Madam Chair, committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 437-19(2), Capital Estimates, 2022-2023, with Municipal and Community Affairs, Legislative Assembly, Justice, Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, Infrastructure; and Bill 36, an Act to Amend the Territorial Justice Act. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. We will take a short recess and begin with the first item.

---SHORT RECESS

I now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we have agreed to consider Tabled Document 437-19(2), Capital Estimates, 2022-2023, and we will now return to the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. On page 65, regional operations with information items on page 66. We have questions, comments?

Oh, sorry. Minister, did you wish to bring witnesses? Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witness into the Chamber.

Minister, please introduce your witness.

Thank you, Madam Chair. On my right is Deputy Minister Laura Gareau. Thank you.

Do Members have any questions, comments under the regional operations? Seeing none, Municipal and Community Affairs, regional operations, infrastructure investments, $29,150,000. Does committee agree?

Thank you, Members. Please return now to the departmental summary found on page 64. Municipal and Community Affairs 2022-2023, capital estimates, $29,150,000. Does committee agree?

Does committee agree that consideration of the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs is not complete?

Thank you, committee, and thank you, Minister. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witness from the Chamber.

All right. Committee, we will now consider the Legislative Assembly. Does the Speaker wish to introduce his witnesses, or will the Speaker introduce his witnesses?

Thank you, Madam Chair. With me today is Tim Mercer, Clerk of the Legislative Assembly. Also Brian Thagard, Sergeant-at-Arms.

Thank you. The committee has agreed to forego general comment. Has the committee agreed to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?

Committee, the Legislative Assembly begins on page 7, and we'll defer the Legislative Assembly totals and review by review the estimates by activity summary beginning on page 8 with the Office of the Clerk with information items on page 9. Questions? Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I notice that the additional funds here are for the installation of the pedestrian walkway adjacent to the incoming road to the Assembly. Given that the ingress and egress roads of the Assembly have some geotechnical issues, I'm wondering if the Assembly has thought of perhaps expanding this and doing an entire route way fix-up in the coming year. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Chair. That's stage 4 of our plans but this is stage 1. Maybe I'll just turn to the Sergeant-at-Arms to give the -- a little more information on that. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Thaggard.

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm probably going to steal the Member for Hay River South's question by asking whether or not the Assembly has considered just widening the roadway to include a sidewalk versus creating a separate path. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually that'll actually cost more to widen the highway -- or the road because we'd have to widen it plus -- plus the sloping and cost for material will be a lot more, and also it's still a bit of a safety concern because you'll only see the lineage during the summer and in the winter, we'll still have that issue of safety. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any further questions, comments? Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Look, as a dedicated pedestrian/cyclist, even in the winter sometimes, I usually come in from the other end from where I live in Frame Lake. But I've had occasion to walk along that road many times. I've even complained a few times to our staff about how unsafe it is walking along there, particularly when there was construction going on in front of the Assembly when we had the water break and so on. So I do support this expenditure to make sure that we have a safe entrance for pedestrians. And I presume, though, one question, if I could, that this pathway's going to be wide enough for pedestrians and cyclists? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Chair. It'll actually be the same width of the other walkway which is roughly six feet. So it'll be the exact same. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Yeah, thanks for that response, and yeah, I support this, as a dedicated pedestrian/cyclist. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Are there any further questions, comments? Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I know in this last year we ripped up the road that kind of connects our services to the rest of this city and during that there was some engineering work about possibility of working with the museum and the Department of National Defence and RCMP and the city about some sort of district heating system. I note that that's probably now passed since we completed that work. But can I just get an update on whether that is feasible or whether that is in the future Assembly capital plan? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll just maybe turn this to Sergeant-at-Arms. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Thagard.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I have some reservations about this line item. You know, on one hand I am a huge fan of pedestrian infrastructure, and I think the more we can do to encourage people to walk and cycle the better. On the other hand, I -- this is, you know, a few hundred meters of trail for $400,000. I'm struggling to see it as a bit of a priority. I'd like to hear from the Speaker about is this just the reality of what a trail costs to construct these days, $400,000, or do we have some reasoning how we got to such a high number? Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to break it down,

• The materials alone is $75,000;
• Installation is another $75,000;
• Tree removal is $40,000;
• Signage, $15,000;
• Contingency, I want to say, $41,000;
• Design is $35,000; and,
• GC 20 percent, $49,000.

So that's our breakdown of the costs.

The other thing we have to look at is, you know, let's say if something happened to a pedestrian, then the lawsuits that we could foresee would be probably in the same area. So that's something we're trying to limit. And so I just thought I'd add that thinking. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Any further questions, comments? Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So if I'm understanding correctly, this project is basically for safety reasons, is that right? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Speaker.

Madam Chair, that is correct.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I guess, you know, it is $400,000 and I would ask if there was any consideration, you know, to using signage that says, you know, this isn't -- no pedestrian, you know, foot traffic allowed on that road and direct them to the new -- or redone path there that's over to the west. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you. Maybe I'll just turn this to Sergeant-at-Arms. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Thagard.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess what I was getting at was that was instead of building a new pathway is to direct them to the existing pathway on that side. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Since the installation of the pedestrian walkway from the main entrance for the capitol area Highway 4, the Legislative Assembly started planning since then to make an adjacent trail that maybe the Sergeant-at-Arms wants to add anything. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Thagard.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I see where you're going with this, and like I walk it pretty often. I'll always take the roadway, well wintertime, the shortcut, short way. Summertime, the longer way. But the other thing I guess is if there is a new trail, and maybe I missed it, but will there be lighting on the new trail as well? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Mr. Speaker.

Yes, Madam Chair, there will be, yes.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I guess last question is we still have the roadway going towards the museum, and I don't think there is a walkway; you have to walk on the road. Is that going to be -- is that further down the road where there will be a walkway going along there as well? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, that's stage two. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you. No further questions.

Member for Hay River North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. A number of my questions have already been answered so I'll probably keep this pretty short. So the stretch of road we're talking about, there was comments about the safety concerns. How many incidents have occurred on that road where perhaps someone was struck by a vehicle or there was some sort of collision or near misses, if we know of that, in the past, I guess, 25 years that the Assembly has been here? Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Chair. For that detail, I'll go to Sergeant-at-Arms. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Thagard.

Thank you, Mr. Thagard. Member for Hay River North.

Thank you. The other route that was mentioned by the other Member from Hay River was from I guess the existing trail towards the Prince of Wales Heritage Centre. There is no walkway there either. Why was this route chosen over that route? And the reason I ask is because the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre is a public building and, you know, generally, in normal times, we're also also open to the public here at the Assembly. But I imagine they get more visitors, more foot traffic than we get here. And I know that the Assembly is responsible for the -- it's capitol area, I believe. And I wonder if that path would get more use than the path that is being proposed. Is there -- is there any information about whether or not that might be an accurate statement? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually most people that use this trail are actually doing the loop. So the whole roundabout, if you will, pretty much the same but a lot of people when they're talking to work usually come either -- whether it's from Highway No. 4 or most of us have to travel -- walk by the old tourism centre, the -- but maybe I'll just turn that to Sergeant-at-Arms if he has anything to add. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Thagard.

Thank you. Member for Hay River North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So I just did a quick sort of calculation here on Google Maps of what I think the new path right look like, and it looks like it's probably under or somewhere around 200 meters. So we're looking at a couple thousand dollars a meter. I find it difficult, I guess, to support something like this just given that we have a lot of competing needs in the territory, and this is a very short trail to the Legislative Assembly. And I walk that street often. I've been here six years. I've walked it in winter, I've walked it in the summer, and I know that I'm walking on a road and if I was really that concerned, I would walk on the path. So there is sort of a sense of personal responsibility there as well to not just walk on the road. So I'm having some trouble supporting this item here.

I understand there was also a path parallel to the road that existed prior and may still exist in some fashion. I have to admit I've never seen it. So is there some sort of existing path there that perhaps could be revitalized for less of a cost? Thank you.

Thank you, Member for Hay River North. Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually, that's the route that this pathway will follow, just to save some costs and it's all about safety, as the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment should know that, you know, we have to look after our employees as well, and most of them which actually walk to work and there's not much traffic at 6 a.m. when you're walking to work here at the Ledge, so. But, you know, it's all about safety and, you know, if Members don't agree with it then, you know, it's up to them to support it or take it out. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Member for Hay River North.

Thank you. And I did consider that I don't see a lot of traffic there maybe because of the hours that I do walk that path. Yeah. I have no further questions but I do want to state that I do have serious reservations about this item. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Are there any further questions, comments to this? I'm seeing none. Legislative Assembly, office of the clerk, infrastructure investments, $400,000, does committee agree?

Thank you, Members. Please return now to the Legislative Assembly summary found on page 7. Legislative Assembly, 2022-2023 Capital Estimates, $400,000. Does committee agree?

Does committee agree that consideration of the Legislative Assembly is now complete?

Thank you, committee. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses from the Chamber.

Committee, we're going to take just a short couple minute break for the Minister of Justice to have his witnesses. Thank you.

---Recess

All right. I'll call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we will now consider the Department of Justice. Does the Minister of Justice wish to bring witnesses into the Chamber?

Yes, I do. Thank you.

Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber.

Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We have Ms. Charlene Dolittle, deputy minister, and Mr. James Bancroft, director of corporate services.

Thank you. Welcome. The committee has agreed to forego general comments. Does the committee agree to proceed to the detail in the tabled document?

Committee, the Department of Justice begins on page 55. We will defer the departmental totals and review the estimates by activity summary beginning on page 56 with Corrections and information items on page 57. Questions? Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I don't have a lot of issue with what is being proposed here, but I do have some general questions about the state of our Corrections infrastructure and see whether I can keep this within scope.

Specifically at North Slave, I note that the youth facility has very, very low "attendance" I think is not quite the right word. We don't put a lot of youth in jail anymore and we have a beautiful facility over there. I'm just wondering if the department is looking at reusing that or can share some insights on that. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So we need a facility to hold youth. Whether that is the current facility or we build a new facility, we do need somewhere. It's not really feasible to send youth away to Whitehorse or Edmonton. And I think we all know that the cost of constructing something new is a big upfront cost, and so our option would be to construct something new and then try and do something with this current facility that already exists and is pretty difficult to repurpose or to keep the facility as is.

So that's a long way to say that I wish there was an easy solution where we could say, yes, we have zero to two offenders in that unit at any given time, and we don't need that much space and we can do something else. But it's not an easy solution. Perhaps I can see if deputy minister wants to add anything to that. Thank you.

Thank you. Deputy Minister Doolittle.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, and I guess, you know, I've -- when there's one youth inmate in there, it's almost -- like, I know it's a nice facility but it's almost a backwards way of being in solitary confinement in a giant facility. Andand you know, we're certainly not going to offer very elaborate programming for one to two offenders. Can I just get the Minister to elaborate on that point, that it's not feasible to send them to Whitehorse or Edmonton. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Justice.

Thank you, and I wouldn't characterize it as solitary confinement in any way. There's often teachers in the facility to instruct students, or the -- I guess, yeah, they would be students, as if they were in school. There's, you know, guards who I know that they build relationships with. They might sit down and play a game of chess. So it's not like a solitary confinement situation. Perhaps the deputy minister can provide some more of what the Member's really looking for. Thank you.

Thank you. Deputy Minister Doolittle.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess perhaps I'll have some more questions during the operations budget on the programming. Can the Minister give us an update of the current capacity of our correctional facilities and whether that's in percentage or number of spaces that are being used. I'll note, you know, we're a very small jurisdiction, and we have three prisons or, you know, five, I guess, if you count women's and youth, depending exactly how you count the facilities. How full are they, and just some justification for having so many prisons in such [Audio] territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.