Mahsi, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to continue on dealing with Tabled Document 286-19(2), Main Estimates 2021-2022, Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Mahsi.

Thank you. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. We will take a short recess and resume with the first item.

---SHORT RECESS

Welcome back, committee. We will be continuing on under the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, junior kindergarten to grade 12 school services. Sergeant-at-Arms, will you escort the witnesses back into the Chamber. Minister, will you introduce your witnesses, please?

Thank you. I would like to welcome my deputy minister, Ms. Rita Mueller, and Mr. Sam Shannon, the assistant deputy minister of Corporate Services. Thank you.

Thank you, and welcome back today. Are there Member who still have questions for the junior kindergarten to grade 12 on page 48? Mr. Bonnetrouge.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. I don't know if this is the section, but I'm inquiring about I think you called them student support, that they are classroom assistants. Is that what they are called, student supports?

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. There are a number of different positions. We have program support teachers, are the teachers who are the support teachers in the classrooms. You know what, for the different types of individuals in the education system, I will ask the deputy minister to elaborate because, in addition to that, we also have teams at ECE that assist teachers, as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister Mueller.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi. It's getting kind of confusing in the schools now with so many bodies helping here and there. When I used to be a classroom assistant, I think we went through a program, a diploma program. Back then, I think it was over four summers. I'm just wondering because now I'm confused about the student support. I think, back then, we called them "specialized teachers" who did one-on-one with children who had problems. Your program support people almost sound like the classroom assistants, if you are setting work plans or schedules, helping the main teacher. I'm just wondering if there is any kind of training program for those people, if there is anything in the plans or if they have anything in place because I know, with the Aboriginal Head Start, for any employment at that place, you had to have an early childhood certificate, at least; as a start, anyway. I'll let the Minister respond to that. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. I'd like to ask the deputy minister to answer.

Thank you. Deputy Minister Mueller.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Deh Cho.

You say "piloting." Is that for all schools throughout the territories? Mahsi.

Thank you. Deputy Minister.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Deh Cho.

No, no further questions here. Mahsi.

Thank you. Are there any further questions? Member for Monfwi.

Masi, Madam Chair. Just a couple of questions. First is the language immersion programs. I imagine it falls under either Indigenous languages and education or minority language education and instruction; I'm not sure which one it falls under. We have 49 schools across the Northwest Territories. How many of those schools are delivering, currently, the language immersion program? Masi.

Thank you, Member for Monfwi. Minister.

Thank you. The Indigenous Language immersion program, I believe there are four schools offering it at the younger grades, up until perhaps grade 4 or so, in most cases. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.

Masi, Madam Chair. There has been an increase in the area of revitalization and language devolvement. What are the plans? Are we really going to stick to four, or are we going to increase these immersion programs into the communities that badly need it? Especially the outlying, remote communities. Masi.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. I would love to see that happen. The way education is structured in the territory, the governing system, the delivery of programming is the responsibility of the education authorities, and so it's really up to the regions and the communities as to whether or not they want to offer that. Looking at the modernization of the Education Act, this is an area where there is an opportunity maybe to be more prescriptive, if we need to be, or if that's what the public wishes, but right now, it's not up to us. However, a lot of the work that we do at ECE in terms of revitalization is supporting new language speakers, and those are needed in order to teach the courses. I know, right now, it can be difficult sometimes to find Indigenous-language speakers who can teach certain programs, and so we support their efforts in that way. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.

Masi, Madam Chair. I'm glad the Minister recognizes that lack of qualified language-speaking teachers, and we should be doing more in that area. We've been talking about that for a number of years, now. We're still talking about that. Yes, there is the MAP program. There are other small initiatives on the go, but this is an area that we need to focus on. Obviously, the language immersion program, four in the communities, I'd like to see more. It's not the local district education authorities that are here before us; it's the Minister and his department. They are the ones who are accountable to us, and we need to promote more of these, so I just want to get that message out to the Minister's department.

Another area, Madam Chair, is pre-trades in the schools. When you talk about the career development, I'm on page 48, there has been a lot of discussion on those individual students who have taken on pre-trades in high school. When I was in high school, there were mechanic and welding and other trades sectors. In the schools, within the 49 schools, again similar to the first question, how many schools are delivering pre-trades in high school, which eventually amounts to four years of taking a program and almost the completion of journeyperson ticket holders? I'm just curious where we're at with that. Masi.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. That is all the information I have here. Part of the reason is because, although, as the Member pointed out, I am responsible for education in the territory and I hold myself responsible, the fact is that education is very decentralized. The education authorities have a lot of authority. They hold the information, as well, and so we have to go to them to get that information. It changes often, so it's not something we have at our fingertips. There are a number of things that we are doing. The SNAP program is one of them, where the student can earn credits and earn money and work toward accreditation. We also have additional programs where you can get credits for working in other fields. Perhaps I can ask the deputy minister to expand on this, because it is quite a large area and there's always a lot of interest in it, Madam Chair. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Monfwi.

Masi, Madam Chair. This particular area, obviously, we push our students to enter trades and get a journeyman ticket after three or four years; three years for welding. In the past 15, 20 years, we've been pushing for students to enter post-secondary so they can become lawyers and such professions, but now, there's even more push for trades. It is lacking in our communities. It is great to see 20 students; 20 students across the Northwest Territories, Madam Chair. We should see more of these students in these programs, in pre-trades, grade 10, grade 11, grade 12, taking these pre-trades program. Once they leave high school, they have one or two years to go. That is my wish. Madam Chair, if I can get the Minister to make a commitment to provide what we are currently delivering through district education on the pre-trades, how many students there are currently registered, and what is the plan going forward? Those are just some of the questions I have for the Minister. Masi.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. Yes, we can provide that information.

Thank you. Member for Monfwi. No? Are there any other questions under Education, Culture and Employment, junior kindergarten to grade 12 school services? Seeing none, please turn to page 49. Education, Culture and Employment, junior kindergarten to grade 12 school services, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $195,033,000. Does committee agree?

We will now go to income security. Minister, did you wish to switch out your witnesses?

Yes, please, Madam Chair. I'd like to ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort the witness in, and then our deputy minister will step out for this section.

Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, can you please assist the witnesses. Minister, will you please introduce your witness?

Thank you, Madam Chair. I hope the camera saw the Sergeant-at-Arms diligently cleaning the area and disinfecting it for our new witness, to show that we are following the COVID protocols. I would like to introduce Mr. Mike Saturnino. He is the assistant deputy minister of Labour. Thank you.

Welcome. Members, we are going to start income security, beginning on page 44, with information items on page 47. Questions? Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am looking at student financial assistance, and I was hoping I could just get some explanation as to, on page 45, the changes in budget. I see we've revised the main estimates, the $17 million, and then we once again are keeping that increased number at $17,059,000. Is that due to a change in the SFA program, an increase in money, or is that due to an increase in students? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. That's due to the increased support for students in response to COVID-19. We had supports this year, and they are rolling over into next year, as well. There's also an increase in student loan fund valuation allowance. If anyone would like to know what that is, I can get the assistant deputy minister of Corporate Services to answer. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Shannon.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I was hoping I could also get a similar explanation for Income Assistance. I see it is increasing by $4 million from this present fiscal's revised main estimates. However, I see, if you actually go back two years, it's about the same amount. My understanding is that Income Assistance is always somewhat oversubscribed. Is this number more a correction of what the Income Assistance budget should be, or are we expecting a $4 million increase in the amount of Income Assistance due to, perhaps, the economic downturn caused by COVID-19? Can I just get some explanation for that $4 million increase? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. The Member points out that, if you look at the 2019-2020 actuals, it is similar to the number that is in the budget this year. That's because every year Income Assistance is oversubscribed, and the department has to come back for a supplementary appropriation. After a few years of that happening over and over again, we were now able to build it into the budget. The actual budget more accurately reflects what we are spending. This is as the Member stated, perhaps, a correction, because we know every year that we are going to go over, and now our budget reflects that expectation. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I understand that we are creating two separate Income Assistance streams or three, one for seniors, one for persons with disabilities, and then there will be the normal Income Assistance remaining there. Can I just get an update on the progress of that work and when we expect those new streams to actually come into force? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. The Member is correct. That is something that is in the mandate, and it's part of a larger Income Assistance review. For some detail on timelines, I can ask Mr. Saturnino to elaborate. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I believe the department used to do annual Income Assistance reports. Perhaps they still do, and I just can't find them online. What I would like to see is, in light of us doing this new work, a breakdown of how many Income Assistance clients fit into seniors, how many fit into disabilities, and how many fit into the third category of other people on Income Assistance. Does the Minister have those figures? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. Yes, I have those figures. They are in the paper that I'm shuffling through. Mr. Saturnino might know that off by heart, so how about I hand it to him? Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think it makes sense to break out those categories, especially just in that reporting for people who are seniors and disabilities is different. I note we already payroll them, so that makes sense. I have some concerns about the way Income Assistance works with other programs. Do we have figures of how many of our Income Assistance clients are in public housing? I know that there has been some work to make those systems work better. I still don't believe there is cohesion when someone gets an Income Assistance cheque and then it goes to public housing, or someone misses their Income Assistance appointment and gets cut off, and it affects public housing. I still don't get the sense that those systems are working seamlessly. Can the Minister speak to, A, if we know how many Income Assistance clients are in public housing, and B, any work being done to make sure that those two different departments are talking to each other? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

Thank you. We could probably figure that out. I'm not sure how easy that would be, but after this, I'll hand it to Mr. Saturnino. Part of the review is to address issues just like that. The Member points out we really have two social housing programs in the territory. Income Assistance participates in one, and housing is the other. There must be a better way, and there must be improvements that can be made. We are looking at that. Perhaps Mr. Saturnino has more information. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you, Mr. Saturnino. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Is there a maximum to what you can receive on Income Assistance? The housing pay scale is very clear to understand. There's a minimum and a maximum, and it applies to income. Income Assistance, being a needs-based program, is much more complex, but I'm wondering if there is essentially a maximum built into the Income Assistance program? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

Thank you. The amounts available to Income Assistance clients are laid out in the regulations. There are schedules at the back that list what amounts individuals can receive for what categories, and that varies based on community, number of dependents, and so on. There are some provisions embedded in the regulations themselves. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The maximum would be if I took all the schedules and added them all up, and the maximum would actually not really be realistic in the schedules because I think it goes up to 12 children or something like that. Perhaps that is possible in the NWT and true.

My concern, and I've expressed this to the Minister before, is that I think there are cases where, if you are on the lowest end of the housing pay scale, you pay something like $80 a month in rent. Then if you have multiple children and you're also getting daycare subsidized, you're in this position where you just really shouldn't move. You shouldn't adjust anything because if you lose public housing, all of a sudden, you're going to try to pay market rent, and you don't want to lose public housing. If you start working too much, then that's going to affect your housing pay scale. I'm still not convinced that the systems are working together.

As part of the Income Assistance review, I think the Minister already said this, but will we be looking at ways to make sure that we don't get people stuck in a so-called welfare trap or that we don't get people stuck in these situations where working or changing their lifestyle all of a sudden becomes a huge deterrent? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

Thank you, Madam Chair. That's the plan. The Income Assistance program, as it is, was created years ago. There have been changes to it. There have been things that have been exempted over the last number of years, and that has actually added to the costs. There is still the issue that the Member is talking about. It's easier for people, sometimes, it makes more sense for them to stay on Income Assistance than to get a job or go get training. It could be the amount. It could also be circumstances in the community. The whole reason we are doing the review is to address those issues. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. My subject is the Senior Home Heating Subsidy. First of all, I just want to thank the department for looking after the heating supply for our seniors in my community and in the NWT. It's very much appreciated. I had a wood supplier in my community. I didn't get all of the information out of him, but he was citing that he may get out of the business because one of the problems that he was citing is that it was taking too long to get paid. These guys are just small businesses. Especially if you are in the wood business, it's very, very tough. I am just wondering if you know what is the length it takes before they get paid and whether we can shorten it to maybe a day or so or if the cheque can be cut right in the office, same as for our IA clients? Mahsi.

Thank you, Member. Minister of ECE.

Thank you. It's supposed to be a pretty quick turnaround. It's paid on invoice, and when there are issues like the Member is raising, if those are raised with the department, then we do our best to fix them immediately. I can ask Mr. Saturnino if he has further information. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you, Mr. Saturnino. Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi for that. It's interesting. If it's the supplier that is going through the SAM system, that is 20 days, no short-cuts, but the amount of time, still it's not guaranteed. When I worked with Infrastructure, I know that there was an early-release payment program where the contractor was docked 2 percent for that. When we first worked with it, it was a turnaround of two to three days max, but when SAM got introduced, contractors were waiting three weeks later for an early-release payment. I am saying I am wondering if you could look at it to help these small wood suppliers. The fuel suppliers, they are okay because they are large outfits, but the wood cutters, we are getting different contractors every now and then. If we could shorten it specifically for this industry, it's a unique industry. I am just wondering if we could look at it with a different lens, as somebody puts it. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member for Deh Cho. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

Thank you. I believe the fuel suppliers are paid up front, so when someone is approved, the fuel supplier gets the total amount. There is one payment and there are no delays, obviously, for subsequent payments. I am happy to have this discussion with the department. I will leave it at that. I will have that discussion with the department because this is not the first time I have heard this issue. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi. I am glad that I reminded you to consider it, so no further questions on that one. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Marsi cho, Madam Chair. I am just looking at the activity description, and I just thought about my Member's statement earlier today, traditional economy. A long time before this system was put in place, if you did not work outside and work hard, you did not eat that night, but our times are different now. I still remember stories of some of the elders telling me what it was like before, and now that we have these systems in place, they are here. That is what we have to work with. Just a little more technical, I looked at one of the line items here, for Income Assistance and just for the actuals, revised numbers. Last year, we all know that CERB was implemented. I am just wanting to see if you have noticed any changes in terms of the demand for your department since CERB was implemented? Marsi cho. That is for the Minister. My apologies, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

Thank you. It's hard to compare this last year to previous years, considering that we went through a shutdown during a global pandemic, but there was an increase. I can ask Mr. Saturnino to discuss some of the changes that we saw in terms of increases and subsequent decreases in numbers. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Yes, I am just trying to understand a little better now. I am hearing that there is going to be a review, so do we have some timelines on when we are going to get some firm numbers back? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you. I will pass it to Mr. Saturnino for that, but yes, I did not want to let this opportunity to learn pass. I said we need to find out exactly what happened and how this extra income affected people and all of that. I have asked the department to do that work. They have graciously said, "Of course," so Mr. Saturnino might have some more information. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you. That will be a good high-level question kind of to start off with. I had something a little more detailed for my riding. Is it too far to go to page 47 for the active positions? Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair. In my riding, in Deninu Kue, about two-and-a-half years ago, there was an income support worker who was there. I am not sure if they were part-time or full-time off the top of my head, but I know that that position was never filled. Is that still on the books, or is, at some point, this position going to be actively recruited? Marsi cho.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

Thank you. I will ask Mr. Saturnino.

Mr. Saturnino.

Thank you. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Okay. No. Thank you for that, so that is a half-time position. It was reported to me. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe if I could just get this clarified. About two-and-a-half years ago, there was a full-time position there, as well. If we could maybe get back to me that information if that is the case? Because there is, I think, a service gap there because I do get quite a bit of calls for my community members in Deninu Kue. I have to call to Hay River quite a bit to get service. If this continues, I would like to see if we could get the additional support for that half-time position. Marsi cho.