I now call the Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of Committee? Mr. Beaulieu.
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
In the Legislative Assembly on June 16th, 2016. See this topic in context.
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Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 50-18(2): Main Estimates, 2016-2017, and Committee would like to consider the NWT Housing Corporation, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, and Department of Justice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
I now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Minister, would you like to bring witnesses into the Chamber. Minister Cochrane.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the chamber. Would the Minister please introduce her witnesses to the committee.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. On my right is Jeff Anderson. He is the president and the CEO of the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. On my left is Jim Martin. He is the vice president of finance and infrastructure services. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Minister. Yesterday we left off on pages 367 and 368. That is the detail associated with finance and infrastructure services. I will let committee find their place. If there are any comments or questions, just raise your hand. Ms. Green.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I would like the Minister to provide an explanation of how the transitional supportive housing is going to be distributed to support both male and female clients? Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The semi-independent housing program will be distributed by -- we put out a letter of interest, and then we will be seeing which shelters come forward. We have talked with the Salvation Army and the Yellowknife Women's Society and the YWCA. The Salvation Army, the Yellowknife Women's Society have come forward and have expressed an interest. The YWCA, we are still working with to see if we can support them as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. According to a meeting I had at the end of last week with the Salvation Army, they have no interest in this project. I am wondering how the needs of male clients are going to be served. Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. That is not our understanding. We have had several meetings with the Salvation Army, and they have talked about using either the main floor of the normal Salvation Army building or the bottom floor of the Bailey House. We will double check to make sure that they haven't changed their mind. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. In the event that the Salvation Army is not prepared to serve men, how will they be part of this program? Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. If the Salvation Army does not commit to working with us, then we will try to find another entity to provide those services. If we can't find anyone, then I am sorry, we will have to bring it forward and look at alternatives. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. How will this fund be divided among the service providers? Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have the finances for 30 renovations. We will be meeting with all of the interested parties who submit their names forward -- will be pulled together into a group. We will be negotiating with those groups. We do, however, recognize that there is a greater population of men within the communities who are homeless. So we would be advocating strongly within the group to provide support to that. I will let any interested parties that come forward -- it would be their decision on how that is divided. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Ms. Green. Are there any further comments or questions on this section? Mr. Nadli.
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Michael Nadli Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, my questions are in regards to, of course, the Homeless Assistance Fund. Just trying to get the numbers down in terms of the circumstance of homeless people in small and rural communities. I understand that the department has undertaken a pilot study initiative to try to advance the idea to see if the effort can be maybe scoped out and tested on the ground, so to speak, at the community level. Could the Minister provide perhaps an update or overview in terms of the intention of that pilot case project? Mahsi.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I was a bit confused in all honesty because the Member asked for the information on the Homeless Assistance Fund, but the Homeless Assistance Fund is actually one-time funding that people can access for up to $3,000. I am thinking that the question should have been the Northern Pathways to Housing, which is about putting in homeless shelters. If that is the case, then we have the three communities that we are putting the homeless shelters into and that is Simpson, Aklavik, and Behchoko. Then we have $70,000 in operational funding that we are giving to those communities. That is our capacity at this time. Then in future years we will be looking at expanding those programs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Michael Nadli Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank the Minister for reply. If indeed these are pilot cases in those three communities, is there perhaps a process in terms of undertaking those initiatives? That is a great step in terms of addressing the homelessness issues in small communities. Just in terms of process, as I understand it, a pilot case is undertaken at the community level, it is monitored, and perhaps some flexibility in terms of how a program initiative of that nature could work if implemented. At some point, there is an evaluation in terms of trying to reflect upon maybe the successes of the program experience and perhaps learn from it and maybe apply it at a later stage. Is that the case? Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The process to fund the communities was actually put out a couple of years ago. We submitted out to all the communities. Actually, at that time we had funding to look at four. Only three communities came forward at that time. We worked with the three communities to set them up. They are just getting structured in now because it takes some time within government. When we look at expanding that, then we would be again submitting a request to all communities that don't have that in and asking them to come forward and see if they would be interested. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Michael Nadli Deh Cho
Thank you, maybe I could ask the question the other way. These two communities that are undertaking as pilot project cases, could the Minister define what pilot project are in terms of delivering these homeless initiatives at the community level. Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The term pilot -- there was funding for the four and three came forward. It is just about building capacity. We really want to make sure that the communities that take on these projects have the skills and abilities and the capacity to provide them and to do them to sustain the program. So we want to make sure that we provide the proper support before we go forward and to expand that to make sure that they succeed. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Daniel McNeely Sahtu
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question is to the homelessness initiative. Is it a formula headquarters funding arrangement where the five districts are divvied up to this particular pot of money? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Mr. McNeely. I will remind all Members and guests in the gallery to turn their cell phones on silent and turn all audio devices to off. Minister.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again I am a bit confused with the question. If it is the homelessness initiative, that is the housing assistance funding. That is the $3,000 application base. If we are talking about the small community homelessness fund, that is also application based. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Daniel McNeely Sahtu
If we use, in the working exercise here, the Sahtu as a model, so your application, based on what is submitted, so that particular region could hand in ten applications and get approved? Is that the way I interpret it there, Mr. Chair?
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes. If a community does submit ten applications, each application would be considered within the community. We are talking about the small-community homeless fund. I want to make sure I am talking about the right program. Within the community of Yellowknife, or the southern communities, the maximum fund for that is $10,000. Within the northern communities, the maximum is $15,000. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Daniel McNeely Sahtu
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I was referring to the small-community homeless fund. Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. That was the one I assumed and so made the statement that, yes, every application can be considered and north is $15,000, southern communities are $10,000. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, to the Northern Pathways to Housing, there is enough money in there to do four projects, but three projects were approved. I notice that the same budget appears in last year's revised mains and mains and also in this year's mains. I am wondering if the money lapsed last year? Did we do three last year and doing three more this year? Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. No, it was just three in total. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So that would be three from 2015-16 or is it three for 2016-17? Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have had the money in place for over a year, but it has taken us time to actually work with the communities to get them to finish up. In fact, one of the communities just came in the other day to finish the process even though they expressed interest over a year ago. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you. So my original question was: did the money from 2015-16 -- some of it or most of it -- lapse?
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Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Last question. So that means there is enough money there for one more community to come forward to access their portion of the budget? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The request was sent out a couple of years ago, so when we only got the three, we stopped at that. We made a commitment that we would make sure that three communities were successful before we went any further with any more funding on that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Beaulieu is waving me off. Do we have any further comments or questions? Mr. Thompson.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Just a couple of clarifications with Northern Pathways to Housing. So is it $280,000 at $70,000 per project, or is it three divided by the $280,000? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes. It is $70,000 a year for operating and maintenance. That will be continued. Then we have budgeted $400,000 per unit to be able to provide the units in the community. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Minister. That is good to hear. I am just confused with the math though. It is $280,000. Why wouldn't we budget $210,000? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Actually, it was noted that there was the $70,000 left in from the operating and maintenance from the last tender. I will pass it over to my deputy minister if you would like to expand on that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Anderson
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we've been working for quite a while with the communities to try to get this program up and running to deal with homelessness in our rural and remote communities. Our initial approach to it was to try and renovate a single house that we had in inventory in our communities. The cost of that was so--was out of the--over and above the ability at that time we had to fund it, so what we've done with the new federal money, we've put these little four-plexes in place. We have designed a four-plex concept, pretty small, 320 square feet to address this population or try to address it.
So we think three is the right number to move forward at this time to see if we can get the proper supports in place, and that's with the community groups, but also they're partnering with the community services agencies as well to provide some of the clinical supports. So if this model is successful, it's something that we'll look forward to expanding on in the future, but for now, we want to stay with the three and see how it works out. Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Anderson. I'm not arguing about, or I totally understand the concept. I'm just trying to understand, the budget is $280,000, and you have three-- it's $70,000. You have three projects. It's $210,000, so there's a savings of $70,000, unless that--is that $70,000 for over expenditures, or over cost runs for these communities so you make sure you don't fall or they don't, I guess, stop the success of the program? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I didn't catch that. Yes, correct. We haven't finished the project yet, so we want to actually leave the money where it is because sometimes projects do come in over expenditure. If the projects come in under costing, all of the savings will be re-profiled to stay within the homelessness initiatives that we have. Thank you, Mr. Chair
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the Minister for that answer, well thought out. I have to congratulate the department on doing that in thinking, being proactive instead of, have to do supps. afterwards. I like the idea where you're going with the money. My last or my next question is, this seems to be one of the favourite topics, is where is RCMP housing in the scope of things? Is it in this area here or the maintenance and operation stuff or is it somewhere else? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll let the deputy minister answer that question.
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Anderson
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the RCMP project is one of the projects that will be identified in our revised capital estimates, because this year is the construction phase of that project, and also acquiring land in some of the other regional centers, so it won't show up on the operating side until next year once we've got revenue flowing on that. Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank Mr. Anderson for his answer. Just to clarify, so for next year, is this the area it's going to be in or is there going to be another section in your guys' business plan? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll let Jeff Anderson answer that again. Thank you.
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Anderson
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. It will show up in this area for sure under our non-residential building operations. Those are all of the projects and buildings that we lease out on to other agencies of government, and so we would include it in that line object as well. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I know that we've started to talk a little bit about RCMP housing. I wanted to ask, so somewhere in the budget for this year, though, there must be some resources devoted to actually building or managing the construction of RCMP housing in 2016-17. Would that be right? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Actually, on page 356, you'll see the capital amount of $3.4 million, and that is to purchase land, and it's also for one six-unit in Fort Smith, $37.5 million on page 356. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So we don't actually have any O and M resources devoted to the construction or management of that work? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Anderson
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the corporation has project officers in our regional centers. They manage the inspection services on all of our capital projects in all of the communities. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So these project officers, they would be the ones that would be overseeing this work, so we would be expending part of our O and M resources to manage this RCMP housing construction and so on? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Anderson
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have a program that we're putting out about just on the capital side of about $37 million, so our project officers are in the communities already doing projects on the social housing side, so this would be one extra project that they would be providing that support to as well. I guess the other point I would make is that our project officers are primarily in the regional centers, and so they're in the community too to support that process. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So these project officers are managing all of this work. I'm just trying to get a sense of what portion of that work would be this RCMP work, and I'm not asking for an exact figure. Is it one per cent? Five per cent? Fifty per cent? Just trying to get an understanding of what level of work is involved for those folks in managing this particular project. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We're projecting that the scope of work for the project managers will be very small. It would just be during the construction phase. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Why I'm asking this reason or these questions is I'm concerned that, look, I think we all want to keep RCMP in the communities and we want to look after them and treat them well and so on, but we're devoting our scarce O and M funds, maybe even some capital funds, to building housing that perhaps the RCMP should be managing and doing themselves.
Is this taking away from our ability to provide housing for our own people in our own communities? That's the question I guess I have for the Minister. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to just explain to the Members that the NWT Housing Corporation has been in market housing for quite a number of time. We've been providing market housing to the smaller communities because they don't have the market community in their communities. So we've been providing housing for professionals such as social workers, nurses, etcetera, teachers, for decades. It's not like we're starting something new. This is something that we've done for a long time and we continue to do. In fact, we have 400 units within the NWT that we provide that service for currently, and again, the revenue that we make from these units will help us to address the declining CMHC funding that we know will be coming within the next 2036--28? 38? 38. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the answer from the Minister. It's helpful, but the fact is that we've got a limited pool of money to work with for housing for our own people. Now that has to be spread a little bit thinner because we're going to be putting in housing and managing that for the RCMP. I don't know why we're all of a sudden now providing housing for the RCMP, but I guess that was a decision from another Minister, but we've got a limited pool of money to work with. Is this taking away from our capacity to provide housing for our own residents? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. No, this will not take away our ability to provide housing for our residents. We've been doing market housing for about 15 years. We have a huge success rate within the communities. The community has asked us to keep it. Not only do they appreciate it, they require it in order to maintain services such as teachers, social workers, nurses, and now RCMP within our communities, they rely on the NWT Housing Corporation to provide those units. The cost of the RCMP housing actually will be--the operating and maintenance will be charged back to them and they will be paying market rent, so it is a revenue-based program that we're looking at. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Would the Minister then commit to providing information to the House about how much we're spending to build these homes, operate them, and what sort of revenues we're getting back? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have done that to the Committee. If the Committee would like another briefing on that, we are willing to do that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. That's not what I asked. I asked if the information could be provided to the House. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, if the Members would like us to provide it in the House, then we can do that, although I would like to say that I was hoping that the Committee was a way of disseminating information to the Members. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate the commitment from the Minister to publically table that information in the future.
I had one other question I'd like to ask about the co-op two per cent write down. I see that there's declining contributions there. Can we--from $195,000 last year to $155,000 this year. Can the Minister or her staff explain what's going on there? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
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Anderson
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the two co-ops that we support under this program have recently refinanced their mortgages to a rate that's below the two per cent, so the subsidy is not required at this time. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair, appreciate that, and I'm glad that we continue to support co-ops. Just one line down, there's the same thing for non-profit, two per cent write down. There's a decline in funding there as well. Can the Minister and/or her staff explain that as well? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Anderson
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the same situation applies there. We’ve been getting favourable rates through the refinancing of these operations, so it applies across the board for those types of programs where there's an interest rate subsidy. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I love being given deadlines, so my last question is the reduction of funding under other unilateral contributions, if I could get an explanation? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Anderson
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, under that program, we provide support, rent-geared income support on the Avens Ridge which is part of the facility in town here, and with their collection rate, the subsidy has been reduced. They've been doing a good job running their operation, so we've been able to reduce their contribution by $25,000. Thank you.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if since we're on the finance component of Housing Corporation, if the Housing Corporation could let us know what the current balance of total arrears are for the Housing Corporation? I would think that that would be the 2015-16 year, probably. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Anderson
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. As an organization, we've been putting in a lot of energy and effort into improving collection rates that we expect to be over, actually over 100 per cent of assessments for fiscal year 2015-16. We're still in the process of finalizing all the audits for this last fiscal year to get the final numbers, and that we're ready for the fall as part of our annual report. Thank you.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to hear from the department that they're starting to improve their collection rates. I would make the assumption then that the arrears balance is improving. Without giving numbers then specifically because you can't, can the department comment as it relates to the balance going improving, or is it increasing? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The department has made a really conscious effort into the collection of arrears, so at this point, it is improving. However, as Mr. Anderson has pointed out, we're kind of at the process of getting the new CRA assessments, so we're not too sure what we'll be faced coming forward. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to that information. Mr. Chair, I want to go back just for a moment to vacant units. We're still--the infrastructure component here, the budget. I know that the Minister committed to providing a list to committee. However, I would think that here and now, the Housing Corporation would be able to tell us a few things. One is how many vacant units do we actually have currently of all of our assets? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Currently, we have 2,420 public housing units. Fifty of those units are vacant and ready for occupancy, which is a two per cent vacancy rate. One hundred and thirty five units are under repair. I do want to say that people assume that all vacant units in the communities are public housing, but many of them are privately owned. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the reply. Of the assets that we have under home ownership, how many of those are vacant? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Currently, there's 43, but they're just coming on stream, so that is why we have so many, and it's 13 per cent vacancy rate. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chair. How many units do we have of our assets that are, I'll call it boarded up, that are scheduled for demolition? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. At this point, we have 106 units that are boarded up, ready for demolition throughout the communities. However, when I say demolition, we do try to provide them to community groups, people within the programs, to see if we can help them purchase them. So the demolition is actually a last resort. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Lastly on vacant units, of the 400 market housing units that we own in the communities, how many of those are currently unoccupied? Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The marketing housing, the ones that we own, we have 43 vacant. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Yes, and just to close it. It would be appreciated if the department could still follow-up with the list on breaking that out for us community by community, it would be greatly appreciated. That's all the questions that I have for this page right now, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chair. You talked about getting it to us. When can we expect to get this information? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr, Chair. Within a month the Members will have that information. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank the Minister for that. That would have been I guess some encouragement for next time, maybe have the information available when we're doing the business plans for next year, if that could be possible? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I apologize, I neglected to ask the Minister and her staff, there was a reduction of $115,000 for pre-1986 private non-profit housing under the contribution section. Can someone explain that to me, please? Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. That was actually federal money that was one-time funded. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Shall we move on to page 366, operations expenditure summary? Do you have comments or questions on page 366? I see no comments or questions. I will call this page NWT Housing Corporation, finance and infrastructure services, operations expenditure summary, total activity $21,532,000. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
We will move on to programs and district operations on page 370. We will defer the total activity until we complete the discussion or the detail. On page 371, any comments or questions on 371? I'll give committee a moment. Mr. Vanthuyne.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, clearly we can see here under the line item of home ownership programs the PATH program, which is Providing Assistance for Territorial Home Ownership, that there is a considerable reduction from last year to this year. I wonder if the Minister can please provide explanation to the House in regard to that reduction? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Housing Corporation has changed its strategy, and so within the market communities we still offer subsidies for market housing. Within the smaller communities where there aren't the market housing we are now providing the public housing for those needs. So our costs have actually decreased within that strategy. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the comments, however this is a very significant reduction. I think that there has been clearly some concerns amongst Members as it relates to this reduction. Is this the amount that the Department is committing to? I wonder if we can get clarification. I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Anderson will expand on my statement earlier.
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Anderson
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, just to add a bit more detail to this account. What we've done is in our rural remote communities we've changed our strategy a little bit where when somebody wants to buy a house we have incentives in place for them to buy a house that they're renting from us, for example, through our HELP program. You can also purchase a unit from us through the Public Housing program as well.
So when a client wants to purchase those units or those homes, they actually get a subsidy under the PATH program of up to 55 per cent in the North and 44 per cent, I believe, in the southern part of the territory. So they're going to the bank to get the remaining balance. So in these cases, the Corporation is getting money back, so this expense is like depreciation, it's a non-cash expenditure. So we can still meet the same demand that we have now without that -- because it's, if I can explain it well enough, it's essentially like depreciation where you have an expense on your books for the subsidy, but it's a non-cash item, so we can continue to provide the same level of service under this program as we provide now. Thank you.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that the department is finding ways to better improve programming, that's important. We want to make sure that we are providing the best possible program service we can. I just wonder though, however, this is a significant reduction, can the department maybe speak a little bit more to, you know, where that actual funding has then gone? Is there some form of reinstatement? You know, I appreciate that improving the program so that we can get better uptake. I'm trying to get a little bit of a handle on where the actual reduced amount has gone to and where is it going to be. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Anderson
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. As I said, what will happen in this account, if we sell several of our housing units, for example, there'll still be an expense under this, It'll be higher than the budget. As I indicated, it's a non-cash expenditure. So what happens is we take the proceeds that we get from the financing, wherever the client finances their share of the acquisition price of the house, and that money gets rolled back into our revenues for reinvestment in our programs. Thank you.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Okay, I appreciate that, that's a better understanding. That's the questions that I have right now on this page. I'll let others ask. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Herbert Nakimayak Nunakput
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I just have a question on the Beaufort Delta District, the actuals for 2014-15 were $879,300, and for 2016-17 they're $838,100. I just want to see where the reductions are on that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
We're on page 371. Do I have further comments or questions on page 370? One moment. First, Mr. McNeely.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Daniel McNeely Sahtu
Page 371, I notice there CMHC Repair Programs in the previous other year, 2014-15, there was $492 in that budget for CMHC repairs. Can the Minister explain if we're going to see any money or is there monies being applied for to extend CMHC repairs to this budget? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The $492,000 is actually an old CMHC funding, and so it's discontinued. So now being covered under home ownership programs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Minister. Mr. McNeely. There's no further questions from Mr. McNeely. Mr. O'Reilly.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'm looking at the line, minor repairs, under rental housing programs. The figures here jump around quite a bit: 2014-15 it was over $7.4 million, next year is $1.7million in 2015-16, and then in 2016-17 is $2.2 million. So why are these figures jumping all over the place? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, the difference here from 2014-15 actuals to the current mains is primarily explained by a required accounting adjustment at the end of the year. All the same capital projects that we started out with for the year were delivered. However, at the end of the year, we go through an accounting process to ensure that we have them properly classified between major capital and minor capital. Minor capital is considered O and M, and that's why we have a higher number in this case for 2014-15, again, just simply those are the year-end accounting adjustments. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks for the explanation. Not that I don't want to spend money on minor repair, but why is it the difference between last year, in 2015-16, and 2016-17? We just haven't accrued the year end stuff through the accounting or what's happening there? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Martin
Thank, Mr. Chairman. The difference between the 2015-16 budget is explained primarily by the new federal funding, so that's been added in, which is essentially the minor, O and M, related items such as fuel tanks and demolition. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the explanation. So how much of that $2.2 million is actual federal funding? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is $1.5 million of new federal funding that's been added into the 2016 Main Estimates figure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I was afraid I was going to hear this, we're all aware that the federal government's finally getting back into affordable housing, and that's a good thing and we want them there, but I don't want that to be used as an excuse for us not to spend money on housing. So is this going to be a continuing trend where if we acquire more federal dollars we're going to start spending less ourselves on housing? Is that where we're going? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Actually, no, we are still committed to supporting housing within the NWT. This year we have $84 million committed from the Northwest Territories Government and last year it was actually around the same. So even with the $35 million that we received from the federal government, the Government of the Northwest Territories has still put in the same financial figure. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that commitment from the Minister, and it's something that I'll certainly be watching very carefully because I'm sure we all want to work towards improving our housing and getting it out of core need. As new federal dollars come in, we shouldn't be withdrawing our funding as well or during that period as well. Thanks, Mr. Chair. It's more of a comment.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do appreciate the Member's comments. I think that the whole of the GNWT is committed, like I say, to housing and recognize the need, and is committed to trying to address the needs of the residents of the NWT as best as possible. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Minister. Nothing further, Mr. O'Reilly? Mr. O'Reilly has waived me off. Mr. Vanthuyne.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a follow-up question to my PATH questioning earlier. Just quickly from the Department, what will be the reporting means within this document in future Main Estimates for PATH?
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Anderson
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we would anticipate it would stay at that same level, so we're going to continue to have money set aside for the contributions that we provide in Yellowknife, Hay River, and Inuvik that identifies the actual cash outlay when you buy off the market. But in the other communities across the Northwest Territories where we provide the high subsidy, as I said earlier, we'll be asking folks if they want to purchase a unit from the Corporation. Then that would apply in the scenario that I mentioned to you before. Thank you.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that. It seems like then we are going to have kind of two line mechanism for reporting path next year. Is that correct.
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Anderson
Thank you. You will be able to see on our actuals, the expenditure amounts will be consistent probably with previous years. In terms of the budget numbers, it will be at the $75,000 level thank you.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you. Do we have further comments or questions on page 371? Mr. O'Reilly.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I am really tired. I am still trying to understand this PATH stuff. I appreciate the attempts by our Minister and staff to try to explain this. Will the money that is used, will it show up in the public accounts? Is that the place where this is going to show up, this sort of money, in and out again? Or how is that actually going to be reflected? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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June 16th, 2016
Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, it will show up in the financial reports. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks. I think, again, the concern is that we have new federal dollars starting to finally come in. That should not be a reason or -- pardon me -- an excuse for us to withdraw money out of housing. I will be watching the public accounts to see if that is indeed the case. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Comments or questions on 371. Seeing none, we can move to 370. Mr. Nakimayak.
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Herbert Nakimayak Nunakput
Thank you, Mr Chair. My apologies for the mixup earlier. Just getting back to the Beaufort Delta district, my question to the Minister and her staff is 2014-15 actuals were $8,793, and 2016-17 Main Estimates are $8,381. I just want to know if the Minister can elaborate on the cuts on that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Martin
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The reason why, again as mentioned previously regarding the year-end accounting adjustments between major capital and minor -- there was additional projects at the end of the year that were deemed to be minor capital in nature, therefore O and M, and were reclassified. So that explains why the 2014-15 actuals were higher than what you are seeing in the Main Estimates figure. Thank you, Mr Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Regarding the Nahendeh district, I see an increase of $228,000. Could you explain what the increase is on that? Thank you, Mr Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr Chair. I was tempted to ask the Member if he would like us to remove it. Instead of giving you that answer, I will ask Mr. Martin to speak to it.
---Laughter
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Martin
Thank you, Mr Chairman. The increase is explained, again, by the new federal funding that has come in. That is the Nahendeh's share of that new federal funding. That was for, again as mentioned, demolition, fuel, and hot water tank replacements and minor MNR work. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, and I thank you for that answer. However, I notice that you talked about yet a new LHO coming into Fort Liard with three positions, new office space. Where is that money in this budget? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr Chair. That is actually covered within the community housing services which is on page 361.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess I am just a little bit confused because it talks about district operations. So maybe I can get a clarification what district operations means then if it doesn't mean the O and M and staffing of their district office as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Anderson
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The district office that we have in our regional centres, that supports the delivery of our home ownership programs and our capital works that we do. The offices that we have at the community level are under the community housing services activity as well as the resources in administration and maintenance that you see there would be where the dollars are to support the positions, the 128 positions, we have at the community level. Thank you.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Mr. Anderson. Mr. Thompson, do you have further questions that pertain to page 370, as we have already agreed upon 361?
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Mr Chair. Just trying to clarify because I guess it is just a little confusing for myself with this process. I apologize. I see that money is there, so we are all good. Thank you.
---Laughter
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Nothing further, Mr. Thompson? Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Beaulieu is next on my list. Mr. Beaulieu.
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Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr. Chairman, similar questions on the reductions. My interest of course in the North Slave district and South Slave district. Just wondering if they could explain the reductions compared to the actuals in 2014-15.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr Chair. It is the same issue, but I will let Mr. Martin expand on that.
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Martin
Thank you, Mr Chairman. Yes, as mentioned previously, the decrease from 2014-15 actuals to the 2015-16 current main budgets is again explained by the year-end accounting adjustments, reclassifying project expenditures at the end of the year based on scope reviews from major capital to minor capital for proper accounting purposes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr. Chairman, sorry, it caught me a little offguard. I thought that this was for the district operations, and in that I mean the operations of the district staff, all the staff that work in the district operations. I didn't know that these were the program dollars for the communities. I thought they were just the staff that were there and I was anticipating that maybe there was a reduction in the number of staff in those district offices. Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want clarification on the question. Is he asking the number of staff? Or is he just wanting clarification that it is what is covered under here?
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Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr. Chairman -- indicated to me, like, for Mr. Martin's response that this was an accounting reduction, and it is a reduction in the programs. But my assumption was that this was -- the North Slave and South Slave district offices were fully staffed. I just thought that if there was $2 million less spent in the North Slave office only two fiscal years ago, if there was a reduction in the staff that caused that. That was what my question was. So maybe I will ask the question: was there a reduction in the staff in either of those two offices, North Slave or South Slave?
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Anderson
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In our active position list sheet, you would notice that we had 116 positions in 2015-16. We have 116 positions for this year as well. So there has been no change in any of the districts for this year. Thank you.
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Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can I get another explanation from Mr. Martin? I will try to follow it a little bit better now. It is just that I am not sure that I fully understood what the response was. So I will try to quantify what I think that would be. It is just that I was listening for something else and heard something else. Thank you.
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Martin
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We started off the year with a certain sum of capital project dollars. At the end of the year, we deliver those dollars. At the end of the year we do review the scopes of the projects and ensure that we have proper accounting at the end of the year. In some cases, when we review the scopes, we realize that it is more of a minor O and M nature project as opposed to a major capital project. As a result of that, those capital dollars, we end up with less capital expenditures for that particular year, in this case 2014-15, and more O and M expenditures than previously planned. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Do we have any further comments or questions on page 370? Seeing none, I shall call the page. NWT Housing Corporation, programs and district operations, operations expenditure summary. Total activity: $32,440,000. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Looks like we have one information item on page 372. Do we have comments or questions on this? I'll give committee a moment. Ms. Green.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I realize that in order to meet demand the Housing Corporation rents or leases units from private landlords. Is there the interest or the budget to phase out their renting of places from private landlords? Thank you.
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Anderson
Yes, Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We do have a few, about 200 units that we rent out of the marketplace right now. So that's 200 units of about 2800 rental units. So we have over time looked at opportunities to build when we had the capital to. Because you can potentially save money in brand new energy efficient buildings rather than leasing in some cases, but it's not something that we're actively pushing towards getting out of units in rental market through lease at this time. Thank you.
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Michael Nadli Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chair. In terms of leases and the work with the Housing Corporation and LHOs, earlier I think I understood the Minister alluding to the idea of perhaps at some point there could be an arrangement where responsibilities could be arranged so that First Nation organizations that maybe have self-government negotiations in place or already completed, could be a party for a self-government arrangement so that they could be responsible for at least administering and maintaining housing programs at the local level. Could the Minister maybe explain in terms of what she had envisioned in that process? Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Previously, Aboriginal governments have come forward and wanted to take ownership of their housing needs and we tried to work with them and those attempts weren't really successful. So I am really committed to, and I believe, like I had stated many times, that self-governance is important for Indigenous people, and within that true self-governance means that you have to take on ownership of your housing, your children, et cetera. I am really more than open to working with an Aboriginal organization that's willing to try out a pilot project, but I really want to stress that I am not willing to set people up to fail, so it would take a lot of negotiations to sit down with that community to define what exactly that community would need to be able to sustain that. What their strengths are; what are the areas that they need support in, and then developing a really comprehensive plan so that when they do take over their housing within their community they have the tools and infrastructure to succeed within that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Michael Nadli Deh Cho
Thank you. Yes, this could be my last question, Mr. Chair. I take in understanding that process too, it was eluded to that similar-- if there's going to be a path or an approach to making that possibility at some point arriving with the Housing Corporation and with the bodies of First Nation, something very similar or parallel to that process was achieved and it's called the New Deal where a lot of the program or funds were devolved to local governments to administer on their own behalf. Would the corporation consider a precedent of that nature to ensure that successes are reached? Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am a little bit not aware of this program or the New Deal; however, I'm being informed that self-governments would have to ask to draw down jurisdiction to able to do that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Nothing further from Mr. Nadli. Seeing no further comments or questions we will return to page 358, the total corporation expenditure. Do we have comments or questions on 358? There seems to be some confusion among Committee members here. Page 358 is the total corporation expenditure. Are there comments or questions on page 358? It's our final page in the Housing Corporation. All comments were dealt with during the details? I will call the page. NWT Housing Corporation. $109,380,000-- oh, sorry, let me start again.
---Laughter
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
I'll get one of these right. NWT Housing Corporation, total corporation expenditure: $109,380,000. Agreed?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Members. Does committee agree this concludes consideration of the NWT Housing Corporation?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Minister, and thank you to the witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, will you please escort the witnesses from the Chamber. All right, committee, we agreed to continue with our discussion of the Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
We already agreed earlier, but that's good. Would the Minister like to bring witnesses into the Chamber? Minister McLeod.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you. We will gather up the witnesses. Just give us a moment.
---SHORT PAUSE
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Sorry about that confusion. Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. To my right I have Kelly Kaylo, acting deputy minister. To my left I have Deb Archibald, assistant deputy minister, Mineral and Petroleum Resources, and to my far right Julie Mujcin, director, Finance/Administration. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Minister. Committee, we left on pages 240 and 241, economic diversification and business support. We're looking at the detail of this division. Do we have any further comments or questions on pages 240 and 241? Mr. O'Reilly.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I had a couple of questions here. I'm just wondering what's happening with the Film Rebate Program? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's continuing, I believe. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So we are spending money in 2016-17 to support the Film Rebate Program? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It didn't match up with anything on the page, so, but it's continuing. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Okay. The Growing Forward 2 funding, can anybody with the Minister or staff explain whether NFTI, the Northern Farm Training Institute, actually got any support in 2015-16 and how much? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. We are discussing pages 240 and 241. Minister McLeod.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. NFTI did receive funding. The federal government provided $2 million in funding through CanNor to undertake this project, and ITI contributed $200,000. In addition to this funding, ITI has provided another $120,000 in Growing Forward 2 and SEED funding directly to NFTI since 2014. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So NFTI would continue to be eligible for Growing Forward 2 funding and perhaps something under the Northern Food Development Program? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
That's correct, Mr. Chair, as long as there's funding available in those pots. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So I'm just not quite sure how the funding works for these two programs. Is it distributed through the regions, the regional offices, or is it done through headquarters and how does an organization like NFTI apply for this funding? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. All of the funding in those programs are in the regions. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair, I appreciate the answer. I think that's part of the issue is, as I understand it from NFTI's perspective, is that when they want to support work that's actually building capacity within the regions they have to make a whole bunch of different applications to different regional offices to support people coming in to their facility and getting training and then going back and building capacity in their own regions and communities. Is there any other kind of model or approach we could consider here to help support this organization? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The funding is in the region; we believe the regions know best who to support. There's a number of different models we can follow. We could centralize all the money in Yellowknife and we can make those decisions, and I'm sure there's other models as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Look, I'm not suggesting that the money be centralized in Yellowknife but obviously if a small non-profit has to make a number of applications to different regions to support work and building capacity there that creates an administrative burden on a small NGO. So is this something that the department has considered and is there-- or what sort of solutions might there be? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We think the current model works quite well. The region knows best who to support. The regions support individuals to attend NFTI. As I said, there's other models; we could centralize it in Hay River and have them provide all the funding. But we don't see it as a problem for having to apply to a number of different pots. Actually, I think it works quite well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Well, while the department may not see it as a problem as I understand from NFTI they do have a problem. They spend a lot of time and effort in trying to apply to the different regions for pots of money and there's some administrative burden involved in filling out different application forms, trying to talk to different regional offices about status of applications and so on. So I'm going to leave it at that, but I hope the department would try to find a way to make sure that we can better promote agriculture and support this institution in building capacity in the regions. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess it's the first I heard that NFTI had some problems. We're prepared to go and talk to them. If applications are submitted on a timely basis there's usually no problem. We'll follow up with NFTI and see exactly what the problem is then. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
No thanks, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate the commitment of the Minister to follow up with NFTI and try to find a way to streamline or improve support for agriculture. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair R.J. Simpson
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. I have no one further on my list so we can proceed to the next page, page 242. Economic diversification and business support, active positions. Comments? Questions? Mr. O'Reilly.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. There's a reduction in two positions here and can the Minister or staff tell us whether those are vacant positions and what they are and so on? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. There was internal reallocation of one position from MPR to MPI, and there's one reduction in an economic development officer position. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Yes, thanks Mr. Chair. I'm not sure how to approach this because I've asked, and now this will be third time I've asked for information to be compiled about staffing changes that are presented in the Budget and we still don't have it. We've just finished the Housing Corp. In any event, I've asked twice now different Ministers, the Finance Minister, the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, if we could get this information consolidated. I believe it's impeding my ability as an MLA to be able to review the budget.
I asked over 10 days ago now, I believe, for this information, I still don't have it, and I don't understand what the problem is in producing it. Now that I've got the Premier here I'll ask if they can undertake to provide this information to us to help us review the budget department by department? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess it is the first I heard of it. If the committee wants information in that fashion, we will endeavour to do so. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I have raised this twice now. This is the third time. I would really appreciate having the information as soon as possible to help us review departmental budgets. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Additional questions on page 242? Seeing none, we shall move on to 244. Go back. 239. Industry, Tourism and Investment, economic diversification and business support, operations expenditure summary. Total activity: $21,087,000. Mr. O'Reilly.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. On this page, program detail, it says other program costs, there are $17 million in there. I think I understand what it is, but it would be much more helpful if that could be split out in some way. We are talking about economic diversification and business support. To have $17 million sort of lumped together is not really very helpful for the public or Regular MLAs in understanding how we are actually investing that money. Could I ask the Minister if he and his staff could undertake in the future to provide an actual breakdown here, so we could see what sort of funding is provided to agriculture, arts and crafts, traditional economy, film industry -- some of the things that we see in the contribution side, but presumably there is some program support dollars that go along with the contribution money, unless I am not really understanding things very well? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe that, through the budgeting process, normally we review the process with committee to see how it can be improved on, including the reporting and detail. My understanding is that is available. That is an exercise that is done on an annual basis. My understanding is that this is a template that all departments use. Certainly, if the committee feels that we should break it out into finer detail, we are quite prepared to do so. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Yes. Thanks, Mr. Chair. I am asking for a breakdown similar to the description on page 238 where it says, "Specific programs support arts and fine crafts, agriculture, fisheries, trapping and commercial game harvesting." That kind of a breakdown if that is helpful at all. That, I think would be a reasonable thing to look at, rather than a $17 million investment in a whole number of different areas.
But, Mr. Chair, I do have one other question here. It is about the money for the diamond secondary industry. Can the Minister or his staff explain what we are actually getting for the $617,000 that we spend on that? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. The 17 other program costs, that is noted as a request for detail.
We will move on to the upper programs, $617,000 as requested by Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Minister.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We do have a diamond division, I guess if I could call it that, that includes three people that work with the diamond industry promoting value added and also promoting the brands of the diamonds in the Northwest Territories. We are involved with marketing, and we also keep track of the trends in the diamond industry. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The amount of money in this line is decreasing over time. Is that what we can expect in the future as well? I am just not sure what we are getting out of the secondary industry at this point. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. As the Member may or may not know, through our socio-economic agreements, diamond mines could make up to ten per cent of their diamond rough production available for secondary manufacturing. This is a sector that we have been trying to make it a going concern and to make it sustainable. We are still of that view. We believe that, as the production of diamonds increases in the Northwest Territories, that we will continue to do so. We will continue to work to develop the secondary diamond industry so that we can increase the value added to here in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thank you. Moving on to the next summary, on page 244. Industry, Tourism and Investment, minerals and petroleum resources, operations expenditure summary, total activity -- on page 244, we will defer that and go into detail, starting with pages 245. Go ahead, Ms. Green.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I am wondering what role the Mackenzie Valley development contribution is playing in the role of the Aboriginal Pipeline Group. When I Googled them, their site is empty. I thought that they had dissolved. So I am wondering what kind of support the government continues to supply to the APG? Thank you.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are continuing to contribute to the operations of the Aboriginal Pipeline Group. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Could the Minister please provide some detail about the total amount of contribution and what exactly it pays for? Thank you.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We contribute $100,000 and it pays to help with offices and salaries and some office supplies. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you Mr. Chair. Could the Minister please tell us why the government is continuing to support the Aboriginal Pipeline Group? Thank you.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Mackenzie Valley natural gas pipeline, after a long environmental assessment regulatory review process, was granted a certificate of conveyance and public necessity, which was recently extended, the sunset clause was extended until 2022. The Aboriginal Pipeline Group has arrangements when the pipeline goes ahead to become one third owners of the Mackenzie Valley natural gas pipeline. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Could the Minister explain why the government continues to contribute to this organization when the project to build the pipeline is on the back burner indefinitely? Thank you.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. As I said, the sunset clause has been extended to 2022. It was also looking at other opportunities for aboriginal equity participation. We believe that is still an opportunity so that is why we are contributing a lesser amount of $100,000 per year. Others are contributing as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Is there any kind of reporting that the Aboriginal Pipeline Group does on its activities and expenditures to this government? Thank you.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Consistent with other contribution arrangements, they have to meet the financial requirements of this government and report back on that basis. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Could the Minister please tell me where to find that information? Thank you.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would refer the Member to our Grants and Contributions Annual Report. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Can the Minister tell us when that was last filed? Is it up to date for the previous fiscal year? Thank you.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks to the Minister for his answers. Nothing further.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to stay under the item Mackenzie Valley development contribution. It is noticed that the contribution amount has been reduced by just over $300,000. Can the department give an explanation for that reduction? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The amount of funding to the Aboriginal Pipeline Group has been reduced by $250,000. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you. I appreciate that. Can I get clarification on what MPR stands for in MPR contributions various? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you. Is it safe to suggest that the reason why there is no contribution being made in the last two years is because of the downturn in the oil and gas industry? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The money primarily went for contributions with universities for various research projects and also the budget has been moved into the contract section. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kieron Testart Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I asked the Minister some questions about the Mining Incentive Program the other day. We have heard in several statements it is a great program that generates a lot of economic activity in the exploration sector. I also asked if this amount would be increased. I note that it is staying the same in this budget, and the ministry indicated that the long-term plan for the Mining Incentive Program is to expand it. Can the Minister just confirm that that is the department's perspective of this very successful program? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. That is our expectation. We would hope to aspire to that before the end of the term of the 18thLegislative Assembly.
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Kieron Testart Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Was this program modelled on the Yukon's program? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We share information and adopt best practices, and we felt it was successful in the Yukon so it should be successful here as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I just would like to go back to the Mackenzie Valley development contribution of $400,000. I believe I heard the Minister say that we're spending $100,000 for offices and salary and so on. What's the other $300,000 for then? Thanks. Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Primarily for helping build business capacity in the Aboriginal Governments, Aboriginal capacity building and community consultations, as well as resource pre-development program. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So this extra $300,000, does that go to the Aboriginal pipeline group or does it to go to individual Aboriginal Governments upon application or how does -- what's it used for -- sorry, who can access it and how? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
CHAIRPERSON (Mr. McNeely Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Minister.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's application base. It's available to Aboriginal Governments, Aboriginal businesses, Aboriginal businessman. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Like a previous colleague speaking, I'm not sure why we continue to support the Aboriginal Pipeline Group when we've actually wound down our own office in Hay River, but in any event I'll just leave that as a comment. I did want to ask, though, about Canadian Zinc Socio-economic agreement. There's $30,000 there and is that money that we contribute to the company or what is that money actually for? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. That money is part of the socio-economic agreement that we negotiated with Canadian Zinc and it is money that we spend to meet with the communities. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the answer. The description talks about a Socio-economic advisory committee, so that money is used to support GNWT staff then to attend these committee meetings, is that what it's used for? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The mine is not in operation so this is for preparatory work to set up an advisory committee when the mine is up and running. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. As I understand it, the property is basically sort of in care and maintenance. Do we actually expect to spend this money this year if there's not much happening at the site? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Like we want to do, we are trying to anticipate and work with the communities to help build capacity, so when the project goes ahead they'll be ready and we'll be ready, and it would work in the best interests if the communities. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the response. The Diavik Socio-Economic Agreement funding of $50,000: it was my understanding that the company had done work to do away with the Diavik Community Advisory Board, is that body still working and if so can the Minister or staff tell me whether that board is still functioning? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Member is correct. The board is no longer in operation, but in lieu of it we meet with the communities with regards to Diavik. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So I'm just trying to understand this a little bit better. So the money appears in the contribution section, so to me that sort of indicates that we're giving the money out to a third party, but what I hear the Minister saying is that the money's actually used to support GNWT staff going to meetings. Am I misinterpreting or misunderstanding this in some way? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Archibald
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The money is for the purposes of implementation of the socio economic. The Member is correct that the Diavik Community Advisory Board is not in existence anymore. In lieu of that, as the Minister stated, we meet with communities. This money represents contributions to the communities to prepare for those meetings, to host the meetings in their community, et cetera. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the answer. I think I understand much better now what the funding's actually used for. So I just want to move on to the Mining Incentive Program. Do we actually have any way to measure how effective this money has been in say the discovery of new properties? Have any of the properties that are being explored as a result of this program, have any of them actually gone into production? How do we evaluate the effectiveness of the investment that's made here? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Right now we primarily evaluate it or based on the -- as we said, we spent a dollar, we get the industry to spend -- it's resulted in the industry spending $2.7. We've only had this program going for two years, so it's too early for it to result in having a brand new mine developed. It is bringing in money for exploration which is the backbone of mining. The recipients have to provide the reports and in our prospectors grub stake, two prospectors have sold projects to junior mining companies. That will certainly be another indicator of success. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. That sounds helpful. I'm just wondering though, does the department think it would be a good idea to develop some sort of criteria or way to measure the success of this program? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe the fact that it's oversubscribed and the fact that it's resulted in increased spending and as an industry we already have a guideline that for every dollar you spend on geoscience it results in $5 on exploration and when it goes to development it's about $150. We think that the criteria we have now is sufficient. We only have $400,000, so we don’t want to spend a lot of money developing additional criteria. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Recognizing time, I'll allow one more question there, Mr. O'Reilly.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
I think I'll pass for now, Mr. Chair, because I've got some other things I'd like to explore on this page. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Michael Nadli Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to get some clarity questions. So my question relates to on page 244 it says, "client service and community relations," and I think last year it was a $1,109,000 and it's decreased to $1,055.000. Maybe the Minister could explain just the reduction and just explain the nature of this initiative plans for this and community relations, whether it's focused strictly on industry or is it as compared to the regulatory participation that we expect from a First Nations group? Mahsi.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is an area where we work with industry and also the communities and we provide a liaison function and also I guess a navigator kind of role I would think. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Michael Nadli Deh Cho
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm familiar with another initiative that's very similar in its nature. It's called the Interim Resource Management Assistance Program where non-claiming groups could access funding to participate in regulatory processes, whether it's an environmental assessment or -- participate in the liason with a lot of groups across the North. How does that compare with the IRMA Program, the client service and the community relations? Mahsi.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My recollection of an IRMA is that it was a cost-shared program between the Government of Canada and the Government of Northwest Territories on a two-third/one-third basis, and it was application based and funding was provided directly to the Aboriginal Government that applied for the money. So this is different than the fact that it's working between industry and the Aboriginal communities. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I do have a couple of areas I want to explore and I think I'm going got probably run out of -- or we're going to have to have dinner soon, but the contribution to the Chamber of Mines that’s shown on this page, is that core funding that's provided to this Chamber of Mines? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. If it's not core funding, what is the funding actually for? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. ITI's contribution to the Chamber of Mines is a decision that's made yearly and it's one that provides funding to assist with ITI in implementing the Mineral Development Strategy. We see it as funding as not an operating subsidy. It's not used for salaries or for rent. Funding is tailored on a yearly basis and is largely a partnership with the chamber to deliver on promotional efforts in support of marketing the Northwest Territories to the resource industry and help promote the Northwest Territories as an attractive and high potential destination for investment dollars. Events include the NWT information session, one half day at PDAC which is a Prospectors & Developers Association of Canada, invests in CanNor Seminar, at PDAC, participation at PDAC, and also the Cordilleran Roundup.
ITI also partners with the chamber to do targeted research on a case-by-case basis. One such example was the recently releases Abacus Mining Survey that was a public opinion poll on mining in the Northwest Territories. This survey serves as a baseline from which we can assess our report card on how the Northwest Territories is doing on many subjects such as regulatory, socio-economic, and environmental. Funding also assists in their capacity to engage in reviews of legislation and regulations such as ongoing reviews of the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act. Funding also works towards education initiatives. Examples include bartering with the Chamber of Mines last fall to complete three successful prospecting courses in Yellowknife, Ndilo, and Behchoko. Fifty participants attended and completed the course.
Student engagement at the Geoscience Forum in Yellowknife where we support education connections so that local students and educators can learn about minerals in the mining industry through hands-on activities and also a career exploration event. The Mineral Development Strategy has funded the transportation for students from Yellowknife, Detah, Ndilo, and Behchoko to attend this event. Eleven classes from grade four to six attended in 2015. The chamber also assisted and participated in the Regional Mineral Strategy Workshop and is involved ongoing in the future delivery of workshops. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. We're going to keep going? It's after 6:00 or...? Okay. The last of the questions I have is where would I find funding for the Mineral Industry Advisory Board? Is that in this section? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's not under the contributions, it's under O and M. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I presume that we're in the right section here, so what's the funding for the Mineral Industry Advisory Board? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The maximum allotted is $10,000, the amount utilized has averaged around $5,000. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'm just wondering if the Minister can explain what the difference is between the Mineral Industry Advisory Board and the Chamber of Mines. I understand the membership might be different, but can you explain now the function of these two organizations is different? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Mineral Advisory Board provides high-level advice to myself and the chamber deals with mining on an issue-by-issue basis. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So I guess though in some cases the Minister's getting advice from the same people? Because probably some of the same people involved in the Chamber are also involved with the Mineral Industry Advisory Board? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. There are some members that are on both, but they're essentially different and they're not carbon copies of both boards. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So can anybody tell me how often does this Mineral Industry Advisory Board meet, is it once, twice a year, and have they actually met in the last year? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We meet at least once a year. I think this year, because they had a new minister, we were going to attempt to meet this summer as well. So we met in January, and we are looking at meeting again. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I understand that the membership of the board is just people from the mining industry, and that's good. But has the department looked at a way to try to broaden representation of other public interests on the board, including say Aboriginal governments or environmental organizations to just provide a bit more representative set of advice to the Minister? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. The Chamber has a number of Aboriginal business people, Aboriginal miners on their board. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Recognizing the time, I shall call for a break for dinner.
---SHORT RECESS
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'll see if I do any better on a full belly. I wanted to go back to the Mineral Industry Advisory Board. I think I heard the Premier say that there were Aboriginal members of the Chamber of Mines, and that-- I'm not quite sure what the connection is to the Mineral Industry Advisory Board because I was asking about whether the department was prepared to consider broadening the membership of the Mineral Industry Advisory Board to include other interests, including Aboriginal governments and environmental organizations and so on.
So can I ask again of the Minister: is the department prepared to look at broadening the representation on the Mineral Industry Advisory Board? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We do have an Aboriginal member on the Mineral Industry Advisory Board. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. That's helpful to know, but is the Minister prepared to expand the board to make it more representative of other public interests, environmental organizations or tourism or whatever? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We'll review the terms of reference of the Mineral Industry Advisory Board and see if it falls within the parameters, but we're always prepared to look at all boards. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, and I have looked at the terms of reference for the Mineral Industry Advisory Board and I believe that there were concerns actually raised in this House in the previous Assembly about the need to make it more representative of various interests. So I'm just wondering when the Minister might be able to consider that and get back to Standing Committee on Economic Development and Environment. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll take the Member's request under advisement. We have other boards as well that fulfills the functions that the Member has raised so we'll see how we can best serve the interests of the people in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate that commitment from the Minister. I guess what's driving my concern or issue here is that the department is committed to develop a Mineral Resources Act, and that's something that I support as well, but there are some, I think, fundamental issues that are going to arise during the development of that legislation such as whether we want to continue the free entry system as the preferred or the only method of managing mineral resources. I'm just a little bit concerned that the Minister would be getting advice on that legislation primarily from the Mineral Industry Advisory Board which is made up of the mining industry, and I'm just worried about the fairness of that sort of process. That’s why I'm raising these issues. I'd like to ask the Minister if the Mineral Industry Advisory Board is going to be giving the Minister advice on drafting and putting together this legislation? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's one body not the only body that will give us advice. We'll go out for a broad range of input so I don't see it as only relying on one body. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I don't want to prolong this. I appreciate the commitment from the Minister. So would the department be prepared to provide its communications plan on how it's going to put together the Minerals Resources Act to the Standing Committee on Economic Development and Environment? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We work very closely with the committees and I fully expect that we will share that information. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Further questions? Recognizing none. Moving on. Page 246: Industry, Tourism and Investment, minerals and petroleum resources, active positions. Any questions? Mr. O'Reilly.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. There’s some significant changes in the staffing levels. Can the Minister or staff explain generally what's going on and how many of those positions are vacant? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Seventeen positions reductions, 12 are filled, five are vacant. I provided this information the other day, but I'm pleased to present it again. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I've probably been asleep at the wheel for a while here, but 17 and 12, it looks to me like there's a difference here of 11 positions in this section. Can the Minister tell me what happened with those 11 positions, generally what they are, and whether they were vacant or not? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Mr. Chair, seven headquarters positions; two South Slave positions; two Inuvik positions; one administrative assistant, vacant; one manager petroleum royalty administration, filled; one manager industrial initiatives, filled; one industrial initiatives analyst, vacant; two mining recorder clerks, filled; two district geologists vacant-- one vacant, one transfer of a mineral DS position to MPR, vacant; two South Slave positions for Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Petroleum office; filled two, transfer of marketing promotions to MPR from corporate management; filled two Inuvik positions; one oil and gas offshore specialist, filled; one rights administrator, vacant. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Questions? Seeing none. We shall go back to activity total on page 244: Industry, Tourism and Investment, minerals and petroleum resources, operations expenditure summary. Activity total: $16,078,000.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Daniel McNeely
Agreed. Okay, moving on. Page 249: Industry, Tourism and Investment, tourism and parks, operations summary, expenditure. We shall move on detail starting with page 249. Industry, Tourism and Investment, tourism and parks, grants, contributions and transfers. Questions? Recognizing Mr. Vanthuyne.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the convention bureau, under the description it notes that "the contributions to NWT Tourism to establish a convention bureau for the NWT." I know that the convention bureau aspect of NWT Tourism is having some very positive effects on the Northwest Territories. That department, amongst other things, does a lot of work as it relates to promoting the North and then attracting outside associations to host their AGMs and the like here. I just wonder if this is funding that we'll see on an ongoing basis? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
I appreciate that we're going to see this money indefinitely. Thank you.
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Kieron Testart Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Could I have more detail about the convention bureau, what's planned with that initiative? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess I should clarify. MLA Vanthuyne said it would be indefinitely; I wouldn't go as far to say it will be indefinitely, it will go till 2018-19. The Convention Bureau works with regions and communities to determine their capacity, what capacity they have to host conventions, and we try to match up whatever interests there are for conventions in the Northwest Territories so that other communities besides Yellowknife also have opportunities and other regions also have the potential to host conventions. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kieron Testart Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. For clarification, does the convention bureau also do work in Yellowknife or is it primarily focused on the communities? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
It does work on behalf of all the communities in the Northwest Territories, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
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Kieron Testart Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I noticed community tourism, infrastructure, remains at $100,000. Does the department have an inventory of the project that it supports and can it share what that money went towards in 2015-16? Thank you.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, we have that information and it's in our annual grants and contributions report and we can provide that information to the Member or I could read it out for him right now if that's what he wants. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kieron Testart Kam Lake
I can review the report, Mr. Chair, thank you. I note one of the complaints I guess or criticism of our otherwise spectacular and ever growing tourism market is there's not enough things to do in our communities. I think this contribution could bear a lot of fruit in developing our tourism market by having more attractions and drawing more people in. Has the department taken a look at how to use this funding to kind of produce more tourism draws in our communities and get more people coming?
For instance, just going back to the convention bureau, our convention space is rather limited; we don't have a convention centre in Yellowknife, for example, so it somewhat caps our ability to bring in large venues and national organizations who want to have their conventions here. Has the department taken a look at using this funding, or perhaps even increasing this funding to develop more capacity for tourism support in our communities? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We provide $3.3 million to NWT Tourism, and we're always looking at ways to improve our program. If building community infrastructure-- sort of if you build it they will come, generally we take the approach of having tourism products developed. We have a large focus on Aboriginal tourism right now and certainly the community tourism infrastructure is fully subscribed as well. Whatever opportunities we have to increase our tourism products, we try to take advantage of that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kieron Testart Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the Minister for his comments. Can I get the total amount that it's subscribed by in dollar figures, if the department has that handy? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We'd have to dig that up. We just have the actual that was awarded for 2014-15 right now. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Sorry, there was-- we provided $225,000 in 2014-15. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kieron Testart Kam Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I note that the-- in our previous discussion, the Mining Incentive Program we have kind of a hard number that it-- $400,000 is given out but I think it's $1.2 million that it's oversubscribed by. That's like the total amount of activity it could contain. That's kind of the figure I'm looking for, just a sense of how many dollars are trying to access this fund and flow out of it. I take it that might not be readily available so I'm content to receive that from the department at a later date.
My last question is about the Northern Frontier Visitors Centre. The infrastructure of that building is going through some tough times right now. Is the department looking at working with the centre to repair that damage and stabilize the building through some of its contribution funding? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are not involved with the owners of the building, but we have been working with the Northern Frontier Visitor Centre and providing assistance in kind, and also helping them move through information gathering steps so that they could be in a position where they can evaluate the full extent of the problem and the cost required to address the situation.
Ultimately, our government will try to support the Northern Frontier Visitor Association. Any steps or any next steps or further steps on funding decisions will have to be made on the basis of solid information. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. There's a reduction on the tourism diversification program, and I'm wondering if the Minister and his staff can explain that? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, under--so we are still looking at 249, contributions. There is tourism diversification program. There's a reduction from 2015-16, and can the Minister or staff explain the reduction? It appears in mains. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is an area where the department commits to restoring the full budget of the tourism product, diversification and marketing programs for 2016-17. An ongoing fiscal year subject to budget approval of the Legislative Assembly, the department will restore $250,000 to the program that was proposed as a budget reduction and meet the department's reduction commitments from other program areas of ITI. The funding will be found through and across the board O and M reduction. The activities, the directorate policy legislation, communication and diamond secondary industry office. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I don't really understand the process here very well, but are we approving a different amount in the vote, or do the mains get reprinted or what? I'm sorry. I just don't understand because I'm new. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you. The total amount does not change, but the tourism diversification program will be put back to, made whole, I guess is the best way to put it, and that funding will come from other O and M. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the commitment by the Minister. I'm just trying to understand, are we still voting on the number that's listed over on page 246? Does that change in some amount, or I just don't understand how this is going to appear. Presumably, the departmental budget overall is not changing, but we're talking about--the Minister talked about some internal reallocations. How does that show up in the mains? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Maybe the Finance Minister can answer in more detail, but my understanding is that the total will not change. The Main Estimates have already been printed, so we can't change that. When the budgets are loaded up, it will reflect the fact that this tourism product diversification marketing budget will be made whole, and when the budgets are loaded, the $250,000 will come from other O and M and be reduced by that amount and added into tourism program. Perhaps through you, Mr. Chair, the Minister of Finance may have further detail to eliminate this issue. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thank you, Mr. Minister. I will allow the Finance Minister to clarify your question. Mr. O'Reilly. It's 249, if it's the willingness of the Finance Minister to add clarity.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the Minister's comment is absolutely correct. The $250,000 that the Member speaks of, the numbers in here, the overall budget for the department won't change, and the Minister has made a commitment, and I think we made a written commitment to reinstate that $250,000, and they will find the money, as the Minister explained, in some other areas of the department. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Look, I'm not questioning in any way the commitment on the part of the Premier and the Finance Minister to do this, so I'll be quiet about this, but at the end of the day, I still want to sort of understand how, whether we're sort of voting on these amounts or how does it get reprinted or how does it show up at the end of the day.
I don't question the commitment in any way. This has been the subject of some ongoing discussions, and really appreciate the work that the Minister of Finance, the Minister of ITI's undertaken, so I'm just trying to understand how it shows up in a printed version, but I'll go and ask the Minister or staff afterwards rather than tie up the time tonight, but I do appreciate the commitment and the responses, and in no way am I questioning their sincerity or anything on this, just trying to understand operationally how it works, but I can do that offline. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Further questions. Seeing none. We shall move on to detail on page 250, Industry, Tourism, Investment, tourism and parks, active positions. Questions? Seeing none. Moving on, page 251, Industry, Tourism, Investment, lease commitments. Any questions? Recognizing Ms. Green.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'd like to hear from the Minister some detail on the future lease payments. So if this office is winding down, for how much longer is the government going to pay the lease on this office? Thank you.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The business of government continues. Other positions are being moved into those offices, and the government will continue to utilize that space. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just keeping in continuity with our procedures, I'm wondering if through you, Mr. Chair, are we going to actually give approval on the tourism and parks portion of the ITI budget? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
The Chair Daniel McNeely
Yes. We're going to go back to that activity total afterwards, and 251. Questions on 251. Seeing none. We shall go back to 248, Industry, Tourism, Investment, tourism and parks, Operations Expenditures Summary, Activity Total, $14,283,000. Agreed. Page 252, Industry, Tourism, Investment, Northwest Territories environmental studies research fund. Questions. Mr. O'Reilly.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. As I understand it, this is something that was set up as a result of requirements in the federal legislation. We simply mirrored it, but I have some questions about how that was done and so on. I want to start with the revenue line here. There's a big drop between 2014-15 and 2015-16. Can someone explain what that drop is all about? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. The money came from the feds, and there's been no activity whatsoever, so it's down to zero. The money is provided by industry as well normally. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Just so I understand it, this was some money that was given to us for devolution implementation as a pot or something, and now we've spent it all? Is that what I'm hearing here, Mr. Chair? Thanks.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It wasn't--the money was collected from the oil and gas industry that required to put the money into this environmental studies research fund, and normally, it would--there was a going concern, there would be additional funding going into the revolving or research fund, but the fact that there's no activity in the oil and gas sector, so there's no industry putting any money into it. The money that had 974, I'll ask through you, Mr. Chair, I'll ask Ms. Archibald to provide further detail. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Archibald
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. The Member is correct that the environmental study's research fund was established under the Petroleum Resources Act. It's a special-purpose fund, and the purpose is to provide funding to environmental and social studies designed to assist in decision-making processes related to oil and gas exploration, development, and production. It was exactly mirrored as was a requirement under the devolution agreement, so we did not make any changes. It was formally established in September of last year.
Just to clarify a point, the monies represented here are money from industry that are derived from levies on them, and the levy is calculated on the basis of the size or the acreage of their interest holders. Part of the reason that there has been a decline is that the amount of levy is tied directly to the amount of--the dollar value of research proposals that we receive, and so for this year, the amount, the total dollar value of the proposals was $100,000, and the levy was established and divided up amongst the oil and gas interests on that basis to support those. This year, it's four projects related to looking at the effects on caribou and water. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate the answer. I'm somewhat familiar with the fund and what it does. We're not actually collecting any revenues this year to support work under the fund. Is that what I'm getting here, Mr. Chair? Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. As I understand, I think there is, though, some sort of a research agenda or a strategic plan or whatever for research under this fund, so there's still more work to be done. We haven't been collecting any money to do it. Is that where we're at, Mr. Chair? Thank you.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, there is an annual plan. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I understand that the department is going to be looking at the Petroleum Resources Act and reviewing that during the 18thAssembly. Is there any plan to look at the composition of the board and try to make the process a little bit more open and transparent? I don't think there's actually like a public call for proposals, and the board could probably use a little bit more public interest representation. Are those matters that the department will be looking at in reviewing the Petroleum Resources Act? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, we're planning to look at it. There is a public Member at large on the board, and there is a public call for proposals, but all of those things will be looked at as we go forward in reviewing the different oil and gas legislation that we talked about earlier. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the commitment of the department to look at trying to make the fund a little more transparent and accountable and representative of the public interest. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thanks, Mr. O'Reilly. Questions. Seeing none, we should move on to page 253, Industry, Tourism, Investment, work performed on behalf of others. Questions. Mr. O'Reilly.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. There's three line items here for Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada. I guess these were different contribution agreements. I just want to understand whether the funding is wound down for these arrangements, was the work actually done for each of them? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The first one was funding received for the Canadian Arctic Research Station. The second, INAC one, was funding received under the Strategic Investment and Northern Economic Development Program for geoscience research projects, and the third one is Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada funding received for the Canol Trail Wire Clean-up. I don't think the CHARS project is finished yet, so there may be some funding identified there.
The SIGNet had money. We have applied, it's application-based, and that's generally applied through CanNor. Also, the Canol Trail Wire Clean-up, that's a responsibility of Indigenous and Northern Affairs program. They may or may not provide -- in the past, or last year, they provided funding to allow us to work with the Sahtu Community to do some work on cleaning up the Canol Trail Tourism Project. Also, geoscience was a large part of the SIGNet funding, which was a second INAC bracket there. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So these funding arrangements, they're finished. I guess, in particular, I was curious about the Canol Trail work. Has that actually been completed? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess the Sahtu Secretariat and the people in the Sahtu have been waiting a long time for the land for the Canol Trail Tourism Project to be made available to them so that they can start promoting it. Until it's cleaned up, that's still the responsibility of the federal government. Our understanding is that additional funding will be provided this year, and quite a significant number, but we couldn't include it because the arrangements have not been concluded. We only put it on the books once we have a signed off agreement. So until that happens, it would be inappropriate for me to put out a figure. We are expecting some more funding in that regard. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, I've been out hiking on parts of the Canol Trail in the past and have myself actually become entangled with wire. So I really want to make sure that work gets done and that it's safe for tourists and local people to go out there. I appreciate the efforts of the Department in getting that work done and making the trail an important tourism attraction. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
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Bob McLeod Yellowknife South
I was going to say it's a good thing you didn't have horns, but it might be taken the wrong way, so...
---Laughter
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
The Chair Daniel McNeely
Questions? Seeing none, we shall return to 231. Industry, Tourism and Investment, total department $59,870,000, and we are agreed that the consideration of the Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment is completed.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Some Hon. Members
Agreed
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The Chair Daniel McNeely
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Thanks to your witnesses for appearing before us. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses from the Chamber. Now we'll begin consideration with the Department of Justice. I will turn to the Minister responsible for the Department of Justice for opening comments.
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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Louis Sebert Thebacha
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm pleased to present the 2016-2017 Main Estimates for the Department of Justice. Overall, the Department's estimate proposes a decrease of just over $3.4 million representing a decrease of 2.67 per cent over the 2015-2016 Main Estimates. The Department's budget continues to balance the need to ensure effective frontline program delivery while supporting the Government's objective of limiting expenditure growth to ensure the long-term sustainability of the fiscal framework.
The estimates represent the work of the Department for the administration of a justice system that is open, accessible and responsive to the needs of the people it serves. We are presenting a budget that continues to be prudent and responsible. Accordingly, we are presenting just over $4 million in expenditure reductions and reducing $383,000 through sunsetting programs, revenue has increased by six per cent or $849,000 mainly due to fees administered by the Legal Registry's Division.
These budget estimates represent $874,000 in forced growth costs, primarily arising from increases under the Territorial Police Services Agreement. The department will continue to meet the priorities of this Assembly as described in the mandate. We will continue to support families when they are in conflict or personal crisis. The Parenting after Separation Workshop is now being offered over the internet to reach families throughout the Northwest Territories.
The Family Mediation Program is offered via telephone for parents looking for support. We are working to make information about these programs more accessible. We will strengthen initiatives and partnerships to prevent and reduce family violence through a multi-pronged approach. This includes the promotion of training and education on the tools available under the Protection against Family Violence Act, such as emergency protection orders, as well as under the Residential Tenancies Act to provide victims of domestic violence with more options.
Additionally, work is being done with our partners to examine the feasibility of expanding the Domestic Violence Treatment Option Court beyond the two communities currently served. In addition to these actions, we are committed to ensuring men are receiving the most appropriate healing programming to help them to address violent behaviours toward their domestic partners.
We're improving access to justice in the Northwest Territories by expanding community legal outreach programs to make family law duty counsel services available to assist self-represented people for their first court appearances. As well, we will be expanding public legal education on programs and services available so people will know how to access the help they need.
Through these supports, families and individuals will be empowered to work towards successful resolutions, allowing them to return to more constructive and healthier alternatives. We will be supporting the RCMP and our communities as they work together as partners to prevent and respond to violence. Through policing priorities that speak to the unique needs of each and every community action plans are put in place that will allow further transparency and accountability. In order to improve our social response to crime reduction, we will be examining and analyzing the information we learn from these plans as well as other research work that is underway with our territorial partners in the Yukon and Nunavut.
We will continue to provide safe and secure custody of offenders. As the Assembly has identified, programs need to be culturally appropriate. There also needs to be a focus on rehabilitation programs that support reintegration back into communities. However, the causes of crime extend well beyond the confines of corrections facilities. We will work in collaboration as a government as we address the socioeconomic factors that are at the root of crime, including addictions and mental health issues, literacy and education rates, and poverty and homelessness.
We will ensure that we are able to support government activities by building a proper base of legislation and regulations to support a strong and sustainable territory for the future. As part of this support, we are currently engaged in a review of the Access to Information and the Protection of Privacy Act and are actively working on the implementation of a framework to ensure privacy protections in the Act will be consistently applied across the GNWT.
This concludes my opening remarks. I welcome your comments and questions. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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The Chair Daniel McNeely
The motion is in order, non-debatable. All in favour? All opposed?
---Carried