Committee Motion 161-18(3): Standing Committee on Social Development Report on the Review of Bill 40: Smoking Control and Reduction Act and Bill 41: Tobacco and Vapor Products Control Act - Government Response to Recommendations, Carried

In the Legislative Assembly on August 12th, 2019. See this topic in context.

Committee Motion 161-18(3): Standing Committee on Social Development Report on the Review of Bill 40: Smoking Control and Reduction Act and Bill 41: Tobacco and Vapor Products Control Act - Government Response to Recommendations, Carried
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 5931

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Mr. Chair, I move, to the extent it is possible before the dissolution of the 18^th Assembly and for the public record, that the government provide a response to these recommendations, even of a preliminary nature, that the committee may publicly disclose. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5931

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. Thompson. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Page 5931

Some Hon. Members

Question.

Page 5932

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I see nothing further from committee. Does committee agree that this concludes our consideration of Committee Report 23-18(3)?

Page 5932

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5932

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. This concludes consideration of Committee Report 23-18(3). Committee, we have agreed to next consider Bill 40. Committee, you have big grey binders next to your desk where you will find this legislation printed out. If everyone wants to get their big grey binders and turn to number 40. Or it might be sitting on your desk. I am not sure. As long as everyone has the reprinted version of Bill 40, I will ask the Minister responsible for the bill to introduce it. Minister Abernethy.

Page 5932

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to introduce Bill 40: The Smoking and Control Reduction Act. The development of this bill has been the result of significant time and effort by the Department of Health and Social Services and wouldn't have been made possible without the input and contribution from the Standing Committee on Social Development as well as members of the public.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the Standing Committee on Social Development for the time they have taken to ensure that this bill received a comprehensive review. I wish to acknowledge the time and effort members of the public took to develop submissions and share research on the effect of smoking on today's society.

Mr. Chair, smoking is a serious public health concern, and the NWT has one of the highest smoking rates in Canada. The primary purpose of this Bill 40 is to protect the public, particularly children and youth, from a variety of second-hand smoke exposure, including vaping aerosol. To protect the public's health, prohibiting the general act of smoking any substance is considered more effective than trying to distinguish between which product is actually being used.

Bill 40 would repeal the Cannabis Smoking Control Act and replace it with the comprehensive legislation that restricts smoking of any substance in specific public areas to protect the public, deter uptake, and denormalize smoking. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5932

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Minster. I will now turn to the chair of the Standing Committee on Social Development that considered the bill for any opening comments. Mr. Thompson, do you have any opening comments on Bill 40?

Page 5932

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Just quickly, Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the department, their staff, and the Legislative Assembly staff as we worked forward to get this bill and the motions and amendments made. I would like to thank the Minister and his staff and Legislative Assembly staff for great work, as well as committee and the people who did submissions to us. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5932

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minster, do you have witnesses you wish to bring into the Chamber?

Page 5932

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Yes, Mr. Chair, I do.

Page 5932

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Minster. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Welcome to the witnesses. Minster, would you please introduce your witnesses for the record.

Page 5932

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have two different individuals with me; Heather Ruptash, who is the senior policy analyst with the Department of Health and Social Services, and Laura Jeffrey, who is legislative counsel, Department of Justice. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5932

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. I will open the floor to any general comments on the bill. Seeing none, does committee agree that we move into a clause-by-clause review?

Page 5932

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5932

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. We will defer the bill number and title until after consideration of the clauses. There are 31 clauses. Can we take them in groups of five?

Page 5932

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5932

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. As I call out the clauses, if committee agrees, please respond accordingly. If you have comments or questions, please put up your hand, and I will call on you. I will begin calling the clauses. Clauses 1 through 5?

---Clauses 1 through 30 inclusive approved

Page 5932

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Clause 31. Mr. O'Reilly.

Page 5932

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I would like to ask the Minister: when is this bill going to come into force? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Page 5933

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5933

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe that we were asked this question in Committee of the Whole when we did our clause-by-clause, but we are hoping to have it early in the life of the next Assembly, preferably right at the beginning.

Page 5933

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Anything further? Mr. O'Reilly.

Page 5933

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. That's fine that it was done in Committee of the Whole in clause-by-clause. What steps does the department need to put in place to have this come into force? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Page 5933

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5933

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We just need to finalize a number of regulations, but as I said, we are hoping to have that done at the beginning of the next Assembly, after the election.

Page 5933

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I guess that I am worried about the kind of display that is in the Gas Bar at the Co-op here. We have to stop that kind of stuff from happening. That might even be in the next bill, I guess, but the sooner that this could be done, the better, I think, we will all be off. I probably don't have to tell this Minister that. Thanks.

Page 5933

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Anything further? Minister.

Page 5933

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That is why the bill is in front of us. That is what we are hoping to accomplish and do. We want to get this done as badly as the Members want it done, and we will get it done as quickly as we can. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5933

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. I will once again call the clause. Clause 31. Does committee agree?

Page 5933

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5933

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. I will now call the bill number and title: Bill 40, Smoking Control and Reduction Act. Does committee agree?

Page 5933

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5933

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. To the bill as a whole. Does committee agree that Bill 40, Smoking Control and Reduction Act, is now ready for third reading?

Page 5933

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5933

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. Bill 40 is now ready for third reading. Does committee agree that this concludes our consideration of Bill 40?

Page 5933

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5933

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. Thank you to the witnesses and to the Minister. Sergeant-at-Arms, you may escort the witnesses from the Chamber. Committee, we have agreed to next consider Bill 41, Tobacco and Vapour Products Control Act. I will once again turn to the Minister responsible to introduce the bill. Minister Abernethy.

Page 5933

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to introduce Bill 41, the Tobacco and Vapour Products Control Act. As with Bill 40, the development of Bill 41 has been a result of significant time and effort by the Department of Health and Social Services and would not have been possible without the input and contribution from the Standing Committee on Social Development, as well as many members of the public. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Members of the Standing Committee on Social Development for the time that they have taken to ensure that this bill received a comprehensive review. I wish to acknowledge the time and effort that members of the public took to develop submissions and share research.

There are national concerns around tobacco use and the increasing prevalence of vaping products. The primary purpose of Bill 41, the Tobacco and Vapour Products Control Act, is to deter the uptake of tobacco and vaping in the NWT, to encourage individuals to quit using these items, to denormalize smoking, and to prevent early initiation of adolescents to addictive products and substances.

Bill 41 would repeal the existing Tobacco Control Act and replace it with a modern piece of legislation that regulates and restricts access to both tobacco products and vapour products and accessories. This bill would restrict access to these items by raising the legal age of purchase to 19, resulting in consistent framework for regulated substances in the Northwest Territories, including cannabis and alcohol. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5933

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Does the chair of the Standing Committee on Social Development have any opening comments? Mr. Thompson.

Page 5934

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Similar to Bill 40, with Bill 41, we would like to thank the Minister and the department and their staff working with the Legislative Assembly staff. I would also like to thank the committee and people who did their submissions to help us make this a better bill moving forward. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister, do you have witnesses who you would like to bring into the chamber?

Page 5934

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

I do, Mr. Chair.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the chamber. Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses for the record?

Page 5934

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chair. On my left is Heather Ruptash, who is the senior policy analyst at the Department of Health and Social Services, and on my right, Laura Jeffrey, legislative counsel, Department of Justice. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Welcome, again, to the witnesses. General comments on the bill from committee? Mr. O'Reilly.

Page 5934

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. In the Minister's opening remarks, he says that the bill would restrict access to these items by raising the legal age of purchase to 19. Can the Minister or somebody tell me what is the legal age of purchase right now? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister Abernethy.

Page 5934

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Sorry, Mr. Chair. The Member faded out in the last couple words of his question. I want to make sure that I get it right. Can I get him to please repeat it?

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

The Member asked: what is the current legal age of purchase? Minister.

Page 5934

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Eighteen, Mr. Chair.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly.

Page 5934

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

That's okay. Thanks.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Anything further in terms of general comments from committee? Seeing none, does committee agree that we proceed into a clause-by-clause review of the bill?

Page 5934

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. There are 51 clauses. Does committee agree that we consider the clauses as groups of five?

Page 5934

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. I will call out the clauses. If you agree, please respond accordingly. Please turn to page 5 of the bill. Clauses 1 through 5.

---Clauses 1 through 51 inclusive, approved

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Agreed? Thank you, committee. I will return to the bill number and title: Bill 41, Tobacco and Vapour Products Control Act. Does committee agree?

Page 5934

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. To the bill as a whole. Does committee agree that Bill 41 is now ready for third reading?

Page 5934

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. Bill 41 is now ready for third reading. Does committee agree that this concludes our consideration of Bill 41?

Page 5934

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. Thank you to the Minister and to the witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, you may escort the witnesses from the chamber.

[Microphone not on] consideration of these final three items. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

Page 5934

Michael Nadli Deh Cho

Mr. Chair, I wish to declare that I have a financial interest in Bill 54, Standard Interest Rates Statutes Amendment Act, and I will excuse myself from the Chamber during its consideration of Committee of the Whole today. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.

Page 5934

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. Nadli. Committee, I will ask the Minister responsible for Bill 54 to introduce it, and that will be Minister of Finance. Minister McLeod.

Page 5935

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am here to present Bill 54, the Standard Interest Rate Statutes Amendment Act.

Bill 54 would make legislative amendments to adopt a standard interest rate that would be applied to all Government of the Northwest Territories overdue receivables. This proposal would lower the interest rate charged on receivables while linking the interest rate charged to the Canadian economy and monetary policy.

Currently, the interest rate applied under the Financial Administration Act and all taxation legislation varies creating an administratively complex situation leading to confusion for Northwest Territories residents and companies doing business with the GNWT. This legislation will ensure a standard interest rate is applied. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5935

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Minister. I will now turn to the chair of the Standing Committee on Government Operations, the committee that considered the bill for any opening comments that he may have. Mr. Testart.

Page 5935

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Standing Committee on Government Operations concluded its review of Bill 54, Standard Interest Rate Statutes Amendment Act, on August 7, with a public clause-by-clause review held at the Legislative Assembly building.

The committee received submissions from the public. The committee supports the government changes to adopt a standard interest rate that will be applied to all GNWT overdue receivables, and will lower the interest rates currently charged by the GNWT on overdue accounts. Individual Membership may have additional comments or questions as we proceed with consideration of this bill. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5935

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. Testart. Minister, would you like to bring witnesses into the Chamber?

Page 5935

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Page 5935

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses for the record.

Page 5935

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Chair. To my right, I have Mr. David Stewart, deputy minister of Finance. To my left, I have Cherie Jarock, who is legislative counsel. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5935

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Welcome to the witnesses. I will open the floor to general comments on the bill. Any general comments on this bill? Mr. Testart.

Page 5935

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Over the course of our review of this legislation and hearing from other Members, honourable Members, some of who were Members of the committee and others who participated in some of our discussions around Bill 54, it became apparent that there was a lot of land tenure uncertainty in the Northwest Territories. Although this bill doesn't directly affect that, the consequences of overdue tax arrears on unpaid land taxes is a live issue in many of our communities, in particular for Indigenous peoples and our smaller communities.

Although this bill sets the standard interest rate, it does little to affect those overdue accounts, many of which are directly impacting the livelihood and the peace of mind of many residents. Some of these decisions that were made by the federal government in transferring certain lands to the GNWT have resulted in these arrears. We are considering other pieces of legislation that address land, but in this case, there are still many overdue accounts, and I felt it prudent to raise this concern because, again, it is a concern of many of our residents, particularly those in smaller communities. I think that it is important that the GNWT carefully consider its response to these overdue accounts and ensure that it can provide some relief to historically large sums of arrears and debt owing to people who oftentimes did not make the decision to inherit that land, to possess that tenure, and have been charged as a result.

It is more of a comment. I know that this is something that the Minister is aware of and the department is aware of, but I think that it is important to put on the public record. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5935

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Further general opening comments to the bill? Seeing none, does committee agree that we move to our clause-by-clause review?

Page 5935

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5935

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. We will defer the bill number and title until after consideration of the clauses. Committee, please turn to page 1 of the bill. I will call each clause individually. Clause 1. Does committee agree?

---Clauses 1 through 6 inclusive approved

Page 5935

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. I will now call the bill number and title: Bill 54, Standard Interest Rates Statutes Amendment Act. Does committee agree?

Page 5935

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5935

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. To the bill as a whole. Does committee agree that Bill 54, Standard Interest Rates Statutes Amendment Act, is now ready for third reading?

Page 5935

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5935

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. Bill 54 is now ready for third reading. Does committee that this concludes our consideration of Bill 54?

Page 5936

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5936

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. Thank you to the Minister, and thank you to the witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, you may escort the witnesses from the chamber. Committee, we have agreed to next consider Bill 57, An Act to Amend the Employment Standards Act. I will turn to the Minister responsible for the bill to introduce it. Minister Cochrane.

Page 5936

Caroline Cochrane Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to be here today to discuss Bill 57, An Act to Amend the Employment Standards Act. The primary objective of the Employment Standards Act is to ensure protection for workers by providing minimum standards of employment. The amendments put forward in the bill strengthen worker protection by enhancing parental leave and creating new types of leave for family caregivers and those experiencing family violence.

The parental leave changes in this bill will allow workers to take longer, unpaid parental leaves, providing job protection at this very important time in their lives. When combined with pregnancy leave, a worker could take up to a year and a half off to care for their newborn baby, which is six months longer than is currently protected in the act. Employees who share the leave with their partner are eligible for an additional eight weeks of leave, encouraging parents to share the benefit between them. A longer period of parental leave allows employees who are eligible for federal parental EI benefits to access the new extended parental EI benefits and EI Parental Sharing Benefit and take full advantage of a longer period of leave.

This bill also allows more workers to take time off work to care for family members in times of need. It creates a new family caregiver leave to care for family members who are critically ill or injured, and it extends compassionate care leave for end-of-life care by an additional 19 weeks. For both of these types of leave, the bill expands the definition of "family member" so that more workers can provide care to family when it is needed, regardless of their blood relationship.

Finally, the bill takes the significant and important step of creating family violence leave, a new type of leave in the Northwest Territories. This will provide a combination of paid and unpaid leave to support workers in responding to different types of family violence situations. Workers may be entitled to time off work to seek medical attention, attend counselling, relocate, or attend legal appointments. Introducing family violence leave is an important part of protecting workers in times of need.

These amendments align with the Government of Canada's changes to the Employment Insurance program and the Canada Labour Code and offer employees the flexibility to address personal situations while maintaining their employment status.

The department engaged stakeholders on the proposed amendments through stakeholder interviews and an online survey. Thoughtful and positive feedback was received from residents, business, labour, and community organizations across the Northwest Territories. A "what we heard" report is available on the ECE website.

I would like to recognize the hard work of the Members of the Standing Committee on Social Development during the review of Bill 57. These proposed amendments support our Northwest Territories workforce in navigating important and oftentimes challenging moments in life by strengthening job security during time away from work. Mahsi cho, Mr. Chair.

Page 5936

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Minister. I will now turn to the chair of the Standing Committee on Social Development, the committee that reviewed the bill, for any opening comments. Does the chair have any opening comments? Mr. Thompson.

Page 5936

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Standing Committee on Social Development concluded its review of Bill 57, An Act to Amend the Employment Standards Act, on August 8, 2019, with a public clause-by-clause review held at the Legislative Assembly building. Committee held a public hearing on Bill 57 in Yellowknife on July 25, 2019. The committee received two commissions, one from the Gwich'in Tribal Council and a joint submission from the NWT Seniors' Society and the Canadian Cancer Society, which also sent a representative to present the submission to the committee at the public hearing.

On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank everybody who provided input on Bill 57. The committee supported the government's efforts to better align with our territorial Employment Standards legislation with the recent changes made to the Canadian Labour Code and the federal Employment Insurance program, as well as to update certain provisions to better protect Northwest Territories workers.

Individual Members may have additional comments or questions as we proceed with the consideration of this bill. We would also like to thank the Minister and the department for the work that they did, as well as all of the people that did provide their commissions and the committee's work. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5937

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Does the Minister wish to bring witnesses into the chamber?

Page 5937

Caroline Cochrane Range Lake

Yes, I do, Mr. Chair.

Page 5937

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the chamber. Minister, please take your seat at the witness table. Minister, please introduce your witnesses for the record.

Page 5937

Caroline Cochrane Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. On my left is Michael Saturnino, who is the director of Labour Development and Standards, and on my right is Kelly McLaughlin, who is the drafter for the legislation. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5937

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Minister. Could you please, once again, slowly for the record, introduce the witnesses? We didn't quite catch the names.

Page 5937

Caroline Cochrane Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. On my left is Mr. Michael Saturnino. He is the director of Labour Development and Standards. On my right is Kelly McLaughlin, and she is the drafter. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5937

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you very much, Minister. Welcome to the witnesses. Committee, I will open the floor to general comments on Bill 57. Do we have any comments from committee? First, I have Ms. Green.

Page 5937

Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is one of these unsung but very important, bills that would make a difference to the lives of many families in the Northwest Territories in a number of different ways, not only for families in extreme circumstances like those facing family violence, but just ordinary working families, especially given the shortage of childcare in the Northwest Territories. This could really be an important incentive to having families staying longer in the Northwest Territories, because they are able to stay at home with their children for a longer period of time, so I am pleased to see the changes that are in this bill, and I will support them. Thank you.

Page 5937

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Next, I have Mr. O'Reilly.

Page 5937

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. The Minister may recall that I raised the issue of how our parental benefits system was out of sync with the federal one. The federal system, they brought their changes in. Originally, I think they were supposed to start July 1^st. They pushed it forward to March, so, under the federal system, they provide EI benefits. The difficulty was that our legislation did not ensure that employers kept the jobs for those people if they went off. I did push to have this bill brought forward in the life of this Assembly, so I want to commend the Minister and her staff for undertaking a very quick turnaround time to get this bill back into the House, and the committee for their work, as well, because we do not want our parents and families to not enjoy the benefits that most other Canadians are getting. I want to also commend the Minister and the department in reviewing the types of leave that are provided under here to include domestic violence leave. I think that is a very important improvement, so I just want to thank and commend the Minister and department for their hard work to get this back into the House so our parents are entitled to the same benefits as everyone else. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Page 5937

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Any further general comments? Seeing none, we will move to a clause-by-clause review of the bill. As usual, we will defer consideration of the bill number and title until after consideration of the clauses. Please turn to page 1. I will call each clause individually. If committee agrees, please respond accordingly.

Page 5937

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Clauses 1 through 12 approved

Page 5937

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Mr. O'Reilly.

Page 5937

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Sorry, I wanted to ask about clause 14, if I may.

Page 5937

The Chair R.J. Simpson

So we have agreed to clause 13?

Page 5937

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5937

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Clause 14. Mr. O'Reilly.

Page 5937

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I had asked the Minister in the clause-by-clause when this bill is going to be coming into force, and I would like to get it on the record in the House, as well. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Page 5937

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5938

Caroline Cochrane Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Basically, the act will come into force, the proper terminology, it comes into force on a day or days to be fixed by order of the Commissioner. The plain language standard of that is that we are working on the regulations right now. We have the orders to get them through. We have the regulations to get the regulations done. This is important. This is critical. This is about children and families and family violence, so I will be pushing my department as hard as possible, and Justice, to try to get it done, so it's a priority for us. I can't say the date, but we are working really diligently to get them done. We need the regulations done, but we are on it. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5938

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Page 5938

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Well, I may not be here to hold the Minister to this, but is there an estimate of a time that the Minister or her staff might be able to give us? The reason I ask this is parents who are looking at or wanting to take some of these types of leave, they are going to want to know when it's going to kick in, so, if I could get some kind of a rough estimate, that would be helpful. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Page 5938

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5938

Caroline Cochrane Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are trying to get this work done right now. It will potentially be early, as early as possible, in the next Assembly if we cannot get it done before. We are rushing it now. We are trying to get it done, but we recognize we only have a couple more weeks to get this work done, or a month, three weeks, so we are trying. The latest it will be, I can't give you an estimate. We are hoping within a couple of months. That is what we are hoping for. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5938

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Anything further from Mr. O'Reilly? Nothing further from Mr. O'Reilly. I will call clause 14.

Page 5938

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5938

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. Please return to the bill number and title. Bill 57, An Act to Amend the Employment Standards Act. Does committee agree?

Page 5938

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5938

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. To the bill as whole.

Page 5938

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5938

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Does committee agree that Bill 57 is now ready for third reading?

Page 5938

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5938

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. Bill 57 is now ready for third reading. Does committee agree that this concludes our consideration of Bill 57?

Page 5938

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5938

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. Thank you to the Minister and to the witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, you may escort the witnesses from the Chamber. Committee, we have agreed to next consider Bill 58, Justice Administration Statutes Amendment Act. I will turn to the Minister responsible for the bill for opening comments and to let the Minister introduce it. Minister Sebert.

Page 5939

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to be here today to discuss Bill 58: Justice Administration Statutes Amendment Act. This bill proposes to make targeted and necessary legislative amendments to acts that support the justice system in the Northwest Territories.

This bill amends various statutes administered by the Department of Justice to:

repeal provisions of An Act to Amend the Children's Law Act and amend the Children's Law Act to establish a recalculation service;
amend the Coroners Act to clarify the responsibilities of the Chief Coroner and coroners in respect of inquests and authorize the release of the body of the deceased if an investigation is complete;
amend the Evidence Act to add provisions in respect of the admissibility of electronic records, and repeal provisions that allow the court to refuse to admit photographic film prints into evidence;
add an updated definition for "prime rate" to the provisions of the Judicature Act relating to prejudgment and post-judgment interest;
add a reference in the Jury Act to exemptions from jury service contained in the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act;
increase fee rates in respect of the registration of certain instruments and caveats under the Land Titles Act;
amend the Public Trustee Act to establish a mechanism for the disposition of unclaimed property;
amend the Residential Tenancies Act to provide for the appointment of a chief rental officer, adjust provisions relating to service and the giving of reasons, and allow regulations to be made in respect of fees for services provided; and
amend the Retirement Plan Beneficiaries Act to provide for the discharge of the administrator of a plan.

Overall, this bill contains a number of measures to improve access to justice and service delivery, which the government believes will significantly assist residents of the Northwest Territories.

Of particular note, the changes to the Children's Law Act will improve the process for recalculating support order amounts payable under both that act and the federal Divorce Act. This will make it easier for parents to obtain changes in the amounts payable under support orders to better reflect current circumstances. These amendments will allow the government to implement this long-awaited service by the end of 2019.

In addition, the proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will help address the processing times for orders. Members of this Assembly and the public have stated many times that the timelines faced by those relying on the hearing process set out in legislation are too long. Contributing to the delays are certain requirements set out in the existing legislation, including the requirement to provide written reasons for every order.

I would be pleased to answer any questions that Members may have regarding Bill 58. Thank you.

Page 5939

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Minister. I will turn to the chair of the Standing Committee on Social Development, the committee that considered the bill, for any opening comments. Mr. Thompson.

Page 5939

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Standing Committee on Social Development concluded its review of Bill 58, Justice Administration Statutes Amendment Act, on July 25, 2019, with a public hearing and clause-by-clause review held at the Legislative Assembly building. Committee received no submissions from the public. The committee supported the government's change to improve access to justice and service delivery, which will assist residents of the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Chair, I would also like to thank the Minister and his department for working with committee and our legislative staff as we move forward. Individual Members may have additional comments or questions as we proceed with consideration of this bill. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5939

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister, do you have witnesses you wish to bring into the chamber?

Page 5939

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Yes, I do.

Page 5939

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the chamber. Minister, please introduce your witnesses for the record.

Page 5939

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chair. To my right is Mr. Mark Aitken, assistant deputy minister of Justice. To my left is Ms. Laura Jeffrey, legislative counsel. Thank you.

Page 5939

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Welcome to the witnesses. I will open the floor to general comments. First, Ms. Green.

Page 5939

Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have made several Member's statements in this House about the problems related to delays in putting out orders after hearings under the Residential Tenancies Act. In particular, I had heard from constituents who are just renting one place of their own, they aren't commercial landlords, and how the wait between the hearing and the order can mean that the money is even more difficult to collect from the non-paying tenant.

I am very happy to see this change. I think that it will make a tangible difference to the people who are, as I say, just landlords of a single property or a couple of properties. This will expedite the service that the public can receive from the rental office.

I am also happy to see the changes in the Children's Law Act. Whenever we can improve legal services for ordinary people who come face-to-face with the law, I think that we should do so, and I am pleased to see that this bill does that. Thank you.

Page 5939

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Ms. Green. Anything further to general comments on this act? Seeing none, does committee agree that we begin our clause-by-clause review?

Page 5939

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Page 5939

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. We will defer the bill number and title until after consideration of each clause. There are 11 clauses stretched out over 26 pages. I will call each clause individually. Clause 1.

---Clauses 1 through 6 inclusive approved

Page 5939

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. Clause 7. Mr. Testart.

Page 5939

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. This clause of the bill brings about changes to the Land Titles Act, and I will just note from the Minister's opening remarks that it will increase fee rates in respect to the registration of certain instruments and caveats under the Land Titles Act. Is this related to the government's proposal for increasing land transfer fees or land transfer taxes? Thank you.

Page 5939

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5940

Louis Sebert Thebacha

It is an increase of fees, of course, but it is not a land transfer tax.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Page 5940

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you. What is the policy rationale for increasing these fees? Thank you.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5940

Louis Sebert Thebacha

The fees had not been changed in many, many years, and we thought it wise to update the fees.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister, when you are done speaking, I would just ask that you let the audio people know so that they can change the mics. Mr. Testart.

Page 5940

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you. For the benefit of people trying to understand these kind of collections of rate adjustments, when do these fees kick in? Is it when people buy and sell property? Thank you.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5940

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Yes, of course. The fees are phased in over three years. The fee could be imposed when you buy a property, certainly, but it could also be imposed when a mortgage is registered. That might not always be when you buy a property; there could be remortgaging, for example. Thank you.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Page 5940

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you. My understanding is that the majority of land transfers or land title transfers take place in the City of Yellowknife. Is that information correct?

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5940

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Yes, that's correct, Mr. Chair. Thanks.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Page 5940

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Following through that logic, then, the majority of the revenues that are raised by this fee increase are going to be paid in majority by Yellowknife land transfers. Is that also correct? Thank you.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5940

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Yes, that's likely. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Page 5940

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. How much revenue is this expected to bring in year 1, year 2, and finally, year 3? Thank you.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5940

Louis Sebert Thebacha

I might ask Mr. Aitken to help me with this, but I believe that it is going to be about $500,000 after the three years.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Page 5940

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Was there any consideration to using these fees as a cost recovery mechanism and keeping them fixed at a rate that is commensurate to the government's costs on administering land title transfers and the other business of land titles, rather than just increasing the fees? Thank you.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5940

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Just to clarify, when I said $500,000, that would be the amount per year that we would be getting after the three years, so it would ramp up to that amount, I assume.

I am not sure if I understood the other portion of the question. I was having a bit of trouble listening. Perhaps it could be repeated?

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Page 5940

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. This fee is a fee, and it is going up because it hasn't gone up in a long time. Was there any consideration given to charging these fees on, basically, a cost recovery basis? It would an exercise where the government would recoup the costs for administering land titles, but it wouldn't be a revenue-generator for government. Was any consideration given to that? Thank you.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5940

Louis Sebert Thebacha

These are fees to increase revenue. There are certain fees charged by the government that are cost recovery. Thank you.

Page 5940

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. The question was whether or not consideration was given to making these cost recovery as opposed to revenue-generating. Minister.

Page 5941

Louis Sebert Thebacha

They were already not cost recovery; they were revenue. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5941

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Page 5941

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you. My understanding is, just in one case of another provincial jurisdiction doing this, in British Columbia, when a land transfer tax or fee was implemented in the 1970s, the explicit policy rationale was for income redistribution. Large home purchases would bring about revenue that could be invested in social programs and policies. I guess the contention I have here is this is a fee that is going to disproportionately affect ratepayers in one part of the territory and largely ignore the state of play in other parts of the territory.

I am not opposed to new taxes as long as they are married to very clear policy objectives. Certainly, I am opposed to anything that raises the question of tax fairness. As I said previously in this House when this proposal was raised, I cannot support a fee increase that is going to disproportionally affect my constituents for the sole policy reason of raising more revenue for the government.

I certainly do not take a problem with taxes on, say, tobacco or alcohol that have a clearly measured outcome. I certainly do not take issue with those kinds of considerations, but here we have the majority of land transfers taking place in the City of Yellowknife, and it's a fee increase. It is $.5 million that Yellowknifers will provide in revenue to the GNWT.

We have already had changes to airport fees which amounts to a tax, if nothing less, and other initiatives. What I hear door-to-door from my riding of Kam Lake is that people already are concerned about the cost of living, are not seeing that cost go down, and this is another thing with the coming of other tax initiatives that is increasingly becoming unbearable for my constituents.

I think I have come to the conclusion of my line of questioning, but I am not convinced that this is in the best interests of the people I represent. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5941

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Anything further? Mr. Vanthuyne.

Page 5941

Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's funny that we've discovered that this is something that hasn't been raised in a long time. I would just like some clarification, maybe, from the Minister as to how long it has been since this fee has been increased. Thank you.

Page 5941

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5941

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Approximately 25 years.

Page 5941

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Vanthuyne.

Page 5941

Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Now, the intention is that it hasn't been raised in 25 years, but now we're going to raise it, apparently three times over the next three years. I am wondering if the Minister can provide some kind of justification for this phasing-in approach? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5941

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5941

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Well, I'd like to deal first with the issue of the $500,000 of which I spoke of and which was referenced earlier. It's not as though this will all come from Yellowknife; land transfer in Fort Smith or Hay River would likely also be effected. We didn't want to have a revenue shock, if I can put it that way, on the consumers who would be paying this, so that is why it was decided that a most reasonable approach would be to phase it in over time. As I say, the rates had not been changed in approximately 25 years, maybe slightly more, slightly less, but it has been a long time with no change.

Page 5941

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Vanthuyne.

Page 5942

Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Respectfully, we looked at this a couple of years ago when it was being proposed, essentially, as a land transfer tax, and it was at the time proposed that it could possibly bring in somewhere in the neighbourhood of about $3.1 million. I think we understood at that time that about 70 percent of that would have been coming from the Yellowknife market. I appreciate that there are certainly other market communities that are going to be affected by this, but I am a little bit troubled that we are using a phased-in approach. I mean, I don't understand why the department would just have gone to increase the fee to the extent that they thought it was necessary right out of the gate. If you buy a house, you buy a house every five, maybe 10 years. You're not buying a house every single year, so it is not as though there is going to be a shock factor. People are going to buy a house maybe this year. You won't see them buy one for another 10 years. Whether you put the all-in $500,000 now or not doesn't really matter.

The bigger concern is that this type of administration is something that we expect as taxpayers and as residents to be paid through general taxation and payroll-type taxes. When we start picking off little areas of administration where we think we need to add additional fees, then that's when people start to get upset.

Sin taxes and the like are a little bit different because there are often reasons behind those for wanting to change society's behaviour on a particular, usually problematic, or some kind of instance where we need to change society's behaviour so that we can reduce harm to society. In this case, this is housing. You continue to say that we advocate for affordable housing, and we have to undertake initiatives to find ways to make it cheaper to have families buy and reside in homes, and yet here we are again, going to find a way to increase the costs of acquiring housing.

I am still not convinced that this isn't anything more than the government's original plan as it related to gaining their costs and revenue difference to get to the $150 million mark from the onset of this government. I think that, because there was clearly not any public acceptance to the original land transfer tax that would have resulted in $3.1 million a year being generated, this now has been the approach in which we're going to deal with this.

I think that the constituents I represent will have a difficulty with this. They certainly will be letting me know about the increase to the cost of living when I start knocking on their doors in a few weeks.

Unfortunately, Mr. Chair, I can't find myself supporting this particular clause at this point in time. Thank you.

Page 5942

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5942

Louis Sebert Thebacha

I see from my notes that the fees became effective in 1994, so it is approximately 25 years. Yes, this is an increase in fees, but it is nowhere near the land transfer tax that was contemplated earlier. I think this is a reasonable compromise. It is a fairly low increase over a period of three years, and clearly, if you are buying a more expensive house, you pay more fees. I think that is fair. I think this is, as I say, a reasonable compromise. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5942

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Clause 7, Mr. Beaulieu.

Page 5942

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question for the Minister. I am wondering why at this point, in market communities at this point, the market has gone down a bit. I think in Yellowknife you can witness that. There are the properties that were, they were trying to sell some properties. You just look at all the realtors' sites and there has been a huge drop in the market. In Yellowknife, there has been a drop in the market, a significant drop in the market, which, of course, affects everything. The market value of people's properties gives them the ability to borrow, gives them the ability to participate in the economy. Just as the market is kind of going down and has been going down for a couple of years, a few years, I would say, this additional tax is added to it.

I would like to ask the Minister, he wasn't the Minister, I think, when things were going up sharply: what type of advice did he get from the government at this point to put this type of fee in just when the market is on a downturn? Thank you.

Page 5942

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5942

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Of course, if the value of your house is a lower amount, then the fees are lower, too. A fee on a $300,000 house is higher than it would be on a $250,000 house. If you bought at $300,000 and paid a fee then and then someone else buys the house or you buy another house at $250,000, you are going to pay less than you would have. The point is the fees are based on the value of the property or the size of the mortgage. If the market is in decline, we will be collecting fewer fees. Thank you.

Page 5942

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Beaulieu.

Page 5942

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This also applies to a refinancing. Now, if you are not switching houses, but the market value of your house is down, now in addition to having less ability to take money out of the market, there is this fee. I was wondering if the Minister has looked at the frequency of that type of transaction as opposed to just looking at the buy-and-sell transaction where many people go to use their houses for equity in order to purchase other things, buy other things around that are needed, that may not be, or even maybe renovating their own homes. When the unit is refinanced, there is a fee paid in there. What type of impact is that having directly on the people who are refinancing their homes?

Page 5942

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Page 5942

Louis Sebert Thebacha

Thank you for the question. I really don't have that kind of information in front of me. All I want to say, though, is that the way that these fees are set up, if you were remortgaging at $300,000, you will pay a certain fee. If you are remortgaging at $250,000, you will pay a smaller fee. That is how the system is set up. Again, I don't have the kind of information that the Member is asking me about as to the number of these types of transactions and so on. I simply don't have that information. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Page 5943

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Next, we have Ms. Green, clause 7.

Page 5943

Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I find it a bit rich that my colleagues are here now excoriating the Minister for phasing in this fee increase when that was the agreement that we came to. On a $500,000 house, the increase after three years would be $350 on the land transfer. The person buying the $500,000 house would be spending an extra $350. It is my argument that if someone can afford $500,000 dollars for a house, they can afford an additional $350 for the land transfer tax.

Further, I don't want my colleagues to lose sight of the fact that this is an omnibus bill. If it is rejected, we lose the opportunity to help small landlords recover their costs, and we also lose the opportunity to give parents who are receiving child support the opportunity for a more efficient way to receive recalculation services. I would ask my colleagues to think very carefully about putting their own self-interests ahead of the interests of the people of the NWT. Thank you.

---Applause

Page 5943

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Turned into a real socialist Assembly. I'll just clarify the record that a clause can be defeated. It doesn't mean the bill is defeated. It just means the clause is removed. If the nay votes take this vote, the clause is removed, but the bill is not defeated just to clarify that for the record. Anything further? Mr. Testart, you already spoke to this. Do you have another issue? Mr. Testart.

August 12th, 2019

Page 5943

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would request a division on clause 7 and that the vote be recorded. Thank you.

Recorded Vote

Page 5943

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. Testart. The Member has requested a recorded vote on clause 7. All those in favour or all those who approve? One second. Let me get the language right, here, since we are recording this. This is the first time that this has happened in this Assembly. All those in favour of clause 7, please rise.

Committee Motion 161-18(3): Standing Committee on Social Development Report on the Review of Bill 40: Smoking Control and Reduction Act and Bill 41: Tobacco and Vapor Products Control Act - Government Response to Recommendations, Carried

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