60 beds and to accommodate seniors in varying places across the continuum of care. We know that a NGO organization such as Avens can build a facility cheaper than the government can. That’s been proven with the Dementia Facility, and we know that they are willing to take that risk and they are willing to find the financing. They simply need a guarantee from the government.

When I asked the question earlier, the Minister said that there’s presumably, if the building is built then it would be funded by GNWT to the tune of some $3.5 million or something. I can’t quite remember the number. That’s not the kind of thing that Avens is going to be able to take to the bank and get a mortgage. If I went to my banker and said, well, you know, um, they said that there’s going to be maybe money to help me build my house, but I’m not really sure, there’s absolutely no way I’m going to get any kind of a mortgage based on that kind of a vague promise. If we’ve got an organization that’s willing to take on a mortgage, that’s willing to build us a

60-bed facility, I’m struggling to understand why we are not bending over backwards to find a way to accommodate them. I know that things are not firm yet, but it would seem to me that we know we need the beds, we know the spaces are required, we know we don’t have current spaces, and yet I just don’t hear the words coming out of the Minister’s or the government’s mouth that says yes, we’re going to get on that and we’re going to get on that not today but yesterday because we know that it’s an urgent need.

That’s my biggest concern with this budget. The projects that we’re currently finishing and we’re sort of in the middle of are great projects. They’re definitely required. We need to be upgrading our health centres, replacing our health centres and providing for seniors facilities which are coming through the Housing Corporation, but we need to accept the urgency of the need for housing for seniors.

I have to comment on the total amount of this budget. It says, I think it’s $84 million. Yes, $84 million, almost $84.5 million. But of that $84 million, a huge amount, I think almost half is identified for Stanton Hospital. The Stanton Hospital project, again, is a very needed project, but we’re not going to start construction on that until I think it’s 2018-19. It’s well down the road.

Really, if you look at it, we’re talking about a department which is 25 percent or more of our operations budget and we’re spending $48 million or so in capital expenditures. Like the difficulty that I had with Education and their budget, this is better, but it’s not a heck of a lot better, and we need to start putting a bigger priority on the departments that deal with our people, Education, Health, and Housing. Now, Housing, I’m reasonably pleased with the focus we’ve put on housing because we’ve put some extra money in there over the last couple of years, but I have the same concerns with the capital dollars we’re putting in Health and Social Services that I did with Education. That’s it.

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are committed to ensuring that our seniors have the beds and the supports that they need in the Northwest Territories. I hear the Member saying that we’re not doing anything, and obviously, she knows I disagree. Today the Housing Corporation has in their budget money to move forward on five independent living homes in the Northwest Territories. That’s new projects and new things that are being done by the Government of the Northwest Territories. We also know that every public housing unit is available to seniors if they qualify and if they wish to use them. We are building 18 new beds, beds that aren’t available today. They do not exist today. Eighteen new beds

in Norman Wells that are going to support the Northwest Territories. We have pretty much finished construction of nine new beds, beds that don’t exist today, in Behchoko, which are going to help reduce the demands everywhere in the Northwest Territories because we have one Territorial Admissions Committee. These beds are going to help. Is it enough? Not yet. We know that more is necessary and we’re going to continue to move forward to find ways.

I want the facility at Avens. I want those additional beds. I think everybody does. We recognize that there is significant value to the Northwest Territories in having these beds. We do have a capital process. Avens, on many occasions, has come to us asking us to explore many, many different options, and the option of guaranteeing beds and supporting them in getting a bank loan is just one of the options that they have presented. It isn’t the only option they have presented. I could count probably four different alternatives that they wish us to explore. We’ve asked them to help us break it down into one. Let’s break it down into the one that will give us the best results and work together to find a way to get this facility built. We are exploring those options with the steering committee that I mentioned earlier today. We have already kicked off the process in cooperation with the steering committee to do the work necessary to get it into the capital plan, and as the Member knows, getting projects into the capital plan, we have to answer specific questions. Is the facility going to help us with the protection of people? Is it going to help us with the protection with assets? Is it going help with the protection of the environment? There are a number of things that we have to do to build a case for including it into the capital plan. We’re working with Avens to help them help us develop a plan that will help us get it into the capital plan.

The first step, obviously, is a planning study, which is basically the technical assessment of the current facility. We need to make sure that all that’s complete, all the information is there to allow us to have something to bring forward to this House for consideration. I want this facility as much as everybody else. I believe this facility adds significant value to the Northwest Territories, but there are steps we have to take, and for the Member to say why don’t we just guarantee these beds, that is only one of at least four options that have been presented. We need to clarify which one they wish to pursue. We are doing that work and we will continue to do that work because we know the importance of increasing the number of beds in the Northwest Territories to meet our current and long-term needs.

I would like the deputy minister, Ms. DeLancey, just to talk a little bit about some of the analysis that’s gone on with respect to beds. We have a bit of time

here in order to get this done and get it done right. If we can go to Ms. DeLancey for just a few comments.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Ms. DeLancey.

Thank you, Ms. DeLancey. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you. I’m not saying that it’s all done, because we know that we need to continue to move forward to ensure that the beds meet our future and long-term needs.

I can say that over the last eight years we have invested around $86 million in developing and expanding long-term care facilities in the Northwest Territories, so we continue to plug at this, we continue to address this. Like I said, I, as much as anybody, want to see that new facility and the upgrades of the existing Avens facility done. I would like to see those 55 beds available in Yellowknife.

The next topic that the Member discussed was Stanton and the $40 million. I’m going to go to Mr. Heath to talk a little about the $40 million and how it’s intended to be utilized. I just want to say that Stanton is a $300 million to $350 million project. It is the largest capital project ever undertaken by the Government of the Northwest Territories. It is a

significant asset to Yellowknife, to the Northwest Territories, and I don’t think that can be taken away from the entire process that we are discussing here today. We are looking at one year of a multi-year project, but it is a $350 million build in the Northwest Territories, the largest capital project that we have even undertaken. I think it’s necessary, I think it’s important. It is a facility in dire need of this upgrade. So, $40 million is a portion of the project, it’s not the whole project.

If we could go to Mr. Heath, please.

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Mr. Heath.

Thank you, Mr. Heath. Continuing on with general comments, I have Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to the House to the Minister and staff here for this review of Health and Social Services.

The first thing I am interested in is what the status is of our telehealth and associated technologies, radiology, perhaps there is a pharmaceutical aspect to it and so on, across our 32 communities with respect to helping with both emergencies and managing medical travel. I know the Minister is aware that that is a steep source of the demand on our resources and much of that is unnecessary and there is potential for dealing with that. I think there is a good strategy in place, but we have been well aware of that since early in the 16th Assembly. It

just seems to be very, very slow unfolding. Maybe an update on that.

I have to follow up on my colleague Ms. Bisaro’s comments on the Aven Campus. I know the Minister is aware it is full. The waiting lists are long and getting longer. Rapidly there is an urgent need, now. Hopefully the Minister has heard that.

We also need work, either through partnerships with private enterprise or incentives perhaps, to foster the provision of facilities for seniors that have some financial independence and yet high care level needs. High needs for high level care with no current facilities to meet those needs. I know a lot of families are struggling with that.

I have heard the Minister’s response to Ms. Bisaro, and Members have raised this issue for years without any concrete commitments, and now the need is critical. The Avens, obviously, has a proven track record, high standards and performance. They achieved a very high level in their move to accreditation most recently. They are an organization that accomplishes what it sets out to do. It’s a can-do organization that attracts support and investment from the community, businesses and individuals, and I don’t think there is any argument they are very efficient at providing services and putting infrastructure in place compared to other projects the government has taken on.

We continually hear from this Minister, “We do have a capital process.” Not just this Minister, every Minister. I am looking; it’s not there. We’ve been at this for years. I am looking at the capital plan; it’s not there. The Minister says Avens has presented many options and then specified four options. Well, why would they have presented all those options, Mr. Chair? They are presenting all those options because every one fails. The government has failed to move until we are now critical. What can we say about this? I don’t know how they keep their sanity and keep going, but these seniors are tough people.

It needs to get into the capital plan “just now.” Again, I am looking at the plan. But indeed, does Avens need capital dollars? I would say Avens now recognizes that it’s going to be way too late if we go through the capital planning process. I would say the Minister must agree to that, given the current need and the rising need. Creatively, I would say, and through a lot of work with the community and their own resources, they are now saying we don’t need capital dollars, please keep us out of this capital process, it’s failed us at every turn we’ve attempted, keep us out of it. We need a bankable commitment that the department will support residents that use the campus. The bottom line is, they are poised, they are moving, and I know the Minister has worked to help them do that. I recognize that and I thank the Minister for that. But let’s complete the equation and get this happening.

Stanton Hospital, I still have serious concerns and reservations about the P3 aspects of Stanton Hospital. I know that the government is aware that similar efforts in Canada and other countries, Britain in particular, have in fact cost the residents hundreds of millions of dollars more than it would have under a public project approach, and along with that are some of the social aspects such as privatization of jobs and so on and the potential race to the bottom. I know the government is committed to this track. We’ll see what comes in. But I asked the government to take a very close look and particularly given, again, the intentions of government to seek a greater borrowing limit and

consider whether or not we could avoid that risk and take it on ourselves.

I am very happy to see some of the facilities that we are getting in place. The Minister mentioned the elders facilities in Norman Wells and Behchoko. Those are great to see and those are big projects. I think we have done some good work in standardizing the formats of those so that we can be efficient with those and so on, albeit the costs are pretty extreme on a per bed basis, especially compared to the Avens facility.

The health centres, I watch methodically the discussion between Fort Providence and Fort Res. Fort Res kindly stepped aside and we went ahead with Fort Providence. We are into completion and now we are moving on with the Fort Res one. Those are great to see and I know that the Minister is aware that we need to keep going with that, not just in Yellowknife. I am going to leave it at that and I’m going to speak to some specifics as we go through detail. Some of that I know is repeat, but it bears repeating. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. With respect to telehealth and a lot of the other eHealth or e-social services systems that we’re working on, there are a number of things in place and we continue to move forward with a number of initiatives. In this budget you’ll see some money for CFSIS, which is the upgrade of the Child and Family Services Information System which, no doubt the Member knows and we all know, has to be done. It is a critical piece of technical infrastructure that we need to get up and running in a useable way. Not just there but it has to be useable and functional for our staff. It is a couple-year project as we move forward, but it’s essential.

We do have telehealth in all of our community health centres and we are using them. We do know that we are using them for things like TeleSpeech and a number of things, doctor/patient interactions. I have travelled throughout the Northwest Territories, as I said, since I have become the Minister of Health and Social Services, and I have visited a large number of health centres. Some of them are using it more effectively than others are, and some are using it in more creative ways. We need to continue to push all of our health authorities to find and utilize it as much as possible because it continues to be a great tool. But it’s not the only thing that we’re using. We have invested, and we continue to invest, in things like DI/PACs, and we have been able to acquire a whole lot of money from organizations like Infoway.

We are continuing to move forward with EMR. It’s in Yellowknife Health and Social Services, Hay River Health and Social Services, Fort Smith Health and Social Services. We’re in the process of trying to

get it into Stanton right now. There have been a few little hiccups as we are rolling that out but we will work through those. We will make it happen. We are going to get it into all the health centres in the next, I believe, two to three fiscal years is our plan. Tlicho would be the last one on our list to get done, but we continue to move forward. EMR is a huge tool for all of us in the health care system.

We have a number of other tools that we’re using throughout the Northwest Territories, so we continue to move forward. These are actually going to be enhanced once we get the fibre optic line down the valley. We’ll have higher speeds, higher times. It’s going to improve our telehealth response in the valley and in the communities that are receiving services along that line. So there’s a lot of good news on that front. But based on my journeys, clearly we have to work a little harder with the authorities to get them to use telehealth to help us reduce things like medical travel. That is something that the department is keenly aware of. This is one of those things that we believe will be easier once we move to a single authority so that we can have the interaction without some of the barriers that we’ve created for our own design.

I hear the Member about Avens. There is no question that I am supportive of this project. I have been Minister of Health and Social Services for one year. I have been an MLA for seven years. In the last Assembly, Avens was very keen to get the Dementia Facility built, and we all worked together to find a way to do that. I did not hear anything about this new facility. The Member says it has been years and years, but I just don’t see that exactly as the Member does. I didn’t have anybody approach me in any capacity as Public Works and Services or Health and Social Services until I actually became the Minister of Health and Social Services a year ago. It’s the first time somebody approached me and said, we need to make this facility. I understand that they did go to Members for that, but since I’ve been the Minister I’ve been working hard with Avens to find a way to make this happen, and we’re going to find a way to make this happen.

The Member says, what about having them be able to charge higher rates? This is one of the options that they approached us with and said, how about if we can charge higher rates for individuals in our facility? The problem is, if we provide them a loan guarantee or if we fund this project, our policies and procedures have to be utilized, which limits the amount that an individual can pay. We actually have a set criterion what people will pay in our facilities. We are actually exploring some policy options around that to see if we can amend that based on requests from Avens. So we are exploring all of these things that the Member is talking about. We are wanting badly to find a way to work with Avens to make this facility a reality, but there are

some limitations. We need them to help us come with a final, solid ask of what path they want to take, and we’re open to whatever they want. At this point we will find a way. Some ways will take longer than others, but we are open to any options that they want to explore.

We have invested in them. We have given $25,000 so that they can have some consultants work on this project with us and with them. So, we’re involved. We are working with them closely, and we are going to continue to work with them, and we will find a way because we recognize the importance of this facility and we are committed to helping them do it.

With respect to Stanton, as a Regular Member in the 16th Assembly I sat with my colleagues, many of

them still sitting on that side of the House, and we strongly recommended that the GNWT develop a P3 policy, so they did. The GNWT developed a P3 policy in the last government. The GNWT’s P3 policy requires that all projects over $50 million be reviewed for delivery as a public/private partnership. As a result, the detailed feasibility analysis and a business case was completed which clearly showed that delivering Stanton under P3 would be the most cost-effective project delivery method following our P3 policy that is in place. Delivering Stanton as a P3 is anticipated to deliver significant value for money to the Northwest Territories. Canada is a mature P3 market with a robust P3 model that has been proven to safeguard the public interest in project delivery.

I am going to go to Mr. Miltenberger, who is the lead for this project, but before I do that, I would like to just be very clear – and hopefully everybody is going to get this – we are not privatizing health care in the Northwest Territories and there is no expectation or intention on our behalf to privatize health care in the Northwest Territories. We will not do it. It’s not our plan and it’s not something we are interested in doing. We will not privatize the delivery of health services in the Northwest Territories.

When it comes to P3 projects, I would like to go to Minister Miltenberger, the Minister of Finance, who is leading this Stanton Renewal Project.

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Before we do so, I would like to draw everyone’s attention here in the House. Joining us in the gallery here for this afternoon’s proceeding is our Conflict of Interest Commissioner, Mr. David Jones.

---Applause

Welcome to the Assembly, Mr. Jones. Continuing on with our response to the questions, we will go to Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The business case for Stanton as a P3 project was done last March and shared with the

committee last March. There is a process underway. There has been no contractor picked or signed yet. A lot of final decisions have yet to be made in terms of what will exactly be included in the P3 project, what kind of hard services will be potentially part of that project. So, there is still a process underway.

I don’t have much more to add to what the Minister has already stated other than that, as he has pointed out, this P3 process is very prevalent now across the country. The federal government has a multi-billion dollar P3 project office. This P3 approach has been used successfully now all over the country. The Mackenzie Valley fibre link is in fact going to be a P3 project as well. So, this is a good way to proceed. We have done the groundwork and can have discussion with the committee about any specific concerns that they may have as long as it doesn’t jeopardize the timelines of the project. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you. The Health and Social Services has obviously been participating in the working group that’s moving forward with this Stanton renewal, and our objective is to make sure that that building meets our clinical and functional needs and we continue to make sure that all the proponents, including Public Works and Services and Finance, are aware of our technical needs because we need to make sure that that building meets our functional needs today, tomorrow and into the future.

I just want to go back to Avens for a second because when I mentioned that the first time anybody ever approached me was a year ago, I saw the Member laugh a little bit. Our records show that the first time we were ever contacted by Avens about Avens expansion was June 2013, and since that time, that first discussion in June 2013, they have come to us with three or four alternate options. That obviously is something we are working with them on, is finding the alternate options of finding the one that suits. They never approached me and nobody talked to me until October 2013, when I became…

---Interjection

Nobody approached me as an MLA, Bob.

---Interjection

I am. Nobody approached me and said, we want to build Avens. The first I became aware of it is when I was approached by Avens and they said, we want to build and extend Avens, and that is something that I am committed to working towards. They first approached the department. Their first discussion with Avens was October…no, June 2013. So it’s

great that they were talking about it for years. It might have been great if maybe they had started to engage with the department sooner.

In the meantime, Bob, I mean MLA for Weledeh, we are committed to working with… We are working closely with them. I’ve had many, many meetings with the president. I’ve had many, many meetings with the staff. I’ve directed the staff to make progress and to find a way to make this a reality in time. We have to work with the processes we have available to us, and I am exploring, we are exploring all opportunities.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. I do sense a lot of passion in the room here today, but I would really caution all Members to actually direct your questions and responses through the Chair so we can record this accordingly. With that, I will go to Ms. Bisaro.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move we report progress.

---Carried

I would like to thank Minister Abernethy today and Mr. Heath and Ms. DeLancey. Thank you for joining us today. If I could get the Sergeant-at-Arms to please escort our witnesses out of the Chamber. With that, I will rise and report progress.