Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Thompson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am glad that the Minister figures that a 33 percent increase and a 50 percent increase, regardless of the fees, is modest and minor. I mean, for people out there who are house poor, that is an impact on them. Did the Minister or the department look at averaging or increasing it gradually instead of just one lump sum? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister Sebert.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. A gradual increase, perhaps, would have been sensible if it had been raised every year, but it hasn't been. It hasn't been raised for many years, and going back to the example I gave, on a $400,000 purchase, $300,000 mortgage, $350 is not a terribly significant sum.

As I say, the banks have raised their rates. If they raise their rates 1 percent on a $300,000 mortgage, that will cost you $15,000 over the five years. $350? I think that is an entirely justifiable increase, far less than we had originally contemplated. We heard from the people, we heard from the Members, and therefore, we came back with what I submit is a reasonable increase. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Thompson.

Thank you. It just blows my mind. I am glad that he thinks it is reasonable. I am glad that he thinks it is moderate. I am glad that he thinks it is minor. When he talks about getting a mortgage, well, you lock into a mortgage for a period of time, unless you don't want to lock into it, depending on the market. He said we didn't do it for 20 years. Well, why are people being punished now? Could we not look at gradually implementing it? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister Sebert.

I am not sure that I accept the proposition that all tax is punishment. I mean, after all, this money isn't being wasted. It goes into our coffers to support many of the programs that Justice and many of the other departments have. I mean, as far as affordability, the increase in mortgage rates of 1 percent has a much more dramatic effect than a $350 one-time cost. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Thompson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are talking apples and oranges. If you want to talk about mortgages, then let's talk mortgages on another day, but we are talking about increasing the fees. The fees are 33 percent and 50 percent on just those two that the Minister talks about. Can the Minister, then, provide us the increases for each of those programs and the percentage? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister Sebert.

Okay. Land transfer for property buys less than $1 million is currently $1.50 per thousand with a minimum fee of $100. It is going to $2. That is a 33 percent increase. Correct. Mortgages, I should go to next, are currently $1 per thousand in most cases, and that will go to $1.50, which is a 50 percent increase. Correct. Again, on the example I gave of the $400,000 house with a $300,000 mortgage, instead of paying $900, you would pay $1,250, an increase of $350.

Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Thompson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will just try to make it real simple. Can the Minister provide us with the information of all the increases that he has talked about with this here with a percentage? Just give it to us. You don't have to tell us the numbers here today, but if you can give us the information for all the things that he is proposing to increase? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister Sebert.

Certainly. I mean, I don't think it is terribly complicated what we are proposing to do here or we are going to do here. I would be quite happy to provide these numbers in writing.

Thank you, Minister Sebert. Next, we have Mr. Vanthuyne.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The concern with this particular matter is not about it even being modest. The first thing is that had we not even raised this here on the floor today, then there would probably have been no disclosure to us that this increase to the cost of living was going to be coming. I mean, clearly, the Minister and the government are very well aware that the idea of the proposed land transfer tax a year ago was not publicly palatable. Simply, this is just a new angle. It is simply a new approach to cash grab. The Minister has indicated that is all this really is. It is just a revenue generator. Really, all you would have to do if you were just seeking to increase some money is just cover off the costs that it takes to administer these land transfers. This is basically a substitute for replacing the land transfer tax that we knew publicly failed.

You know, the Minister might continue to see this as being modest, but what he is failing to see is that the idea of a sugar tax, the forthcoming carbon tax, the airport tax, the lease rates that came out of his other department, Lands, the ongoing power rate increases, that this is another increase to the cost of living. We are a government that says that we stand by reducing the cost of living. This is just another factor that is going to tip somebody to that point where they just cannot afford to live here anymore. "Modest" is not the word that they want to hear. We are a government, along with the federal government and the municipal government, that is responsible for driving up the costs of living. The government, in my view, Mr. Chair, should be embarrassed as it relates to this attempt, this backdoor attempt at trying to hijack those who will disproportionately be penalized for selling residences and/or businesses in market communities. I don't need any further clarification. I know exactly what this is. The department should be ashamed for trying to attempt to put this forward. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Minister Sebert.

This government, all governments, are faced by an insatiable demand for new and better programs. I mean, the money has to come from somewhere. The original land transfer tax we talked about was something that was far greater than this. This generally is a tax that will fall on those who can afford it. Let's be honest with it. These are home buyers. $350, really, I don't consider that a particularly outrageous or unfair increase. Rates have not been changed in 20 years. As I say, a bigger impediment, if there is such a thing, to buying a house might be increasing mortgage rates. I mean, we are constantly being asked for more programs all the time. In my view, this is a modest and reasonable increase in taxation. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Sebert. Mr. Vanthuyne.

Mr. Chair, the way you deal with that is by creating an economy. You attract more people. You build and sell more houses. That will generate more fees to begin with. I mean, we are running into a soft economy. Things are going to be slowing down. We are continually chiseling away at residents' earned dollars. Their take-home net pay is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. At some point, they are just going to reach tipping points where they just can no longer survive. I have said it before: the worst thing about this job is when you get those emails or those phone calls from residents that say, "You know what? I am packing the van as we speak. I can't afford to live here anymore." Yet, we are a government that continues to say that we want to lower the cost of living and that we need to attract more people to the North.

The Minister can continue to say that this is modest and that it is hardly an increase, but that is the same thing the City of Yellowknife says when they propose a new property tax increase. It is the same thing when we say we are going to put up an airport tax fee. It is all just modest, but it is not modest to the homeowners and to the residents of the North when it is slowly chipping away from their income. That is hurting our economy. We are taking away from disposable income.

You know, if we haven't learned anything in the recent months about how dire the situation is out there, then we need to open our eyes. I still stand by the fact that residents need a government that is going to support them in reducing the costs of living. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Just reminding committee we are discussing the budget here. We are getting a little off topic. I will give the Minister a chance to reply.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know it has been a long day. I don't want to repeat the arguments I have previously made. Just going back to say that we are constantly trying to enhance the lives of people in our community. Sometimes, that costs money. There are many programs that are funded by the monies we raise. Again, I feel this modest increase is justifiable. Thank you.