Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 286-19(2), Main Estimates 2021-2022, NWT Housing Corporation. Marsi cho.

Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. We will proceed with the first item. We have agreed to consider Tabled Document 286-19(2), Main Estimates 2021-2022. The Northwest Territories Housing Corporation is included in the capital estimates as an information item, and the totals are not voteable. We will continue to review these estimates as we have for the previously considered departments; however, we will not vote on the totals. If Members have comments or questions, they can be raised at the appropriate time. Does the Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation have any opening remarks?

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I do. I am here to present the 2021-2022 Main Estimates for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. Overall, the corporation's estimates propose an increase of $9.1 million, or 8.3 percent, over the Main Estimates 2021-2022. These estimates support the mandate objectives for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation while continuing to meet the Government of the Northwest Territories' fiscal objectives to prioritize responsible and strategic spending.

Highlights of these proposed estimates include:

• An additional $5 million from the Government of the Northwest Territories to support Northwest Territories housing projects approved under Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation's National Co-Investment Fund program;
• $1.8 million for the launch of the new Canada-NWT Housing Benefit program;
• $1.7 million increased investment in the corporation's community housing support program and funding to support the hiring of a new term community housing planner position to assist with the delivery of community housing plans for NWT communities;
• An additional $109,000 of incremental forced growth funding to assist in addressing inflationary cost increases within the corporation's emergency shelters program.

These estimates continue to support the priorities of the 19^th Legislative Assembly by:

• Fostering strategic partnerships, including those with the federal and Indigenous governments, to increase the number of affordable homes and reduce core housing needs, especially for seniors and vulnerable persons;
• Reduce the cost of power by investing in energy efficient solutions for both new construction and repairs; and
• Delivering increased opportunities for homeownership.

That concludes my opening remarks, Madam Chair. Mahsi.

Thank you. Does the Minister wish to bring witnesses into the House?

Yes, I do, Madam Chair.

Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Will the Minister please introduce her witnesses for the record?

Thank you, Madam Chair. Today, I have with me president, Mr. Tom Williams, and vice-president, Mr. Jim Martin. Mahsi.

Thank you. Welcome. The committee has agreed to forgo general comments. Does the committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?

Committee, we will defer the departmental summary and review the estimates by activity summary, beginning with community housing services starting on page 372. Questions? Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Just listening to opening remarks, and one of the key things that stood out for me when I was reviewing this was the utilities line of $25,230,000. That's quite a high amount. There're a lot of units that need to be, you have to think of power, heat, and maintenance to keep these units properly for our residents. I heard the Minister mention that there were some initiatives to make these units more efficient. Can the Minister just explain what type of initiatives are in place to try to keep this line item down in the future? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Looking at the environmental initiatives that we do have, I'll have Mr. Jim Martin to elaborate on the initiatives that we've been proposing for the Housing Corporation. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Martin.

Thank you, Mr. Martin. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thanks for that response. You've checked off a lot of the questions I was additionally going to have, too. I think that my colleague from the Deh Cho is probably going to ask some questions about the biomass. We'll see, though. Just to make sure that this line item here, how it's trending, because we don't have a full picture of this. Will the Minister be able to give us a sense if this line item has been going up or going down, or is it pretty much staying level? If, like I said, from what I'm hearing is true, then it should be trending downwards. We don't have a full picture, so can the Minister just give us kind of a snapshot of the last five years of how this line item is trending? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This line item consists of partnerships as well, so I will have Mr. Martin elaborate on that line item because it does look like it's fluctuating. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Martin.

Thank you, Mr. Martin. If you could, just tighten up your responses. The Members only get 10 minutes, so that was only two questions. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for those very thorough answers. I have another quick question, a quick observation. I don't know if there is a correlation with the minor modernization and improvements and with utilities. I think the more you put into modernization and improvements and PM, preventative maintenance, I think you are going to start to see these utilities go down, but is that what is happening here in that line item, that increase from just recent years? There seems to be an increase for the minor modernization and improvements, if the Minister can answer that? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have Mr. Jim Martin respond. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Martin.

Thank you. Member for Nunakput.

Thank you, Madam Chair. In regard to page 373, heating fuel, I think with the cost of that it was MTS, government owning MTS, that would be a lot better pricing from MTS to the housing authority in the smaller communities that we represent, making it more feasible for the LHOs to buy cheaper fuel for local housing authorities. That being said, the water and sanitation, we asked over four or five months ago in regard to increasing water for the communities. The mayor of Tuktoyaktuk asked for water. They wanted increases because of so many people living in a house, five to 10 people in a five-bedroom unit. We take care of our own in regard to couch surfing, too, and they get water every two days. Why aren't they able to increase the water supplement for the communities? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank you, Member, for your comment. Looking at the increase of water delivery, I will bring this back to my department and follow up with the mayor, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thank you, Madam Chair. In regard to minor modernization and improvements, I brought up this week my local housing authorities in regard to windows and doors. If the wind is blowing right, they are getting snow piles inside. Materials that are coming in during the summer, and we have a short summer season to get all of the work done. Having to bring somebody into the community, like, for getting that work completed on time, just making sure that it's local people who are able to do that, with the local companies instead of bringing outsiders in, that has been a problem with what we have been dealing with up in Nunakput. I have been hearing from my local contractors. That has to stop, and they have to start utilizing local businesses. As for the flooring, again, I brought up the other day people in Paulatuk having to put a blanket down so that they don't get their feet so cold because of the insulation. Not only that, it is the mould issue that we have been having in the small communities. We have been bringing it up for years. When are we going to deal with this? Is it this year, with the modernization? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I did commit to the Member that I will have the Housing Corporation visit his community to make sure that we have adequate maintenance and fixtures, I want to say, do the windows and the doors, that they are adequate for our tenants who are occupying our units. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Nunakput.

Thank you, Madam Chair. No. I will wait for the proper section. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any further questions under community housing services? Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. The electrical power, I know that that is always going to be an issue because we are getting the power from either Northland Utilities or NTPC, and we are still having issues there trying to get them to help the residents lower the cost of living, especially with power. I imagine they are working on strategies. I don't know if you would know about it, but whether incorporating wood-pellet boilers would help lower the electricity rates when you use hot water through on-demand heating to the units, I wonder what your thoughts are on that. Mahsi.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Energy efficiency, as I said, it is a priority when renovating and also administering our units. I can look at that, the wood-pellet boiler system, but then I need to keep in mind that, if we are able to provide this service, then which region would be able to be adequately providing the material. I would like to look at that and justify which regions this would probably work more adequately in. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Yes. Mahsi, Madam Chair. Perhaps if that can be looked into because maybe there is a different system rather than using the 240-volt or the 110 fuel appliances for hot-water heating, the on-demand hot-water heating system. I don't know if that is tied to propane. It's just a contraption that hooks to a wall that provides your on-demand hot-water heating, but whether that system would work also with a wood-pellet boiler. That would probably see significant decrease in maybe the power bill amongst other things there. That is more of a comment in that area.

I am looking at page 374, your apprentices. I think, over a year ago, you said you were "gung ho" on getting apprentices into the communities. I don't see anything in my community yet. There probably aren't any new ones in other communities. I had concern with the Housing Corporation in my community not having qualified heating specialists on staff, and I think that goes against some of the boiler and gas safety aspects of it because you don't have anybody to look after these units in the community. There are big liability issues there, too, so I'm wondering if you would look at, because I believe I sent you a request, to possibly ticket the couple of maintainers who have been there for over 15 years and don't have a ticket. A journeyman housing maintainer, you're basically a jack of all trades. That's pretty much what you want under the housing umbrella. The ticket is not good once you're out of the housing umbrella. You can't start your own business. It's used within the housing umbrella, and it was probably a cost-effective way of maintaining your units, especially your heating appliances. I am wondering if we could really have a look at that and also the oil heat technician position. That is required in most of our communities. That leads to apprenticeship positions.

When I worked with housing and I saw housing in the past and says they're the best place to train people because of the number of housing stock in the communities, it's the best training ground, and we never, ever had that. I always looked at Public Works and Services, and they had one of the best programs in the Northwest Territories in training every trade: electrician, plumbers, carpenters, what-have-you. I couldn't understand at that time why housing couldn't. There could have been a lot of reasons. I am just wondering what your thoughts are on there, and if you would consider actions in this regard. Mahsi.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Member, for your comment. I hear you about the apprentices, but the reality is: I travel throughout the Northwest Territories, and I have asked about the housing maintainer program; I have asked about apprentices. I found that it was very hard to recruit at the community level. Looking at the housing maintainer program, trying to get very creative in how we could get these apprentices ticketed is also a priority because if we don't have the apprentices, and we don't have that skill trade, our units are deteriorating because they are not being properly maintained. I do recognize we have an aging work force at the local community level. Within the department, we are looking at increasing that interest at the community level. For an example, in my riding, we are looking for an oil boiler mechanic, and they went through several casual employment people that they were wanting to invest in. The interest and educational needs at that level, it's very hard to find, to be honest. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. Maybe I will just make a comment about that. Maybe we waited too long. There weren't too many OBMs out in the field. Like I say, you probably waited too long, or maybe you're too specific to an OBM. You can get a plumber gas fitter. That is an even better ticket to have. There are other ways you can do that. There are other trades, like the plumber gas fitter trade. You can get that position, and it will hopefully be enough to train and work with the Aurora College oil heat technician program to see how you can get these going. They will be a good source of information or the people who have taken the course, how many are even around the Northwest Territories? It's not good to have an attitude where you just give up. You have to really work at this and help the people of the Northwest Territories in the communities. We have to start training our people. Housing, as I say, is the best avenue for this initiative. I really ask you to reconsider and really look into this. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member. Minister, did you have any comments?

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Member, for your comment. Absolutely. I want to just really reiterate that, at this level, from what I have seen so far, it is very hard to find the commitment, but it does not stop the Housing Corporation from still advocating for this position, creating employment in smaller communities, and looking at the trades and apprenticeship, as well. Looking back at this, I would bring this back to my department to really emphasize looking at the recruitments for apprenticeship for the local housing authorities and local housing organizations. Mahsi.

Thank you. Did you have any further questions, Mr. Bonnetrouge?

Mahsi, Madam Chair. I look forward to your findings and really encourage you to really consider this because you stated yourself we have an aging workforce. We have lots of young people coming up behind who are really looking forward to having a specific journeyman ticket, and we are not providing those opportunities. Like I say, the Housing Corporation is the best play field for this to happen. I have stated the case of Public Works and Services; I don't know if any of your employees have ever gone through those programs. You get those tickets, and you're set for life. More of a comment than anything. I have no more questions, Madam Chair. Mahsi.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Listening to comments from the Minister there, I agree with her. It's tough to find people who are qualified. It's tough to find people who are willing to go out and work. However, that doesn't mean that we stop doing that. We have to find innovative ways to ensure that residents in public housing have access to workers to fix or address any issues they have with their homes.

I just want to give you an example of what can be done, and it's a personal one. I was working at a place, and there was an issue with the furnace. Of course, everybody was telling me it was this and that, the thermostat. They always want to blame thermostat. Anyways, I looked at it, and I thought, "Geez. How am I going to fix this?" I don't really know much about furnaces. I kind of know what they look like inside and all that. I thought, "Oh, I know this guy who lives in Kelowna. He's a gas fitter. I'm going to call him." I call him, and he says, "Did you do this? Did you check the chimney? Make sure there's no snow in there." "Yeah, I did that." He says, "There's a little light on there, a red one and a yellow one." He says, "Is the red one on steady?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Well, that's good. How about the yellow?" "No, nothing." He said, "Well, it's probably the flame sensor. You got to pull out the whole guts, just clean off the thermocouple, put it back in." I did that, and it worked fine.

Maybe that's something we can do is look at having somebody who is qualified. They don't have to be in the community, but if there is somebody there who can assist that person over the phone, there are ways to do it. That's what I am hoping that your department will start looking at, is innovative ways. I don't really care what happened in the past, all the things that went wrong and that. I'm just looking into the future, and I want to see that we are doing things right.

The use of housing maintainers, there are some around Hay River that have their own businesses just because they have that designation, and they'll do some carpentry; they'll do a little bit of plumbing and those types of things, as well. I was in one community here not long ago, and I don't think housing has anybody in there. They said, "If you happen to be talking to housing, can you ask them if they can maybe look at allowing us to change our own lightbulbs or change our own door locks, instead of having to bring somebody from Fort Simpson or from wherever it might be?"

Those are little things to us, but they are important things to people in the communities. With that, I would like to ask the Minister: what innovative ways, or any innovation, have they looked at to make things easier and streamline things by utilizing people in the community? I know that there are a lot of people in the communities, a lot of workers, who have general knowledge. We don't give them the benefit of the doubt, and we don't utilize them like we should. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. You know what? I'm very passionate about this portfolio, so I've partnered up with some of the communities throughout the territory with our Community Initiative Program. I have recognized that we do have skills at the community level and we do have people who are not ticketed, but you send them out there, you want them to renovate your home, it's going to be done, there we go. I've opened up that opportunity on the trips that I have made throughout the Northwest Territories. The last community I can remember just off the top of my head was Jean Marie River. They had come and approached us and they said, "We need to get our furnaces maintained. We need them to be cleaned. We have people in the community who can do it." And I said, "Let's partner up and get together, get an agreement signed so they can program-deliver on our behalf."

The other one is also the Tlicho; the same thing, as well. Instead of flying people in and out of the Tlicho communities and driving in from Yellowknife, I have initiated having them program-deliver on our behalf, too, recognizing we do have those skills at the community level, but we just don't have the tickets. I don't want the tickets to burden what we actually can partner up with at the community level. Mahsi.

Thank you. Member.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Can the Minister tell me, and I'm not sure, I don't really see it in this section, but the cost of contractors to go into the communities to provide services, especially in the small ones. In the larger communities, journeymen and tradespeople are accessible, but I suspect that the cost to travel into the communities and possibly the waiting time, those are things that I would like to know. I don't expect her to answer them here. How is the department spending its money addressing those small issues that have to be dealt with in a timely manner and, with respect to time, how long does it take, say, somebody from Fort Simpson to go into Wrigley or go into Jean Marie to actually do the work? Is it within an hour, two hours, two day? If I could see some of that information, and not just for those communities, but for communities up and down the valley that may not have access to housing people in the community, or journeymen, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Member for the comment because this is quite a significant problem and issue throughout the territory, finding emergency repairs to be done immediately. Some of the communities are fly-in communities where we would have to pay for the charters to come in, the journeypeople to come in and get the work done. This is why I really emphasize the Community Initiative Program, so we can enter into those partnerships. I don't have those numbers in front of me, but it's quite significant because we don't have the tradespeople at the ground level. I just want to use an example of Nunakput. We don't have somebody in Tuktoyaktuk who is going to be available to run into the community and get the job done. We would have to go through to Inuvik. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just looking at maintenance here, where it states, "funding for LHOs to undertake demand and preventative maintenance activities to support the provision of good-quality housing." I'm just wondering how effective that is because we continually hear of units that are without water, they might be without power for a while, leaking fuel tanks, and on and on. How does the department deal with those types of issues, to make sure that we actually good-quality housing? Because, like I said, I continually hear that we don't have good-quality housing. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This would be our housing maintainers that would be first on the site, and depending on what qualified skill that we do have at the community level, we will use the LHOs and LHAs first before looking for additional support. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Can the Minister tell me: which communities in the North have housing maintainers in the community, and how many or which ones do not? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm hoping that we have housing maintainers in every single one of our LHOs. I'll hand this over to Mr. Williams for his response. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Williams.

Thank you, Mr. Williams. Committee, we are going to take a short break.

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Committee, we are going to continue on with housing services, with the Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. My colleague for Hay River took a lot of my questions around the maintenance program, et cetera, but maybe, I will just reiterate then, too, that I also hear a lot. I have a lot of housing units in my riding, I believe, and people who are dealing with housing issues and absentee landlord type situations or large REITs, and they tell me that they have issues in their units, there is water damage, there are issues with plumbing, things like that. A lot of times, the response is, "Oh, it's fine. It meets the code. There is no danger," and yet, they say this is a continuing, ongoing issue. My question for the Minister and her department is, and I apologize if I am reiterating Mr. Simpson's questions, but: what measurements are in place to measure how effective or efficient your maintenance program is? Are you looking at things like replacing tanks, or we're seeing fuel consumption going down? How is that metric being looked at or targeted? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to have President Tom Williams respond because we have two different scenarios, whether it be in Yellowknife, and we're looking at the apartments or whether we would be in the smaller communities and then we would look at the maintenance programming. You could just elaborate on the two differences. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Williams.

Thank you, Mr. Williams. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair, for that fulsome response. I'm glad to hear that there is collaboration and jurisdictional scans. I also encourage chatting lots with the association of consulting engineers. I'll get a plug in for them. I think they would be a good ally, and they can do lots of free workshops for your people, as well. They often are in communities doing other work and may have an hour or two and could come in and chat with your people. I do really suggest that as a good partner group. I just wanted to come back to the department had made a comment to my colleague about putting items in the contracts around training and requirements and such. Could the department explain if there are any penalties or, I'm going to use this word again, sanctions for not meeting these targets or these promises in the contracts? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have Mr. Tom Williams respond. Thank you.

Thank you. President Williams.

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I do appreciate that. You have such a great opportunity within this department to create learning opportunities. I think, again, I'm sort of probably reiterating what people have said, but I often, in my quest for women in STEM, have talked about "you can't be what you can't see." That is a famous quote from Sally Ride. If you're not bringing in children or kids and youth into some of these builds, you always have to keep the kids out of the construction site as it is anyway, so why not bring them in at that point and show them what the different trades are with the focus on women? More of a comment. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. I'll take it as a comment. Are there any further questions under this section? Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I get an updated figure of how many units we rent off of private landlords? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll get vice president, Mr. Jim Martin, to respond. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Martin.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I recognize that many of those units go to large southern landlords, especially here in Yellowknife renting those 200 units. Has the Housing Corporation done an assessment of whether it is actually cheaper to actually own units as opposed to rent them off of the market rent here in Yellowknife? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have Mr. Jim Martin respond. Thank you.

Mr. Martin.

Thank you. Member.

Thank you, Madam Chair. One of my other concerns here is that we give about $20 million to our local housing authorities and housing organizations, and I've heard repeatedly from different ones that they would also like to be able to write grants and get money out of the federal government, especially in cases where they could probably get capital to build units and save money as the Housing Corporation just said. Why do we not let our housing authorities get money out of the federal government? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have President Williams respond. Thank you.

Thank you. President Williams.

Thank you, Mr. Williams. Member.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I've mentioned this previously, I think it has caused tension in the past that some of the local housing organizations view themselves as a lot more arm's length than perhaps the Housing Corporation views them, and I know there's debate about whether they're an agent. When you talk to a lot of the members on the boards, they want to be going and stop renting from Northview, and they want to be going and writing these applications and getting the funding. I think it's a different situation in Yellowknife, where we are paying private landlords right now, and there is capital funding that exists from the federal government. Is it possible to have that conversation with the Yellowknife Housing Authority about the possibility of them taking on a little bit more of a role and having a little more independence here? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, we can have those conversations. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I would really like us to stop renting those 200 units and build some more public housing units. Then, we will have added to the stock permanently, and we're not at the whim of southern landlords. I hope, one day, we can replace those 200 units that we rent, and it will save us money, as the department has concluded previously. My next question, Madam Chair, is the $1.8 million we pay in property taxes and land leases. How much of that does the Housing Corporation pay to the GNWT?

Thank you. Minister.

Madam Chair, for that detail, I'll have Vice-President Martin respond. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Martin.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.