Thank you, Madam Chair. To answer that question, I'll ask the deputy minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Debates of March 10th, 2020
This is page numbers 557 - 606 of the Hansard for the 19th Assembly, 2nd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was thanks.
Topics
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. Related to the specific example the Member has brought forward, the board set a split security for land and water in the reasons for decision. All of the security was then put into the water licence and none in the land use permit. The federal government delegated the authority for land-related liabilities to the Minister of Lands because of the Lands Act. It is under the Minister of Lands, and water liabilities to the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources because the Waters Act is under the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources. The Minister of ENR cannot legally accept security on behalf of Lands. As such, ENR could accept only the water-related security. The company is pursuing an amendment to their land use permit to address this security issue. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I understand that this is a recent development. We've had devolution for almost five, six years now, and this is the first time this has happened where the Minister has refused to accept financial security. While the amount here is not a big one, a large amount, I'm worried about what this means for the future, and whether the Minister is going to continue to refuse security that includes land and water amounts. How do we even decide what's land and water? Is a tailings dam, is it land or water-related? This is not very helpful, and I want to know what the fix is, because this is going to increasingly put our government at financial risk, and I haven't heard what the fix is yet. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. To get into that detail, I'll ask the deputy minister to answer that question. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
March 10th, 2020
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The department has to abide by what it has put forward and the reasons for decision. We will certainly encourage the board to make sure that what is in the reasons for decision is reflected in the land use permit and in the water licence. If that had been the case, this would not have been an issue, so we will work with the land and water boards and encourage them to ensure that what is reflected in the reasons for decision is put into the land use permit and water licence, and then, this will not be an issue. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I think this is going to be a longer conversation than my remaining four minutes. Does the reclaim model that the department actually pays to have developed and updated, does it include a way of calculating, or making separate calculations for land and water-related securities? I don't think it does, but I'd like to get that confirmed. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. The model does allow for separate calculations of land- versus water-related securities, and is that done on some sort of rule of thumb of 60/40 split, or is this defensible, legally, in some other say, a court of law, or do we need to clarify our legislation in some way? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. To get the full detail on this, I'll ask the acting assistant deputy minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Richea
Thank you, Madam Chair. The reclaim model as used to calculate security does split land- and water-related liabilities. Over the years of doing estimates, approximately 60/40 split between land and water has been the average, but it's site-specific and it's component-specific, depending on the reclamation plan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I appreciate the response, and that was my understanding of it, as well. It's done through, sort of, rules of thumb rather than any system that's based in legislation or regulation, and I think that's a problem. The land and water boards, they always come up with a combined estimate of land- and water-related security, and I guess, in this case, the one we're discussing, they didn't split it between the land use permit versus the water licence, but I think that's certainly not a science, and it's an art, and we need to fix this.
Basically, the only fix I've heard is that ENR is going to talk, in future submissions, will tell the board that they need to make a split between land and water, and that the securities need to be split that way. Is that the only solution that we have? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. First, I think I'll ask the assistant deputy minister to clarify what he said, and to answer the second part with your permission. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 572
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration Of Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 573
Richea
Thank you, Madam Chair. To clarify, on average, it's about a 60/40 split between land and water, but it is very site-specific and component-specific. For example, some activities during reclamation under the liability would be 100 percent land. Other activities could be 100 percent water. On average, it's 60/40, but it's not a rule of thumb. It could be different depending on circumstances. When we prepare security estimates and provide that to the board for its consideration, and setting the amount in land use permit and water licence, we do provide a land and water split. We work with the companies on the security estimates, and we work with the company on that land and water split.