Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to deal with the following items: Tabled Document 181-19(2), Capital Estimates 2021-2022, for the departments of Infrastructure and the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. Next item, Committee Report 4-19(2): Standing Committee on Government Operations Report on the Review of the 2018-2019 Northwest Territories Human Rights Commission Annual Report, and also Committee Report 5-19(2): Standing Committee on Government Operations Report on Review of the 2018-2019 Annual Report of the Information and Privacy Commissioner of the Northwest Territories.

Thank you. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. We will take a break.

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I will now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we will resume consideration of Tabled Document 181-19(2), Capital Estimates 2021-2022, with the Department of Infrastructure. We are on programs and services on page 46, with information items on pages 47 through to 49. Do any Members have questions or comments for the Minister? Sorry. Minister, do you have witnesses?

Yes, I do, Madam Chair.

Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses to the Chamber. Minister, will you please introduce your witnesses for the record.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have with me today Steve Loutitt, who is the acting deputy minister. I also have Robert Jenkins, who is the ADM for energy and environment.

Masi, Madam Chair. [Translation] When we say infrastructure, we are talking about things that are going to be built in our community. This is the item that we are on. I have one item. We've been talking about Whati, and also the elders have been mentioning this over the years. They have been talking about having hydro to their community. When did they have a change of decision? I want to know what the department is doing on this topic, regarding electricity to Whati. [End of translation]

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Whati transmission line is a key initiative under the 2030 Energy Strategy. Just to put this in perspective, the project would displace 500,000 litres of diesel energy currently used for power generation in Whati and reduce greenhouse gases by 1.4 kilotonnes annually. The Government of the Northwest Territories is committed to partnering with the Tlicho Government to advance this Whati transmission line. Madam Chair, that's where we're at with this project right now. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.

Masi, Madam Chair. This particular one used to be mini-hydro; now, it's a transmission line. The Minister talked about partnership with the Tlicho Government. I know there has been a lot of discussion over the years. We're still talking about it. A lot of elders have passed on. They have always stated that they can't even have dried fish hanging up outside because of the heavy black smoke out of the diesel generators in the community. This Whati transmission line, are we heavily dependent on a federal contribution, as well, or is this directly between the GNWT and the Tlicho Government? Masi.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to turn this over to Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Monfwi.

Masi, Madam Chair. I'm just curious about the time frame. Since we have an all-weather road going through the community now, with this transmission line, obviously, it will be much easier to connect to the community. The submission of a proposal, I am very surprised that it's not in with the federal government yet. Like I said, we've been talking about this since mini-hydro, and now the transmission line. Once the submission is initiated, what will be the time frame? If all goes well with the federal government, shovelling the dirt, I'm just curious on the time frame itself, Madam Chair. Masi.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Member is correct. We did work on the technical study, the preliminary environmental studies, and a potential additional traditional knowledge of the land use studies. Once the routing and the feasibility work is completed, Infrastructure will work toward federal funding under the ICIP program. This would not likely begin until late 2021; that's the timeline. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.

Masi, Madam Chair. Since there was a big shift from mini-hydro to transmission line, one would assume that the community of Whati has been actively engaged. If so, I'd like to get more detailed information, probably from the Minister, not right now but later on. What kind of engagement have taken place from mini-Hydro until today? Just a comment to the Minister if she can follow up on that? Masi.

Thank you, Member for Monfwi. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Absolutely. We will get the Member a little bit more detail information and the specific timelines on where we're at with the project. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi? No. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Marsi, Madam Chair. Just going through this long list here, I counted 37 items for the project listing, and again, I only see one. It's frustrating, very frustrating. I did have some questions on the one project here that's clearly listed here, Lutselk'e, the Lutselk'e Power Plant. I just want to ask the Minister when, this project, can we expect to see up and running and to completion and just give an idea, an update, to the House on when it's going to be started and finished. Marsi cho.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will tell you in one second here. Actually, Madam Chair, I would like to divert this to Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Marsi, Madam Chair, and thank you for that response. What is the total cost of this project? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will divert this question over to Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

There's a little bit of a bright light at the end of the tunnel for me in terms of this whole capital plan booklet. I'm glad to see there's some work being done, but as I said, I think there could have been a lot more. I'm just going to turn my attention to some of the various items here on page 49. I just wanted to see if there's any ballpark estimate of what else is being spent in the Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh riding in terms of the work being done? Marsi cho.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to ask Mr. Jenkins. He probably has a detailed list there. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh, can you clarify?

Marsi, Madam Chair. Yes, I will absolutely clarify. In the various items up here, I'm seeing hydro infrastructure. There's Raven fuel management, renewable solutions for off-grid diesel, Taltson expansion. Those four items, if you can give me a ballpark of what benefits this will be coming towards my riding? Marsi cho.

Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you. I don't want to speculate, but I bet if you did look at this, you won't find a whole lot of benefit. It just goes to my point. I've kind of been seeing this over and over, almost like a mantra. It's disappointing to see the lack of help we've been getting. I need to go back to my constituents and tell them why there's a lack of love, for a better word, in terms of contracts, the construction for this year. I want to hear some assurances.

I'll have some questions for the Premier later on, but we need to keep these projects going and spread out so there's more equity because right now there isn't. There's a lot of aging infrastructure in my riding, and we need to keep the upkeep. We still need to keep people working. We still need to keep these infrastructures up and showing the government that they do care for their citizens, right across the board, not just for the larger centres. Again, I'm very frustrated. We're not quite done yet here. Like I said, hopefully, I'll see a little bit more come through down the pipe here for the riding. Marsi cho.

Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I'm going to go back to the Whati line that my colleague was raising up there. I'm just wondering if Infrastructure has considered routing the line along the TASR road for future planning of development. If we're going to be put in a roadway, the idea that maybe later on, that will spur other development or even homes or things along that roadway. I'm sure we'll see cabins and such pop up. Wouldn't it make sense for one infrastructure corridor? I do understand there are money considerations with coming straight off of the source. However, if we're looking at a longer-term planning, maybe we want to think about that as actually as being a linear infrastructure corridor?

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think that's an excellent idea. I think the Member kind of understands where the need to be able to capture some of our 2030 strategy and to be able to meet some of our goals. That is something that the department will look into. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Of the projects in the list here on these couple of pages, several of them are denoted as having the federal funding pots, the ICIP and the DMAF. Could the Minister provide us with an idea of which of these projects we have actually secured the 75-cent dollars for and which are just ones that we're hoping to secure the funding for still? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to defer this to Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't have any more questions. Just more of a comment. I'd like for the Minister to commit to no tricked-out vehicles, that many of these ones that are listed in here are not full of all the perks and top end of the line. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. I'll take that as a comment. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I want to follow up on my colleague's questions, colleague from Monfwi, about the Whati transmission line. I raised a number of concerns with this project in the last Assembly in a rather hurried review of the capital budget that was carried out in one day in August of 2019. This kind of project just kind of came out of thin air. I'm just wondering: there was money appropriated in the 2020-2021 Capital Estimates for this project. Was any of it actually spent, and if so, how much? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The budget for this project was about $33 million. I'm going to see if Mr. Jenkins has the amount that we have spent to date. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member.

Thanks, Madam Chair. There was a lot of work done on mini-hydro for Whati using the Lac La Martre falls, very close to the community, and there was some preliminary work also done on mini-hydro for Gameti and Wekweeti, as well. As I understood from the information that I tabled in the last Assembly, you could probably do all three of those communities as mini-hydro for the same cost of this 60-kilometre over from Snare. Has the department looked at the relative costs of those three mini-hydro projects versus the Whati transmission line? Mahsi, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm trying to find the answer here. I'm going to defer this to Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I think we're jumping the gun here and including money for the Whati transmission line in the capital estimates when we haven't even made an application to the federal government yet, apparently, for this project. There hasn't been any analysis of the cost of a transmission line versus the cost of having three mini-hydro projects that could serve the three Tlicho communities. I just don't understand why this project is being pushed without that kind of analysis. Can the Minister commit to provide that analysis to this side of the House? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Absolutely. If the Member would like more detailed information on the project, that is something we can provide.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Great, yes. I really appreciate it, because it's my understanding that I think we could get mini-hydro projects that each community could actually control and have a self-sufficient energy future. At the same cost of building this big transmission line, they could become self-sufficient and control their own energy future. That's the kind of future I'm interested in, Madam Chair. Of course, that would need to be done in consultation with the Tlicho Government and all of the communities.

I want to move over to the Inuvik wind turbine project. I know that the Gwich'in Land and Water Board just rendered their decision on some issues around the land-use permit that was submitted for that project, and I am furiously trying to skim the decision myself that came out yesterday. It looks like the board has ruled that GNWT can rightfully have a land-use permit, but that they really need to consider this issue of whether the area is really part of the reindeer-grazing reserve. I have kind of a technical question here for the Minister: why did we not change the area that the turbine project is supposed to be located on? Why didn't we change the regulation and take it out of the reindeer reserve before trying to push this project through? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to ask Mr. Jenkins to provide some rationale about why the planning was done in previous years. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Where I'm going to go with this is: I am very worried that this project is going to get referred to an environmental assessment. There was no reason whatsoever that that had to happen, had our government actually properly consulted and worked with the Gwich'in Government in relation to this project. I also don't think it's a great idea where GNWT willy-nilly decides that it can reallocate pieces of land that have been designated for certain purposes for other purposes. You can't take stuff out of a reindeer-grazing reserve and unilaterally decide you're going to change it to do something else. Are we going to follow our own laws, or not? If you are going to change the law in that region, you need to consult the Indigenous governments, as well.

This is a head's up for the Minister: with other infrastructure projects, including this one, we should not be willy-nilly deciding that we're going to change areas that are set out in regulations and unilaterally decide you're going to change it to something else. I'd like to get an explanation as to why we think we have the ability to change something that is a reindeer-grazing reserve to a wind turbine without going through due process, changing the regulations, and consulting the appropriate Indigenous government? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Inuvik wind project, again, is one of our key initiatives, so that is something that we are working toward. We have been waiting for the Gwich'in Land and Water Board to be able to give a ruling, and we are quite excited about the ruling that was done today. We continue to engage with communities and Indigenous organizations, so we can start to advance the project and ensure that participation and partnership in the development of any energy solutions here in the territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I'm just going to read one line, one line, from the most recent ruling that came out yesterday: "The Gwich'in Land and Water Board suggests that the GNWT is best placed to enforce its own legislation." That includes, this is me editorializing, the reindeer-grazing reserve. You cannot just unilaterally decide that you are going to change something that is designated for a certain purpose under a regulation and decide that you are going to use it for something else without changing the regulation itself. That is against the law, and we are breaking our own laws. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. I'll take that as a comment. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to go to fuel storage capacity with respect to Hay River. I understand why we are looking at this, but the question I have is: why is the government doing this when we actually have a private sector in Hay River that could possibly handle it? Even in Enterprise, there is an industrial yard going in there, which I understand they have rail car service there and they may have extra or be looking at fuel storage there. I am just wondering if the government has actually talked to that proponent and really looked at this issue because it's going to add environmental liability to the government, depending where these tanks are. I suspect that they are probably going to be in the old town, on the island of Hay River, close to water sources. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The MTS, the department, is looking and studying and considering the construction of a buffer fuel storage capacity at the Hay River marine terminal, so that is kind of where we are at now and also looking at the needs of the people in Hay River. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Madam Chair, my concern is that we are turning MTS, by the looks of it, into almost a private-sector type business, competing against private sector. I would like the government to reconsider this and gauge the private sector to see if there is anybody who can provide that service. I understand that there are funds made available, supposedly by federal government, with some costs provided by the territorial government, as well. I would just like to know what those numbers are. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I hear the Member's concern about working with the private sector, and if that is an option for the department, then, absolutely, that is something we can look at. In terms of the number, I am going to send this to Mr. Jenkins, looking for the costs. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. Those are the numbers I have, as well. I am pleased to hear that the Minister will consider talking to private sector and try to include them in on this, as well. The next thing I want to go to here is the transmission line, the Fort Providence transmission line. I would ask the Minister: where is that line going to start, and where is it going to end? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to get Mr. Jenkins to provide this information.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Knowing that Northland Utilities actually provides the power to Kakisa and to Fort Providence, what involvement will they have in that line, or is this line going to be part of the potential takeover when we talk about the Hay River franchise? Are we also looking at Kakisa's and Fort Providence's potential takeover by the Power Corporation? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to talk a little bit about the project, using the surplus hydropower, that is available at the existing Taltson system to eliminate the use of diesel for electrical generation in the communities of Fort Providence, Kakisa, Dory Point. The delivery of hydropower to the customers and communities would also reduce the cost of power. I am going to revert the question over to Mr. Jenkins to provide more detail on what the plan is for the project. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Jenkins.

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's interesting. I do not oppose the idea. That is for sure. We are always looking for cheaper power in the south. When I read the news, I see that the Power Corporation, we're spilling water over the dam and we've got surplus power, but we are not utilizing it in the communities to promote manufacturing or to promote electric heat. I understand that the reason that we are doing this, possibly, is because we are waiting for the big mine to show up around Pine Point or wherever. We seem to be waiting for that big white elephant, and it never seems to come, when we could be actually using that source of power to reduce the cost of power in the South Slave area, which would then, in turn, spur the economy, as well, like the manufacturing sector and whatever other businesses. I am just wondering what are your thoughts on that, Madam.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think the project is one of the best projects we have in this energy strategy. There is opportunity within the many different projects that are happening here in the South, whether it be whatever region, that we need to be able to look and see what works best, what is cost-saving, and try to help us meet our 2030 Energy Strategy. This is something that our department is looking into. Thank you.