I will call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of committee? Mr. Norn.
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In the Legislative Assembly on October 29th, 2020. See this topic in context.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to deal with Tabled Document 181-19(2), Capital Estimates 2021-2022, Department of Infrastructure. Marsi cho, Madam Chair.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, committee. We will take a short break and resume with the first item.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Committee, we have agreed to resume consideration of Tabled Document 181-19(2) Capital Estimates, 2021-2022, with the Department of Infrastructure. Does the Minister of Infrastructure wish to bring any witnesses?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses to the Chamber. Would the Minister please introduce her witnesses?
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I have with me Steve Loutitt, who is my acting deputy minister for Infrastructure, and I also have David Moore, who is the assistant deputy minister for asset management with the Department of Infrastructure.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister, and welcome. The committee has agreed to forgo general comments. Is committee agreed that we will proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Committee, we will defer the departmental totals and refer to the estimates by activity, beginning with asset management on page 41, with the information items on page 42 and 43. Are there comments or questions to the asset management? Member for Deh Cho.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
Thank you Madam Chair, I note that with the department that when they are shutting down a building or because a new one has been built this goes to a lot of the older buildings. When they're going in shutdown mode because other groups, maybe there are groups in the communities that are interested in those buildings, could be any building in any community. Why the department doesn't conduct an HBMA, a Hazardous Building Materials Assessment, so that they already have it on hand? That is valuable information for anybody that's going to take over an asset, so they know what they're dealing with. I can just start with that. Mahsi.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll get Assistant Deputy Minister David Moore to answer this. Thank you.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair, Minister. There is a process, definitely, for the disposal of assets. The disposal begins with what is basically a canvassing of GNWT departments, boards, and agencies of the NWT to determine if other requirements can be used for that building. That follows a process of what is called the Disposal of Improved Real Property Policy. As part of that process, Madam Chair, there is an assessment done of the facility, including the Member's question about assessment of qualifications and conditions of the facility. Thank you.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
I'm not aware of the assessments being available. As I know in my community of Fort Providence, we were wondering about the old health centre unit and, even in K'atlodeeche, the former treatment centre building. I advised them to get the HBMA assessment and the ESA 1, 2, and 3 for the building. It wasn't readily available to anybody in the communities, and I'm just wondering, even in their inquiry, why that information is not released to them? Mahsi.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair, Minister. Basically, through the disposal of real property policy, working through the various priorities of the policy, starting with Northwest Territories public corporations, moving on to community governments, non-profit organizations, and general public, bids are welcomed from those and in that priority sequence. As bids are received, the information is shared with those parties who submit bids through the policy. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
Mahsi for that. I wanted to touch upon the many, many older buildings that Infrastructure has in stock. I know, as a former employee, back then, we were in cost-saving measures at that time. There were lots of suggestions that you shut down these buildings so that they don't consume power or use up fuel, as they're going to be disposed anyway. I'm wondering if the department is in that mode or looking at that possibility. Mahsi.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. We have a disposal of property policy and part of the policy is: once the building is declared surplus by the client department, the Department of Infrastructure disposes of the building in accordance with the Disposal of Improved Real Property Policy. There is a process, Madam Chair. In the interests of property from within the GNWT, Infrastructure offers surplus property for the sale to priority interest groups in the following order of preference: NWT public corporation and community governments, not-for-profit organizations, and the general public. However, there is work that needs to be done before any of these policies are started. Thank you.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
Yeah. I note some government yards. Specifically, I could mention the highway yards. Many of them have old buildings that haven't been decommissioned, type of thing, but they are still hanging onto them, even though they have new garages built because they are not being disposed of. Many of them are not being used, but they are not being totally shut down. I'm just looking at cost-saving measures here, within the department, because we are looking at climate change initiatives, dealing with greenhouse gas emissions. What I notice in a lot of the yards in the small communities is that we don't have a central heating system for the three or four buildings on the lots, so that is eating up a lot of diesel. Has the department ever considered installing maybe a biomass system to feed the clusters in the highways yards? Mahsi.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually, the Capital Assets Retrofit Fund Program is a tremendous opportunity for the GNWT to reduce our GHGs and, through that allocation of $3.8 million a year, we do take that opportunity. It has been a very successful program, Madam Chair. Looking at all opportunities in the GNWT for our facilities, we use that program. This may be an opportunity for that; we'd have to investigate it individually. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
I thank you for that, and I am going to be looking forward. I strongly encourage you, as we are always looking for savings, money for the department, and cutting greenhouse gas emissions. Because I know, in my community, there is none. I look around, and I see there are three or four separate buildings. They are all burning fuel. A good example is: your department looks after schools and everything, and when we did the wood-pellet burner system to the school in Fort Providence, we went from 3,000 litres of diesel a month to close to 500. There are significant savings there if you can do that project, the Fort Providence one, and then hit all the small communities. I don't think the small communities are even given any consideration for any of these initiatives.
Also, I just wanted to touch upon: I know you have a listing here, but I don't see Highway No. 3 from kilometre 0 to 32. That's the junction of Highways No. 1 and No. 3 to the Deh Cho Bridge. That whole highway, I've ridden it for I don't know how many years. It's a total washboard, that whole stretch. You're just about bouncing off the highway. I don't know what happened there, at the beginning. It's a washboard, and everybody who is driving on it notices it. You're bouncing all over. I'm wondering if there is going to be any consideration to upgrade that highway, to resurface it. Mahsi.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Highway No. 3 that the Member is referring to is the Yellowknife Highway. There is the section between Yellowknife and Behchoko that, again, has maintenance challenges for many reasons, due to thawing, disturbances with permafrost, and it again results in uneven surfaces. The department does continue to make investments on that highway that address the grade and surface rehab, with priority given to those areas where driver safety might be higher-risk. The Department of Infrastructure awarded $6.13 million to a multi-year contractor to improve approximately 10 kilometres of the highway, and the project was just completed this summer. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. You've got a couple of projects in here to do with bridges, and they will have in brackets ICIP or the NTCF, which is the funding source. I'm assuming that those are the contributions of the 25 percent for those fundings. My question would be: did we actually get money for Frank Channel, and has that ICIP funding come through? Thank you.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Frank Channel Bridge is close to its end of life of use, and as a result of that, we have transport vehicles that are having to slow down during that part of the bridge. The department is actively looking for new federal dollars, and just as recently as last week, we resubmitted to get this bridge started because it is at a risk right now. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
The amount of money that would be part of this total, then, for Frank Channel is the portion, the 25 percent funds, that you expect to have to spend if you get the successful 75-percent application? Or is this money that you are already allocating now to be spent on, say, maintenance? I can't see it being that. Is this money that you are thinking that you are going to have to spend if you get the funding, or is this actual money you are spending now?
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to ask David Moore to come up with more details. I know we've got a portion of the money. The federal government is really good at giving us 75-cent quarter-dollars, but that's not enough. We recognize that we need to be actively looking. The Member spoke earlier about whether we are doing that. Yes, we are doing that. In terms of where we're at now, I know we've got this money set aside federally, but we do need to find the other 25-cent dollars for that project. Madam Chair, if Mr. Moore wants to add anything to that, I will pass it to him.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister is correct: $22.5 million is in our bilateral agreement with Canada to invest in Highway No. 3. With highways, the work is prioritized. Our teams assess the highway and review it for areas that are the most critical and priority, and those are where the funds are allocated to. Those federal dollars, Madam Chair, are allocated until 2024 for Highway No. 3. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
[Microphone turned off] ...about the Frank Channel Bridge, so I am still confused. Is this money here, the 25-cent dollar, to get the 75 if you are accepted for that funding? Thank you.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. My next question, I'm going to stay with bridges, is about the Great Bear River Bridge. I know that we've had the funding for that for a while, and it is sort of slated to go forward as is. However, I know there have been significant delays on that project, and I actually have a lot of inquiries from constituents and residents as to where it's at. Maybe the Minister could provide me with some understanding around the funding in this year, what it is being used for, and are we on track with where we were at, say, a couple of years ago? Thank you.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Mackenzie Valley Highway funding includes the construction of the Great Bear River Bridge, which will be processed, again, through a competitive process, but that's not what the Member is asking. The Member is asking where we're at in terms of timelines. As I was going through some of my briefings, there is quite a lengthy process in order to get projects going. Right now, we are still in the environmental assessment stage. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. There are time delays on this project. I know that. With those time delays, will that cause us to have to carry over funding that won't get spent as a result of delays to the project? There was a change to the project timelines at one point. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Department of Infrastructure plans to finalize the project description report and start to apply for some of the permits in the fall of 2020. It could be in place by possibly the summer of 2021. We will start to go through the tendering, the awarding, and the construction to take place the beginning of this summer, hopefully, of 2021. The Member will be excited to know that it might be opened by February 2024 to meet the timelines of the federal process. That's where we're at in terms of the timelines. We have to be mindful that things change and delays may take longer, but that's where we're aiming for right now. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I hope that I get to be one of the people that goes and drives that bridge the first time. Definitely invested in it. My last question is around the Prohibition Creek Access Road. I know at some point that that had not actually gone out to tender yet. I'm just wondering if you could provide an update if that is going out for public tender soon or has gone out? Thank you.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Prohibition Creek Access Road is a 13-kilometre segment of the all-season road along the Mackenzie Valley Highway. The department is undertaking some planning work towards that construction and from Canyon Creek to Prohibition Creek, and this project is independent, a standalone, regulatory process. We are still in the process of waiting for the regulatory process.
In June 2020, $20 million in funding was announced for the construction of this access road, with the federal government providing $15 million under Investing in Canada Infrastructure Program and then the GNWT picking up the difference in the tab. The work is still under way. The Member from the Sahtu and I have had some discussions with some of the stakeholders in the community as they are anxiously waiting for this project to take place, as well. We are having those discussions. We are looking at getting things started as soon as we can and when we can. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate that, and I hope that there will be a way to maximize all of the benefits to Northerners and get as many of the businesses in that region working. I'm not sure if this is the right location for it, but I don't see the Tulita Health Centre in this list. Could you provide an update on whether or not it should be on this list, or if there's a reason it's not, or if I'm just in the wrong spot? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
I'm thinking Tulita Health Centre would be under Health and Social Services. Yes. That's it? Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
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Jackson Lafferty Monfwi
Masi, Madam Chair. Obviously, I will be talking about Frank Channel Bridge, as well. On the location, it says, "Various." There's only one location. That's in Frank Channel within Behchoko. I'm just curious why it's "various"? Maybe it's a simple answer?
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will find it here in one second, and I will tell the Member why, hopefully. The replacement, I note it's crucial. Actually, I'm going to defer this, Madam Chair, over to Mr. Loutitt. Thank you.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. The reason it is listed as "various" is because it's part of a bigger package of various bridges throughout the Northwest Territories. The Member is correct. It is in the Frank Channel. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackson Lafferty Monfwi
Masi, Madam Chair. One would assume that once a proposal is submitted, approved by feds, then this area would be targeted as Frank Channel Bridge in Behchoko. I'm not sure if I'm correct on that, but if I can be corrected? Madam Chair, the next one I have is: the proposal has been submitted the previous year, as well. Unfortunately, it was denied by the feds because of various competing proposals from across Canada. The proposal has been submitted according to the Minister's response. When do we expect a decision to be made? We should have a good idea because we've experienced that last year, as well. Masi, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. From my understanding, the department submitted the original proposal. We've got the majority of the dollars, but we were denied in the last round for the 25-cent dollars. Just recently, in the last week or so, I've instructed staff to resend out the proposal. If we don't hear from them in the next week, we need to get in contact. That's where we're at right now with that. I wish I could say it's going to be next week or we're going to know an answer for sure in a month. I don't know. We're still in the engagement phase. Thank you.
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Jackson Lafferty Monfwi
Masi, Madam Chair. I'm glad the Minister's on top of this. As you know, the bridge is over 50 years old. It has very much deteriorated, and lots of commercial trucks go through there. It's a safety hazard. Obviously, I'd like to see that replacement and soon enough. Once we're in that position, I just want to remind the department that we go through the procurement process and local business. NWT business should be the first consideration. We have a talented business arm with experience that can easily take this on. Madam Chair, that's just a comment on this particular area.
If I may, move onto the next subject area, and that is Tlicho All-Season Road. Madam Chair, we've been talking about this for a number of years now. Now, it's in the final phase to be completed in November of next year, 2021. Tlicho All-Season Road to Whati, that's what the title is TASR. Madam Chair, I just found out the last couple of weeks, the road being built is not connecting all the way to Whati community. A lot of elders in the past have always talked about connecting from Whati to Yellowknife, so they can have access to get out whenever they need to. That's my understanding, and I'd just like to know where it's at because it is expected that the road will be linked to the community of Whati. Is that the case, Madam Chair?
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Tlicho All-Season Road, and I was very happy to be able to take a drive on that 72 kilometre of 97, but we did come to the end of the bridge. We're expecting the work to be completed next year. Great opportunity for the Monfwi people to have a road to the access road. The access road will bring them to the community. That was the original plan, Madam Chair, and that's what the department is working on. Thank you.
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Jackson Lafferty Monfwi
Masi, Madam Chair. I do believe, when we toured the 72 kilometres, my official chief's leadership have also travelled the road, as well, have a tour of the road infrastructure. There's been questions asked by the Chief of Whati and of council members, too. I understand that there's been talks that Kiewit, the main contractor, they can link up the road towards the community of Whati as opposed to just access road. I believe that there's discussions taking place with the main contractor, and I'm just wondering where things are at because that was the last couple of weeks now, I believe, or the last few weeks ago. Has there been any productive discussion based on that? Masi, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to ask Mr. Loutitt to take the question.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. The road, as we're being built, will connect, as the Minister noted, to the Whati access road. We recently had engineers in there just to have a look at it to assess what we're looking at as far as widening, drainage, what the requirements would be for widening, drainage, and other factors. Once we look at that report, we will be coming to seek funding for that portion, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackson Lafferty Monfwi
Masi, Madam Chair. My understanding from what the ADM has said: the money that was identified for Whati all-season road was from Highway No. 3 only to Whati access road. Is that the case with the federal government proposal? That will be my next line of question.
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Jackson Lafferty Monfwi
There is some feasibility or discussion has taken place now to deal with potential widening of the road to Whati. When are we expected to wrap things up so we can start planning on that? I understand Kiewit is very interested in doing that project, so just wondering when, because the ADM alluded to, as well, the current discussion happening. When are we expecting to get some results out of that? Masi.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. The team is actively working with Kiewit on the review of the inspection that deputy Loutitt just referred to. Going over the information, going over the width of the road, conditions, culvert replacements, et cetera, at which point they will understand the scope of the funding that will be required and then proceed with procurement options. That should happen over the next few months, Madam Chair. Thank you.
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Jackson Lafferty Monfwi
Masi, Madam Chair. Once the information comes in, since it wasn't part of the federal proposal, I would assume that the funding will be identified within the department. Is that the case to offset the costs of connecting to Whati? Masi.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm not sure what the plan was at the beginning of this Tlicho All-Season Road. I know there has been years and years of work in place to get this as far as it has gone to the access road. I'm going to let Mr. Moore take the question.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. The department is actively working with the Department of Finance through procurement and through Kiewit to look at funding solutions and procurement options with the intention that once that is determined we would proceed with construction once spring comes. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marci cho, Madam Chair. Looking through the asset management lists for all the projects we've got going on, lots of various locations, yet I don't see anything specifically for my riding, Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. This is very disappointing for me. I'm really disappointed, the trend I'm seeing through all these investments. I'm going line by line and seeing all this work that's being done, and my constituents are being left out. I'm not okay with that. Saying that, like I said in various, I'm hoping that some of these projects are captured in my community. I'm just going to have a question for the Minister to start. These locations that are titled various, are Lutselk'e and Deninu Kue part of that? Marci cho.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The department has committed 20 kilometers of chip seal on Highway No. 6, which leads into the Member's constituent. I also do want to make note that the capital plan, especially for Infrastructure, it's over a 10-year period, and although the Member may not see things on this year's capital plan, it does not mean it wasn't in the previous year or perhaps maybe in another year. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you. I do understand that a lot of these items were brought into play well before we were elected into office, but it's still good to know that there is still a good long term of work outlook for my constituents because we do have a lot of people that still need to go to work and depend on some of these contracts that are on here. I want to see more of that in the riding. Of course, not just for Deninu Kue and Lutselk'e but also Ndilo and Detah. Aside from that 20-kilometer chip seal outside of Deninu Kue, was there anything else in my riding? I'm referring to Ndilo and Detah, as well. Thank you.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to request Mr. Moore to take the question. Thank you.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. In addition to the chip seal, we talked about the addition of work that will proceed over a number of years. Lutselk'e power plant would be one of those that the department is currently working on. It's a federally funded initiative that's proceeding in 2021-2022. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Two days ago, I brought up an idea of possibly having a neutral service of the fire department. They have a fire hall in Detah. It got me thinking. I'm just wondering if there is anything in the long-term capital plan to upgrade the road between the Detah junction and Detah? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. If I recall correctly, and I could ask for some assistance, but last month, we took a drive and met with the YKDFN. I was told that there was a number of work that was done on that road, and it just finished this summer. I'm going to ask Mr. Moore to just confirm that because I was told that there was a number of work that was done on the road to Detah. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. That's correct. That work proceeded this summer and was completed or a chip-seal project. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just going to leave this now. I do probably have some other questions, and I'll think on it. If I have any more questions, I'll submit in writing. Marsi cho.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member. Are there any other questions, comments, under Asset Management on pages 42 and 43? Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. My first question is: of this $167 million here, I notice there is a lot of federal funding and a lot of 75-cent dollars, but of that total figure, how much of this is federal money? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to send the question to Mr. Loutitt.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. You are correct. Of the $292 million, approximately $260 million of it is tied up in federal agreements. I would have to come back to you with the answer of exactly how much of that is allocated from the federal government and how much from the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. I would appreciate, on this area, getting a sense of that. When we pass $167 million, it's usually not us actually passing that because there is a bunch of federal dollars attached, so I would just like to have that figure. In question period today, I heard that, essentially, our deferred maintenance was at $465 million on all of our assets, and we're spending about $5 million a year. By my calculation, it will take us 93 years to catch up on all of our deferred maintenance. Can somebody just help me understand that figure? I would like a little bit more explanation. Essentially, is it us taking all of the infrastructure we have, doing a needs assessment, and seeing what needs to be repaired and replaced, and that comes to $465 million? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The breakdown for the cost of $465,728,561, it is a backlog. We recognize that, but we don't have that kind of money just laying around, especially if we have priorities here within our mandate. We are already working with such a low amount of millions of dollars to complete our mandate in the next three more years. I talked earlier about how the priority one critical breakdown is $11 million. Each year, we are allocated $5 million for deferred maintenance. Some of the potentially critical is about $18 million, just over $18 million, and some of the necessary but not critical is about $436 million. We have broken it down into three categories of what is our priority, what is our potential priority, and our necessary but not needed right now. That is the breakdown that I have, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Perhaps I could just understand: could I get a sense of what is in deferred maintenance? I understand it's all of our assets. Does it include roads or bridges? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The deferred maintenance funding is used to address some of the deferred maintenance issues, primarily consisting of some of the structural failures, building code issues related to life safety. There are roof and exterior envelope failures. There are additional issues related to building and fire codes; building mechanical, electrical, and structural components; and accessibility. Those are some of the areas that the deferred maintenance is used for. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. In that list, I didn't hear roads and bridges. My understanding is that this is a giant figure, but if we also included all the maintenance and the O and M on our roads and bridges over the next decade and our needs assessments, our total infrastructure gap would be well beyond this. It is what it is. I think we're all aware of our infrastructure needs, and that we are one of the lowest and most behind in Canada. My specific question, though, is: deferred maintenance is on assets, and when we're doing O and M budgets, the Department of Finance has a formula for amortization such that every asset automatically has an amount of money, the values decrease, that we must the put toward capital. Can I just have an understanding of the relationship between amortization and deferred maintenance? Because, to me, they should just line up. Is there something wrong in how we're doing that, or is there just something I don't understand? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. That's a very technical question that I just can't find the right page for, so I'm going to go and look out to the expertise of David Moore. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to go back, it is only buildings. It is primarily looking at about 430 major assets in the GNWT. We inspect them on a five-year cycle, and we look at those assets for a number of things. As the Minister referred to, basically assessing how critical those issues are, structural failures, building code issues, whether there are accessibility concerns, et cetera. Now, to get to the Member's question, a number of the requirements are aligned with the degree to which the breakdown of the deferred maintenance requirement is there. As the Minister mentioned, $11 million of that backlog is actually currently critical, so that would essentially mean life safety hazards, functionality issues, code violations, things that are urgently required. That's where that $5 million is allocated. Is it aligned to outside the program? Not that I'm aware of, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is just getting to my lack of not really understanding the Fiscal Responsibility Policy and the way things are going. I struggle that we amortize certain assets, and we make sure that we are kind of calculating what the needs assessment is. I get that. It's giant, and it's going to get out of whack. I am wondering if there is a way that the Department of Infrastructure can work with the Department of Finance such that we have a policy where we don't have $11 million in this first priority that comes before us and we're not funding it. To me, it just seems like we're building infrastructure and not building in a financial responsibility policy that requires that we maintain it. I know I'm not going to get that "yes," but is that a conversation that can happen such that we don't continually get budgets that have things that don't meet code, that are just going to cost us more money in the long run? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll say yes, but I just want to point out that the amortization is an accounting treatment of capital assets to expense the costs of the assets' useful life. We talked about some of the capital assets, like the bridges, and they are coming to the end of their useful life. That's a priority. We need that road for big trucks to travel back and forth in the territory safely. We do recognize that this is a priority, and it is working with the Department of Finance to be able to set aside money so that Infrastructure can go and upkeep buildings that are safe for the people, make sure our roads are safe, and the list continues. Yes. I was getting to that. Yes, we will work with the Department of Finance. People like "yesses," out there.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to switch gears a little here. The ice road to the diamond mines, does the Department of Infrastructure have any role in that? Do we pay for that? Can I just have an understanding of how that works? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Okay. Well, that's that, I guess. My next question is rather specific: this is the section of the GNWT that does all of our leasing. It controls our building infrastructure. It also is the section of the budget that retrofits our programs. I think we own three large towers in downtown Yellowknife. We rent the other three. We are by far the biggest landlord in Yellowknife. We give all of this money to Northview. We don't dip it. I have a lot of problems with that area, but I only have about 10 seconds left. Can the Department of Infrastructure look into a district heating system for all of the giant towers which we either own or rent in downtown Yellowknife? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. We have 23 energy strategies, and there are priorities in there. One of the priorities is to increase the use of biomass. I think the Member has bugged me about this question before. I know the answer, and that's why I'm able to say it. We have a target of 40 percent. Right now, we are at about 25 percent. I agree that we're getting there, but we're not quite there. It takes time and money. That is something the department is working on. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I have some questions about the Tlicho All-Season Road. I was in the last Assembly, and I am sorry to say that this is the first time that I've ever heard that the highway doesn't actually go to the community. It comes as more than a bit of a surprise. I am furiously trying to look at the environmental review board website, and I do see a map here showing the Tlicho All-Season Road going up to a point that is outside the community boundary. Is there actually a road, then, that is going to go from the end? Is there a road already in place from the end of the Tlicho All-Season Road into Whati? Is there a road already there? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. This Tlicho All-Season Road is a two-lane, 97-kilometre road that's meant to get to the access road. Once you get to the access road, that brings you into the community. Yes, it all connects. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Of course, I have never had a chance to go out there myself. What kind of condition is that access road in? Thanks.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. If I remember correctly, it was the Rae Access Road, and we have blocked that road off for construction. Nobody could go in there unless you are an essential worker or part of the group that is going in. It is from the Rae Access Road, leading into the community of Whati.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
To Whati? Okay. I did say Behchoko. Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to ask Mr. Loutitt to answer that because I thought it was: the road is there, and then we are at the access road. I have not been to the access road part, so Mr. Loutitt can speak on what the condition is. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. I have had the luxury of going to the beautiful community of Whati on several occasions. The road is, as the Member alluded, narrow and does need some upgrading. We understand that, and as we noted earlier, we do have that in our plans, to facilitate those repairs. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. It was a lot of back and forth to find out that we are building a road, a highway, that does not even go to a community; it goes to a narrow, windy road that needs to be upgraded to actually get into the community. How did we design it? Sorry. I am just a bit astounded that we could actually develop a project like this without actually developing the last, it looks like maybe, 15, 20 kilometres into the community. How do we go forward with a project like this without building the last bit into the community? Thanks, Madam Chair. Sorry. I am a bit surprised at this, having sat through the last Assembly and only finding out now that we are not even building a road to a community. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. When I became Minister of Infrastructure, I was quite surprised, too. It is something that the department will work with, with getting the last part of it completed. Right now, you have the road, and then it brings you access to the community. It's no different than some of the other projects that we are doing across the Mackenzie Valley Highway, such as the Prohibition Creek road and some other projects, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I guess this is a little secret that I will let the Minister in on then. If we are going to build a road to a community and tout it as a project to a community, we should actually finish the project and make sure an access road is included in the highway. I am finding this really hard to believe, but I do not know how many more millions of dollars this is. It's $451 million, including the maintenance cost to build this highway, and it does not even go to a community? Yes. I think I will just leave it at that. I am more than a little shocked.
My next question is about the Frank Channel Bridge. The last time GNWT went to the federal government to ask for money for the Frank Channel Bridge, it's my understanding and I was told that it was competing with the Slave Geological Province road, and for whatever reason, Cabinet of the day said that the Slave Geological Province road was a priority over the Frank Channel Bridge, which I continue to be amazed at, again putting a road to, sorry, nowhere over public safety. What kind of assurance can the Minister give me that the Frank Channel Bridge is actually a priority in terms of funding submissions to the federal government at this point? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Member is correct, and I have mentioned it earlier on a couple of other questions. The bridge is set to expire in 2023. The final design construction is anticipated to take up to three years. The Member is right. I am told that the proposal did not get approved, but there is other federal funding that is out there that we have resubmitted the proposal. Hopefully, we will know. Again, I do not know the timeline, but this is something that is a priority. As well, if you look at our mandate, there are other priorities, as well. This is one of the many. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Just so I am clear, is there actual money in this set of capital estimates for the Frank Channel Bridge right now? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to ask Mr. Moore to answer this. Thank you.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Frank Channel is indeed a priority. We are seeking federal funding on a couple of fronts right now, including working with Transport Canada, and that would be for 75-25 funding. The 25 percent is indeed part of our capital plan that we are talking about right now. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. There is GNWT money being put into the capital budget for this project, and we are hoping that the federal government is going to match it with 75-cent dollars? Is that what I have just heard? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I do not believe that is the case, but I am going to let Mr. Moore just clarify. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. It's part of our submission that we request the 75 percent up front and in planning the 25 percent, should the 75 percent be successful, so we have it in our allocated capital plan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Yes. Thanks, Madam Chair. I guess we are putting up the 75-cent dollars, hoping that somebody else is going to come along and match it with 25-cent dollars? Is that what this is about? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I am going to get Mr. Loutitt to answer this.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. The funding formula would be 25 percent for the Government of the Northwest Territories and 75 percent for Canada. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I just want to again make my views known to the Minister and to all my colleagues on the other side that, as far as I am concerned, the Frank Channel Bridge, which is a public safety issue, needs to be a priority over the Slave Geological Province road. Thanks, Madam Chair. That is all I have.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member. I will take that as a comment. Committee, we are going to break for a few minutes.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
I will call Committee of the Whole back to order. I have Member for Hay River South.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I was hoping to get up a little earlier because the Minister was saying "yes" there quite a few times. It might be a little late, now. Anyway, I'd just like to talk a bit about the bridges that are kind of set to go here. In the North here, we always talk about resource development, and one of the things when we talk about resource development is that we have to think about the roads. We have to think about what weights those roads can take. We have to think about the bridges themselves, whether we have a high-load corridor here. In some areas, we don't have that. I would just like to ask the Minister: when it comes to the bridges that we have set to be built, are they going to be open-span to ensure that we have a high-load corridor coming in to the NWT and down the valley and up toward the diamond mines? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. Let me use one example. The Frank Channel Bridge has an overhead truss structure, which restricts the transportation of oversized-dimension equipment that is able to get to the territories. Any new bridges that are built in the territories should be open-span. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I know the Hay River Bridge is open-span, but the Buffalo River Bridge does have a canopy over it, and the government did put money into it a few years ago. Can you tell me if there is any indication that that bridge will be looked at in the near future to ensure that it becomes open-span, as well? Because we do have development in the Pine Point area, and I think that it would be prudent to have an open-span system there and going in toward Fort Smith, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to get Mr. Moore to answer that. Thank you.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Member raises a very good point, and work was recently done at Buffalo. We certainly look at each bridge individually, of course, with respect to its own design and requirements and available budget. In that particular case, it wasn't possible to look at expanding the truss system, but as the Minister mentioned, in other cases, such as Frank Channel, we certainly are looking at that as one of the priorities for a future design. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just looking at the highway reconstruction here, I see we have Highway No. 1. Can the Minister tell me if there is any work slated for between kilometres 0 and 82? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't know what specific area this is, at the moment, so I'm going to defer to Mr. Moore. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. Not currently, at this time, but we are looking at that, that stretch of Highway No. 1, looking at issues that may occur, widening requirements, geometry. Certainly, inspecting the quality and integrity of the road, that is certainly ongoing. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am pleased to hear that because, from zero to Enterprise, the road is narrow, once you get past Enterprise, there are shoulders there all the way into Yellowknife. I think it's important. It is a main highway coming into the territories, and I think it's important that we do widen that road and possibly even straighten it at certain points. The next, the one highway I see here missing is Highway No. 2, which is from Enterprise to Hay River, and that highway gets a lot of use with large transport vehicles during the winter, due to fuel haul. That road is windy. Has there been any discussion or planning to straighten that road and also widen it? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. We try to look at all of the highways throughout the territory, including Highway No. 2, looking at areas that we can prioritize our federal funding to. A large part of our investment is certainly federally funded, but Highway No. 2 is not included in that plan at this current time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to talk about Highway No. 3 from kilometre 4 to probably before the bridge. It's a washboard there, and whenever I drive it there, you've got to slow down. I am just wondering if the Minister can tell me what plans there are to work on that road, to ensure that we get that washboard out of there and try to make it so traffic can actually go the speed limit on it. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The department has invested just over $6 million for work to improve Highway No. 3. I am going to defer this to Mr. Moore to speak more specifically about the ruts on the road. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. Highway No. 3 is certainly a challenge, as the Member notes. There are a number of permafrost challenges on that road that the department is continuously working on. It has also been the subject of some of our research and development. It's probably not well known that the department does research into permafrost resilience on our highways to determine how best to move forward with them, and we have a number of test strips on Highway No. 3 helping us in that regard. However, as the Minister mentioned, there has been significant investment in Highway No. 3; $22.5 million, in fact, will be invested between 2019 and 2024 under the new Building Canada plan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to move on to Highway No. 7. We talk about tourism, and I think that Highway No. 7 is -- I have not driven it for a while, but I do talk to people who are on it. Sometimes, it's not too bad, and other times, she is pretty rough. I am just wondering what is the long-term plan to get that road up to a certain type of facility that can take the bigger trucks and not be beaten up like it has been? I know that there are some pretty bad washboards. There has been some. When you are driving along there, you are doing 80 kilometres an hour, and all of a sudden, you have got to slow down to about 20. I am just wondering what is being done to deal with that highway. I think, if that highway is in fairly good shape, it would encourage tourism, as well. Thank you.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. Between 2019-2020 and 2023-2024, the Department of Infrastructure will invest $15 million to improvements to Highway No. 7, with federal funding under what's called the new Building Canada plan. This is some of the work. The rehab work is focused on kilometres 20 to 38 and areas where there is severe distress and that require immediate attention, mostly to maintain public safety and operation of the highway. This work includes things like culvert replacement, roadway widening, horizontal/vertical curve move. The department is looking at obtaining some of these permits to get started. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
All right. Are there any further questions on the asset management, pages 41 to 43? Seeing none, I will call the activity. Infrastructure, asset management, infrastructure investments, $167,809,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
We will now turn to corporate management on page 44, with information items on page 45. Questions, comments? Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask a number of questions about the Slave Geological Province Corridor there. I believe we got $40 million from the federal government to advance this, and I see there it's for environmental assessment for Lockhart Lake, the first section of LASR as some people are now calling it, I heard the other day. Can I just get clarification? Do we expect it to cost $40 million to put just the LASR part through environmental assessment? Can I get a breakdown on how that money is going to be spent? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. On August 14, 2019, Transport Canada announced it would provide $30 million under what's called the National Trade Corridors Fund for environmental study and the regulatory process for the planning studies to advance the Slave Geological Province Corridor. The GNWT has committed $10 million to the project, which brings us to a total of $40 million. The project will support the future economy of the Northwest Territories by not only facilitating mineral exploration development in a region with significant resource potential, provide improved access to minerals and metals critical to the green economy of the future, and assisting with reclaiming mines in the region upon closure. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I just confirm that? I understand we are going to do the project description report; we are going to do a developers assessment report; and then we are going into environmental assessment. Are we entering environmental assessment just from Highway No. 4 to Lockhart Lake, or are we entering environmental assessment for the entire road, two of the three phases? Can I just get a sense of what we are bringing to the land and water board? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. There are four project phases, and maybe I will eventually get to the Member's answer. The first phase, which is costing of $40 million, this is the environmental and planning engineering studies. That is the first phase of this project. The second is the construction of the 179-kilometre all-weather road from Lockhart Lake to Lac De Gras, which is estimated about $350 million. The fourth plan is the construction of the 82 all-weather road. This is a big project, you know, something that the government is pursuing, but first we need to do the environmental studies. Thank you.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. I understand, yes, there are the multiple phases. First, we are going to Lockhart. Then, we are going to go to Lac De Gras. Then, we're going to maybe go to Nunavut. Then, maybe Nunavut's going to go to the ocean, and then, maybe they're going to build a port. I understand there are multiple steps. My question is: the $40 million we got, are we going to environmental assessment on just to Lockhart Lake, just that first step of construction, or what are we bringing to environmental assessment? We had this problem with the Mackenzie Valley Highway, but we proposed the entire road into environmental assessment. It got caught up in years, then we dialed it back and said, "No, no. We're just doing these in portions." I'm just looking for what exactly we're bringing to environmental assessment. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. The first phase is the section from Highway No. 4 to Lockhart that we are right now bringing our regular applications forward, doing our planning, looking at attrition knowledge, and working with our partners. There will be a decision point at that point on whether the project goes to EA at that point. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm happy to do we are doing this in phases. I recognize it's not our decision whether it goes to EA. I don't think it's much secret that it probably will go to the environmental assessment. I want to get the sense: say we get regular approvals; we get those in 2024, let's say past the life of this Assembly; say we're approved, and we have funding for just phase 1 of Lockhart Lake. Will we build the road to Lockhart Lake, start construction, or are we going to wait to get regulatory approval and funding secured for the other phases? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll get Mr. Loutitt to answer that. Thank you.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. The plan is to plan and work on the construction in phases, so that would be our intention. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Part of my concern with this entire project is that, I think in 2001, there was a business case. There has been years of talking about this, and it made probably complete sense when the diamond mines were in full operation. It would have saved them millions of dollars in not building the ice road every year. I am concerned that even if we built phase 1, which doesn't get us to the diamond mines, by the time we actually get phase 2 built, we're into 2027 would be my guess at the earliest. Most of those mines are ending the life of their operation.
There is kind of this never-ending moving target with this road of: we do a business plan and it says, "Yes. It's fine," and then, we have to wait 20 years. It seems we are least waiting another five years to even start construction. Can I get the Minister to speak to how those business plans and that assessment of the return on this keeps getting evaluated as the mines actually wind down? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. That portion still provides advantages to industry in the area and also will enhance exploration and also extends the ice road further north. The long-term vision of this project was to include an infrastructure corridor that supports road, communications, hydro transmission line infrastructure. It connects to an all-weather road, perhaps in Nunavut, that will link onto the deep-water Arctic part. There are opportunities within this project other than just looking at different phases. I respect it's going to take time. A lot of infrastructure projects do take time. It is something that is part of the mandate. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. There have been a number of different assessments of this road and benefit-cost analysis. One of the problems is many of the ones I have seen, they do the analysis based on there being hydro, based on the road going to Nunavut, based on the port existing. I have yet to see a business case for just Lockhart Lake road, which is what we are proposing to build. We're proposing to build a road that doesn't get to the diamond mines, that doesn't have hydro. Is the Minister willing to go and do the business case for just that? Funding for this is ultimately up to political will. We may be sitting here in 2028, and we just built a road to Lockhart Lake and then decided to not build any further. Then, it will truly be a road to nowhere. It won't even be a road to the diamond mines. I just want to make sure that there is a business case for phase 1. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is something the Department of Infrastructure can look into, but we also can work with other departments within the GNWT, including ITI. There are opportunities there within that department to be able to work together to see how we can expand this project further. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I just have the Minister confirm, in what we're sending to environmental assessment and the road to Lockhart Lake will hydro lines or power lines be included at that at all? Is that part of this plan? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. There is potential within the Slave Geological Province Corridor. Some of the areas I've talked about, and the opportunities can include reaching out to other areas where we have other sources of hydro, perhaps. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just going to ask that question one more time a different way. I recognize we're sending this project for approval. It may go to environmental assessment, in all likelihood. We need to have a lot of detail. Is part of the plan to include extending power lines? Obviously, this would require running them up the Ingraham Trail and then down the road, which would be another huge project. I want to clarify whether the project as defined to Lockhart Lake includes transmission lines. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to get Mr. Loutitt to expand further on some of the potential opportunities within this project. Thank you.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. Obviously, this road is very important to the economic well-being of the Northwest Territories. It's going to an area that is rich in minerals. It promotes future economic activity and exploration and will create additional revenue streams, as well as employment for people in the area while it is under construction. While Taltson is being advanced separately, our long-term vision is to go to the SGPC. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Deputy Minister Loutitt. Are there any other comments, questions under the corporate management section? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I'd like to pick up where my colleague from Yellowknife North left off. The Mackenzie Valley Highway has been in environmental assessment now for over seven years. Seven years. It was submitted to environmental assessment by GNWT Department of Transportation back in February of 2013. What I'm worried is that the same thing is about to happen with the Slave Geological Province Road. I've heard a lot of fuzziness around what this project really is; whether it includes hydro; is it really part of a bigger project that's going to spill over into Nunavut? It's extremely fuzzy. I understand that some of this funding is perhaps to better define the project, at least I hope so for $40 million. I'd like to know: is it the intention to submit a project to environmental assessment during the life of this Assembly? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. The best time would have been to build this would have been at least 30 years ago, but the second time is just to get it started now. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Given that the GNWT itself triggered an environmental assessment for the Mackenzie Valley Highway, is this government going to submit or trigger an environment assessment itself for the Slave Geological Province road or Lockhart Lake road, whatever's it's going to be called? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. We will be submitting regulatory applications for the projects. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I'm not sure that the Minister actually understood my question. Of course, regulatory applications are the first step to an environmental assessment, but any party, including GNWT -- I shouldn't say, "any party" -- a limited number of parties can actually trigger or, once the applications are filed, ask that an environmental assessment be conducted. One of those parties is this government. Is this party going to trigger an environmental assessment for this project? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will get Mr. Moore to explain further. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Moore
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a long, complex process. Obviously, there're a lot of investigative studies that are part of the $40 million, and part of that is understanding of the attributes of environmental risk and consequences of proceeding on certain routes. That will feed into the decision-making process, whether we proceed with an EA or not and what stage. I think it's a bit premature at this point to proceed. It's not our decision, basically, to move forward with an EA or not. The board processes will determine, essentially, if we need to proceed with an EA or not. At this point, Madam Chair, it's premature to say. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I'm going to stop this line of questioning on this item because I don't think my witnesses here really actually understand what's in the MVR, that our government actually does have the authority to trigger an environmental assessment, which is exactly what they did for the Mackenzie Valley Highway. I might suggest that they do some homework on this issue.
I want to go back to what the Minister said about this project: it would have been good maybe 30 years ago. What I'm worried about is: I would like to see a cost benefit study or a business case developed for the road from the end of the Ingraham Trail to Lockhart Lake if, indeed, that's what the project is. Maybe even the more important question to ask is: by putting this money into this road, it means that we're not doing other things. What are the opportunity costs associated with doing this road? If it costs $450 million, that's 20 years of universal childcare that we could have in the Northwest Territories. Four hundred and fifty million dollars would probably get most of our housing out of core need. Choices have to be made, and I've made my choice that I don't think this is a great investment, quite frankly, especially at a time where caribou are at a critical stage, the Bathurst caribou herd. In the kind of economic analysis that the department intends to undertake, is that kind of work going to be done to look at what the opportunity cost are of spending $450 million on a road that ends at Lockhart Lake? Is that kind of economic analysis going to be done? Thanks Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. Absolutely, we can look into it. I do want to make note that we have funding for the road. There's lots of work for businesses who are accessing it. Also, just a note, some of the funding we received is specifically for roads and highways and project-specific. We can't be telling the federal government to go and say, "No. We don't want to spend your money on an area where it's slotted, rather than to use it in another area." We are getting $75 into communities we wouldn't be able to get in any of our communities anyway. Thank you, Madam.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes. I really want to encourage the Minister, maybe working with her colleague the Minister of Finance to do that kind of macro-economic analysis of what we could actually get for $450 million, the cost to build this road. We don't have the $450 million to build it, and I think that's probably on the low side. Would we create more jobs? Would we create greater well-being for the Northwest Territories if we invested in that money into childcare or housing rather than building a road? That's a fundamental question here that I hope that my colleagues on the other side are actually listening to.
We only have $538 million left in the borrowing limit for this government. How are we going to be able to afford to do Mackenzie Valley Highway work, Slave Geological Province road, and Taltson all at the same time when we have that limited amount of borrowing limit left? We can't do it all. Hard decisions have to be made, and no one seems to want to make that decision, those hard decisions about what our real priorities are: whether we're going to put our people first in terms of childcare, housing, you name it; or are we going to build roads? I'm sorry. That's the stark choice that faces this government.
I've said before: if I had to build one infrastructure project, it's not even in the budget, is completing a network of broadband connecting all of our communities to high speed Internet. It's not even in this budget. It's not even a big infrastructure project nowhere. That's the project that we can and should be taking to Ottawa, not the Slave Geological Province road.
Those are comments, Madam Chair, but I really urge my colleagues on the other side of the House to do the hard, economic analysis that needs to be done to look at what we can get with the dollars that we have. Investing in a road like this is not going to generate the kind of long-term benefits that I've heard people here talk in very fuzzy terms about. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake, and I will take those as comments as there are no questions. Are there any further comments, questions, to the corporate management, 44 and 45? Member for Thebacha.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
I listened to some of the comments around the table. Economic recovery is extremely important. Economic recovery means new dreams, new developments, new things. When I hear comments that are, "These monies and allocations were given for certain projects. They can't be changed to universal childcare. They cannot be changed to something else" -- when we sit around this table and we're talking about infrastructure and we're not even discussing that in that right department, it amazes me on some of the things that are brought here at this level in that sense.
I, too, agree with universal childcare. I, too, agree with all these things. Can't have everything if you don't have infrastructure that is going to carry this territory forward. We have mines closing. We have lost a lot of jobs with this mine. We looked at it this morning. That's a lot of jobs we're talking about. How are you going to rebuild the territory if you don't have dreams and you don't have an amazing infrastructure ability to really want to do something entirely with what we got and ensuring that the federal government helps us with Indigenous procurement so that we can move forward and ownership with the Indigenous peoples because those are the things that could actually be done if you actually want to do it.
From what I see in the discussions in the past, we can do that. You can do anything you want if you put your mind to it. I firmly believe in that. I'm very much a business person; I always have been, all my life. I never depended on government, most of the time. I am very pro-business. I always will be. Other people have other agendas, and that's fine. We can't all think the same, but I know for sure that the three main projects that are designated in our mandate agenda is what we agreed on. The majority is always what we agree on.
There are a couple of things that I noticed in the last day or so that puzzle me about Infrastructure, and it is mainly to deal with the Taltson. I am very much about the Taltson expansion, and now I see that the Minister has appointed the same old board again, all deputy ministers, no arm's length, and that really concerns me. You have very capable people, the president and everyone else at NCPC, who could maybe think of different ideas instead of thinking in tunnel vision, like most governments do, and do something entirely different and think out of the box. Yet, we appoint all these deputy ministers back to a board, instead of having an arm's length board of governors in the governance aspect of the NCPC, and that would also include the Taltson expansion. I want to ask the Minister: how did she decide on this, again? Minister Archie, would you answer my question, please?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Just to be clear, I think that is under the next section, the Taltson. On the corporate management, we've only got the three line items. If you want, I can give you the question when we get to the next section, if that's okay, on the Taltson.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
Sorry, Madam Chair. I am getting too tired. I said I wanted to make sure, Madam Chair, that I just put a statement in on the corporate management side, too, because I am very strong on making sure that we, as a government, do not think of only all these other things. We have to have a balance, I know that, with climate change, environment, and stuff, but we also have to move forward. I am not going to ask any questions. I don't know how the Minister feels about that. I just want to see how she feels about that, because I sit here and I listen. As a businessperson and being 50 years in business, it puzzles me, sometimes, how this government thinks, so maybe Minister Archie could just give me an insight on her insight. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister of Infrastructure, do you have any comments?
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for that. I thank the Member for her questions around some of the infrastructure projects because you look at this and these projects were part of our mandate. It's part of our Assembly, and for us to look at proceeding with some of the projects, if and where we can, I think, is important. I did speak earlier about some of the federal funding that we receive, and we need to continue to pursue more and more funding as we start to link up some of our roads to get communities connected, to make best use of some of our mineral resources and just our resources in general that are out there. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm looking at three maps, right now, and I just want to be honest with each and every one of you in here: I am very conflicted about all of this, the SGP, in particular. Last night, we had a hearing in SCEDE on the wolves and caribou and some of the calving grounds. We talked about that yesterday, in particular. Then, I'm looking at another map here, with the SGP, where it goes, what the ultimate end routes are going to be and where it starts out. That's something else I'm looking at. I went on Wikipedia, and I thought, "I want to see exactly where my riding sits." This sits right in my riding, so I think it's appropriate that I actually say something about this.
It is about balance. I know that the YKDFN and the GNWT worked out a deal to do the environmental assessment, and for me, that part is good, the environmental assessment, to go down that route. To me, that means that there is food being put on plates for my constituents. That is so important. You don't get anywhere by being totally on one side of the fence or being totally on the other side of the fence. You have to try to find that fine line and do what is best for your people. That's where I sit, right now. I look at this, and I want to think about: where are we going to be sitting 50 years from now, down the road? What are our caribou herds going to be looking like? What is our development going to be looking like? I always try to find solutions through this. I looked at one map here, and I am happy that, looking through some of the plans for this, there are a bunch of routes, at least, to find ways to not disturb wildlife as best they can.
I liked when I kind of went through some of the other developments we have, because there are not only diamond mines. There is other development, and it's important. This is what kept our economy afloat for a very long time, and we still have be mindful of that. When I drove over to Deninu Kue, I drove by Pine Point, and there used to be a railroad there. They took it down because the zinc mine closed down at Pine Point many years ago, but now, they are reopening it. They are talking about revisiting that and going and finding a mutual, beneficial deal, there, with the Deninu Kue and with other parties; of course, with the Metis. That is what I want to see. Too many times, we've had so many developments, no matter what the development was, no matter what the infrastructure was. We talked about Taltson. They came in, and we had no benefits for the longest time. For me, from my point of view, I am sick of seeing that. From here on forward, I will only support these big projects if we see our people benefit, up in the North; our Indigenous companies benefit. Because, if we don't, then what? What are we going to have left for our future generations?
I know that, in the future, I will probably, myself here sitting in this House, have some tough decisions to make, but right now, the way I feel about it, there is a balanced approach to it. You still have to find ways to keep your people working and to balance that fine line of respecting the environment and respecting how your ancestors used to hunt. My great-grandparents, they used to hunt in a lot of these hunting grounds. Again, I'm looking at the map. It's a vast map that my constituents from Ndilo, Detah, Lutselk'e, and Fort Resolution used to hunt, and they still do. You can't forget that.
I don't have too many questions on that right now, but like I said, it's about balance through all of this. That is where my mind sits on that. I don't want to sound too cheesy, but I do love the North. I love the people. I love the sea. I am so passionate about this, and that is why I am sitting here. However, as leaders, we are going to have to make those tough choices to keep our economy afloat and to try to, at the same time, keep our caribou herds alive. We have to respect our environment and try to find that way through. I am hoping we have a lot of very good experts to help us navigate this. We have not only just one department. We have ENR that we have to partner up with. We have a lot of partnerships with Indigenous governments up North, around us, and we have to always be mindful of that and find collaborative approaches for how we want to navigate this. That is where I stand on this.
This almost sounded like a Commissioner's address speech, but no, I am really passionate about this. Like I said, there are going to be some tough choices, but this is all about balance. That is something I want to say. I really have a lot still. We are one year in, but we still have a few years left. That means there is going to be a lot of consultation with my leaders in my riding and a lot of my constituents, and I really need to get a good, solid pulse of where they want to go. We still have to think about the Akaitcho that would likely be signed. We have to think about those things and the Metis, as well. We can't forget about the Metis and those implications. I just want to leave it at that. I will leave that as a comment. I don't have questions. As I said before, if anything pops up in my head, I usually just shoot an email to the Ministers or the Premier, and that is how I will go about that. Okay. Marsi cho, and thank you very much.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Are there any further comments or questions to the corporate management under Infrastructure on pages 44 and 45? Seeing none, I will call the activity. Infrastructure, corporate management, infrastructure investments, $30,533,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
We will now turn to programs and services on page 46, with information items from page 47 through to 49. Members, any questions comments? Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. If we look at our asset infrastructure, we get that $465 million deficit. Then, if we looked at our roads, I am sure it's another billion. If we look at our airports, it's probably more. Then, I think, if we looked at the Northwest Territories Power Corporation, it would probably be the most terrifying of all of them. I see in here we have a number of hydro projects. We have a number of new kind of Taltson pre-expansion, Bluefish Hydro Upgrade. I am just looking for someone to explain to me the relationship between us spending infrastructure dollars for the Power Corporation and their budget. If we spend this money, does part of it come out of their budget? Do they have an obligation to pay a part of this infrastructure through rate increases? Can someone explain the relationship between NTPC putting together their capital needs and then it ultimately getting into Infrastructure's programs and services capital needs? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. It's getting late in the day. Basically, we provide money to NTPC for projects that they undertake, like facility upgrades, and we'll management projects on their behalf. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. I recognize there is this tension with every jurisdiction and their power corporation and the power corporation supposedly having to run rates that keep their power consistent and allow them to maintain their infrastructure. Then, consistently power corporations do not want to raise rates, so they just do not maintain their infrastructure. Then, the government has to bail them out. Hence, we are subsidizing the Power Corporation, which we have done multiple times and are continuing to do here. My question, though, is: when we build all of these new upgrades and maintenance for the Power Corporation, are they required to go recoup any of that infrastructure cost through a rate increase? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to get Mr. Loutitt to answer that. Thank you.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. The projects that we are funding for NTPC, just for clarification, is ISET money, where it's federal funding where the NTPC pays 25 percent, the feds pay 25 percent, which is charged to the rate payer, only the 25 percent share that is done in this manner. It's actually not GNWT money we are working with. NTPC provides the funding. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair. That is the answer I was looking for, where the 25-percent dollars come from. They ultimately come from NTPC, and in theory, NTPC has to get all of its money through rates. Do we have any information of -- there is quite a lot of infrastructure in here. NTPC is clearly spending money. They need to be spending that money. Do they have plans to go to the public utility board for a rate increase? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to switch gears here to the Taltson expansion pre-construction. Right now, in the South Slave, they have a surplus of power. They actually have the cheapest power in the NWT, and Taltson expansion is a plan to make more power to an area with a surplus. Can I just get a sense of: this Taltson expansion pre-construction money here, I assume it's federal dollars. When is the quickest timeline we would see that, after expansion, it actually connects to somewhere we could sell that power, whether that is down south or whether that is in the North Slave or to a mine? What is the projected timeline to actually sell any of that surplus in the South Slave? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to get Mr. Loutitt to answer that question. Thank you.
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Loutitt
At this point, I am not certain we have an actual timeline. We are still in the early stages. We are still working, obviously, with our Indigenous partners in moving this project forward. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am not sure how much I can get into Power Corporation questions here, but this is ultimately where the Power Corporation's infrastructure finds its way into the budget. In the South Slave right now, we produce that surplus of power. We essentially just spill power over the dam every year because we have no one to sell it to. Alberta is never going to buy it; neither is Saskatchewan. Our power is too expensive. Arguably, some of the mines probably will not even buy it, assuming diesel remains competitive. Some of the people who are buying it are commercial heaters right now. We have allowed them to install infrastructure to heat their buildings with electricity and pinned it to a price point that is competitive with diesel. Are there any plans to expand that? Can we make it available to residents in the South Slave so that they can heat their homes with electricity and actually save money? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. That is the plan with the whole energy strategy. I hate to keep going back to it, but there are some good projects and measurable results within the strategy that really puts to task some of our goals there. I do want to mention that the Taltson expansion is a long ways away. It's not going to happen overnight, and we need to secure some funding. We need to look at some business arrangement, go through the regulatory applications, the construction, tying in. We do have several programs to support this. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see the line item "Renewable Solutions for Off-Grid Diesel - ICIP" money. I am glad to see this. I am really excited for some of the potential for off-grid diesel and renewable solutions there. Can I just get the Minister to expand on what that item is, how much it is, and what it's trying to accomplish? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I ask what project he was referring to again? Sorry.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Understandably, we throw everything in this section from loaders to our technological service centre to power lines, but I'm looking at page 49, the third line down. We have renewable solutions for off-grid diesel. It's federal money, it's estimated to be completed in 2026-2027, so a long way off. How much money is that, and is it renewable diesel? Is that what this money is for? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. It is a line item. There is no project identified yet, but we are working with communities to be able to discuss some of the options with that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to try one more time. Is this possibly money for renewable diesel, or is it just for getting communities that are on off-grid diesel to some other renewable source, and how much money is it? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Madam Chair, it's used for renewables so the electricity or heat. I should probably answer that with the first question. I'm going to ask Mr. Loutitt to see if he wants to expand on this a little bit further. Unless we find the exact dollar amount. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is an item that we would like to get back to you on. It is to do with solar and biomass, but we'd also like to extend an invitation to a presentation on our energy strategy to committee at their convenience. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. One question which I've always had about Taltson and no one has really been able to explain it to me is: we want to expand our power, but we have some of the most expensive power in Canada. Part of that goal is to then connect maybe to Alberta, maybe to Saskatchewan, and sell that power, but their power is far cheaper than ours. Why has the plan never been to just simply connect to one of those southern jurisdictions and instead of expanding our very expensive and aged infrastructure just get into a power purchasing agreement and buy much cheaper power? There is something I'm missing, why that doesn't make sense. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to divert this to Mr. Loutitt. Thank you.
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Loutitt
Thank you, Madam Chair. Our long-term vision is to create more reliable power and be able to supply it to different areas within the Northwest Territories. The long-term vision is to connect to southern Canada. As we have these opportunities for hydro expansions, we feel that that can be part of our long-term vision. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Deputy Minister Loutitt. Noting the clock, committee members, I will now rise and report progress.
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1521
The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.
May I have the report of the Committee of the Whole, please? Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes.