I now call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of committee, Mr. Norn?
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 30-19(2), Main Estimates, Department of Infrastructure; and also further, Madam Chair, we wish to consider Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, committee. We will have a short recess and will resume with where we left off with Infrastructure, regional operations.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
All right, committee. I am going to call committee back to order. Committee, we have agreed to consider Tabled Document 30-19(2), Main Estimates 2020-2021. We were at the Department of Infrastructure, and we were going to start regional operations. Does the Minister wish to bring witnesses to the House?
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Yes, Madam Chair. I would like to bring Dr. Joe Dragon, my deputy minister, and Mr. Gary Brennan, the director of financial services.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Would the Minister please introduce her witnesses?
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. On everyone's left if we are looking at the back of the room is Dr. Joe Dragon, my deputy minister, and on his left, our right, is Mr. Gary Brennan, director of corporate services. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. All right. We will start with regional operations, beginning on page 239, with information items up to page 242. Questions. Did I miss something? There are no questions. Do we have questions? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Are we also dealing with the revolving fund pages that follow that? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
We are dealing with pages 239 to 242, and then we will go on to the next following sections, technology service, after, so up to 242 right now, regional operations. Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am just looking at the line item "highway operations," $80 million. Can I get a sense what that money is for? Is that all of our road maintenance costs, or does that also show up in the capital budget? If I could get a sense of which part of road maintenance is in this budget versus capital? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am looking at the item "highway operations" specifically, $80 million, and I would like to get a sense of what this line item entails and where exactly road maintenance falls within the operations budget versus the capital budget. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think this is one that I will ask Dr. Dragon to answer.
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Dr. Dragon
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, this allotment of $80 million is looking at all of our highway operations across the regions. Looking at a number of activities that we have within that program detail would look at resurfacing, bridge rehabilitation, culvert repairs, that type of activity that goes right across the Territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I understand there is bridge rehabilitation and then if we need a brand-new bridge that would be in capital. I get that this $80 million covers road resurfacing, but if we go to the capital budget, there are a number of existing kind of infrastructure projects related to highways. I was hoping the Minister or her deputy minister could just help me flesh out why some road maintenance ends up in operations and others end up in capital. Ultimately, I'm looking to get a sense of how much we spend maintaining our highways. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will ask Dr. Dragon to answer this question, thank you.
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Dr. Dragon
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to let the committee know that, in terms of this, anything above $50,000 that's not included in terms of our capital, we have a very detailed list of all the activities that we have across the North going from all the different highways. It's quite a bit of detail to be able to do here, but more than willing to provide that to the Member because it's two pages of very detailed work on all of the activity that we're doing on all the major highways. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I recognize perhaps the level of detail. I'm looking forward to breaking down this $80 million figure and looking at what is in capital is a bit too much to ask right now. If I could have the department provide it to me? Ultimately, I'm looking to try and get a sense, I know we've done some of this capital planning, but how much we currently spend on road maintenance, whether that is in per mile and what the future looks like for our road maintenance. I know a number of our highways are in really significant need of repair. I don't believe this $80 million comes anywhere close to maintaining them. I guess I just want to get a report, if I could, from the department on how much we spend on road maintenance and what the future of our ability to continue to maintain our highways looks like. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. We actually do have an annual report that is available on the website, but I will commit to giving the Member a more fulsome briefing on our highways. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I've got a couple of questions about some line items on page 240. Maybe I'll just start with utilities. Back in 2018-2019 there was $38 million for utilities, and now, it's down to $35 million. Can somebody tell me why that bounces around a bit? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The difference in the utilities there is: we've seen the new Stanton Territorial Hospital utilities. It was originally an estimate. We had no other building in the North to compare it to. Now, we have actuals, so that's some of the change. We have $250,000 of marine utilities. We also have a sunsetting, not the right word, but for the Lafferty ferry upgrade, we're spending less there on utilities, now.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. The line before that, travel. I know this is a big department. I guess people are travelling all over the place, but $850,000 for travel. What kind of travel are we talking about there? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. There would be travel around to do different types of maintenance, I would imagine, between communities if we have people in regional centres that need to go out to something specific in a smaller community. However, I think that I would like to pass this to Dr. Dragon to just explain more fulsomely why we are travelling so much in the Department of Infrastructure. Thank you.
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Dr. Dragon
Thank you, Madam Chair. In looking at our travel budget, we look at monies that are transferred here. We had a seasonal project officer transfer so transferring that money, that was one, that was for $22,000 in terms of the difference. We also have, from time to time, increased travel due to activities in certain regions. In this case, we had increased travel in the Deh Cho region that had a lot of our teams going into that region based on projects that were identified there. That's it. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Okay. I'm just trying to get a sense of this. Is this money for regional staff to travel or is headquarters included in this? Is this related to the maintenance of facilities or, say, if we have a capital project and someone needs to go out and check to see what is happening, travel related to that? Does that come out of this project? What does it really cover? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. There would be definitely lots of different types of travel involved. I think I will go to Mr. Brennan for a more fulsome response. Thank you.
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Brennan
Thank you, Madam Chair. Some of the travel line item here would be for all of the regional staff for operation maintenance purposes. It includes building maintenance, highway maintenance, those types of work, and would not include any capital expenditures. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'm just looking at contract services under the expenditure category of regional operations. I'm wondering if the Minister can give us an idea of what type of contracts would come out of this for a main estimate type budget for regional operations? Thank you.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The contract services include things like leases and maintenance for the long-term care facility, Highway No. 8 maintenance, the seasoned project officer transfer that was already referred to. The Wek'eezhii land use planning office, the Norman Wells Health Centre maintenance. Highway No. 8 maintenance, we've seen some decreases there. We've seen a decrease in the Inuvik-Tuktoyaktuk Highway operations and maintenance as well as a decrease in marine maintenance. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just looking at this line item and the substantial value of $66 million, I'm wondering how much of that ends up going to northern companies and staying in the North when we're hiring people to either do that maintenance or we're paying companies for office leases and such. Thank you.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't have that percentage in front of me. I will check with my team to see if they do have that. Dr. Dragon does indicate he does. Thank you.
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Dr. Dragon
Thank you, Madam Chair. In the 2019-2020 fiscal year the GNWT awarded 45 contracts valued at $95 million for construction and maintenance and A and E services. Of those, 87 percent were to northern businesses. One of the things that we're looking into right now in the discussions around procurement and the procurement review is: how do we publish those numbers effectively to make sure that we are looking at northern businesses, but also what do we do with our BIP clients and being able to see metrics so we're able to effectively look at all the different parts of contracts and where are they coming from. Are they coming from the North? Are we having southern companies? Some of the things that we're looking at right now. Again, for the 2019-2020 fiscal year, we're looking at about 87 percent of those contracts going to northern businesses. Six of those contracts or 13 percent were awarded to southern firms. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much. I think I'm crossing over to my same line of questioning as last time now, so I'm going to be careful. We talked last time about whether 87 percent went to northern companies, but did 87 percent actually end up staying in the North and benefiting northern workers? I just want to reiterate that that's my concern with that one. The definition of a northern company is a concern. Also, what is actually the benefit retention to the Northwest Territories? Thank you.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. As we all stated, this is a priority to have this become a more meaningful use of our procurement dollars to retain them in the North, so that is part of the focus and what I have directed the department to do. We are going to be coming back to the AOC with a procurement presentation and the conversation around the plans going forward for input on how we can do procurement better. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to start off with the ferries. Most of the ferries are up there in age, and I know that we're spending money to keep them up to standards. I'm just wondering if the department is looking at, just on a cost basis, if it's worth to continue doing repairs and trying to keep them up to standard for Transport Canada, or are we going to be looking at possibly building new ones for the ferry system? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. As any department would have, we do have a preventative maintenance program, an asset program, where we would be looking at items like the ferries and others to determine if they are near the end of their useful life, and whether or not replacement would make sense than continuing to retrofit. Currently, we're going to be applying for funding under our low carbon energy efficiency fund. I think I've got that right, but the LCEF, and we'll be looking for our money there to work on our ferries and potentially purchase new ones. Thank you.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to move over here to marine operations, which I'm not sure if MTS is part of that. Anyways, what I'd like to comment on here is: in Hay River, a good portion of the operation is there. The facility is there, and ships are there. One of the problems we run into is the access out of the harbour. I'm wondering if there is any consideration given by the department to take a look at possibly dredging that harbour to reduce any cost associated with damage to the vessels because I know that this spring, I think MTS set one, there's one boat that start sailing out of the harbour. I wasn't sure if the department was trying to save money because it was unmanned, but they were able to bring it back. If it wasn't for the sandbars out there, it might have gone out a little further. Thank you.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. That does not include MTS. It's its own revolving fund, so that is the ferries. We do have an application in under the Oceans Protection Plan to dredge the harbour, so we're waiting for a word back from the federal government if we were successful in that funding. Thank you.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Back to the ferries, I know, looking through some of the documentation, that we've been able to reduce the cost of operating by swapping out engines with a different brand and that. Are we looking at doing that for all of them? If we are, are we looking to making sure that we're buying the same brand for each of them so that, in terms of parts and maintenance, we're not having to keep parts for this brand, parts for that brand? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. We're always looking at ways that we can better optimize. I think the Member's points are very good. Why buy five types of engines that we would then need five different types of people to service or parts for? Your comments are noted. Definitely. If my department is not already thinking along those lines, then we'll definitely be having a conversation afterwards that they should be. I would assume they are. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to go to highway operations. I'm thinking about Highway No. 1 from the border into Enterprise. There's no shoulders on that highway. I'm wondering if the department is looking at widening that portion to ensure that we have a highway that's safe and allows the amount of traffic that goes over it, to go over it safely. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. It definitely depends on the different types of risk, so each section of the highway is evaluated for those types of risk. I think I'm going to ask Dr. Dragon to just provide whether or not the Highway No. 1 in that specific area is coming up on our list. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Dr. Dragon
Thanks, Madam Chair. The Minister is very much correct in terms of looking at all the different highways and looking at priorities on those highways. Right now, identified for Highway No. 1, we have chip seal resurfacing from kilometre zero to 70, and kilometre 135 to 170, looking at doing that. We're also in Highway No. 1, looking at the Trout River Bridge rehabilitation, and that's at kilometre 324, as well as culvert repair that we have at kilometre 510. Again, I've noted the widening as an opportunity for future work, but right now, that's the priority that we have set for Highway 1. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to move onto road licensing and safety. Right now, with dealing with COVID, it seems like the staff that looks after the highway system, they are basically managing the border. Are we going to be putting them back onto the highways and doing inspections of vehicles that are going over the highway, big trucks and that? I know that there have been instances and concern about speeding now that trucks know that there's no enforcement. I'm just wondering what's happening with that? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. As they are at the checkpoint, they are actually kind of somewhat inspecting vehicles as they go by them. I would imagine they're looking for any deficiencies as they sit at the checkpoint. Maybe not. I saw you shake your head "no." I do believe the idea is that we would not be sacrificing highway enforcement for the people at the borders. We still have our shifts covered for the highways. If people are speeding, that's also an RCMP issue. We would definitely be communicating if we're hearing instances of that to the police. I'm just going to ask Dr. Dragon if he has anything to add to that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Dr. Dragon
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. In looking at responding to COVID and getting the borders up really quickly, we had a lot of our HTOs, highway transportation officers, that were assigned to those checkpoints. Initially, I would say, we were trying to just focus in on that. What we've been able to do now is really move towards kind of a hybrid system, so having some of our inspections that are taking place at the border. It's a little bit tricky now that we've moved the border operation to right at the border versus Enterprise. We look at operations at Enterprise picking up. It also depends on region and where we have them coming in from B.C. and where we have them coming in from the Yukon. The one thing I would say about this line item: it's very much our road licensing system. This is where we would renew our licences, our registrations, that sort of thing, not necessarily our HTO officers. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to go back to the ferries for a minute. The Johnny Berens, that one, it looks like it should probably be replaced, and the Abraham Francis. Is there any consideration or any work done to bring that up to 64,000 kilograms? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. That is a pretty specific question, so I think I will pass that one on to Dr. Dragon, as well. Thank you.
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Dr. Dragon
Thank you, Madam Chair. We have four ferries that we currently run. One of them, we do own forces. The other three are done by contractors. A lot of times, we look at, again, very much a regulated activity by Transport Canada. When we look at various upgrades to that, that system, we look right across the board in trying to maximize. As the Minister mentioned, we are trying to access some funds from the CLF fund that would allow us to upgrade. However, we have not heard yet whether or not we have been successful in that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
Thank you, Madam Chair. On page 240, I am just wondering about the allocations for the airport operations. I have always been interested in airports lately, and I guess I was wondering if I can get a detailed allocation for airport operations.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. If you would like a breakdown, a budget breakdown of the airport operations, we are going to have to provide that as a return, if that is okay with the Member. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
Another line that I am interested in is the regional operations, the leases, the $29,191,000. I am wondering if I can get a breakdown, a detailed breakdown of those.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. All of our leases are office space leases, all those prices, so they are those costs. They are in all the different regional communities, the Yellowknife area, your community, as well. We will provide a breakdown of those by each community, if that is what the Member would like. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
The other thing that I am interested in is the regional projects. What does the $2,951,000 entail?
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually, sorry, Madam Chair. I am going to pass this one over to Dr. Dragon, as well. Thank you.
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Dr. Dragon
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to just give you the money that is changing from the 2019-2020 mains to the 2020-2021 mains. For regional projects, mainly that increase is for collective agreement wage increases, but I would turn it over to Mr. Brennan to be able to go through that in detail. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Brennan
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, so the regional projects line item is essentially the money that is spent in the regions by staff working in the regions, building maintenance and other minor projects that do not fit the capital definition per our Financial Administration Act. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
I could not hear him. Could he speak loud and clear so I could just hear what he said? Please, Madam Chair.
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Brennan
Okay, Madam Chair. I will try to speak louder. Regional projects is the money that is allocated to the regions for -- higher? Okay. It's for building maintenance and other small projects in the region.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
[Microphone turned off] ...the earpiece switch, you will be able to hear him. All right. Sorry for cutting you off, Mr. Brennan. Let's try this one more time.
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Brennan
Okay. Can you hear me now? All right. Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. The regional projects budget is again a regional budget allocated to the maintenance staff in the regions, to the minor projects on buildings and other items. It's for work that does not meet the capital definition as per the Financial Administration Act. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. It would definitely be dependent on each office and what was needed at the office. I do believe that, under certain amounts, there would be regional authorities that could go ahead and do a small project without having to escalate it up the chain, but there would be thresholds in which there would need to be senior and then, I would imagine, up to my level, ministerial approval. Because those are the smaller ones, I would imagine a lot of it is done regionally. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
I guess, Madam Chair, my concern with that would be making sure that it's neutral, objective, and making sure that the Aboriginal groups are contacted in this case, even at a regional level or at a community level because many times, a lot of the groups are looking for extra employment and opportunities. I would like to make sure that the department takes that into consideration when this happens because it's really important that we include everyone. Inclusiveness is extremely important, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I commit to the Member to have that conversation with each of my regional offices, to re-emphasize the direction I have given to the deputy minister to maximize and utilize northern and Indigenous businesses more. As well, we will have that procurement review and input from you on that so that we can make these changes and make sure we are doing better. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
The other one I want to just ask a further question on is kind of on the same lines as one of my colleagues asked, Madam Chair. That is the $66,444,000, the contract services. It was stated that 87 percent of it went to Northerners. The big list that we got on one of our documents, there was a lot of businesses on there that are BIP, but I would not consider them northern, myself, if they are not owners in the Northwest Territories. I am just wondering: how is 87 percent quite possible? Like, I want to make sure because there is a concern about northern content. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree. I definitely have had a lot of conversations over the last eight months, with you included, about better maximizing and ensuring that people are not saying one thing and doing another, so again I commit to the Member that this is going to change in my department and that we are going to ensure that more northern and Indigenous businesses are winning contracts and working, through COVID-19 and beyond. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair. No. Just a question in regard to: I brought up a Member's statement this week in regard to the Sachs Harbour Airport and the situation that there is too much saturation in the community to land small aircraft for medevac planes and only allowed Twin Otters with thunder tires, which the airline does not have at this time. They are working towards getting a plane up there to service the community. Where does that fall in under 2018 main estimates? It was put in there, and then why hasn't it been done, or what is the plan coming to get this situation for Sachs Harbour sorted out? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Sachs Harbour, the drainage improvements are actually under the capital budget, so they will be addressed there. As I mentioned in the House yesterday, we do have the excavator coming this summer to do the work, but I believe that's all under our capital budget. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair. There must be an excavator in the communities. Why are we having to wait this long? What could we do in the interim for the safety of the community of Sachs Harbour to try to get that runway opened up, or is the department going to be helping the airline for the $58,000 a month to bring that aircraft into the community? It's not the airline's fault; it's our government in regard to not providing adequate runway service to the community. Where does that fall under? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. It's my understanding they are doing snow removal right now on the runway so that the planes can land. It is under our climate change adaptation strategy to deal with some of these airport drainage issues. How about I will commit, as well, to the Member to have a discussion about that particular airport after? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a couple of questions. One of the things that kind of stood out for me was the line item on amortization. For 2021, it's at $58.4 million. I looked through the entire book just to make sure, and it's quite high; it's almost pushing half of the entire GNWT's expenditures. I'm just wondering why that is. I'll start with that, and then we'll keep on going. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. Amortization is quite an accounting term, so I think I'll pass this off to Mr. Brennan and remind him to speak up when he answers. Thank you.
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Brennan
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. Amortization, I'll try to use some terms that are not too accountant-ese for you and for me. When we put an asset into service, a capital asset, it has a useful life of, say, 20 years, and that asset is depreciated over those 20 years. The amortization shows up every year, and it is representative of how many assets we put into service. It gets charged over the life of the asset. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. I'm glad there was a little bit of clarification, because my next question was: if you had to explain the accounting term to an elder, how would you do that? I guess you kind of caught a little bit of it. Thank you for that explanation. Why is this amortization for this department so high in relation to other departments? Marsi cho.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would believe that has to do with just the sheer size of the Department of Infrastructure and the number of assets that we do manage. We have a lot of the GNWT buildings for other client departments. We have the roads. We have airports. Everything sort of tangible or a lot of tangible things fall under the Department of Infrastructure compared to, say, Finance, which maybe doesn't have as much brick and mortar as we do. Thank you.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Just to clarify, those assets could be, like you mentioned, buildings, equipment, and those sorts of items. Correct? Marsi cho.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Moving along, are we doing page 241? We are? Band council subsidized leases. Madam Chair, can the Minister just describe what Indigenous groups this would be applicable for, what group this applies to? Marsi cho.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't have the group names in front of me, and I will pass that off in a second. I just wanted to state that the Department of Infrastructure no longer has any agreements with land councils for subsidized leases, so the practice has been discontinued. A submission has to be prepared to reduce the Infrastructure lease budget by $140,000. The accounting offset is included in revenue, so that's why it's showing up. After this, it will no longer be involved in our budget. Thank you, Madam Chair. Sorry, I want to just pass to Dr. Dragon. He can tell us which ones those entail.
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Dr. Dragon
Thanks, Madam Chair. Unfortunately, I don't have that information with me, but the Minister is correct. We are no longer providing that service, so we're actually moving it out of the books. My apologies for not bringing it today. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Just so I have my head wrapped around this, you're saying this is discontinued, so this assistance won't be available to whatever band that this help was meant for, Madam Chair?
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I believe there were agreements in place that had end dates, and that's why these have ended. I wouldn't be able to tell you what the prior Minister reasoning was of that, but I do commit to coming back to the Member and finding that information and providing it. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
All right. Are there any further questions under regional operations? Member for Deh Cho.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
Mahsi, Madam Chair. Under marine operations, we have resupply to the communities. There is the Mackenzie River communities, so I imagine they are serviced from the Port of Hay River. For the Beaufort-Delta, I'm not certain if they are serviced from Hay River or else the resupply is from Inuvik. Can you just clarify that? At the same time, too, whether we're seeing an increase in the resupply cargo? Mahsi.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The marine operations listed here are the ferries only. The MTS has its own revolving fund, and it does have its own separate budget. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. I think we will be getting to that in the next section, MTS. Sorry. Member for Deh Cho.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
Sorry. I'm just wondering about capital projects, whether that's in the section, too.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
No, capital projects are not. We're just doing operation budget. Member for Deh Cho, do you have questions on the regional operations?
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
[Microphone turned off] ...marine operations. The Marine Training Centre, I was hearing about it. I'm not sure where the centre really is located and whether it is still operational and if you are getting a high attendance there. If not, would we consider southern students to fill any empty seats? Mahsi.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Deh Cho. I'll put you on the list first when we get to the next. Are there further questions in relation to regional operations on pages 239 to 242? Seeing that there are no further questions, please turn to page 240. Infrastructure, regional operations, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $210,146,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
All right. Now, we will move on, starting on page 243, and I'll read off the title. If people have questions to that, once we get to it. The first one is on page 243-244, technology service centre. Are there questions related to that? No questions. Moving on, Public Stores Revolving Fund on page 245. If there are no questions on that, I will move on to page 246, Petroleum Products Revolving Fund. Questions in relation to that? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. If you look at the bottom of the page itself, this fund is in a deficit of a lot of money. What is going on? Why does this fund have such a large accumulated deficit, $1 million? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. That has to do with the fuel delivery issues of a few years back. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. If I go back to 2018-2019, it is still at an $850,000 deficit. I'm trying to remember; was that after the fuel delivery problem? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I do believe that it is still an impact of the missed year and having to fly fuel in. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. If I understand it, the purpose of this was to -- I'm just looking at the top of the page, of course, as well -- try to stabilize the price of fuel in communities and so on. Right now, at one point, you could take a barrel of oil and somebody would pay you $37 to actually take it away. How do we use this fund in a way that tries to stabilize the price for our communities and takes advantage of when oil was really low there for a while? Are we that nimble or quick that we could actually use this money in a way to bring down the cost of fuel in our communities? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The fund was set up through the Revolving Funds Act to provide working capital to finance the inventory, the accounts receivable, and the operating expenses required for the distribution of petroleum products. The idea is that the fund would then stabilize prices for the communities. It can significantly fluctuate, so by providing these flexibilities for these pricing guidelines approved by the financial management board and the ability to seek approval for pricing outside the guidelines, in the event of extreme or unforeseen changes in the cost, that's how we end up stabilizing the prices. The variance between the budget from which the components of the fuel prices are charged are based on the actual results. That's why we see a difference there. I am just going to ask if Dr. Dragon has anything that he would like to add to that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Dr. Dragon
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, in looking at this revolving fund, we purchased approximately 35 million litres of fuel each year. Based on that, we look at how do we transport them, either by marine, which is tug and barge -- that's about 17 million litres of fuel -- and transferring by road, which is tanker truck, so around 14 to 17 million litres of fuel. Again, looking at this fund, we are not trying to make any money off the fund. We are just trying to deliver that fuel and provide it for resupply into the 16 communities that are served by the petroleum products program.
As we look at the price, and in the last session that we had, looking at the price that we buy fuel, typically, we purchase the fuel, it comes in, and then we deliver it all through the North. We actually have to recover that cost of fuel when it was bought at that time. As the Member had mentioned, now we have a reduced price. We would look at buying prices now, at this new price, but until we are able to find that equilibrium of being able to lessen the amount of fuel prices, we are currently working with the Department of Finance to see what options we have in order to take advantage of that. It is something that this group within the fuel division looks at all the time of how we reduce the cost of this fuel to taxpayers because we not only resupply those communities, but we also resupply NTPC and all of the fuel that they have in those communities. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I am just trying to figure this out. The day when Texas crude went to negative $37 a barrel, could we actually buy enough on the stock market so that we could give away fuel in the communities? Could we bulk purchase that far in advance? Can we store the stuff somewhere? I have no sense of how this actually works. If the witnesses need to go back and get somebody else to help them answer that, I am fine with getting an answer later. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. We are currently looking to improve our volume, our capacity of storage for fuel, and we have made some applications for funding for that. I will commit to coming back to the Member with some more information at a later time. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. Are there any further questions on the Petroleum Products Revolving Fund? Member for Hay River South.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just going off of what Kevin was saying: what analysis was completed with respect to purchasing the petroleum products at the best possible price? Have we looked at not only taking the fuel down the Mackenzie, but also coming around the coast? I think we talked about rack price before, and I think that price there can go anywhere, depends where you're buying it, from 15 cents up to whatever. I am just wondering: what analysis and how much work did this department actually put into it? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Please talk with either the Member's riding or last name. Minister.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. We are very hampered, at times, with our ability to be able to just go and purchase fuel when it is at its cheapest. That would be due to things, like I said, like storage capacity, as well. We have very specific times in which we need to be able to do our resupply. It does make a bit of a difference about when we can go ahead and purchase that fuel. As for your other questions about how much analysis has been done and whether or not alternate routes have been explored, I would have to come back to you with that information. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Any other questions on Petroleum Products Revolving Act? If not, moving on to Marine Transport Service Revolving Fund, and I will give the floor to the Member for Deh Cho.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
Did we switch pages already? Okay. Getting back to my question, we have a resupply down the Mackenzie Valley for the Mackenzie Valley communities that don't have the road system in the summer months. I know that they are being serviced from the Hay River port with the tugs and barges. The Beaufort-Delta, which is up in the Arctic Ocean communities, my question there was: are they being resupplied from the port in Inuvik? I'm wondering the frequency of the deliveries during the summer months, whether we're increasing in the resupply and the resupply of cargo. I guess I'll start with those ones. Mahsi.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't know, specifically, myself, off the top of my head whether or not the resupply of the Beaufort-Delta is from the ocean or whether it's up the Mackenzie. I believe it's up the Mackenzie, but I'm going to ask Dr. Dragon to clarify.
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Dr. Dragon
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. Right now, in terms of the resupply, we've been coming up through Hay River and into all the communities going up all the way up to Inuvik. We are looking at opportunities right now, and it speaks to the question of "Have we looked at other opportunities?" We have in terms of our team looking at where we can purchase fuel. Very important as we look at the purchasing of fuel, making sure that we have the right quality of fuel, and in terms of timing and when we get it into these ports. We have a full sailing schedule that goes from Hay River and then all the way to all those communities up in the North that are available online. We can provide it to the Member, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
Thanks for that. To me, it seems like it's quite the long trip up the Mackenzie River. There are lots of hours in there, and there is a lot of fuel being burned. I thought we may have learned our lessons from, was it the 2018 fiasco with the fuel resupply? There were lots of comments that it's probably more prudent to have a resupply set setup in Inuvik to supply the Beaufort-Delta communities for fuel and cargo. I'm wondering what the department's thoughts are on that. Mahsi.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. Within the department we are always looking to better optimise our services. I know that the opening of the Arctic Ocean, the Arctic passage is a relatively new thing. There are concerns about shipping through the Arctic, as well. It's definitely something that I know we'll be looking at going forward, and we note the Member's comments. As well, with my other hat on, it's not that department, but ITI is exploring LNG and such within the Beaufort-Delta. My hope is, one day, we will not be sending fuel up the Mackenzie to the Beaufort-Delta. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
I look forward to that report tomorrow.
--- Laughter
Okay. We'll leave that there. It's in the capable hands of the Minister and her staff. That's something I would really, really want to have considered. It saves a lot of wear and tear and everything all around. It could be beneficial in savings in the future. The Marine Training Centre, I'm not sure if that one is in Fort Smith or Hay River. I'm wondering if it's being used to full capacity with people from the North, and if not, would we look at accepting students from the South? That's all I have on that one, Mahsi.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Marine Training Centre is in Hay River. It's that one there. I just wanted to state that we're not training at the moment because of the COVID situation. It is a training centre for Northerners to create jobs and economic opportunities to support our fisheries and our economic diversification. We've had about 840 various certificate courses offered there in Hay River, Inuvik, and Tuktoyaktuk. Two hundred and fifty-eight students attended the courses in 2018-2019. Five programs had begun as of September 1, 2019, before we had COVID. Approximately 500 Transport Canada certificates have been issued and 350 other certificates, such as those issued by Industry Canada. During the 2019 sailing, six graduates took deckhand positions with the MTS tugboats, four on the operational tugboats and two on the Hay River. Four graduates also took work on the MTS supported Arctic Research Foundation vessel operation on Great Slave. We've had four graduates join the coast guard. Two graduates working on the local ships and two had an opportunity to sail on the ice breakers. At this time, I believe, the centre has actually been doing fairly well from an enrollment standpoint. However, if we were to find that we weren't having Northerners taking those positions I don't see why we wouldn't offer that opportunity to Southerners. That always gets us more people in the North and perhaps they stay, and we get more transfer payments. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. The first question I have is with respect to the charters. I noticed that, in 2018-2019, we had a revenue of just over $1 million with expenses of around $1.2 million. Now, in 2020-2021 estimates, we're looking at a revenue of $200,000, and we're looking at charter costs of $422,000. Can you explain to me that difference and maybe give a little background on the charters? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think I'll pass this over to Mr. Brennan to answer. Thank you very much.
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Brennan
Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of the charters themselves, that's when someone essentially leases a vessel. If someone wants a private vessel for whatever work they are intending to do, that's what we consider to be a charter. We charge them back based on a daily rate which includes costs of the vessel and the staffing of the vessel, as well. In terms of the numbers the 2020-2021 budget for charters is based on the number of charters that we anticipate receiving in this current fiscal year, now. We don't anticipate many charters this year. Therefore, the number is down, now. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. We're showing a revenue of $200,000, but expenditures for those charters is $422,000. We're losing a lot more than we're making unless I'm looking at something wrong. Thank you.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I believe what he's saying is the charter costs are what they label when they do work on other peoples' boats, whereas the charter revenue is the money we receive to move goods around. Perhaps I would suggest that charter costs, under expenditures, is a poorly named item. It would probably be better to be "work on others," if that is my understanding from what Mr. Brennan has said. He's nodding his head "yes." Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Talking about other items, what do the other items entail? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The increase there is actually the money that we've gotten from the Oceans Protection Plan for the four double-hulled barges. I believe that would be any revenues that we have received when we apply on any sorts of funding that we'd be looking for to do specific, either purchasing or other projects. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for bringing up the double-hulled barges. Can you tell me whether that they are on budget? What the cost to build them and the cost to get them into Canada? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. As I mentioned in the House yesterday, they are on time. They will be delivered in August. Sorry. They were $29 million. Maybe I will just ask Dr. Dragon to just fill in a little bit more of the information. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Dr. Dragon
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. That funding was $29 million. That was 75 percent provided by the Ocean Protection Plan. They are on schedule and on budget. They are scheduled to arrive in Tuktoyaktuk between August 12th and 15th, and to this date, we get weekly updates from the manufacturer. Everything is on schedule as planned. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to these double-hulled barges, are they going to be used on the Mackenzie River, or are they only for ocean-going? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Dr. Dragon
Thanks, Madam Chair. Our goal is to have the majority of our fleet as actual double-hulled barges. We have two double-hulled pre-owned barges that were purchased in 2017. We have four new double-hulled barges that will come online in 2020. We are also doing conversions right now, two new 1500-series conversions. It will allow us to have eight double-hulled barges that we will be utilizing throughout the northern environment. I think it's one thing to be able to say you're delivering a product that, if we were to get in trouble on one of the ecosystems that we're currently travelling on, we could have a real issue there. I think, again, what we've been trying to do is make sure that all of our barging systems will be double-hulled. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. With double-hulled barges, are you going to be able to, with respect to petroleum products, haul the same volume as you would with non-double-hulled barges? I'm thinking here that, if you can't, that may increase the cost of petroleum products in the communities. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't believe that the double-hulled barges are any lesser in volume than the ones that we already had. If anything, I do believe they are perhaps larger volumes. I see Mr. Brennan shaking his head "yes," so there is no reduced capacity with the new barges. Thank you.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. That takes into account lower water levels? Because my understanding is that, with double-hulled barges, you're going to have maybe two feet, maybe a little bit more, drawn. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would hope that, when the planning study was done in the former Minister's department, they did, in fact, look at water levels in the Mackenzie, as we have had a couple of years now of truncated shipping or barging seasons because of the low levels. I would assume that has been done as part of the studies when the purchases were made. I think that they are comparable, according to Dr. Dragon, so I don't believe that there should be an issue with the lower water levels. I can commit to coming back to you with a written answer on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. We're going to end up with some new barges. What are we doing about the vessels that tow the barges? They are aging, as well. Have we looked at the cost of retrofits versus replacing them? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually, part of that other cost is also to retrofit one of the tugboats under the federal funding the LCELF, the Low Carbon Economy Leadership Fund. As mentioned before, these would also have an asset management plan or a preventative maintenance plan where they would be looking at the life cycles of these assets and determining whether it is more cost effective to retrofit and continue to upgrade or to purchase new tugs. Yes, as part of the entire department's preventative maintenance program and asset management, they would be looking at the life cycles or lifetimes of the tugboats as well as the barges. Thank you.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to turn to MTC, now. Who actually owns that? Is that part of MTS? Is that part of this government, or are we in a joint venture with somebody from Nunavut? Can you just maybe elaborate on that? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, we've entered a lease with the Nunavut Fisheries and Marine Training Consortium to establish the Marine Training Centre in Hay River. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. MTC is providing training to fishers for the Great Slave Lake. Are they hiring trainers who are familiar with inland fisheries and inland waters, or are they using trainers who are used to offshore fishing? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
All right. Are there any further questions on Marine Transport Service Revolving Fund? Seeing none, I will move on to the Infrastructure Yellowknife Airport Revolving Fund. Any questions? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I'd like to get an explanation of the growing accumulated surplus in this fund, which now stands, at the end of 2020-20201, at almost $45 million. There was a lot of debate and discussion in setting this up as a revolving fund. I even voted against the bill because I think there was insufficient transparency and governance for this fund, stakeholder involvement, and so on. Why is the accumulated surplus going to be $45 million at the end of this year? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The surplus is to do capital improvements at the Yellowknife Airport. We are currently exploring a Yellowknife Airport plan to do upgrades to the terminal building, I believe, and other parts of the airport and the runway. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, I'm well aware of what the money is for. I want it out the door and being spent. I've been waiting for this 20-year capital plan for the airport for some time. Especially now, with the pandemic going on, here's an opportunity. Here's a pot of money that we could actually spend now to start doing some work at the airport. I know this is a complicated issue. People have been complaining about the lack of services, the line-ups, and so on, out of there for years. I know air transport is likely going to change and evolve with the pandemic, but to have a $45-million surplus sitting there and not doing anything with it, this is not a good thing. When is this 20-year capital plan actually going to be finished? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The true surplus of the Yellowknife Airport Revolving Fund is actually $20 million. We do have a 20-year master plan, which is in draft discussion, but it does identify the capital needs of the airport, including the baggage handling area, the airfield lighting, runways, et cetera. Hopefully, we're going to be finalizing that plan. There are obviously going to have to be stakeholder inputs, as stated. It is a separate pot of money, a fund, a separate fund than the rest of our projects, so it's not like I can take the $40 million or whatever and put it into a building somewhere else. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I'm not interested in having the money spent somewhere else. This was a big debate and discussion around setting this up in the first place that, if people were going to start paying fees to land and take off in Yellowknife, the money was supposed to stay in Yellowknife for the improvement of this airport. I still didn't get an answer: when is the 20-year capital fund going to be completed? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. As stated, the plan is now in draft and is working toward being finalized. When it is complete, I will share that with the Member. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks for that clarification, the same answer as the last one. When is this money going to start moving out of the revolving fund and being spent on capital? Are we actually going to see any projects happening this summer at the airport? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. The airport plan was originally to be finalized this winter. However, this has not happened as a result of the department and others being on other projects, including on dealing with COVID. It is our hope that, early in this Assembly, we will be starting to move on the airport improvements. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I don't think I got an answer to my question. Are there going to be any capital projects at the Yellowknife Airport this summer that start to draw down the surplus? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will pass this to Dr. Dragon. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Dr. Dragon
Thank you, Madam Chair. The 20-year master plan, as the Minister mentioned, given we've run into COVID and dealing with that right now, one of the things to advise committee: we contracted a consulting firm that has been working with a number of different countries around the world, looking at market analysis, economic development, development of strategy of airports. We feel very well positioned to take advantage of this fund. This is going to be one that I think is going to be a really good news story kind of coming out of us actually bringing in these funds and having a targeted fund available to participate in any sort of program that the federal government will have having to do with airports. The Minister has been in a number of conversations with her colleagues about that.
I was just going to mention that we've done a lot of improvements to the Yellowknife Airport over the years when we talk about enhancements of the screening area, food and beverage services, looking a gate for mines that when they're coming out. We've had different things done, repairs to the south apron of the air terminal building. We also are looking at opportunities of cold-weather testing and looking at possible video development. We're hoping that that will be as a part of the 2020 Destination Canada aerospace brochure. We're also in discussions right now with the Korean aerospace industries with the hopes of hosting, possibly, a multi-year, cold-weather testing program for the new, light-armed helicopter. In addition, we're continuing to work with the Department of ITI to gather key data in preparation for marketing additional air service to and from Yellowknife. Finally, we're working towards gaining access to a program called Drives to better able to understand and put in an enforcement parking management of the short-term and long-term parking lots and the curtesy vehicle parking area. Just wanted to let committee know that I've asked my airport folks to see if they can do something about the guy that barks at you when you put your ticket in there. We're looking at that. Those are the initiatives that we're currently looking coming in the future before the master plan. We're really basing those on: we don't want to put more money into this airport if we're looking at doing a new airport, which we feel is necessary. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I want to thank the deputy minister for the details that he provided there. I don't think I got an answer. Is any of this money going to be spent this summer for capital improvements at the airport? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I commit to getting back to the Member with that answer. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Madam Chair, if I'm getting a bit frustrated, it's because I've raised this now probably for about three years in a row. I was here when this revolving fund was set up. I've seen the growth in this fund. I want the money spent. Yellowknifers deserve to have this money spent. Northerners deserve to have this money spent, especially at this time. Then I keep hearing that there's no plan. I can't even find out if any of this work is going to take place this summer. That's not a good place to be, Madam Chair. I hope that we're not going to be in the same place a year from now because I'll be back asking the exact same questions. If there is some frustration here, it's because I've asked the same questions three years in a row, and I would have thought that we would have been much farther ahead. If we're not going to spend this money, get rid of the fee and just run it the way that it was before. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I can only speak for the year that I've been here. I'm sorry that the Member feels frustrated with this. There is a plan; it is being finalized. Once it is finalized, we will be moving forward on spending the money. I think that, particularly in light of where we are at in our situation and wanting to maximize our dollars, we have to make sure, when we do move forward, we're moving forward and spending the money in a good manner that maximizes benefits to Northerners. If we have to take a little bit more time in the post-COVID or during COVID to do so, I would rather my department did that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. Are there any further questions on the Yellowknife Airport Revolving Fund? Seeing none, we will move on to page 252, lease commitments. Any questions? Seeing no questions on lease commitments, we'll move to work performed on behalf of others. Any questions? Thank you, Members. Mr. Norn.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. I move that this committee defer further consideration of the estimates for the Department of Infrastructure at this time. Mahsi cho, Madam Chair.
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Some Hon. Members
Question.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.
---Carried
Thank you, Minister, and thank you to the witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, you may escort the witnesses from the Chamber. We will take a short, five-minute.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. Committee, we have agreed to consider Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act. I will ask the Member for Yellowknife North, the sponsor of the bill, to introduce it.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Although this is a short piece of legislation, it is very much a historic legislation. I am pleased to provide opening comments on Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act. Madam Chair, this bill will provide the Legislative Assembly authority to conduct all or a portion of our sittings by way of virtual means. The test for that will be in the hands of the Speaker, and we will sit virtually in exceptional circumstances.
Madam Chair, this bill was drafted in response to efforts to avoid face-to-face meetings of this House in a global pandemic, but its purpose is not limited to the current situation. Any number of natural disasters, travel restrictions, or territory-wide health and safety concerns could consider its use in the future. I want to say, for the record, that this legislation is not intended to provide Members with a convenient way to attend sessions of this House by virtual or remote means under normal circumstances. The default should always be that we attend our business in person, in this place, and in a public forum. The intention here is to provide the Speaker with another tool to ensure that the work of this place, including the passage of legislation, the approval of budgets, and the holding of the government to account, can continue, even under extraordinary circumstances. Madam Chair, this bill is about continuity of government in a time of crisis.
This bill authorizes a Member or a group of Members, with the Speaker's advance authorization, to participate in all or a portion of a session by way of a conference call or a video conference. The Member participating in this fashion is included in the calculation of quorum for the Assembly and is considered to have attended the sitting day in question. When a Member is authorized to participate in one of these remote ways, their vote will be counted as if it were cast in person, Madam Chair.
I suspect that some of the details of this legislation and how it will operate, if enacted, will need to be fleshed out by the Standing Committee on Rules and Procedures in the days ahead, Madam Chair. The future remains very uncertain as to how this pandemic will play out. This legislation will provide us all the legal authority to meet by virtual means, in public, should it be required in the months and years ahead.
This concludes my opening remarks, Madam Chair, and I am happy to take any questions that Members may have.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Would you like to bring witnesses into the Chamber?
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Yes, Madam Chair. I would like to bring in Tim Mercer, clerk of the Legislative Assembly, and Mike Reddy, director of legislation division.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Member for Yellowknife North, will you please introduce your witnesses?
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to introduce Tim Mercer, clerk of the Legislative Assembly, and Mike Reddy, director of legislation, seated to my left at the witness table.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Tim Mercer and Mike Reddy are the witnesses. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Mr. Reddy. Thank you. I will now open the floor to general comments on Bill 6. Member for Yellowknife Centre.
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Julie Green Yellowknife Centre
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Samara Centre for Democracy is a non-partisan think tank that is based in Ottawa, and it conducts research on strengthening democracy in Canada. Last week, the Samara Centre issued a report on how provincial and territorial legislatures are adapting their work to the pandemic, and a key finding of theirs is that, "despite the rapid emergence of virtual parliaments throughout the world, few provincial and territorial legislatures have looked to technology to keep up with parliamentary business. Just three out of 13 legislatures in Canada have held virtual committee meetings, and only BC and Newfoundland and Labrador have authorized virtual sittings." The finding leads to a recommendation by the Samara Centre that virtual platforms should be embraced to enable legislative activity, and not only that, but participation by all Members, not just those who are in physical proximity to the Legislative Assembly building.
I bring this to your attention because I took part in a virtual news conference about this report and specifically talked about how the NWT has adapted. It's my analysis that we are well ahead here, by having virtual sittings of our standing committees since April. Videoconferencing has enabled us to speak to one another, if not to see one another. We have some people who are still only on phone access. As a matter of fact, as an aside, it has highlighted bandwidth issues in a number of communities, including Yellowknife, where people have struggled to stay online. All the same, we've made that effort. We've tried different platforms, and we are now able to include everyone in our standing committee meetings who wants to be there.
When we were discussing whether to return to this House in person, as a select few, or not at all, many of the Members were interested in a virtual sitting. I wasn't, especially, because of our technology issues, our bandwidth issues, but I do think that it's very important to set the legislative stage for this to happen when we get the digital issues resolved. I feel that we are well ahead with this piece of legislation, and I support it. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes. I, too, support the bill. After the House stopped our earlier sitting on March 16th, we had about one week off, but then we started to meet, at least as Regular MLAs, using different kinds of videoconferencing services. I think we found ways to make it work, and we got better as we went along, over the several weeks that we tried meeting virtually, at least as a committee. My preference would have been that we had attempted to do this sitting in that manner, as well, but this bill will help enable future Assemblies to have the availability of meeting by videoconferencing.
I think we still have a long way to go in terms of Internet access to the House. I've spoken about it last week in the House, that we need to make sure that we have improved Internet access for all of our communities, including the remote ones, not just the ones that are next to or along the path of the Mackenzie Valley fibre link. It also means setting up distribution systems within those communities.
I'm happy to support this bill, but we also need to build improved Internet access across the Northwest Territories, and we need to go to the federal government, get the money to do it, and make that a priority. I do support the bill and leaving open the door for that kind of work to be done in the future by the Assembly itself. Of course, committees have the ability to set their own rules, and that's why committees were able to meet virtually over the last couple of months. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. When I first heard of this bill, the first thing that popped into my mind was you should always hope for the best and plan for the worst. I think, if a second wave for this COVID were to occur, this legislation would help with it; but, as the Member for Frame Lake did mention, it's important that we have really strong infrastructure in terms of Internet.
It brought up some concerns. Let's say, if I was visiting some constituents in Lutselk'e and, say, if I was staying at a bed and breakfast or at the Co-op and I wanted to go on the Internet, okay, we have a sitting that we need to go and I need to be seen and to do some committee meetings, or whatnot, or even theoretically have a session, it would not be good enough right now. Sure, we can use the phone. I'm not sure if that's going to be built into the wording, but I could probably get to that with my question. Those are some of the concerns that I have. I'm going to use my hands. Right now, what we're asking, the standard needs to be here, but for a lot of our small communities, it's much, much lower. We're right here. We need to bring our infrastructure in terms of Internet and communications up to where we need it to be so we can have proper communications if we're in the small communities. That's very, very important otherwise.
For me, like I said, it's all about parliamentary privilege. We need to be able to represent our communities properly and, if I was in, say, a community like Lutselk'e, it would be really difficult unless I'm on the phone and calling. I know that, in a lot of places, they build in authentication to prove who you are. I don't know if anybody can replicate my voice and impersonate me, but you know what I mean. There need to be those things kind of built in. Those are just some of the things I'm thinking about on the fly. I guess my question is: will some of this wording be built in that, say, if I was on a telephone or on Internet, if it cut out, would there be something built in for me to represent my representatives over the phone? Marsi cho.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. I will turn it over to the Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. To the one point, the legislation permits both teleconference by telephone and videoconference appearances. I suspect, if a Member was in the middle of a key vote and cut out, we would do very much what we've been doing in committee meetings, which is to make attempts to reconnect with them. Then, at which point, if we were unable to connect, it would become a matter of privilege, subject to the Speaker's discretion, how to proceed. As stated before, we will bring this to the rules and procedures committee and work out the details for those types of scenarios, to make sure there is a plan in place.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for that response. I guess that leads me to another question. Let's say, if there was that one deciding vote, and it could be any one of us, we could be somewhere in any of the small communities, for whatever reason, and all the attention was on us. All of a sudden, it was that one vote. Would there be something built into this bill stating that you would suspend the sitting until we heard the vote come through? Marsi cho.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. There is nothing built into the legislation to specifically clarify that decision. It would be up to the rules and procedures committee and subject to the Speaker, depending, you know, exactly what the scenario was. I suspect all efforts would be made to reconnect the Member and to find a way to make sure they could digitally cast their vote, should they be disconnected. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just one last comment. I think this is a great idea, but we just have to make sure that we always, like I said when I led in, plan for the worst, and make sure that we have as much built in so we have a protection for any of those worst-case scenarios. Marsi cho.
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Ronald Bonnetrouge Deh Cho
Mahsi, Madam Chair. I see that this would be used in exceptional circumstances. I guess we are talking about, maybe, this situation as an example, the pandemic. I don't know what other circumstances there would be that we should be aware of, perhaps, because it just could be used at any time. There would be concerns with that, especially when we are looking at determining quorum for a circumstance like this. That's why we need to know what type of circumstances. If we had a list or examples of them in this legislation, or this act, it doesn't go far enough here. It's a broad stroke of the pen here. They can use it anywhere at any time, it seems like.
I would like to see more defined circumstances where this would be used, especially for quorum. The concern there is that it's bad enough that we can't be in person; we're going to be left out of whatever discussions are being discussed at the time. I'm assuming it would have to be an emergency thing, but what is deemed as an emergency? What is it? We need more details on this here so that it's not going to be abused. If we could get more clarification on that, especially for quorum, too, maybe we need more explanation underneath there, so you're not all of a sudden holding a meeting over here and you're leaving me out; that type of thing where we're leaving somebody out. I don't think that's fair if there are going to be discussions on any particular subject.
I am also wondering about the languages, also, whether there would be translation services provided for these. I know languages are very important. We are in the land of the Dene people in the Northwest Territories. I did express that I wanted to see every translator here for this sitting. I didn't get much support, because you didn't need 22; you could have still had 11. You could have accommodated them. It creates employment for the translators, plus it's being translated out there to the public. They are kind of assuring me that they are going to translate documents or translate them in some other fashion moving forward. I don't know if that's even going to happen. Those are questions that I have for this one here. Mahsi.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. A couple of points there; I would like to begin with the languages. The intention here is that we will put forward, if we use this technology, we will use software that allows simultaneous translation. All of the other rules that apply to the Legislative Assembly still apply to the Members, the point of privilege, and the rules and procedures committee, as they have rules related to translation would apply in this case. It is completely the intention to allow simultaneous translation if and when we use this.
In regard to defining exceptional circumstances in the act, I want to point out that this is the enabling legislation in the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act. Not everything is contained within this act. There were further details in the rules of the Legislative Assembly, and following this, it is expected to be brought to the rules and procedures committee, and some parameters around exceptional circumstances are to be defined.
As I said in my opening statement, we are really thinking of scenarios similar to COVID-19. Other scenarios, if there were massive forest fire seasons and Members had an inability to travel, it would be similar. The issue of a quorum appearing digitally without Members getting notice and the Speaker attempting to do that is just not possible. It's not a concern that we are going to have some sort of on-the-spot digital sitting without Members having notice and those exceptional circumstances being explained by the Speaker as per the rules set out. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I support this motion, as well. I think it's time that we take somewhat of a lead in the way we conduct business here in the NWT. We expect students to use video conferencing, and I think that we have to set the example. With respect to exceptional circumstances, and then, further down, we see the Speaker has discretion, there are two variances there in that meaning. I think, if that goes to the rules and procedures committee and gets dealt with, I'm fine with that. I don't really have any questions. I just wanted to make a comment and show my support for the motion. Thank you.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
I want to go on the record, too, that I do support the legislation. I am not a computer person, but I seem to manage. I seem to get my view out there. I don't want to hold back. We have to be role models, especially when it comes to our younger generations at the high schools and the colleges. I have done that in the community, and I continue to do that. I will never hold back progress. Thank you.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I think this is a very much needed change in the legislation. I am proud of this Legislative Assembly for putting this forward. My one concern would be in terms of how this Assembly understands why we're putting this forward and what the intent of this is, but in future Assemblies, how do we ensure that the intent of this is consistent, both within this Assembly and to future Assemblies with different Speakers and a different team. I think I am satisfied that this is going to go forward to the rules and procedures committee where that will be discussed. Thank you.
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Caroline Cochrane Range Lake
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think this is a great piece of legislation. It's 2020, and I'm old. I struggle with technology, but my children and grandchildren pick it up from two years old. It's time that we got into the technical world. I am not worried about future Assemblies. I do believe, Madam Chair, that this is the way of the future. This is proactive, and we are part of that future. I adhere to that. I also know that, with COVID-19, we are looking at possibly a second wave in the fall. If that happens, it would be necessary for us to go right back into confinement. If we are in confinement, there is legislation that says we have to meet a certain amount of times in this House. This will actually address that and make sure that we are all obeying the law and able to perform the duties that we need to do as an Assembly. I am 99.9 percent in favour of this. The only half percent is my own inadequacies with technology. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Madam Premier. Are there any further comments to this bill? Can we proceed to a clause-by-clause review of the bill?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Committee, we will defer the bill number and title until after consideration of clauses. Please turn to page 1 of the bill. Clause 1, does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
We will now return to the bill number and title. Members, Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Committee, to the bill as a whole. Does committee agree that the Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act, is now ready for third reading?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, committee. Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act is now ready for third reading?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, committee. Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act is now ready for third reading. Does committee agree that this concludes our consideration of Bill 6, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North, and thanks to our witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, you will please escort the witnesses from the Chamber. Mr. Mercer and Mr. Reddy, thank you. With that, Mr. Norn.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. There is a motion on the floor to report progress. The motion is in order and non-debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? Abstentions? Motion is carried.
---Carried
I will now rise and report progress.
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The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.
May I have the report of the Committee of the Whole? Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes.