This is page numbers 709 - 738 of the Hansard for the 19th Assembly, 2nd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was going.

Rylund Johnson

Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to thank my colleague from Frame Lake for bringing this motion forward, because it's an interesting process we go through where we all set our priorities and then Cabinet sets the mandate. A lot of that done is done in confidence for good reason, because that's consensus government, but there has to be a public debate on this. Ultimately, I am not in support of the motion because I don't believe we are actually having the debate right now on the Slave Geological Province Corridor. This is $2.5 million to begin environmental assessment, Madam Chair. Environmental assessment work is fundamental to telling us some more facts about this project, to answering some of the large questions about what its effect will be on the Bathurst caribou. In our mandate, we say this work is going to carry on until 2024, Madam Chair. I think we have to put these things in perspective, that we have been talking about all of these major infrastructure projects for years, decades in some cases. Largely, they are a dream of the mining industry. It's a dream to expand Taltson, which would find cheaper power, and then put a road through the Slave Geological, then to connect it to Grays Bay Port project, a multibillion-dollar investment that I think we could never afford. There are some valid questions to be asked, you know: if we are going to slowly put money into this, a million dollars here and there, and then it's just going to come to a point where we cannot afford to construct it, would that not have been money better spent?

However, Madam Chair, I think that the environmental assessment work is key to answering some of the questions I have. There are so many what-ifs about this project. Eventually, this Assembly or the next or one of these Assemblies will have a debate on whether to fund that construction, but I do not believe that is the debate we are having at this time. I struggle because we developed these priorities in Caucus and we all did not agree on all of them, but that is the nature of consensus government, so I struggle to now try to remove one of our priorities and to remove essentially a mandate item that was agreed with all 19 Members. Ultimately, there are some huge questions, and I think we have all raised them: the future of mining in the Northwest Territories; will it employ enough Northerners; will it provide benefits to our residents; what will the effect be on the Bathurst caribou herd; is this project viable without the Grays Bay Port project; is it viable without Taltson? I don't actually have answers to these, and I do not believe anyone does because there are a lot of moving variables.

The fact of the matter is that the most important decision in any of this is outside of our controls, and that is commodity prices, Madam Chair. What drives whether this business case makes sense is the price of the minerals we have in the ground. One of the interesting things about this is it also is in Akaitcho territory, which is another huge question mark for me in this process, is that: should we be building a highway through Akaitcho territory, knowing that eventually that will be their land? If this was the decision, to build the highway right now and the Akaitcho was unsettled and the Bathurst caribou was in the state it's in, I would not be in favour of this. However this is the decision whether to do an environmental assessment, which will help me with many of those questions, Madam Chair.

Ultimately, this is also 75 percent funded from the federal government. We have a contribution agreement in place. I keep telling Cabinet: go and get money from the federal government. At some point, I know we are driven by the allure of 25-cent dollars, and that is a bit of a problem to our sovereignty, but the reality is that, if the feds are willing to give us 25-cent dollars, I will take them. I keep directing Cabinet to do so, so I don't feel comfortable voting to remove what is 75-percent dollars. Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. To the motion. Member for Monfwi.

Jackson Lafferty

Jackson Lafferty Monfwi

Masi, Madam Chair. [Translation] Today, we know this is a big issue. We know for a fact it has been an ongoing issue for a very long time, and now it's in front of us. All of us today, all of the Ministers and MLAs, have spoken, and some support it. Some do not support it. Right now, the federal government had money there. We see $2.5 million. That is a lot of money that we are looking at, seeing it today, and we see for a fact, in the communities, we know we need training in all communities and departments, and also we know that we have concerns about the caribou because we know, when the mining was to develop a few years ago, there were concerns from the elders about the caribou, all our elders. Right now, we know for a fact that we will be crossing Akaitcho land. Are we giving them support about doing this project? I do not see them standing behind us to begin this project. Right now I see, if we are going to go ahead, right now, at Frank Channel, that has to also be included, but right now that has been put aside and they put this project first. For me, that is not right, and I don't like it. I went to see the Minister this morning, and I talked about what can we do so that we can put forward, put all that forward, because, for myself, I would like to be able to face the people, and this is my work that I do.

So then I ask questions to our own people, my people, and I know for so long our elders had spoken about the caribou, of course, and to protect the caribou for so long, so long, so long, and now, but not with this. The department, with this and the project that is going to happen, it sounds really well, good, because it would be a development. When the Stanton hospital, the Dehcho and all that, you know, we sit, we see all that business, and yet it's all taken and coming out of our territory. Right now, you see the highway that is going into Whati, I want to see a lot of my people working, but I do not see that, and so I see the business, it's not from our territory, and that is what I see right now. What we say and what we do is two different things, Madam Chair. Right now, with this, a winter road, an all-season road, is this good? I have to say there is no guarantee in investment. We build this road. Is there going to be a project going? Is there going to be a development? Is there going to be some more mining development?

Right now, we know for sure that most of the mines are closing, and the only thing that we have is just only on the winter road. A lot of stuff is also happening right now. I know a lot of elders, a few of them are with me. It's like it's unbalanced because right now, when you say (inaudible) in English and on caribou and development, we should be able to see it as one, but at times we don't see that at all. Right now, it's not my language, Madam Chair. Caribou, I am talking about caribou. Right now, there is no caribou in our country today. For that reason, I hear that daily, every time I see an elder. That is for them.

So, with this project, what is going to happen? We have to worry about that, so I have to say so many projects are happening. We have issues like housing, education, today, now virus within Canada and the Northwest Territories, and where is that going? What is going to happen? We are going to spend millions and millions to let disease spread, we hear. Now we hear $1 billion. In Tlicho, we can't say "1 billion." [English translation not available], you just add million, million, million. Then it's you have to say a billion, but I have to say right now, whatever we have to review, there is so much to do yet. Madam Chair, I really, really am caught in the middle. At times, as for myself, I know I spoke on it yesterday, that bridge at Frank Channel. I would love to see that on the project that is going to happen before what we have in front of us right now. Right now, I see all the Members. Right now, I know that I would have supporters, yes. This, this project that we are talking, it's an issue. It should be second, but now, right now, it's been twisted. Well, what's going to happen if the Frank Channel would go right through right now? How are we going to be able to get anything, access to anywhere at all? We will be stranded here. As a leader, because I live and so I think about stuff like that every day, over the Frank Channel, I see over that. That bridge is over 50 years old, Madam Chair, so many issues to be dealt with.

Right now, this motion that we're in, Frame Lake, thank you very much. Minister, you spoke on, thank you very much. The Minister has a job. They look forward to do their work and their project. Is this the right thing? We're all here, 19, which we would be able to come across these issues, so this is just about as much as I would say right now. Ten million that we see on the paper, and $2.2 million from GNWT, but some are saying, it's like we're going to do research, and so, maybe much later on, we would see it as a project that would be able to go ahead.

When we begin an issue or even assessment doing research, or maybe we would leave it aside. When you begin, and then, it's like you keep going forward because, and then, you end up with $1 billion or so, maybe in about 10 or 15 years, or $1.5 billion that we would be able to maybe spend.

So, in Tlicho, we don't have a billion in Tlicho, but right now, we don't have that kind of a billion on a piece of paper as GNWT. Our government, and watering down some money to us, so, Madam Chair, we know there will be a motion passed. For now, I am thinking, how I might be able to vote. I said it before, this is not me. I am here for the elders. Most of the elders are not here with us today. They were my great friends, so this is how I am going to vote, thinking of my elders. This is all I'm going to say, Madam Chair. Masi. [End of translation]

The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member for Monfwi. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Steve Norn

Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh

Marsi cho, Madam Chair. I move that, pursuant to 6(2), Committee of the Whole sit beyond the hour of daily adjournment for the purpose of the continued consideration of Tabled Document 43-19(2).

The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

The motion is in order and is non-debatable. I will call the question. All in favour? All opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.

---Carried

We will continue on. Member for Frame Lake? To the motion. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

R.J. Simpson

R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to reiterate some of the comments that were made by my Cabinet colleagues here, and I will be voting against this motion. Part of my responsibilities as the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment is the Income Assistance program. There has been a lot of discussion in this House recently about the Income Assistance program, and particularly about how we can better help those who are Income Assistance clients, how we can help them become self-sufficient. To that end, I've been looking at how we can reform those programs to help make people more self-sufficient, and I can tell you that it's not free. It's going to take money, but I think it's worth it. It's worth pursuing those changes because people on Income Assistance are often just barely getting by. When you're barely getting by, it makes it almost impossible to get ahead.

Right now, the GNWT is on Income Assistance. Our grants from the Government of Canada are Income Assistance payments. While we are making progress in many areas, we have a long way to go. This project is us taking the steps to become self-sufficient. We don't have a big tax base the way they do in the South. Our government can't generate tons of revenue, so we need these types of projects to help set ourselves up for the future so that we can become self-sufficient, so that we can start seriously addressing some of the social issues that we are all dealing with on a regular basis.

Everyone knows we need more houses. Everyone knows we need better education outcomes, but those all cost money. In many cases, some of those negative social indicators are symptoms, and we can't just keep addressing the symptoms. We have to take big steps to take control and become self-sufficient. I will be voting against this motion, along with my Cabinet colleagues. Thank you.

The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Minister of ECE. To the motion.

Some Hon. Members

Question.

The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Question has been called. I will give it back to the Member for Frame Lake for any concluding remarks.

Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. I do sincerely want to thank all my colleagues in this House for the debate that we've had. I think this is probably the most important debate that we've had since we've been elected. Unfortunately, it comes at not the greatest time, with a number of other things looming in the background for us, of course.

First off, I want to make it very clear that this motion is not about the other projects that are in the supplementary appropriation. I support the other work that's in here for Inuvik, and I've always been very clear about that. This is about this one part, and it's about removing the funding in the supplementary appropriation for the Slave Geological Province Road.

This is a debate about the future of the Northwest Territories, and the vision that we'll have. We don't all share the same vision, and that's the way it should be. That's part of consensus government, as well. If the only future that we have is pinning all of our hopes on this one project, I wouldn't do it this way. This is about more of the same. This is more about an extraction-based economy moving forward. As my colleague from Yellowknife Centre said, we're not ready for that. Even after devolution, we're not ready for it. We haven't put in place the kinds of systems to make sure that we truly benefit from this scale of resource development. Thirty billion dollars' worth of diamonds have left the Northwest Territories; $30 billion worth. We have a heritage fund that's $26 million. We've done a terrible job in terms of distribution of the benefits from diamond mining across generations, across the Northwest Territories. We have not done a good job. I look forward to working with all of my colleagues of this House to make sure that we change that, that we need to change that, and we need to do that now. It should have been started four years ago. It should have been started 20 years ago, but it didn't, and I'm worried that we're going to fall into the same traps again.

You can look at how Nunavut has approached the federal government, and the kind of relationships that they have developed. Nunavut got a lot more money for housing because, when they went to Ottawa, they talked about housing. That's not what the government did in the last Assembly. They went and talked about big infrastructure projects, and we got dribs and drabs of money, but Nunavut got more money than we did around housing, and that's what I hoped I could encourage our Cabinet to do, the same thing. When they go to Ottawa, housing has to be a top priority, and I think we started to see some evidence of that.

People say that I'm anti-development, and I know I'm going to get criticized for some of the things that I've said here today. I'm not. Our job is to make sure that, when there is resource development, we actually benefit from it. We have to make wise decisions around the priorities, even priorities amongst the three infrastructure projects that were identified when we set the priorities in the mandate. If it was up to me, I would finish the Mackenzie Valley Highway. That's the project that makes most sense. It connects communities, and, if it's done at a scale and pace so that communities can actually benefit from it, given their labour capacity, labour force, that is what I think we can and should be doing.

This project is speculative at best. I understand my colleague from Yellowknife North. This is about getting more information. It is, but I'm just not sure we want to start down that road, so to speak. An example of that is the Mackenzie Valley Highway, which has been in an environmental assessment for six years because it was not well defined. The government leap-frogged ahead and started to do the environmental assessment work before they'd finished the planning work, before they'd lined up the funding. It's been mired in environmental assessment for six years. That is what is going to happen with the Slave Geological Province Road if we don't have the funding lined up, and we don't. I'm just not sure why we want to start to spend money on that right now.

Some people have talked about how the $2.5 million is a small investment. It's actually not a small investment. That is a quarter of the entire amount that we have to invest in the mandate for this year. It is significant. That is a lot of money. Today, people are going to make the conscious choice of whether they want to spend it on an environmental assessment for a road or other priorities that we have. That is the decision we are being asked to make here today.

The other couple of things, lessons learned that I want to take away, and I am talking to my Cabinet colleagues in particular, is: you haven't done a good job selling these large infrastructure projects with this side of the House. I think that is shown in the division that we are going to get with the vote here today. You haven't done a good job explaining what those projects are all about, the cost, the benefits, and whether we can afford them or not. People on our side, we need to hold you accountable to that and get better information out of you.

I think that's all I wish to say, Madam Chair. I had requested a recorded vote. As I said, I think this is probably the most important debate that we have had in this House since we have been elected. I know it doesn't come at the best time, so I want to apologize to everybody for putting them through this. This is something we have to do. We have to stand up and be counted, and our residents need to know where we stand on these issues. Thanks, Madam Chair.

The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. The Member for Frame Lake has requested a recorded vote. All those in favour, please stand and stay standing until you are called.

Recorded Vote
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Committee Clerk Of The House Mr. Ball

The Member for Frame Lake, the Member for Yellowknife Centre, the Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Recorded Vote
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The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. All those opposed.

Recorded Vote
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Committee Clerk Of The House Mr. Ball

The Member for Kam Lake, the Member for Yellowknife North, the Member for Monfwi, the Member for Nahendeh, the Member for Yellowknife South, the Member for Sahtu, the Member for Range Lake, the Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, the Member for Hay River North, the Member for Hay River South, the Member for Thebacha, the Member for Nunakput.

Recorded Vote
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The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Abstentions. None. The motion is carried -- defeated. Sorry.

---Laughter

It's a long day, sorry. It's Friday, the 13th. All right, we will be moving on now. Committee, we had three in favour, 12 opposed, no abstentions. The motion was defeated.

---Defeated

I will now go back to 2020-2021 Supplementary Estimates No. 1, Infrastructure Expenditures, infrastructure, capital investment expenditures, asset management, not previously authorized, $10 million. Does committee agree?

Recorded Vote
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Recorded Vote
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The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

All right. Let's move on to 2020-2021 Supplementary Estimates No. 1, Infrastructure Expenditures, infrastructure, capital investment expenditures, programs and services, not previously authorized, $18,658,000. Questions? Seeing no further questions, does committee agree?

Recorded Vote
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Recorded Vote
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The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Okay. 2020-2021 Supplementary Estimates No. 1, Infrastructure Expenditures, infrastructure, capital investment expenditures, total department, not previously authorized, $28,658,000. Does committee agree?

Recorded Vote
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Recorded Vote
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The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Does committee agree that you have concluded the consideration of Tabled Document 43-19(2), Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2020-2021?

Recorded Vote
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Recorded Vote
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The Chair

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Minister, and thank you to the witness. You may escort the witness out of the Chamber. Does committee agree that this concludes consideration of Tabled Document 43-19(2), Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2020-2021?

Recorded Vote
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.