Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to deal with Tabled Document 286-19(2), Main Estimates 2021-2022, Departments of Infrastructure and Justice. Marsi cho.

Thank you. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. We will take a short break and resume with the first item.

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I now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we are considering Tabled Document 286-19(2), Main Estimates 2021-2022, and we are continuing on with Infrastructure. We are under regional operations. That is on page 250, with information items on page 253. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses in. Minister, will you please introduce your witnesses for the record?

Thank you, Madam Chair. Today, I have with me Deputy Minister Steve Loutitt and assistant deputy minister for regional operations, Gary Brennan.

Thank you, and welcome back. Committee, like I mentioned, we are on regional operations beginning on page 250, with information items on page 253. Questions? Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I know my colleague, I think from Yellowknife North, asked about this. Does the Minister have any idea how much the average O and M costs are for highways? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The average on our estimates, last year, we spent $75 million as an average on highways. Thank you.

Member.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I will confess that I don't know how many kilometres of highways we have. Does the Minister have some kind of figure or the cost per kilometre? Is it, I don't know, $10 a kilometre that we pay to maintain a highway? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of highway operations, we are responsible for maintaining the system. We have about 2,350 kilometres of all-weather roads, which includes bridges, small culverts, across the Northwest Territories. In terms of costs, Madam Chair, it varies, and I will repeat myself from yesterday's question because it was something similar from another Member. It talked about, for all the different highways that we have across the territories, we have some that are chipsealed, some that are cement, and some that are just gravel roads. It would vary in terms of costs. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Maybe I will try it again. Is there a range that the Minister could give us, cost per kilometre, for O and M for highways? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will ask ADM Brennan to give a range. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Brennan.

Thank you, Mr. Brennan. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Bingo, I got it. I appreciate that. I think this is the part of the budget where the Yellowknife Airport Revolving Fund is found as an information item. I'd like to know: there seems to be quite a lot of money that's built up as surplus in this fund. When can we expect that this is going to start to be spent? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I understood that this was just regional operations. Madam Chair, if you want me to go back to, you referenced pages 250 to 253, and the revolving fund is on pages 261 to 262. Would you like, Madam Chair, for me to do all the other sections?

No. We just decided yesterday, just because of the department and the info items are very large and some of the topics in there, so we'll just do the regional operations. Then, we'll go into another section where you can ask questions on the information items separately. Do you want to continue on with regional operations?

Thanks, Madam Chair. Look, I'm happy to get 10 minutes on the Yellowknife Airport Revolving Fund, so thank you. I appreciate that.

Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I was looking at page 251 about the amortization. I know that my colleague from Yellowknife asked his questions a little bit. I'm just curious. I looked in every department here in our budget here, and this is quite a bit higher, significantly higher than any other department for this line item. It made me think about: one, why is it so high? I'll continue on with my questions. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We're looking at the 2020-2021 to 2021-2022. There was an increase of $3.8 million, and it was basically an amortization adjustment. The various highway assets that weren't pushed into service in 2019 to 2020, which contributed to a surplus of $4 million, and as the creation of the Yellowknife Airport Revolving Fund where assets are now amortized, adds to the surplus. I'm sure this question will be brought up again once we get to the Yellowknife revolving fund. That's part of it. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Like I said, accounting is not one of my strong suits, so my understanding is that amortization is to deal with assets being written off over time. You always see a lot, I want to see if the department does try to recover that, too, when items get decommissioned. Is that line item shown anywhere, where decommissioned equipment is being sold, and if there's any profits made from that? Where would that be in this area of the budget? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to get ADM Brennan to answer this because I don't see it on this section of the summary. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Brennan.

Thank you. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for that response. I actually tried to look up this policy yesterday, even just now. Right now, that disposal of goods policy on the Department of Infrastructure website doesn't exist, so I'm hoping that the department can actually, probably, fix that and post that, and just let me know, get an update from maybe, hear back from the Minister on that? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We do have a policy, and I'm quite happy to share the policy with the Member. It's a Cabinet-level policy that provides for disposal of improved real property assets that are surplus to the needs of the GNWT. We are responsible for disposal of buildings as part of this policy. I think it's important just to state -- actually, no, I'm not going to waste the Members' time in going into quite detail on what this policy is other than I think it's important to be able to share that with him. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the response. It sounds like, then, like that page not found where I tried to click on that is there by design, so maybe, it's probably best to get rid of this, then? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't think getting rid of it is the solution, but we can be able to have a look and share the policy. I think I've shared this in the past before with some of the other Members which we have offered sale to priority interest groups in preference: NWT public corporations get priority one; community governments, priority two; not-for-profit organizations, number three; and general public, number four. The current policies require that FMB must approve the sale of surplus if it's more than $50,000 of the appraised value property. I'm not sure if I'm answering the Member's question other than I don't think we should get rid of such a policy but maybe just share it. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. I think the Member was saying that the website link is broken. There's no attachment. Member?

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just so all the Members are aware, I was looking at three specific policies: there's infrastructure. I didn't mean to go down this rabbit hole. I didn't expect to do that, but Infrastructure Establishment Policy, Disposal of Goods Policy, and Disposal of Improved Real Property. One of those links work, and the other two don't. That's what I was trying to get at. Thank you. Other than that, I just wanted to ask those couple of questions. Right now, I don't have anything further. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Norn. Are there any further questions under regional operations? Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to go to page 251, highway operations. I'm just wondering if any of that expenditure relates to new technology to address any issues with our highways? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. You look at the increase. There is quite a big increase in the line item from previous mains. We are looking at a $4.6 million increase, which is reallocation maintenance on Inuvik-Tuktoyaktuk highway because the winter road is no longer needed. There is an incremental increase for Highway No. 8. The huge part of this is the amortization adjustments for any of our highway assets. It's a surplus due to amortization expenses, which is lower in previous years because there's a delay in capital assets being pushed into service. There is quite a complex financial aspect in terms of how we recognize any of these assets and how we bring them into service. Are we bring them out of service? That all affects the amortization, otherwise known as depreciation in my time. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Take a look at utilities, and I notice that there is an increase there, about $2.5 million, I think. What caused or what is the result of that number increasing? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. When I first became Minister of Infrastructure, I did not realize that the department covers all utilities in all the GNWT buildings. When it gets dark at night, you look around and see whose light are all open. You are like, "Infrastructure is paying for that." Anyways, the increase is $2.336 million; $750,000 of that is for increased utilities for the new Stanton hospital. The decrease is the $167,000. It's a net decrease in utilities for the Lafferty and N'Dulee ferries, which is the remaining funding for sewer pump-out and fuel at the two ferry crossings; and an increase of $1.789 million for utility funding for increased electrical costs. I have got the breakdown there. It is basically utilities for predominantly a lot of the buildings that the GNWT is responsible for. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thank, Madam Chair. Is any of that cost associated with, say for instance, Snare Hydro going down and the cost of running off hydro here in Yellowknife? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. No, it has nothing to do with this budget item, but I do want to state that, just in general under utilities, we have longer, colder winter seasons, which cause increased heating expenses, so there are shortfalls in the budget and increased costs, as well. However, no, it does not cost what the Member is asking in terms of the hydro stuff. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.

Thank you, Madam Chair. That is all.

Are there any further questions from Members under regional operations? Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. I just want to touch up on under facilities management. In the small communities, I know the outlying communities, like in Fort Providence and Fort Resolution, they have settlement maintainers. I know it's costing the department quite a bit of money every time one of heating boilers or whatever goes down in either Fort Resolution or Fort Providence. The operating engineers have to come from Hay River, and we don't know if they will come all hours of the night most times. I had brought this up when I was an employee in Infrastructure, but it has not gotten anywhere.

However, I was really hoping this department would really look into providing training for those settlement maintainers at Aurora College because, every year, Aurora College, sometime in May, has a six-week oil heat technician training. It used to be OBM. They are open for anybody with an electrical ticket, but if not, there is specialized training that you could work in conjunction with the Housing Corporation. If you even went on a course for furnaces and boilers, the theory and the practical instruction that they get onsite opens their eyes as to what they are really dealing with. It certainly has for me.

I have worked as a housing maintainer for quite a number of years in my community. When you go get the theory and the training, you are sitting in front of a furnace for four weeks, and you are able to wire it at the end of the course. That is really something. When you learn about the boiler systems, the zone valves, and everything, it really opens your eyes to what you are really dealing with and what you can do in the communities. I don't want to drag this on any further, but I was really hoping that the department would consider helping those settlement maintainers in the communities. Let's get some training done. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Department of Infrastructure has a lot of specialized training, including building maintainers, which are an important role in ensuring that our communities are kept going, that the assets are kept going. I do want to turn this over to Deputy Minister Loutitt, just to expand a little bit further. I think this is an opportunity to be able to just talk about some of the great things that we are doing with other departments, including our friends at MACA and housing. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister Loutitt.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Deh Cho.

I think I was asking about the training component. You haven't touched upon that. Like, I made a big speech out of it.

---Laughter

Good Lord, did I just waste my breath? Mahsi.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Member for his long-winded question. I do want to add that maybe I answered it; I will say it again. We do partner with our friends, our department, our colleagues at Municipal and Community Affairs under their training program. They have a number of training programs that are offered for recreation, for facilities maintainers, and as a department, we utilize some of those training opportunities for our communities to get some of the training and the skills to be able to stay local in our communities. I think that is important, to be able to build the capacity for building maintainers to come and get the training here in the territories, finish your program and come back to your community and be able to work. I think that is an opportunity for us to continue the partnership. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Deh Cho.

Yes. Thank you for that. It's interesting to note that you do have 14 settlement maintainers spread out throughout the territories, and I imagine they are in the smaller communities, not in the larger centres. The larger centres, they carry the operating engineers. They are the ones who deal with all of the heating appliances. I suppose, say you were in a community like a fly-in community, maybe Aklavik; somebody would have to fly in from Inuvik who is an operating engineer or else from Fort McPherson. I don't know if they have one there.

What I am saying is: can we get these settlement maintainers trained up in oil heating technician? That opens their eyes so that they can do basic heating appliance repairs in the dead cold of winter, if need be. That is what I am getting at. Let's get these people trained up within the department. I don't know why there is reluctance to even train. There is not much training. When I was in there myself, too, as a project officer, we did not have anything offered to us. I wanted to expand more my knowledge about the building systems, the exterior systems, the updated stuff. I could not get that. Anyways, I am just arguing this one here for the settlement maintainers. If we could look at, really look at, providing that training to them, it would go a long way for savings for the department in the long run. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think that is a really good point, what the Member is suggesting. It would all depend on each facilities maintainer, whether that is something that they would want to work on. Some people just like working as building maintainers and to continue what they are doing. However, to work on boilers, I do want to point out that you do need a steam ticket, which takes some work. It's not something that perhaps we offer. I don't know this for sure, but we may not even offer some of these tickets in the Northwest Territories. If any of the building maintainers are interested in pursuing further training, then I think it's important that they perhaps come forward, work on a career plan with the department, and see if that is something they want to do. However, I hear the Member's concern where it is something that we can look at, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I was just wondering about the utilities. I want to go back to the utilities line. When the Minister was answering the question to my colleague, this is under regional operations, and she was mentioning about the utilities of just over $2 million for Stanton, why would it be in this section when it's a territorial hospital, when we are doing regional operations? I just want to ask that question.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. On an annual basis, if you look at our main estimates this year, we are estimating an increase of $35 million just towards utilities on an annual basis. That's for pretty much all government buildings in the Northwest Territories. I am pretty sure it is. If you look at the budget here, there is an increase, and I am stressing the increase of $2.5 million, the increase for Stanton Territorial Hospital utilities and increase for the electrical costs. Because Stanton just came on board in this fiscal year, we have perhaps not budgeted in the previous years such a high increase. That's the increase in the utilities. It is captured under all regional operations, such as utilities and leases. All that is captured in this area of the budget. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

On page 251, also, is the lease for the monthly payment or yearly payment within that lease for Stanton, also? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. The Department of Infrastructure looks after leases, as well, for the majority of the departments here. We are looking at such a large increase this year because we are looking at the Stanton legacy and the Child and Family Services program and the temporary student housing funding for Education, Culture and Employment. The increase this year is quite a bit. It's $3.4 million for increases in those facilities, but yes, we do cover a lot of the leases, including Stanton. I think that's what the Member is asking. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

Madam Chair, for clarity, the lease payments for Stanton, the main hospital and the legacy building that we don't own anymore, are part of this lease payment in here? Am I correct, Madam Chair?

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The quick answer is no, but I want to have ADM Brennan explain a little bit more on some of the details. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. ADM Brennan.

Thank you, Mr. Brennan. Member for Thebacha.

For clarity, Madam Chair, the lease payment for the legacy building is in this budget. What is the yearly payment for the lease for the legacy building that we do not own anymore? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. On a yearly basis for the lease for the Stanton legacy building, we pay $1,821,000 a year. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

Madam Chair, that would be fine if it was owned by a northern business. I am very pro-business, and I believe in making sure that businesses survive in the North. When it's paid to an outside firm, these tremendous amounts, especially when we used to own the building, that is unacceptable. I don't know how people thought about these things, especially with the legacy building because we owned it. Now, we don't, and now, we are paying that amount of lease on it. We are using public funds, and that, to me, is very unacceptable. It's just a comment. I want to see what the Minister has to say about that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Absolutely. When I was going through some of the briefings just five months into the department, I was looking at some of the costs that Infrastructure pays on behalf of, perhaps, other departments or just in general. Just a few minutes ago, I stressed some of my frustration on how much we pay for utilities in some of these Infrastructure buildings, but not only that, the leases. I hear the Member's concern. Sometimes, the decisions were made prior to this Assembly, and we are just having to work with whatever decisions were made in the past. Unfortunately, this is something that we need to look at further because that is a lot of money coming out of government coffers and taxpayers. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Thebacha.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I understand it's past Assemblies that made these kinds of discussions. I hope that future Assemblies do not make the same mistakes, especially when you're not dealing with companies that are from the Northwest Territories. We have to stress that northern ownership is the ultimate when it comes to public dollars. I think that, many times, it's easy to grandstand on certain buildings, and red carpets are rolled out for these people who are not from the North. When it's a northern company, we always have to cross the t's and dot the i's and everything else to have a foot in the door. I think that is not acceptable. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister, did you have any comments?

Thank you, Madam Chair. No. I hear the Member's concern about the costs associated with this. I do have some notes, if I can share, on the Stanton Territorial Hospital renewal project, which is meant to accommodate growth projections within the next 30 years. It is, the Member is right, a partnership between the Boreal Health and GNWT. I believe the service provider for the facility is Dexterra. There are services, such as 72 long-term care beds, 18 extended care beds, and there are a number of programs that are going into this building. I will just leave it at that, Madam Chair. I think it was a comment, but I wanted to add just a couple more notes. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Any further questions under regional operations? I'm going to just go to the information items. If Members want to look at page 254, right up to 265. Those are the information items. If you want to ask questions on that, Members. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm looking at the Infrastructure stuff on page 254. Specifically, I am looking at other operations. Any time I see "other" or "miscellaneous," it always kind of piques my interest. Can the Minister just expand on what that line item speaks to? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to switch that over to ADM Brennan. Thank you.

Thank you. ADM Brennan.

Thank you. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I heard several items that were mentioned there. I am just wondering why they are not laid out that way instead of just saying "other operations"? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to ask ADM Brennan just to speak to why things are organized in this manner because it becomes confusing for me, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. ADM Brennan.

Thank you, Mr. Brennan. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

In that list, I heard "contracts." Could the Minister just expand on what type of contracts are in this other operations section? Thank you.