Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 30-19(2), 2020-2021 Main Estimates, to include the NWT housing portion, and to address the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. Marsi cho.

Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. We will take a short recess.

---SHORT RECESS

I will call the committee back to order. We have agreed to consider Tabled Document 30-19(2), Main Estimates 2020-2021, and we are continuing on with the NWT Housing Corporation from yesterday. I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort the witnesses back into the Chamber. Minister, if you could introduce your witnesses for the record.

Thank you, Madam Chair. To the right of me, I have Mr. Carpenter, and to the left, I have Mr. Martin.

Thank you, Minister. We will start where we left off. We are going over programs and district operations, beginning on page 372 with information items on pages 374 to 376. Questions? Are there any questions for the program and district operations? Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to the South Slave district, how many technical advisors do we have there? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We have one in Fort Smith and two in Hay River.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Is there any consideration to add any positions in Hay River? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would have to do an assessment of the volume of work that is done in that district, and I would have to verify if there is a need for another position. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

That's all, thank you.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Mine is along the same sort of lines. Can someone tell me where all the technical advisors are located and whether there have been any changes in positions proposed in this year that's coming up? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Currently, we do have technical advisors in each of the regional offices, and going forward, looking at the changes that we may have, I'd have to look at the employment numbers that I have. I want to make sure that they're all staffed, but we normally would have two in each district. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Have there been any changes proposed? I'm looking at the active positions on page 375. It doesn't look like there are any changes in staff from last year to the proposed year. Are there any changes in technical advisor positions? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Member is right; there are no changes in the number of technical advisors that we do have, but going forward and looking at the amount of infrastructure that we might be working with and looking at the renovation of the homes that we do have, the public housing units, I will be looking at that and reviewing to see if there is a need for additional employees required. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I think page 374 outlines contributions in a number of areas. Is this money, then, that flows from the Housing Corporation to the local housing organizations, the LHOs? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to be correct. The Member mentioned local housing authorities or the district offices? Can he please clarify? Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Can the Minister tell me: where does this money flow through to? Because it's listed here as contributions. Is this to third parties? Is it to the district offices? Is it to the LHOs, the local housing authorities? Where does the money flow to? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Member. I just needed to understand that question. The money flows through the district offices. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. If it flows to the district offices, is it coming from the Housing Corporation, and then it's given to the district offices? It just seems like kind of a weird way to set this up. Usually, the contribution pages in the other departmental budgets are where our government is providing money to a third party, but this is to the district offices. Is that correct? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, that is correct. We also provide funding, too, to the local housing authorities. The Housing Corporation is, I want to say, a unique set-up. We do have the local housing authorities, we do have the boards, we do have the district offices, and we also have headquarters and the office of the executive. The money that is flowed through is for the district operations. I really want to be clear that we have the district operations, and we also have the administration of the public housing units. I hope that clarifies; I hope the answer was fine. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I think I'm just getting more and more confused. On 373, I see allocations to a number of district offices, and then there is sort of a programs development and implementation, then a vice-president's office. Why is this listed as contributions on this page? Does any of this money actually flow through to third parties, like entities outside of the Housing Corporation? Thanks, Madam Chair. Sorry. Habitat for Humanity is obviously a third-party organization. Does any of this other money flow through to third-party organizations, or is it all administered by the district offices? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I know it might seem kind of confusing to understand. The way that I understand it and the way that I work with the budget that we have is that we have a lot of housing programs that are very unique. We have housing support initiatives that do include the third parties, as well, that we're looking at, at the community level, where the community and bands, charter communities, Indigenous groups, or stakeholders are wanting to go forward and deliver programs. For an example, I just want to say very quickly, if we needed stairs and ramps and doors replaced, I'm looking at a third-party opportunities; I would look at the bands and the stakeholders in the smaller areas, that we would work in conjunction and provide funding at a proposal setting. At a proposal setting, if the project costs $50,000, I would like to work with that third party where they would program-deliver within that community. I will have Jim elaborate on this a little bit more, for more clarification. Thank you, Madam Chair. Sorry, Mr. Martin.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Martin.

Thank you, Mr. Martin. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. As I said, I just keep getting more and more confused here. All of this money on page 374 flows through from the district offices to third parties? Is that what I believe Mr. Martin said? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister.

How can I explain this? As the Housing Corporation, we have funding that is available. We have the district offices. According to programs that we deliver, each district office would be delivering programs that are identified. We would flow through the money from headquarters into each of the districts equally, depending on the amount of programs and services that they would require and need. Then, they would deliver those programs on behalf of us at the executive level. I am going to have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on that a little bit more. I hope that makes sense, but if it doesn't, please keep on asking those questions so I could make sure I get through to Member. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Carpenter.

Thank you, Mr. Carpenter. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I think that I am going to have to go offline, because I still don't understand the way that this is set out or accounted for. These are programs that are administered through the Housing Corporation. It looks like money flows through the district offices, but it doesn't quite add up with money on the previous page. Maybe it's too late in the day or something; I just don't understand this. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I really want to make sure that I answered this question correctly. Is the Member looking at the grants and contributions for each of the district offices that he says does not add up to the number on page 374?

Member for Frame Lake, did you just want to clarify?

Thanks, Madam Chair. I think I have spent the last seven or eight minutes trying to understand what the relationship is of the contributions listed on page 374 to the line items on 373, and I haven't gotten to the bottom of it in a way that I can understand. Probably, with the Minister and her assistants there, I am not going to get to the bottom of it in the next 24 hours. I am going to have to go offline and ask them to better explain this. Thanks, Madam Chair.

All right. We will move on, then. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Marsi cho, Madam Chair. I am looking at page 374, as well. I just want to make a quick comment on this. This is one of those items that I get a lot of complaints about from people in my constituency, especially when accessing things like the SAFE program and CARE. It's just frustrating, because a lot of the time, there are barriers for things like land tenure and whatnot, but I'll start with my questioning now. I know that, for programs such as SAFE and seniors aging in place retrofits and repairs, they're $10,000 each. To me, sometimes, that's just not enough for a lot of repairs that happen. Anything that happens is really expensive in the home for a lot of our units. I'm going to ask the Minister: have there been any recent reviews of these programs to increase this amount to help those who have barriers to getting these programs? Marsi cho.

Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am familiar with the question that the Member is asking about, and I do understand that land tenure and insurances do cause barriers for our program delivery. Going forward, I am going to be doing a review of the current programs that we do deliver. I do realize that the cost of material and the cost to get these improvements complete and done in a timely manner and to be acknowledged in the applications for rejection or approval, but I would like to see the majority of them approved going forward. I will just have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on this a little bit more. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Carpenter.

Thank you, Mr. Carpenter. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Marsi, Madam Chair, and thank you for the response. I am looking at this a little more, too. I'm reading between the lines here. I just mentioned about barriers such as insurance and land tenure, and I looked at the fuel tank. I know, coming from the insurance background, a lot of risks, when they are assessed by a lot of these insurance companies, if you live in a place like Hay River, Fort Smith, or Yellowknife, the insurance rates are reasonable, and they're really dependent on how close you are to, say, a fire department. If you live in a place like Lutselk'e, or even Detah is considered outside of that range, insurance rates skyrocket, and it's just simply not affordable if you want to, say, protect your assets, if you own your own home.

Say we go down this road, and yes, we'll have own ownership programs, and, yes, I've finally got my home, but you have to worry about insurance in small communities. It's stifling, because the cost of living is so high already, and you're going to ask somebody to pay $3,000 to just insure the home for a year? It's a really, really tall ask already. A lot of us even living in larger centres, like here in Yellowknife, that is still a really expensive proposition. You still have to budget for that. I guess my question to the Minister, and this may be a question that I think some other Ministers might look at, maybe the Minister of Finance, is: what are we going to do about this insurance problem in the small communities? Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am familiar with this, as well, because it's come up quite often in looking at the insurances within the smaller communities. I do understand. Land tenure is also an issue, as well, because you need the land in order to insure your home. I see the barriers like that. Right now, the Housing Corporation is in conversation with CIBC. The conversation is not anything that is going to be committed, but it's a conversation that is happening. Also, looking at the insurances is that what can we provide that's affordable and available to the people of the Northwest Territories. Looking at the insurances, I am very interested in securing our Northwest Territories Housing Corporation units. If it is our personal units going forward, I'm interested in making sure that we have security on them. Whether we have engaged a mortgage with a client to making sure that if the house were to burn down or something were to happen, if this were to happen five times throughout the territory, we don't have $500,000, $800,000 times ten to be rebuilding these structures. We're just trying to look for initiatives going forward that would best secure the people of the Northwest Territories that have the programming with the Housing Corporation or public housing as well. I hope that answers your question. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the response. Just listening to that, I think there's a big, broader issue of insurance in the North. I think that's probably something I'll ask in the House here later on because I think this is something we need to talk about and figure out some common sense approaches to this. Again, this goes to the cost of living in the North. It's so huge, and we're going to need to find appropriate ways to help people in the North to protect their assets, especially in small communities. Marsi cho. I have nothing further.

Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Did you have a response to that? Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in regards to the home insurance, I just really want to be clear, as well, that through the Housing Corporation, we have a variety of programs, but the areas where I'm interested in, in insuring, is home ownership. I'm not interested in insuring the units that we're building stairs and we're building ramps. I'm not interested in doing that. I'm interested in the long-term security for the client if they do become homeowners. I want to make sure that they are secured and they do have the financial security going forward should anything happen to their own personal unit. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. I'll move onto Member for Yellowknife Centre.

Thank you, Madam Chair. One of the, I'm going to just say, frankly, struggles that I've had with the Housing Corporation is to feel that the corporation has embraced its role as a social housing agency versus a landlord of social housing. There was a very promising initiative that was discussed at an anti-poverty round table about 18 months ago in which the Housing Corporation was piloting a housing stability program for its public housing tenants in Behchoko. This was the kind of program that was offered when I worked at the YWCA. The intention of the program was to do troubleshooting with tenants so they could stabilize their housing and develop good tenancy records so that they could obtain housing on the market if they had the money to do so. I think that was a pilot program, and I'm interested to know whether the pilot has been evaluated and what the results of that evaluation are? Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Member, for your comment. I am familiar with this program, as well. It is due to expire. We did end up creating a new position. It was a housing stability worker that was working out of Yellowknife but back and forth to Behchoko. It was the first of our pilots, and it did work very well. It's something that I'm interested in working with and expanding, going forward, throughout the Northwest Territories because the issues are quite common throughout the territory dealing with homelessness and having people transition from public housing into the housing units, and the social impacts as well, too. Unfortunately, the position is to expire March 31^st, but I'm looking at that position to continue. I will have, Mr. Carpenter elaborate on the program, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Carpenter.

Thank you, Mr. Carpenter. Member for Yellowknife Centre.

Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a real good-news/bad-news story. The program worked, but it's going to expire. Why wasn't this position evaluated in advance of the expiry date? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Being the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation, I'm looking for very strong initiatives and a very strong, positive approach. This was one of our successful positions that we've had dealing with the current situation we have throughout the Northwest Territories. I am invested into this position and positions likes this. Going forward, we do have an expiry date of March 31^st, but it will be continuing. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife Centre.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the Minister for that. Does that mean that the person who occupies this position will still be employed by April 1^st? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The person that was employed and working within this position, very strong skilled and very experienced with the Housing Corporation, I did have other plans for her, so we might be working with this a little bit differently. She does have a lot of skill that I would like to use in another area, so there might be a new person to fill this position. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife Centre.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't understand the point of blowing up a program that is working. It seems to me that given the fact that this program was in place for at least a couple of years, and the end date was a known end date, that the assessment of the program and the budgeting for a continuation since it proved successful, could have been done. The Minister is a new minister, but I don't know why the Housing Corporation didn't plan for success instead of waiting for this whole thing to lapse. Could someone explain that to me? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I looked at this position, and it's very successful. Unfortunately, I don't know why the position wasn't assessed prior to the expiration date of the end of the two-year pilot project. I will have Mr. Carpenter elaborate on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Carpenter.

Thank you, Mr. Carpenter. Member for Yellowknife Centre.

Again, I'm going to be very blunt. This is very poor practice. The Integrated Case Management program in the Department of Justice was a pilot program, and it was evaluated before its expiration date. Then the case was made for continued funding for the Integrated Case Management plan. That's what good planning looks like. The idea that this program has to lapse -- there aren't funds in it in this budget, so likely it won't be until the next budget that we see the funds for this. In the meantime, this person was effective. The program was effective. The program could be scaled up to communities and other parts of the NWT. I hear my colleagues talking about housing tenancy issues all the time, to do with arrears, damage, and other issues of that kind. My final question here will be: when do you anticipate coming to us to ask for money to continue this position and expand this program? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Member, for your comments. I do see the importance of this position. Once I heard about this position and I got to meet them and see what this position entailed and the success that had been brought forward in Behchoko and looking at the success that it's had, I wanted to look at this, as well, and see what it would look like if we expanded this out into the smaller communities and the effects that it would have. Going forward, this position, with the budget and where we're at right now, I would like to come forward in June and to look at this position. I want to add a little more to it, as well, and looking at the areas, as well. I'm really mindful of Nunakput and the Mackenzie Delta and the Beaufort-Delta, as well, that we do have significant situation up there. I want to be very creative with this position and look at the success and look long-term at this in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. We will move on to Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. My first question is in regard to the district operation budget reflected on page 373. I've noticed that the North Slave, South Slave, Nahendeh districts all have increased budgets, whereas the Beaufort-Delta district has actually a decreased budget. Is that reflective of the need of each region? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This would have to do with the amortization within this budget. I'm going to have Mr. Martin elaborate on that and answer the question. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Martin.

Thank you, Mr. Martin. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much. I'm wondering, if the amortization had impacted our budget by decreasing the Beaufort-Delta, why did it drive up the budget values for the other three regions, where the Sahtu basically stayed pretty consistent? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will just pass the question on over to Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Carpenter.

Thank you, Mr. Carpenter. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The money that the Housing Corporation received from the federal government, how was it distributed throughout the regions? Was it distributed per capita or by population? Was it distributed by need? Was it distributed evenly throughout each region? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The money is distributed evenly. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Is that evenly by population? Evenly just straight up divided between each region regardless of population? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The money is divided equally throughout the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm wondering if the Minister can define "evenly." Is it divided evenly based on the five regions, or is it divided evenly based on need? Is it divided evenly based on population? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.