Thanks, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 437-19(2), Capital Estimates 2022-2023, and we'd like to consider the Department of Health and Social Services and Municipal and Community Affairs. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Does committee agree? Thank you, committee. We will take a short break, and then we'll resume with the first item. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

I'll call committee back to order. Committee, we've agreed to consider Tabled Document 437-19(1) Capital Estimates 2020 -- or, sorry, 2022-2023. Committee, we will now consider the Department of Health and Social Services. Does the Minister of Health and Social Services wish to bring witnesses into the Chamber?

Yes, please.

Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Would the Minister please introduce her witnesses.

Yes. On my left is Derek Elkin, the assistant deputy minister for corporate services. And on my right is Perry Heath, the director of infrastructure and planning.

Thank you, welcome. The committee has agreed to forego general comments. Does committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the document?

Committee, the Department of Health and Social Services begins on page 33. We'll defer the departmental totals and review the estimates by activity summary beginning on page 34 with administrative and support services with information items on page 35. Questions. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm looking at about three and a half million dollars of various medical-- I really have no concern with what's presented here. My question is it was my understanding that we were looking to replace our electronic medical records system, and I believe that was quite a costly endeavor, and I don't see that here. Can the Minister just give an update as to what is going on with that process. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Health and Social Services.

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. The Member is correct. The current electronic medical records system has an end date, and it is necessary to replace it. And I believe that Mr. Elkin has been participating in that process and could give you an update.

Mr. Elkin.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I'm glad I know there's a kind of a couple different systems operating and they don't always speak to each other the best, so I think this is a good opportunity, although it will probably be a very, very expensive one, to look at all of our systems.

As part of that project team looking at this, is it on their agenda a patient online portal. COVID has really pushed this to the forefront, and in many jurisdictions you can log in and you can just see all of your vaccination statuses. You can see outstanding lab test. And you know if we had something like that during COVID, it probably would have saved us a lot of headache in creating the vaccine passports and that data entry. Do we expect -- or is it one of the priorities of buying a new EMR system that that would be a function. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Health and Social Services.

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, indeed, it is a priority of a new system. It's not possible with our current system, and so it would be a great upgrade to be able to offer people direct access to their own records.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

I'm going to sneak in one more; that may be pushing the limits here. I know we have a number of software operating but we still tend to fax records. This has caused a lot of problems. Are we going to end faxing? Do we anticipate any of the software we're buying or planning to buy will end that practice. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. Personally, I would like to recycle every fax machine in the NWT. But that may not be what the department has in mind. So I'll look again to Mr. Elkin to ask him about that.

Thank you. Mr. Elkin.

Thank you, Mr. Elkin. Are there any further question, comments under the administrative and supportive service section. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am just looking at the MediPharm replacement, and I guess I don't know too much about that. So I'd just like to -- an explanation of exactly what that is and does that tie into, say, pharmacies as well, private organizations like that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Health and Social Services.

Yes, thank you. I'd again like to direct this question to Mr. Elkin.

Thank you. Mr. Elkin.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So if somebody in Stanton wants information from Hay River or Inuvik, they can pick up that information and that information in those other two communities would be able to them. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. Please address the question to Mr. Elkin.

Mr. Elkin.

Thank you, Mr. Elkin. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. No, that's all the questions I have.

Thank you. Are there any other further questions on administrative and support services. Seeing none. Health and Social Services administrative and support services infrastructure investment 3,641,000. Does committee agree?

Committee, please turn to page 36, Health and Social Services health and social programs with information on page 37. Questions. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I see there's the continued funding for the wellness and recovery centre in Yellowknife. This has been in the capital budget a couple years now. But can I just get an update on that project and when we expect construction to start. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister of Health and Social Services.

Yes, thank you for the question. I'll start, and then I'll turn to Perry; he's to fill in some of the details.

So a design firm has been contracted to provide a design for the facility, and I think they're moving towards having a draft available to share with the department and the people who are going to be most intimately involved in the wellness and recovery centre. The schedule now is for the RFP for construction to go out next year. And I think that the centre itself won't be ready until the end of 2023, the beginning of 2024. But if I don't have those right, Mr. Heath will correct me. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you. Mr. Heath.

Thank you. Member for Hay River North.

---Laughter.

Yellowknife North.

Not planning to move to Hay River any time soon, Madam Chair.

I know there is endless debates about day shelters. Can I just get clarification that the site has been selected, the one beside -- I'm going to call it beside St. John Ambulance, across from True Value. Is that the site that has been selected. Is that a finalized decision. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

It's -- I haven't heard that it's -- that it's finalized, but we're going to have to finalize it soon if we haven't already because we have to apply for a permit to the city. So we can't do that on the basis without having an affirmed location. I'll ask Mr. Heath to confirm where we're at with the site selection.

Thank you. Mr. Heath.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I want to ask, can the Minister speak to work being done to make that process easier. I am afraid that we are likely to lose this route with the current council, given their track record, and perhaps there's a way to pull some ropes. I just would welcome the political insights that's happening to make sure that that application development permit is a little smoother. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Yes, thank you. There is a plan to engage people and businesses and residents who live in proximity to the site of the new wellness and recovery centre. We are not under the same kind of time crunch we were with the day shelter. We have time to go through the process and to go through an appeal process if necessary. I can't predict what council's going to do with that. I mean, obviously, we will present all the information we have about the centre and what it's for and who will use it, and we'll just have to wait and see what council makes of all of that. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Lastly, Madam Chair, I know we have either purchased or rented or using the Tlicho all-season construction room as a temporary day shelter, which my understanding is intended to run until this one is complete. Can I just get clarification whether that money is found in the capital budget or the O and M budget or whether that's coming forward through a sup. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Yes, thank you. I actually haven't heard which budget this is coming out of so I will ask Mr. Heath for that. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Heath.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just -- I notice there is two body holding rooms here. Can I just get a bit of an explanation of what -- why we're building body holding rooms. Are they required in all communities now? Is there some sort of standard that's kind of spurring us. I just would like a little bit of clarification there. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Yes, thank you. "Body holding room" is the 2021 terminology for morgue. And health centres built prior to 2012 did not have any kind of refrigeration room for handling deceased, for the community to do the preparations or for the deceased to be -- have the remains stored until going out for autopsy or burial elsewhere or whatever. So this is an effort to upgrade those older health care facilities by providing them with these modular units that they can use as a morgue in their communities.

Thank you. Any further questions, comments under the health and social programs? Member for Monfwi.

That section we've already passed that section and agreed to move on.

Minister.

Yes, thank you. The biomedical ever-greening is things like mammography and x-ray machines, ventilators, anesthesia machines, patient monitoring machines, the ones that you see in hospital rooms, lab analyzers, and those -- whenever you think of machinery in a health context, that's what -- that's the equipment we're talking about ever-greening. And so I don't have a breakdown by community. The equipment exists in different communities to different extents depending on whether they have hospital, they have a health centre, or whether they have a health cabin. But if you want a specific breakdown for your region of which equipment is being ever-greened, I can request the department to provide that.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi, did you have any further questions? Thank you. Committee, we'll turn back to page 34, Health and Social Services, administrative and support services, infrastructure investment, $3,641,000. Does committee agree.

Okay. I will go back to Health and Social Services, health and social programs. Any questions, comments? Okay, so health -- Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to get back to the body holding rooms, I don't think these are the first ones that we've seen the department build. I just want some idea of are we looking at additional communities that are going to have that requirement. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Yes, thank you. As I said, the body holding rooms are required in communities that have health centres that were built prior to 2012. And you're right, there have been body holding rooms installed at other points. We've seen them in the budget before. And now we see that there's going to be one for Deline and another for Fort McPherson. And I don't know how many more places are on the list so I'll ask Mr. Heath to fill in that. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Heath.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And can you give me an idea I guess of a range of cost for those, because I know that they're probably in, you know, from Liard all the way up north so, just some kind of idea. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Yes, thank you. The projected total for the one in Deline, for example, is $600,000.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I think my colleague from Yellowknife North mentioned day shelters. So I just wonder if -- like, you know, we have an issue wth day shelters and night shelters, and I guess I'm concerned about the cost, that the amount of money we're spending on them in smaller communities when we have an opportunities to actually maybe sit down, take a look at it, and make something more permanent, because you know, we go year after year, you know, scrambling, looking for money. So I'd just like to get a sense of if the department is maybe going to take a look at that, a longer term look for day shelters and night shelters outside of Yellowknife. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Hay River. I'll let the Minister entertain that.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This is really more of an O and M expense at this point because we're contracting other service providers to provide the day shelters and Housing is contracting them for the night shelters.

I understand what you're saying about whether there is some point at which building a facility would make more sense. And I -- I'm certainly happy to have those conversations. But I would just say that within the scope of our existing budget, I would say that we have more urgent priorities, such as the long term care units, for example, where, you know, there is no plan B that is owned by somebody else that we can use. So, you know, it's not a firm no, but it's not very high up the list from my point of view. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Any further questions in relates to the capital? Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. No further questions, thank you.

Thank you. Members, any questions under the health and social programs? Seeing none. Health and Social Services, health and social programs, infrastructure investment, $7,434,000. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. We will now turn to Health and Social Services long term and continuing care on page 38 with information items on page 39. Questions. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, can the Minister of the department tell us where the Stanton legacy building renovations are at and is this the last time that we'll be seeing this item in the budget. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Health and Social Services.

Yes, thank you. Renovations at the Stanton Legacy project are going to be wrapping up next year. There will still be a need to staff the legacy project for the long-term care -- additional long-term care beds. So it's not going to disappear from the budget altogether, but I think this will be the last year of renovation costs for that project. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, can the Minister or the department commit to providing us with sort of their lessons learned, where the budget when, etc, with the Stanton Legacy building and see are we on track with that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

I'm going to take "on track" to mean on time, on budget. And to the best of my knowledge, it is on time and on budget. And in terms of the lessons learned, I think that's standard practice, but we're not at that stage yet.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. If we could see that information. I did ask for a commitment for it to be shared. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

I can send the Member notification that it's on budget and on time. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair. That was more about asking for the lessons learned, which now stands to be a bit of a standard thing going forward.

Moving on, I just wanted to ask for an update on the Avens pavilion and kitchen and laundry. I know that it's slated to be completed in 2023 but does have a significant component of fundraising from the actual centre itself. So is it on track to be constructed as needed and if not, will the department be looking to provide additional funding if the community fundraising does not meet expectation. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. This is a project of the Avens Society itself and it's not a project of ours. Our contribution to the project is for the laundry and kitchen upgrades.

In terms of the timing of the project and their fundraising goals, I have no information on that. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Any further questions under long-term care and continuing care? Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I -- you know, committee has reviewed the long-term care strategy and the work, and there's been some various needs assessments. But I guess there's 136 beds here in the capital budget. Do we have a rough estimate of what that then costs to operate in the O and M budget, or can the Minister just speak to some of the O and M costing that each of these beds puts on the budget. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Yes, thank you. I don't have that information with me, but I'm going to look at Mr. Elkin to see if he can give us an estimate.

Thank you. Mr. Elkin.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I'm -- I'm doing some quick math. I think this is well over $20 million a year in O and M, and I think that's even a very conservative estimate based on what I just heard.

Can the Minister just speak to, I know that Health and Social Services Authority is in deficit. We're trying to find money always for health. The costs are ballooning. Is there -- can the Minister speak to kind of whether we are confident that we will have the fiscal room to operate these beds. Thank you.