Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Does committee agree?

Okay. Committee, we’ll resume after a short break.

---SHORT RECESS

Welcome back, committee. I’d like to call Committee of the Whole to order. With that, we’ll continue, as indicated by Ms. Bisaro, with Tabled Document 115-17(5), Capital Estimates 2015-2016. We are going to start our proceedings with Health and Social Services on page 31. With that, we’ll turn it over to the Minister of Health and Social Services and ask if he has any witnesses. Thank you.

I do, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. Sergeant-at-Arms, if you could please escort the witnesses into the House. Thank you.

Minister Abernethy, if you could introduce your witnesses to the House, please.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. With me today on my right is Perry Heath, director of infrastructure planning; and Debbie DeLancey, our deputy minister.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. I will welcome our guests back in the Chamber today. With that, our convention was to forego any opening comments and go directly to general comments. I will call general comments on Health and Social Services. General comments. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’m pleased to have the department before us today. They have quite a huge infrastructure budget. I want to make my comments specifically to the small communities I represent in the Sahtu.

I’m looking forward to the day when the infrastructure in the small community of Colville Lake will be improved, the renovations of the health centre. I know it took me awhile, with the help of the previous Health Minister, to have running washrooms in the facility in that community in the health centre. I had several Ministers in there before. They came, they saw and they left. They didn’t quite get the essence of a good health care facility such as having running water, toilets and sinks. There was only a honey bucket in the corner. It has taken eight years to have this facility come to that stage.

I was looking at the Colville Lake Health Centre as an example as to the type of infrastructure assets we have in the small communities. I know that I spoke to the people who work in Colville Lake as I made my visit there, and they are quite concerned because the materials and supplies are stuffed everywhere. There is no real proper storage for that facility. I am looking under the infrastructure as to something that could happen in the future that this Minister would bring something forward to the House or have some plans to start looking in that area. It would mean a lot. This community does not have a full-time nurse in residence in that community. So I am hoping to see some improvements in the area of the health care in Colville Lake.

I do want to thank the Minister for some of the improvements that we have seen in Fort Good Hope in the improvement of the health centre

residence. We still do thank the department and staff for making those provisions. I was quite concerned as to the low water and the barge not getting there; however, I have been advised that that wasn’t an issue and the work was already done and the supplies were already in Fort Good Hope, so I do want to thank you for that.

I am looking forward to the Health department here cutting the ribbon in Norman Wells for the new health centre and the long-term care facility. It’s a good fight, a worthwhile fight to get that one on the books and get to the beginning of the construction. I understand the material will be hauled over the winter road to start the construction next summer with the contractors. At the same time, I am very happy to get a briefing from your colleague, the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, on the training of the personnel, workers and essential staff people for that facility. Things seem to be moving slowly. Sometimes they want them at lightning speed, but sometimes it doesn’t happen. I am quite happy that these things are moving in that community.

I do want to relate some concerns. I have talked to the Minister already and am slowly getting my research material together and I do want to talk about the Tulita health centre. It is really busting at the seams. We are getting additional staff, well-deserved staff that is in the community because of the programs that are needed and programs that the department has responded to by adding extra staff to fulfill the needs of the people. The additional staff has now moved into some of the rooms that were used for medical purposes because we do not have enough space in there and it’s getting quite crowded. Especially if the eye doctor or the dentist makes their visits to the community, it gets really busy and it gets overcrowded, along with the regular health care clinic programs that are going on. I just want the Minister to know that I am looking forward to and am going to strongly support any type of movement beyond a peer review of the Tulita health care centre and actually see some construction or something on the books that would say they are actually going to start building a new health centre. That would sure help the community and help the nurses there. God bless their souls for working under these types of conditions in our small communities.

The storage facility in Tulita, it is unbelievable that we have gone this far, this long without having proper storage. There isn’t a floor on the storage building; it’s just gravel. They just put up the building and they didn’t even build a floor for it, it’s just mud, and there is some equipment and materials that are right there. There is not even a light; it’s not even heated.

I took it upon myself, when I was in Tulita, to visit the health facilities and see the conditions the

nurses are working in, and they were quite surprised. I was really surprised when I got the tour and asked questions. I talked to the Minister already about this; the Minister is well aware. I am thankful the Minister is listening to me and I hope he can do something with that. The priority of my visit became shocking to me when I saw the residences we have our nurses in right now in Tulita. The Minister knows what I’m talking about. It’s not the ideal condition to have our nurses in in our northern communities. They work hard and they are on call like we expect, but they are also under these conditions that we want them to provide the best quality care. They are doing their best, and I’d like to see that there is some priority being given to looking at their living conditions, and that’s why I state about the new health care centre that is being planned right now. It is under peer review to be built in Tulita so that we can eliminate some of these issues for the nurse. Take the best care of them because they are under extreme working conditions and they are there for six weeks alone, depending on their contract and how things work out. I know the Minister was attentively listening to me when I spoke to him about these conditions, and hopefully he can do something very soon. Number one is on their living conditions; that’s a priority. The Minister knows what I’m talking about.

The last point I want to make on the infrastructure is in Deline. I have asked the Minister and the previous other Ministers, and finally this Minister has come back, and we want to look at palliative care beds in Deline. We have been asking for a while, and the Minister has indicated that there has been an assessment going on. The Deline people, when I saw them last week, some people were happy that we are getting somewhere. I know the federal government, the federal Minister, is high on this. She made a statement that palliative care is something that she wants to look at. The people in Deline are also very happy that we are getting a bit of movement. It’s slow but it’s moving. We want to have the palliative care and bring our people back to our communities. In the Sahtu we have big families; it’s not like in some of the other centres. The Sahtu, like any other…(inaudible)…has large families and they like to see their loved ones and be with them when they pass on to the other world.

Those are my comments, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the Member’s comments. In this capital plan you will find a number of things we’re doing. There are some upgrades to some flooring in Fort Good Hope; we are finishing the construction of Fort Providence; we are beginning the construction of a health centre in Fort Resolution; we are continuing and hopefully, well, we’re intending to

complete the construction of the Hay River hospital. There are also some upgrades in some facilities like the Inuvik Hospital, the continued construction of the Norman Wells Health Centre, which includes a new long-term care facility with 18 new beds in the Northwest Territories, which is helping us address the shortages of beds throughout the Northwest Territories as a starting point. There is medical equipment to evergreen; we are doing some work around electronic medical records; and there is also the Stanton Renewal Project in here.

There are a number of other things that are priorities for the department that we are trying to address, and small health stations like the one in Colville Lake is certainly one of them. We have a number of health stations in the Northwest Territories where we are experiencing some frustrations with the buildings themselves and the ability to provide the services that we are expected and intending to provide. We are looking at ways of moving forward on some of those projects as well.

With respect to Tulita, Tulita is a facility that the Member and I have had a number of conversations about, the Tulita health centre. I am looking forward to seeing the documentation and pictures that the Member is pulling together and sending my way. We have completed a functional plan for the Tulita health centre, we know what we need, and the next step is to do the planning study, which we intend to complete in 2015. We’re hoping, assuming that all things move forward according to plan and, according to the capital planning process, we hope that we can see the Tulita health centre in the ’16-17 budget. That would be the earliest that we could actually move on that project.

With respect to palliative care, I have had a number of conversations with the Member and we are currently doing a bit of a study and exploring options. They don’t all necessitate beds in communities but maybe programs and ways to support people to come back to the communities. Beds may be an option but it may not be the only option, so we’re continuing to explore that to see how we can support residents who wish to return to the communities for some palliative care.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Continuing on with general comments, I have Mr. Blake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a couple of questions for the Minister. First off, starting with Tsiigehtchic, it’s been quite some time since the health centre there was built. I would like to ask the Minister, when are the plans to have a new health centre built in Tsiigehtchic.

Thank you, Mr. Blake. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like just a touch of clarity. Health stations

and health centres are different things. Is the Member referring to the health station?

Health centre, health station, same difference. It’s the place where everyone goes for health care.

It’s my understanding that we actually have a health station in Tsiigehtchic as opposed to a health centre, which by definition is a slightly different thing, but I understand the Member’s point. It’s where people go to meet with the health professionals. The Tsiigehtchic health station is not currently in the five-year plan. There are a number of facilities throughout the Northwest Territories, health stations throughout the Northwest Territories where, actually, the buildings are in rough shape and it’s impacting the ability to provide services at this point. I understand that the facility in Tsiigehtchic is of such a standard and condition that we can provide the care that we need to provide in that facility. But we will certainly monitor that building, and if the Member has any additional information he would like to share, I would certainly be happy to listen.

Just so the Minister is aware, the sign at the health centre says, “Tsiigehtchic Health Centre,” but that’s just for the record.

Moving on, next, as you may know, a few years back the Joe Greenland Centre closed down in Aklavik and many of the elders really want to stay in their home communities, whether it’s Aklavik, Fort McPherson or Tsiigehtchic.

As we move forward and talk decentralization, what are the plans the Minister has to build another long-term care facility in the smaller communities such as Fort McPherson or Aklavik?

As we move forward with our…(inaudible)…communities what we’re hoping to do is actually enhance services for individuals so that they could stay in their homes. I’ve travelled throughout the Northwest Territories and talked to people in almost every community, actually in every community, including Yellowknife, and what I’ve heard is people want to be able to stay in their homes, in their communities, in their regions for as long as they possibly can. Moving forward, that is part of our priority, but we also know, in time, individuals, even if they want to stay in their own homes, may eventually have to move out of their homes, and the first logical step would be moving into independent living. In cooperation with the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, who is taking the lead, the NWT Housing Corporation is building a number of independent living units throughout the Northwest Territories, and at the current time they’re either already building or about to build five different seniors independent living units through them. Those are in Whati, Liard, Fort McPherson, Fort Good Hope as

well as I believe they’re almost done the one in Aklavik.

The nice thing about these facilities that the NWT Housing Corporation is building is they are actually including a bit of a program room area where we can come to that facility with our home care workers and other professionals to provide some independent living like supports to those individuals so that we can keep them in their communities as long as possible. We do know that, unfortunately, even with that option, people may transition to the point where they are no longer able to live independently. We believe with home care supports and other supports we’ll be able to support that independent living paradigm a little longer than we have been to date. Hopefully, we’ll be able to delay that. But we do know that some people will hit a point where they can’t stay in independent living, so then we’re looking at long-term care facilities.

In the Northwest Territories our first goal is to get long-term care facilities in every region of the Northwest Territories. We do have a number of beds in the Inuvik hospital for long-term care. We are currently building the Norman Wells facility that’s going to provide us with 18 beds, long-term care beds, beds that have never existed in the Sahtu region as that next step for the people in the Sahtu as well as people for the entire Northwest Territories. We have expanded the number of beds in the Tlicho by eight by expanding the facility in Behchoko, so those are long-term care. We do have a number of long-term care beds in Simpson to cover the Deh Cho. We have long-term care beds in Fort Smith, and we have long-term care beds in Hay River. We had a little bit of a blip there that we were concerned that we might lose 10 beds that are in Hay River, but through committee we’ve been able to get the funding to make sure that we actually maintain those 10 beds, keeping our total at 25 in Hay River.

In Yellowknife, the Government of the Northwest Territories has funded Avens to construct beds. Obviously, there’s a lot of concern about the number of beds in Yellowknife and the need to do some upgrades there, and I’m committed to working with Avens to increase the number of beds available in Yellowknife. Four years ago we opened the Dementia Facility, which would be the last step, the last ability for us to provide services. It would be independent in homes, then if you have to, it would be independent living facilities with our support, then you might have to move to a regional centre for long-term care, and if you, unfortunately, proceed into a state of dementia or are suffering from dementia, your next and last step would be moving into the territorial facility here in Yellowknife, which is the Avens Dementia Facility which we opened four years ago here in Yellowknife and fully fund the operation of that facility.

There are a number of steps that an individual would go through and we’re committed to looking at the number of long-term care beds in the Northwest Territories. We recently had a study done that suggested, rightfully, that the need for beds is going to increase. We believe we’re going to start helping these people at the front end and hopefully delay their need to go to a long-term care bed where they have full supports, and hopefully, we’ll be able to delay and help people not have to go into something like the Dementia Facility earlier in life. More supports at home, the longer we’ll be able to help people to stay where they truly want to be, which is in their communities, in their homes, in their regions, and then, ultimately, Yellowknife, if need be.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Continuing on with general comments, I have Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Just a chance to address some of the capital issues regarding… Maybe I can begin in Fort Simpson. I think it was last year I remember the Fort Simpson health budget was actually on the capital plan. I had thought it was in the capital plan, but it certainly is a red flag now. I know that they’ve done the initial work. I think they’ve done a peer review of the project and now they’re looking at doing an RFP for the planning study. I just want to get some details on that. I know that the community is anxious. There has been a lot of discussion in the community and the leadership with the village, the band and the Metis about the potential location of a new health centre, the type of health centre they’re interested in, the building plans, what’s in there and what it’s going to accommodate. They’re really interested in seeing that and they’re waiting for engagement by the Department of Health to move this forward. It’s a pretty significant replacement of their existing health centre. The existing health centre has been known for the past five years of having a crumbling foundation and it’s a much needed replacement. I think that’s why they listed it as a red flag.

As an MLA, you always get concerned when there are other projects in other areas, and you’re wondering why theirs got done, and my health centre didn’t get done in this case. But I’ll use this opportunity to ask the Minister and the department about the importance of replacing the Fort Simpson Health Centre. It’s our own technical report that said that it’s almost in immediate need for replacement and yet there it is, we’re still operating with it.

So those are some of the initial questions that I’d like to ask about the replacement of the Fort Simpson Health Centre. It’s been red flagged publically. Maybe you could help me and tell the

public exactly what that means as we move to replace the facility in Fort Simpson.

As well, the health cabins in the smaller communities are in need of replacements. On behalf of Trout Lake, I’ve written to the Minister about the health cabin in the community of Trout Lake. It was infested with ants for the summer and bats were getting in there. It’s not really a sanitary situation, especially when you’re treating residents and even when the doctor comes in, that’s the facility he has to use to meet and assess his patients there.

I did note that in the case of Jean Marie, because these are actually leased facilities, but in the case of Jean Marie they’ve got the same scenario. They’ve got an older building owned by the band and it’s too much for them to replace. They’ve got limited capital and no room to replace old and build new. So the department did step up and say, okay, we’re going to build a new health cabin in the community of Jean Marie. So that’s something that the community of Trout Lake’s immediate needs would be in terms of constructing a new health cabin for the community of Trout Lake.

So I’ll just stop there. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Fort Simpson Health Centre is on the books for something that we still need to do. We’ve done the functional review; we’re still in the middle of doing the planning assessment. I’ve had a number of conversations with the Member as well as the community about this building and I’m committed to having some of our staff come into the community to meet and talk about their concerns, location being one of their concerns, but also the building itself.

We have some prototypical designs that were prepared in the 16th Assembly and shared with

Members at the time, talking about the different types of facilities, and the facility in Simpson would be a B/C type facility. So there are certain programs and space requirements and technical requirements that must be in the building. Those are things that we ensure in the building.

So although there is a prototypical design, we do appreciate the opportunity to make some tweaks, some minor modifications to accommodate some of the community desires, needs and whatnot.

We are continuing to move forward. I would like Perry just to quickly talk a little bit about some of the results of the planning study and some of the additional assessment that was happening on that building and then we can come to me for a little bit more. So, if you don’t mind, Mr. Chair, go to Perry.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Mr. Heath.

Thank you, Mr. Heath. We’ll continue on with Minister Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wanted to just mention, but to be clear, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a project in Simpson with the electrical, mechanical and other issues and some more concerns around infection control and stuff like that and the fact that standards have increased so much since that building was originally built. We still believe that Simpson has to be a priority.

At the same time, the Member has brought up concerns about the health stations that exist, the health cabins/health stations. I’m going to refer to them as health stations. We have two that the Member has addressed. One is in Trout Lake and one is in Jean Marie River. The one in Jean Marie River is a government asset while the one in Trout Lake is not a government asset. It is a band lease. Unfortunately, the one in Trout Lake is the one with the significant ant and other problems. We feel that both of these facilities need to be addressed and we are moving forward. We’ve been out to assess them. We are having conversations in the communities trying to figure out what our next logical steps would be.

As far as build or addressing them, I would say that given the current state and our ability to provide safe, competent, quality care to those facilities is more hindered than it is at Simpson. I would say that these two facilities would have to be a higher priority moving forward than Simpson, but it doesn’t mean that Simpson isn’t still on the books. It’s something that we’re working towards. But in Trout Lake we need to make sure that we can provide care in a safe environment, and we’re working with the community. Whether we move forward and try to find a new lease opportunity or whether it’s something we have to bring in there still gets to be determined, and we are doing that work now. I will certainly keep the Member and the community informed as we move forward and try to figure out what the best course of action will be.

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much. I think they have indicated that the foundation was reassessed. That’s contrary to the document that I have. So, maybe the Minister can commit to sharing with me the engineering reassessment, because it’s also the HVAC, or the heating ventilation, air conditioning system, too, that had some serious concerns. Still, meeting with the community is certainly a priority and I urge the department to continue to do that, meet with the Village of Fort Simpson, the mayor and the chief, as well, and the Metis Council.

Just for clarity for the request for proposal for the planning study, I think the Public Works Minister says it will be issued here shortly. So, when would the actual planning study get underway then? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m absolutely happy to share that report on the pilings. Yes, we know that there are some other challenges with the facility for it to continue as a health centre, which is why the health centre is still in the planning process. We are, I believe, currently doing the planning study and it will take several more months to complete, but I believe that’s happening in this fiscal year. So we’ll be able to come forward with more information on that as that planning study moves towards completion.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Continuing on with general comments, I have Ms. Bisaro.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just have a few general comments and I feel the need to pretty much repeat the comments that I made yesterday when we were considering the Housing Corporation’s budget. It follows up on my statement and my questions to the Minister earlier today, and that’s my concern for seniors’ housing.

The Minister has advised that yes they are, they recognize that the numbers of seniors are going to increase, that they are using an Aging in Place Strategy, but he has yet to recognize, in my view, that we have seniors right now who need supported living and there is no space for them. We’re building facilities, I appreciate that, but we don’t have space right now and even with the facilities, once they’re completed, we will still have, particularly in Yellowknife, no space for seniors who need supported living and/or who need extended care.

The issue of the expansion and the renovation project at Avens is a really big issue for me. I appreciate that the department is working on it, but again, I think that there must be something more

that the department can do to get this project moving forward.

Again, I appreciate that they’re waiting for this working group, but when I look at the projects that are in this budget, there are several projects which are going to be completed in ’15-16 and I think one or two that might be completed in ’16-17, but there is nothing in this budget which is a new project, whether it’s for seniors or otherwise. There are no projects which are going to be started in either ’15-16 or, I think, in ’16-17. We’re not starting any new major projects. There’s some small stuff but there is nothing new, and it tells me that the department hasn’t yet recognized or they can’t get Cabinet to recognize that infrastructure must be started not five years from now but now in order to accommodate the numbers of seniors that we’re going to have who are going to be needing supported living and particularly extended care. I don’t know quite how to get the message through. Maybe it is there and maybe it’s just that the government doesn’t support the funding for these capital projects, but I would certainly hope that in the next capital budget, ’16-17, we’re going to see at least one new building construction project that will facilitate accommodation of seniors. At the moment, I don’t see that there’s anything there and it doesn’t sound as though there’s going to be anything there, from what I’m hearing from the Minister.

To the issue of aging in place, absolutely I want to age in place, but I also recognize that there comes a time when I cannot, and the Minister knows that full well, because he has family members who are currently in a situation that is very close to that. Somehow we have to assist, particularly in Yellowknife. We have an organization in the Avens Society who is willing to build 60 beds for various purposes, but they’re willing to build 60 beds and to accommodate seniors in varying places across the continuum of care. We know that a NGO organization such as Avens can build a facility cheaper than the government can. That’s been proven with the Dementia Facility, and we know that they are willing to take that risk and they are willing to find the financing. They simply need a guarantee from the government.

When I asked the question earlier, the Minister said that there’s presumably, if the building is built then it would be funded by GNWT to the tune of some $3.5 million or something. I can’t quite remember the number. That’s not the kind of thing that Avens is going to be able to take to the bank and get a mortgage. If I went to my banker and said, well, you know, um, they said that there’s going to be maybe money to help me build my house, but I’m not really sure, there’s absolutely no way I’m going to get any kind of a mortgage based on that kind of a vague promise. If we’ve got an organization that’s willing to take on a mortgage, that’s willing to build us a

60-bed facility, I’m struggling to understand why we are not bending over backwards to find a way to accommodate them. I know that things are not firm yet, but it would seem to me that we know we need the beds, we know the spaces are required, we know we don’t have current spaces, and yet I just don’t hear the words coming out of the Minister’s or the government’s mouth that says yes, we’re going to get on that and we’re going to get on that not today but yesterday because we know that it’s an urgent need.

That’s my biggest concern with this budget. The projects that we’re currently finishing and we’re sort of in the middle of are great projects. They’re definitely required. We need to be upgrading our health centres, replacing our health centres and providing for seniors facilities which are coming through the Housing Corporation, but we need to accept the urgency of the need for housing for seniors.

I have to comment on the total amount of this budget. It says, I think it’s $84 million. Yes, $84 million, almost $84.5 million. But of that $84 million, a huge amount, I think almost half is identified for Stanton Hospital. The Stanton Hospital project, again, is a very needed project, but we’re not going to start construction on that until I think it’s 2018-19. It’s well down the road.

Really, if you look at it, we’re talking about a department which is 25 percent or more of our operations budget and we’re spending $48 million or so in capital expenditures. Like the difficulty that I had with Education and their budget, this is better, but it’s not a heck of a lot better, and we need to start putting a bigger priority on the departments that deal with our people, Education, Health, and Housing. Now, Housing, I’m reasonably pleased with the focus we’ve put on housing because we’ve put some extra money in there over the last couple of years, but I have the same concerns with the capital dollars we’re putting in Health and Social Services that I did with Education. That’s it.

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are committed to ensuring that our seniors have the beds and the supports that they need in the Northwest Territories. I hear the Member saying that we’re not doing anything, and obviously, she knows I disagree. Today the Housing Corporation has in their budget money to move forward on five independent living homes in the Northwest Territories. That’s new projects and new things that are being done by the Government of the Northwest Territories. We also know that every public housing unit is available to seniors if they qualify and if they wish to use them. We are building 18 new beds, beds that aren’t available today. They do not exist today. Eighteen new beds

in Norman Wells that are going to support the Northwest Territories. We have pretty much finished construction of nine new beds, beds that don’t exist today, in Behchoko, which are going to help reduce the demands everywhere in the Northwest Territories because we have one Territorial Admissions Committee. These beds are going to help. Is it enough? Not yet. We know that more is necessary and we’re going to continue to move forward to find ways.

I want the facility at Avens. I want those additional beds. I think everybody does. We recognize that there is significant value to the Northwest Territories in having these beds. We do have a capital process. Avens, on many occasions, has come to us asking us to explore many, many different options, and the option of guaranteeing beds and supporting them in getting a bank loan is just one of the options that they have presented. It isn’t the only option they have presented. I could count probably four different alternatives that they wish us to explore. We’ve asked them to help us break it down into one. Let’s break it down into the one that will give us the best results and work together to find a way to get this facility built. We are exploring those options with the steering committee that I mentioned earlier today. We have already kicked off the process in cooperation with the steering committee to do the work necessary to get it into the capital plan, and as the Member knows, getting projects into the capital plan, we have to answer specific questions. Is the facility going to help us with the protection of people? Is it going to help us with the protection with assets? Is it going help with the protection of the environment? There are a number of things that we have to do to build a case for including it into the capital plan. We’re working with Avens to help them help us develop a plan that will help us get it into the capital plan.

The first step, obviously, is a planning study, which is basically the technical assessment of the current facility. We need to make sure that all that’s complete, all the information is there to allow us to have something to bring forward to this House for consideration. I want this facility as much as everybody else. I believe this facility adds significant value to the Northwest Territories, but there are steps we have to take, and for the Member to say why don’t we just guarantee these beds, that is only one of at least four options that have been presented. We need to clarify which one they wish to pursue. We are doing that work and we will continue to do that work because we know the importance of increasing the number of beds in the Northwest Territories to meet our current and long-term needs.

I would like the deputy minister, Ms. DeLancey, just to talk a little bit about some of the analysis that’s gone on with respect to beds. We have a bit of time

here in order to get this done and get it done right. If we can go to Ms. DeLancey for just a few comments.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Ms. DeLancey.

Thank you, Ms. DeLancey. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you. I’m not saying that it’s all done, because we know that we need to continue to move forward to ensure that the beds meet our future and long-term needs.

I can say that over the last eight years we have invested around $86 million in developing and expanding long-term care facilities in the Northwest Territories, so we continue to plug at this, we continue to address this. Like I said, I, as much as anybody, want to see that new facility and the upgrades of the existing Avens facility done. I would like to see those 55 beds available in Yellowknife.

The next topic that the Member discussed was Stanton and the $40 million. I’m going to go to Mr. Heath to talk a little about the $40 million and how it’s intended to be utilized. I just want to say that Stanton is a $300 million to $350 million project. It is the largest capital project ever undertaken by the Government of the Northwest Territories. It is a

significant asset to Yellowknife, to the Northwest Territories, and I don’t think that can be taken away from the entire process that we are discussing here today. We are looking at one year of a multi-year project, but it is a $350 million build in the Northwest Territories, the largest capital project that we have even undertaken. I think it’s necessary, I think it’s important. It is a facility in dire need of this upgrade. So, $40 million is a portion of the project, it’s not the whole project.

If we could go to Mr. Heath, please.

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Mr. Heath.

Thank you, Mr. Heath. Continuing on with general comments, I have Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to the House to the Minister and staff here for this review of Health and Social Services.

The first thing I am interested in is what the status is of our telehealth and associated technologies, radiology, perhaps there is a pharmaceutical aspect to it and so on, across our 32 communities with respect to helping with both emergencies and managing medical travel. I know the Minister is aware that that is a steep source of the demand on our resources and much of that is unnecessary and there is potential for dealing with that. I think there is a good strategy in place, but we have been well aware of that since early in the 16th Assembly. It

just seems to be very, very slow unfolding. Maybe an update on that.

I have to follow up on my colleague Ms. Bisaro’s comments on the Aven Campus. I know the Minister is aware it is full. The waiting lists are long and getting longer. Rapidly there is an urgent need, now. Hopefully the Minister has heard that.

We also need work, either through partnerships with private enterprise or incentives perhaps, to foster the provision of facilities for seniors that have some financial independence and yet high care level needs. High needs for high level care with no current facilities to meet those needs. I know a lot of families are struggling with that.

I have heard the Minister’s response to Ms. Bisaro, and Members have raised this issue for years without any concrete commitments, and now the need is critical. The Avens, obviously, has a proven track record, high standards and performance. They achieved a very high level in their move to accreditation most recently. They are an organization that accomplishes what it sets out to do. It’s a can-do organization that attracts support and investment from the community, businesses and individuals, and I don’t think there is any argument they are very efficient at providing services and putting infrastructure in place compared to other projects the government has taken on.

We continually hear from this Minister, “We do have a capital process.” Not just this Minister, every Minister. I am looking; it’s not there. We’ve been at this for years. I am looking at the capital plan; it’s not there. The Minister says Avens has presented many options and then specified four options. Well, why would they have presented all those options, Mr. Chair? They are presenting all those options because every one fails. The government has failed to move until we are now critical. What can we say about this? I don’t know how they keep their sanity and keep going, but these seniors are tough people.

It needs to get into the capital plan “just now.” Again, I am looking at the plan. But indeed, does Avens need capital dollars? I would say Avens now recognizes that it’s going to be way too late if we go through the capital planning process. I would say the Minister must agree to that, given the current need and the rising need. Creatively, I would say, and through a lot of work with the community and their own resources, they are now saying we don’t need capital dollars, please keep us out of this capital process, it’s failed us at every turn we’ve attempted, keep us out of it. We need a bankable commitment that the department will support residents that use the campus. The bottom line is, they are poised, they are moving, and I know the Minister has worked to help them do that. I recognize that and I thank the Minister for that. But let’s complete the equation and get this happening.

Stanton Hospital, I still have serious concerns and reservations about the P3 aspects of Stanton Hospital. I know that the government is aware that similar efforts in Canada and other countries, Britain in particular, have in fact cost the residents hundreds of millions of dollars more than it would have under a public project approach, and along with that are some of the social aspects such as privatization of jobs and so on and the potential race to the bottom. I know the government is committed to this track. We’ll see what comes in. But I asked the government to take a very close look and particularly given, again, the intentions of government to seek a greater borrowing limit and

consider whether or not we could avoid that risk and take it on ourselves.

I am very happy to see some of the facilities that we are getting in place. The Minister mentioned the elders facilities in Norman Wells and Behchoko. Those are great to see and those are big projects. I think we have done some good work in standardizing the formats of those so that we can be efficient with those and so on, albeit the costs are pretty extreme on a per bed basis, especially compared to the Avens facility.

The health centres, I watch methodically the discussion between Fort Providence and Fort Res. Fort Res kindly stepped aside and we went ahead with Fort Providence. We are into completion and now we are moving on with the Fort Res one. Those are great to see and I know that the Minister is aware that we need to keep going with that, not just in Yellowknife. I am going to leave it at that and I’m going to speak to some specifics as we go through detail. Some of that I know is repeat, but it bears repeating. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. With respect to telehealth and a lot of the other eHealth or e-social services systems that we’re working on, there are a number of things in place and we continue to move forward with a number of initiatives. In this budget you’ll see some money for CFSIS, which is the upgrade of the Child and Family Services Information System which, no doubt the Member knows and we all know, has to be done. It is a critical piece of technical infrastructure that we need to get up and running in a useable way. Not just there but it has to be useable and functional for our staff. It is a couple-year project as we move forward, but it’s essential.

We do have telehealth in all of our community health centres and we are using them. We do know that we are using them for things like TeleSpeech and a number of things, doctor/patient interactions. I have travelled throughout the Northwest Territories, as I said, since I have become the Minister of Health and Social Services, and I have visited a large number of health centres. Some of them are using it more effectively than others are, and some are using it in more creative ways. We need to continue to push all of our health authorities to find and utilize it as much as possible because it continues to be a great tool. But it’s not the only thing that we’re using. We have invested, and we continue to invest, in things like DI/PACs, and we have been able to acquire a whole lot of money from organizations like Infoway.

We are continuing to move forward with EMR. It’s in Yellowknife Health and Social Services, Hay River Health and Social Services, Fort Smith Health and Social Services. We’re in the process of trying to

get it into Stanton right now. There have been a few little hiccups as we are rolling that out but we will work through those. We will make it happen. We are going to get it into all the health centres in the next, I believe, two to three fiscal years is our plan. Tlicho would be the last one on our list to get done, but we continue to move forward. EMR is a huge tool for all of us in the health care system.

We have a number of other tools that we’re using throughout the Northwest Territories, so we continue to move forward. These are actually going to be enhanced once we get the fibre optic line down the valley. We’ll have higher speeds, higher times. It’s going to improve our telehealth response in the valley and in the communities that are receiving services along that line. So there’s a lot of good news on that front. But based on my journeys, clearly we have to work a little harder with the authorities to get them to use telehealth to help us reduce things like medical travel. That is something that the department is keenly aware of. This is one of those things that we believe will be easier once we move to a single authority so that we can have the interaction without some of the barriers that we’ve created for our own design.

I hear the Member about Avens. There is no question that I am supportive of this project. I have been Minister of Health and Social Services for one year. I have been an MLA for seven years. In the last Assembly, Avens was very keen to get the Dementia Facility built, and we all worked together to find a way to do that. I did not hear anything about this new facility. The Member says it has been years and years, but I just don’t see that exactly as the Member does. I didn’t have anybody approach me in any capacity as Public Works and Services or Health and Social Services until I actually became the Minister of Health and Social Services a year ago. It’s the first time somebody approached me and said, we need to make this facility. I understand that they did go to Members for that, but since I’ve been the Minister I’ve been working hard with Avens to find a way to make this happen, and we’re going to find a way to make this happen.

The Member says, what about having them be able to charge higher rates? This is one of the options that they approached us with and said, how about if we can charge higher rates for individuals in our facility? The problem is, if we provide them a loan guarantee or if we fund this project, our policies and procedures have to be utilized, which limits the amount that an individual can pay. We actually have a set criterion what people will pay in our facilities. We are actually exploring some policy options around that to see if we can amend that based on requests from Avens. So we are exploring all of these things that the Member is talking about. We are wanting badly to find a way to work with Avens to make this facility a reality, but there are

some limitations. We need them to help us come with a final, solid ask of what path they want to take, and we’re open to whatever they want. At this point we will find a way. Some ways will take longer than others, but we are open to any options that they want to explore.

We have invested in them. We have given $25,000 so that they can have some consultants work on this project with us and with them. So, we’re involved. We are working with them closely, and we are going to continue to work with them, and we will find a way because we recognize the importance of this facility and we are committed to helping them do it.

With respect to Stanton, as a Regular Member in the 16th Assembly I sat with my colleagues, many of

them still sitting on that side of the House, and we strongly recommended that the GNWT develop a P3 policy, so they did. The GNWT developed a P3 policy in the last government. The GNWT’s P3 policy requires that all projects over $50 million be reviewed for delivery as a public/private partnership. As a result, the detailed feasibility analysis and a business case was completed which clearly showed that delivering Stanton under P3 would be the most cost-effective project delivery method following our P3 policy that is in place. Delivering Stanton as a P3 is anticipated to deliver significant value for money to the Northwest Territories. Canada is a mature P3 market with a robust P3 model that has been proven to safeguard the public interest in project delivery.

I am going to go to Mr. Miltenberger, who is the lead for this project, but before I do that, I would like to just be very clear – and hopefully everybody is going to get this – we are not privatizing health care in the Northwest Territories and there is no expectation or intention on our behalf to privatize health care in the Northwest Territories. We will not do it. It’s not our plan and it’s not something we are interested in doing. We will not privatize the delivery of health services in the Northwest Territories.

When it comes to P3 projects, I would like to go to Minister Miltenberger, the Minister of Finance, who is leading this Stanton Renewal Project.

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Before we do so, I would like to draw everyone’s attention here in the House. Joining us in the gallery here for this afternoon’s proceeding is our Conflict of Interest Commissioner, Mr. David Jones.

---Applause

Welcome to the Assembly, Mr. Jones. Continuing on with our response to the questions, we will go to Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The business case for Stanton as a P3 project was done last March and shared with the

committee last March. There is a process underway. There has been no contractor picked or signed yet. A lot of final decisions have yet to be made in terms of what will exactly be included in the P3 project, what kind of hard services will be potentially part of that project. So, there is still a process underway.

I don’t have much more to add to what the Minister has already stated other than that, as he has pointed out, this P3 process is very prevalent now across the country. The federal government has a multi-billion dollar P3 project office. This P3 approach has been used successfully now all over the country. The Mackenzie Valley fibre link is in fact going to be a P3 project as well. So, this is a good way to proceed. We have done the groundwork and can have discussion with the committee about any specific concerns that they may have as long as it doesn’t jeopardize the timelines of the project. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Minister Abernethy.

Thank you. The Health and Social Services has obviously been participating in the working group that’s moving forward with this Stanton renewal, and our objective is to make sure that that building meets our clinical and functional needs and we continue to make sure that all the proponents, including Public Works and Services and Finance, are aware of our technical needs because we need to make sure that that building meets our functional needs today, tomorrow and into the future.

I just want to go back to Avens for a second because when I mentioned that the first time anybody ever approached me was a year ago, I saw the Member laugh a little bit. Our records show that the first time we were ever contacted by Avens about Avens expansion was June 2013, and since that time, that first discussion in June 2013, they have come to us with three or four alternate options. That obviously is something we are working with them on, is finding the alternate options of finding the one that suits. They never approached me and nobody talked to me until October 2013, when I became…

---Interjection

Nobody approached me as an MLA, Bob.

---Interjection

I am. Nobody approached me and said, we want to build Avens. The first I became aware of it is when I was approached by Avens and they said, we want to build and extend Avens, and that is something that I am committed to working towards. They first approached the department. Their first discussion with Avens was October…no, June 2013. So it’s

great that they were talking about it for years. It might have been great if maybe they had started to engage with the department sooner.

In the meantime, Bob, I mean MLA for Weledeh, we are committed to working with… We are working closely with them. I’ve had many, many meetings with the president. I’ve had many, many meetings with the staff. I’ve directed the staff to make progress and to find a way to make this a reality in time. We have to work with the processes we have available to us, and I am exploring, we are exploring all opportunities.

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. I do sense a lot of passion in the room here today, but I would really caution all Members to actually direct your questions and responses through the Chair so we can record this accordingly. With that, I will go to Ms. Bisaro.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move we report progress.

---Carried

I would like to thank Minister Abernethy today and Mr. Heath and Ms. DeLancey. Thank you for joining us today. If I could get the Sergeant-at-Arms to please escort our witnesses out of the Chamber. With that, I will rise and report progress.