I now call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of committee? Mr. Norn.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 286-19(2), Main Estimates 2021-2022, for the Legislative Assembly and the Department of Environment and Natural Resources. Marsi cho.
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, committee. We will take a short recess and resume with Legislative Assembly.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
I will now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we have agreed to consider Tabled Document 286-19(2), Main Estimates 2021-2022. Does the Speaker have any opening remarks?
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Yes, Madam Chair. I am pleased to present the 2021-2022 Main Estimates for the Legislative Assembly. Overall, the Legislative Assembly's estimates propose an increase of $1,723,000 or 7.6 percent over the 2020-2021 Main Estimates.
These estimates represent the important work we will undertake during the upcoming fiscal year and focus on the following four overarching priorities:
- addressing the need for additional office space within the Office of the Clerk as a result of an increase in staff;
- being responsive to our statutory obligations with the establishment of the independent commission to review Members' compensation and benefits and the electoral boundaries commission;
- continuing to expand our language and interpreter services within the Legislative Assembly; and
- supporting the developing needs of our statutory offices.
Thank you, Madam Chair. This concludes my opening remarks. I look forward to answering any questions the Members may have.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Yes, I do, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Mr. Speaker, would you please introduce your witnesses?
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Directly behind me, we have Ms. Kim Wickens, director of corporate services, and also Acting Clerk Glen Rutland. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Committee has agreed to forgo general comments. Does committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Okay. Committee, we will defer the departmental summary and review the estimates by activity summary, beginning with expenditures on behalf of Members, starting on page 8. Questions? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I would like an explanation of the increase for the Members' pension expenses between the current financial year and what is being requested for 2021-2022. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
I will turn that to Ms. Wickens.
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Wickens
Thank you, Madam Chair. The change in Members' pension expense is an increase to $340,000, and the change is a result of the changes in membership resulting from the election. The new membership and lower discount rate increased liability, which resulted in an increase to the pension expense.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. It's not as if anybody is going to get a pension increase, then. This is, as I remember, a defined benefit pension. It's just that we have more members that are eligible to draw down now. That's what's happened here. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Wickens
Thank you, Madam Chair. No, this does not raise the pension benefits for Members. The contribution ensures that pension plans are funded to a level to meet current and future needs of the Assembly pension plan.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Are there any further questions on expenditures on behalf of Members? Seeing none, please turn to page 9, Legislative Assembly, expenditures on behalf of Members, operations expenditures summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $9,957,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. We will now turn to the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, beginning on page 10, with information items on page 12. Questions? Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I understand that funding for the Chief Electoral Office is somewhat cyclical. If we look in 2019-2020, an election year, it's $1,486,000, and then from year to year, it's about $500 million. However, I see that there is an increase here. Can I just get an explanation why there is an increase outside of an election year? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you. I'll turn this over to Ms. Wickens.
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Wickens
Thank you, Madam Chair. The increase in the expenses for the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer is a result of staffing. They are hiring an elections administer as well as a deputy chief electoral officer to begin to staff the office to prepare for the election in 2023.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. It is kind of: we slowly bring on positions to build back up to that number, and then we go down again. Do we have any kind of projections for what next year looks like that could be provided to Members? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you. As mentioned, we look to have the deputy officer for Chief Electoral Officer and also administrative staff. I'll see if Ms. Wickens would like to add anything. Thank you.
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Wickens
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Chief Electoral Officer has identified that there will be increases in both the staff for next year and as well as an increase to prepare for the election, which will include currently right now the systems are hibernation. There will be more money put to those next fiscal, as well.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Are there any further questions under the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer? Seeing none, please turn to page 11, Legislative Assembly, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $514,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. We will now go to the Office of the Clerk, beginning on page 13, with information items up to page 16. Questions? Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see there is approximately a $600,000 increase to contract services. Can I have an explanation of what that is for?
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll turn this over to Ms. Wickens.
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Wickens
Thank you, Madam Chair. One of the big increases for the Office of the Clerk, particularly with contract services, is interior renos. What we're going to be having is renovations as a result of an increase in staff, so that's approximately estimated at about $414,000 as well as the board of management has approved the work on the establishment of a monument for the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, and that's approximately $75,000.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. There is some money to kind of retrofit the current building to allow more office space. Can I get how many staff are we adding to the Office of the Clerk and what those positions are?
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll turn this over to Ms. Wickens.
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Wickens
Thank you, Madam Chair. We're actually only having an increase of one within the Office of the Clerk. However, as a result, we currently have 24 office spaces within the Office of the Clerk, and we require 30. The increase in office space is just to accommodate our current and new staff coming on.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see that there are a couple of positions in other areas. What is the one position being added to the Office of the Clerk? Thank you.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
I'll turn this over to Ms. Wickens.
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Wickens
Thank you, Madam Chair. The new position is an official languages and public outreach position.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Are there any further questions to the Office of the Clerk? Member for Great Slave.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just looking at page 15 at the capital area development fund, contribution I see that there was no contribution made in 2019-2020, but $50,000 for the last year or so. Just curious to know if Mr. Speaker or the Minister could speak to where this money was used and sort of maybe to the efficacy of it, how well it did? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Sorry, I don't have an earpiece here. Could the Member repeat the question, please?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
I'll just get you an earpiece, just wait. All right. Can you hear me? Can you repeat your question?
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Sure. That will actually hopefully make me be able to make it clearer. I'm just curious to know a little bit more about the capital area development fund on page 15. I note that there was no money for it in 2019-2020. I think it sounds like a great idea from reading the description. If the Minister could just speak to how that money was used and how efficient it has been used in the capital. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We'll turn this over to Ms. Wickens. Thanks.
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Wickens
Thank you, Madam Chair. The committee was established in 2021, and that was to having each party -- so this was the committee which includes Members of the Legislative Assembly, the Yellowknife City Council, the RCMP, the Yellowknife Dene, and the Department of National Defence. Each party was contributing $50,000 to go towards the capital development fund. That is an area that we currently all share. That is the causeway to the city centre. Unfortunately, each party was to contribute $50,000 to do a monument of sorts in that area. However, this fund actually didn't come to fruition, so the money that's been currently used for that is just to go to general maintenance of the area, which includes snow removal, the flags causeway, and as well as gravel spreading. That's currently right now. We are going to engage conversation again with the committee to see if there is the option of that. Right now, there is no money that is going into that fund.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the clerk responding to what was going to be my next question as to what was going to happen now that that wasn't going to happen. Can someone explain what this monument was for? Is this the one for the missing and murdered Indigenous women? Thank you.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you. I'll turn this over to Ms. Wickens. Thanks.
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Wickens
Thank you, Madam Chair. No, the funding was to go towards a large monument or just enhancement of the site itself, but it just never came to fruition.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Any further questions under Office of the Clerk? Seeing none, please turn to page 14. Legislative Assembly, Office of the Clerk, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $9,417,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. We will now turn to the Office of the Speaker, beginning on page 17 with information items up to page 19. Questions? Seeing no questions, please turn to page 18. Legislative Assembly, Office of the Speaker, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $508,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. We will now go to statutory offices, beginning on page 20, with information items on pages 23 and 24. Questions? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I see that there are a few areas of increases, here, and maybe I'll speak with the Ombud office. Can someone explain to me what the increase here is all about? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you. The increase is to the Ombud's compensation and benefits of $5,000; also, a new intern position at $58,000. The intern funding will offset costs. Also, an increase to the telecommunication contract of $13,000, with a reduction in materials and supplies of $5,000. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. It sounds good to have an intern working with the Ombud. How about the increase in the Language Commissioner office there? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you. I'd like to thank the Member for asking me this question here. We have an increase to the Commissioner's compensation and benefits of $132,000, also an increase of $53,000 to move the admin from part-time to full-time. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair, and you're welcome to the Speaker for asking these questions. I have one more, if I could. There is an increase of the director, Human Rights Commission line of about $200,000, and I'd like to get an explanation there. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The increase of actually $169,000 is an increase to the executive director compensation and benefits of $12,000; also a new position. They have had an unfunded intern on staff for two years who carried a full workload. They requested that this position turn into a full-time human rights officer position, increase of $140,000, also an increase to their travel budget to support a pilot program that they are launching, which will allow two trips per year for the Human Rights Office to visit the five regional centres. The pilot program would have the commission utilize their accumulated contribution to fund the contract community reps in communities outside of Yellowknife, to provide part-time services in restorative human rights education and information to community members. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. No, that all sounds good. Another intern position and increased travel to promote the Human Rights Commission, I'm all happy with that. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just looking at the active positions on page 23, and I'm just curious to know about the position that is no longer there in the Sahtu. Has that position been moved to the South Slave? Is that one of those positions, or has it been something different? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you. I'll turn this over to Ms. Wickens. Thank you.
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Wickens
Thank you, Madam Chair. In the previous fiscal, we were going to establish the Official Languages Office in the Sahtu, and funding came along with that position. However, since the new Languages Commissioner is now located in Fort Smith, that position has been relocated to there.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Any further questions under the statutory offices? Seeing none, please turn to page 21. Legislative Assembly, statutory office, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $4,047,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Members. Please return now to the departmental summary on page 5. Legislative Assembly, operations expenditures, total department, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $24,443,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, committee. We have concluded consideration of the Legislative Assembly. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you to the witnesses appearing before us. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses from the Chamber. Committee, we will just take a couple of minutes' break just so I can get the next department ready.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Committee, we have agreed to consider Tabled Document 286-19(2), Main Estimates 2020-2021, and Environment and Natural Resources. Does the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources have any opening remarks?
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thanks. I do, Madam Chair. I am here to present the 2021-2022 Main Estimates for the Department of Environment and Natural Resources. Overall, the department's estimates propose an increase of $789,000 or 0.8 percent over the Main Estimates 2020-2021. These estimates support the mandate objectives for the Department of Environment and Natural Resources while continuing to meet the GNWT's fiscal objective to prioritize responsible and strategic spending.
Highlights of the proposed estimates for the department include:
- New initiative funding of $2.711 million, which includes funding for sustainable livelihoods and funding to implement the NWT Climate Change Strategic Framework and action plan;
- Forced growth funding of $127,000 for increases in air tanker contract costs;
- An additional $58,000 to administer French language services; and,
- Sunsets of $1.802 million in funding for completed initiatives related to environmental assessment requirements for the Inuvik-Tuktoyaktuk Highway, the agriculture strategy, the pan-territorial vision for sustainable development of offshore oil and gas, and planned reduced federal funding for the nature fund agreement and conservation and recovery of the Bathurst and barren-ground caribou herds.
These estimates continue to support the priorities of the 19th Legislative Assembly by:
- Implementing the NWT climate change strategic framework and action plan to ensure our government makes informed decisions and shows leadership for transitioning away from fossil fuels and building resilience to the effects of climate change;
- Implementing ENR's sustainable livelihoods action plan, including supporting residents and Indigenous governments and organizations with new and modified harvester support programs to increase food security;
- Taking key actions to support the implementation of UNDRIP through the co-management of wildlife, waters and protected areas, and with land-based programming and to ensure Indigenous rights, culture, heritage, language, and traditional knowledge are at the heart of our program and service delivery;
- Building on our efforts to support regional decision-making by establishing management boards for territorial protected areas and working with our partners to develop regional forest management plans; and,
- Increasing employment in small communities through Territorial protected areas, waste reduction and diversion programs, forestry operations, and research and monitoring programs. These programs already support over 800 full-time, part-time and seasonal or casual jobs in small communities and there are opportunities for growth in the future.
That concludes my opening remarks. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.
Thank you. Does the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources wish to bring witnesses into the House?
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses for the record?
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. At the table is Deputy Minister Erin Kelly, as well as director of finance and capital planning, Jessica St. Arnaud.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you and welcome. The committee has agreed to forego general comments. Does committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Committee, we will defer the departmental summary and review the estimates by activity summary, beginning with corporate management, beginning on page 72, with information items on page 75. Questions? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. If we can start on page 73. When I look down the program detail line for 2021-2022, all of those items are actually reduction from the previous year except for policy, legislation, and communications. Can someone tell me what's going on here? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. For corporate costs, you see a reduction of $21,000. Basically, it's amortization adjustment. Then on the directorate, we see a decrease again as amortization, and then, the field support unit, yet again, amortization adjustment. On financial and capital planning, we see it decreased due to a transfer to the FMD South Slave to support historical spending. Number eight is, again, a decrease of $217,000 due to $172,000 of community hunter and assistance program, one-time supplemental; $150,000 sustainable livelihood program, one time supplementary; $110,000 sustainable livelihood program initiative; and a $5,000 amortization adjustment.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I appreciate that from the Minister. I'm a bit concerned that the core of ENR is starting to shrivel up again because this is what supports all the other work that the department does. I want to ask: the policy legislation communications line, there's no increase there yet. As I understand it, the department is doing work on the Forestry Act, the Environmental Protection Act, Waters Act, and Protected Areas Act. There's some work being done on regulations as I understand it. Where is the capacity of the department if there's no increased funding to do all of this work? Is it just being done off the sides of people's desks? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. In regards to the work, we're very capable of doing it. It's a discussion that we've had, but for further detail with your permission, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. While policy, legislation, and communications provides a support function for legislated development, the majority of the work is done within the divisions by forest management, for example, for the Forest Act or by the conservation group for regulations related to Thaidene Nene and Tu'eyeta, the Waters Act would be the water monitoring and management division, et cetera. There is a lot of capacity within the divisions, and they are supported well by the staff that we do have in the policy, legislation, and communications division. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Just in case anybody gets the wrong idea here, I am not saying that staff are not capable of doing the work. I know that they work very, very hard, and we saw that in the 18th Assembly. I just don't want to kill them with the work like we almost did with what we put onto them at the end of the 18th Assembly.
On Friday of last week, I can't even remember what day it is anymore, we reviewed the ITI budget, and they had over half a million dollars for a new unit that they had created for implementation of the Mineral Resources Act alone. It was $360,000 if they could contract work out with, and then they had moved a couple of staff people in there to develop regulations. I'm just astounded that we have one department that takes that approach and other departments don't do the same thing. I know that these folks at ENR work very, very hard, but I am worried that they don't get the support that they need to get the work done. Why has the Minister not gone to the FMB to get more resources so that they can get the work done in a timely fashion? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. I thank the Member for his passion, and I appreciate the good words he says about ENR. When we talked about this and we looked at our budget and we looked at what our legislation is going to be and our requirements, we feel presently that we can do the work with the different divisions within the department. We are able to achieve that. If we need to, I will not hesitate to come back and ask for more money if we require it, but right now, we feel comfortable that we are able to achieve it in a timely manner within our existing budgets presently. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I appreciate the Minister saying that. I pleaded with the previous Minister in the last Assembly to get more resources to get the work done, and I continue to do that. I will probably be here a year from now asking the same question. I want to move on to the Community Harvester Assistance Program. I think this is the place to talk about this. It's kind of hard to know. That program is very effective in terms of building food security. It gets people out on the land doing stuff that they like, and it hasn't been increased for a number of years. We had understood that it was under review. What's the status of the program, and when is there going to be some more money? Is there any new money in this budget for the Community Harvester Assistance Program? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. Before I turn, with your permission, to the deputy minister, we made a commitment to evaluate that. We are in the process of doing that, and we are working on it. We do have a variety of other programs out there on top of CHAP, but I will turn to the deputy minister for details in regard to CHAP. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The review of the CHAP program has begun. I think it's important to recognize that there are a number of programs, not just CHAP, that ENR provides to support this type of activity, and when we went out and did the engagement to develop the Sustainable Livelihoods Action Plan, there were some concerns that were brought forward related to how that program money was being distributed in communities.
We really want to make sure that we are being as effective as possible and learning what we need to and making sure that those who need the funding are able to access it. We are going to do the review, and based on the outcomes of the review and the other program work that we are doing, we will make a determination of whether there is enough funding or not. We look forward to pulling that information together in the next four months and being able to make some recommendations based on the review. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I recognize there's a pandemic going on, but I asked these questions a year ago because we wanted to try to increase the CHAP funding at that point. Has this review been delayed? When is the Minister going to be in a position where he can share a copy of the evaluation with standing committee? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. For that detail, I will turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. This program requires that we speak to the people who are accessing it, and many of the communities post-COVID were not comfortable with those types of meetings and discussions occurring. We are now in a place where we have been able to revamp the program so that we have opportunities digitally but also where communities can meet internally and provide answers to the questions that have been provided. As I mentioned, we are hoping to have a "what we heard" completed with recommendations within the next four months. We recognize the importance of this program, not only to Members of the Legislative Assembly, but also to the residents of the Northwest Territories. That's why we need to make sure that we are doing it right and that there are points where those in communities who are land users and who are harvesters have the ability to provide input into the program review. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. We will make that commitment to get that to committee. We will get that "what we heard" report so the committee is well aware of what we are doing. It's not going to be a hidden document. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will just look at page 74. I am looking at the disaster compensation line of just $15,000. The actuals in 2019 were only $4,000. Obviously, that would be one that, I am sure, is dependent on what happens in that year. Given the situation that's happened with the high water levels this past year and potential for this situation to occur in the upcoming years, do we anticipate that we are going to actually see more money needed here, or does the department think that any compensation that we provide will come under federal funding? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. This program is not generally oversubscribed. We know right now that we have already increased the amount of funding that can be accessed for those that experience the very damaging effects of the flood on the Taltson this fall to $40,000, and we are just finalizing the criteria for that funding at this time. The funding for this is at $4,500 per recipient. We do realize that there will be more spent on this this year than there has been in previous years. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will make sure I follow up with my colleague to find out if that $4,500 will be enough for the compensation that some of these trappers may need, just to get a better idea of that. Again, the next question I have is around the fur price program. I probably am a little bit ignorant here, but just in general, with our fur programs, given that the fur auctions are likely not to go ahead or go ahead in a similar manner and that buyers would like to purchase furs that they can actually touch versus doing anything virtually, there is expected to be a decline coming up in fur sales. I'm just wondering: is this the area, or does the department give help to trappers in that area, and is this going to be where this money would be coming from? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. In regard to that program, we actually pay our trappers the rates, and then we do take it down to auction. The Member is correct; it's not right now. They like to be hands-on. We warehouse it. We have a good place to maintain the furs. When we do go to auction, we are able to sell it. If there is an increase in the fur, I think I will actually just go for that detail to the deputy minister. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. As the Minister was saying, we have quite a few programs that help to support harvesters and trappers, and we are actually looking at more. I would definitely mention that the harvester fur auction is anticipating that the April 2021 auction will do better than it has in the past because people are running out of raw inventory materials. That will most likely be furs that are not as expensive because people like to handle the furs when they are more expensive buys, for sure. However, something that we would like to point out is that we are working with ITI to look at different market pathways, working with trappers, processors, artisans, and manufacturers to identify areas for innovation, and we are planning a fur industry round table to try to look at ways to help with revitalization of this industry. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate that the deputy minister keeps answering my questions ahead of when I am actually going to ask them. That was going to be my next question. I do recognize there are a lot of different programs here, and I am happy to hear that we are trying to be innovative when it comes to fur and how we can use that for our economy. I am personally trying to do my best to support our arts program and their use of fur. Yes, I would just say more as a comment that I would support more line items increasing in this area. Thank you, Madam Chair. I am done.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member. I will take that as a comment. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
I put my head down to check out who is next. Are there any other questions? Member for Hay River South.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just on page 74, the community foods there, I see that, in 2019-2020, it was at $239,000; then it dropped down in 2021 to $50,000, and it stayed like that. What was the reason for that? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The engagement on the Sustainable Livelihoods Action Plan occurred in that year, so there were 18 community meetings that were held across the Northwest Territories. The amount that we have for ongoing is $50,000 because we do not need to do the same level of engagement that we did for development of the action plan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to go to the fur price program, as well. In the news there, I see that there was a bunch of polar bear hides sent back or looking to get sent back into Nunavut. I am just wondering if that is happening here in the territories. Are there furs down south that will be returned to the NWT because they cannot be sold? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. Our furs are actually in the North. We keep them here. We take them down to auction. We do not leave them down there. My understanding is we do not leave them down there. Basically, we give the trappers their money up front; then we send it out. As the deputy minister says, April, we are looking that it will be better sales for us. Right now, we are not in the same boat as the Nunavut government. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. When the furs go south and I guess because of maybe COVID-related issues and prices are down, will the trappers be compensated or will there be an increase in their compensation to keep them up to a level of kind of where they have been in the past? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. Because of the Genuine Mackenzie Valley Fur Program and the way that it works, there are advances that are made and there are grubstake payments that are made to trappers, so they have already received some funding before the auction happens. This is the reason that the system was built the way that it is, so we kind of have built-in insurance where that is concerned. Obviously, there are ways that we can do things better and with COVID changing the lay of the land where fur is concerned. We are definitely looking into this, and it will be part of the discussions that we have when we look at the innovation opportunities for the industry. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to the fur, is any of it actually sent south and prepared there and brought back to the NWT for use by northern artisans? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. My understanding is: yes, that that does occur. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. That is good to know because I usually get people asking me where they can buy fur from. I just want to go to Take a Kid Trapping in case I want to take one of my kids.
---Laughter
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Anyways, can you talk a little bit about that program? I see it went in 2019-2020 from $48,000 up to $125,000, so I suspect that is the interest in it since that is what's happening. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
I will start, and then I will turn it over to the deputy minister. Take a Kid Trapping is a combination of a couple of departments working together. ENR is the lead on it. We have seen a decline in applications in the previous years, but for the detail of the discrepancy, I am going to turn it to the deputy minister with your permission. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would definitely say that the actuals in that year were lower because of COVID, as well. A lot of the Take a Kid Trapping program happens later on in the spring of the year, and at that point, we were not doing programs like that. However, as the Minister mentioned, there has also been a decrease in applications. I know that the people in our on-the-land unit are hard at work trying to promote this program to make sure that it can be happening in communities in the NWT. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will just move to that disaster compensation, as well, and the $15,000 there. With respect to what happened around the Fort Smith area and that with the trappers because of the high water, I am not sure if that is looked at as a natural disaster or what, but is the department looking at maybe defining what a disaster actually is with respect to trappers? There seemed to be something just in the news, whether it is true or not, that government first came out and said it was not our fault, so I am just not sure if we have any definitions or how we take responsibility for high water or whatever. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. As for the definition, I will probably get the deputy minister to try to give that. It was not the Taltson Dam. That did not cause it. It was Mother Nature, a whole bunch of tributaries, lots of water, lots of snow and rain, so it had an impact on it. We do have a definition that we use, and that there is part of it. For the definition and detail of what we do, I am going to turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. Flooding is certainly one of the natural disasters that one can apply for funding under this program for, but there are criteria that are part of that program. For the program at the $4,500 level, which is the program that is usually available, it has a relationship to 25 percent of your income coming from trapping. With respect to what happened this year on the Taltson, because of the magnitude of effect, it's unprecedented, the amount of damage that happened in that area. We have set up a program specifically for Taltson, and it's up to $40,000. The criteria are being finalized right now, but they are slightly different to accommodate the situation that we're in at this particular moment in time. Again, that is specific to the Taltson issue, but flooding that happens in other areas of the NWT would be eligible as long as the people meet the criteria, the claim meets the criteria of the fund. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to turn to traditional knowledge. With respect to that fund there, I see that it was $7,000 in 2019-2020, and it's gone up to $65,000. I'm just wondering, I would ask how it's used. I see that it says here that it carries out specific wildlife and forestry research. Does that include getting information from elders, picking the knowledge that they have, and if so, is there compensation related to that? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thanks. I'll start, and with your permission, I'll ask you to go to the deputy minister. With the variance there with the $7,000 to $65,000, it was actually due to a coding error, payments made out of other contribution lines, so that's what we had there. The traditional knowledge funding helps communities carry out specific projects related to collection of traditional knowledge and many other projects, including traditional knowledge and cultural components. Traditional knowledge contributes to and also ties into other departmental contributions and various activities. For further detail, I'll ask your permission to go to the deputy minister. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, when there is traditional knowledge work that's done, if it is work that the department is working with elders and traditional knowledge holders, there is compensation as part of that. Sometimes, we fund projects where communities work on it on their own. One of the most important things to consider here is this is one line item, but there is funding from most of the different activities in here that goes towards traditional knowledge. This is not the only money that the department has for traditional knowledge projects. Same with country foods, for example, or food security. These are just examples that are under the corporate management item in the main estimates. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. My colleague there just took a lot of my thunder, but I'm glad these questions were asked. Just hearing this last response, too, it did answer a lot of my questions, but I did have one just a little bit about traditional knowledge. Right across the board, I think for all departments, if there are any sort of areas where there is any sort of research being done, I think this is very important. To give an example, if there is any sort of scientific study, I think it's so important to have somebody who is really knowledgeable about the land; it could be an elder, it could be a long-term land user, knowledge keepers. It's a good marriage between science and some of the old ways.
When you have a scientist going out on the land studying water levels, for example, it's always good to go out and take somebody who knows the land. Nobody knows the land better than a lot of our locals in the area, in the North. They have a good pulse. They know every rock formation, what the history is of a certain area of land, and it's just valuable. To me, that's more valuable than any sort of PhD, when I'm talking about a lot of traditional knowledge and the knowledge keepers, so I'm hoping this funding amount here can really be looked at. I'm just wondering because I looked through the entire department and this is the only place I've seen traditional knowledge: are there any other areas where this is spoken to? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
I'll start, then, with your permission, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Traditional knowledge, local knowledge, and scientific knowledge is very much what ENR is about. When we do things, we always tap into our traditional and our local knowledge because it helps our scientists. If you look at caribou, we deal with our elders, we talk to our elders, we meet with elders because, basically, they are our foundation moving forward. They are very knowledgeable and help us do things. For the detail that you're looking for in other areas, I will, with your permission, go to the deputy minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think I'll start by answering that it may not say "traditional knowledge" in there; what it would say is that we have funding to do work on caribou, for example, or moose or water, and we would be doing that work collaboratively with Indigenous governments. A good example of that would be some of the work that we've done in the past on the Slave River and Delta partnership that involved the communities of Fort Smith and Fort Resolution, where we had scientists and traditional knowledge holders and elders in the same room and we actually have some elders who are co-authors on scientific papers because they worked so closely together. What we term that as is "knowledge co-production," where they are actually creating new knowledge by linking the science and traditional knowledge in communities. That's our gold standard. We're not there on all of the projects that we do, obviously, but we do our best to include traditional knowledge wherever we can for the reasons that the Member brought forward. I would also point out that our knowledge agenda has traditional knowledge as a cross-cutting theme, so we try to look to include it wherever we can with the research that we're doing. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for that response. It's good to hear because I'm just trying to understand that specific earmark there for traditional knowledge, so thank you for that response. One other item here that kind of got my attention was the country foods. The actuals were $239,000, and now it's down to $50,000. Is this being reallocated someplace else? Is this country foods being spoken to somewhere else in this section? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The reason that it was $239,000 was because we did the engagement for the Sustainable Livelihoods Action Plan that year, and we held meetings in 18 different communities across the Northwest Territories. We don't require that level of engagement any longer, so the funding is now $50,000. However, as I've mentioned previously, there is money for country foods in other areas in the budget, as well, that contribute to that, particularly to food security. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Thank you for that. Speaking to country foods, again. What other work is being done for studies in terms of this area? Is there anything ongoing right at this moment? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. There are a number of initiatives that are being done by our on-the-land unit that integrate food security into them, particularly related to the implementation of the Sustainable Livelihoods Action Plan, and I would definitely say that there are other projects that are being done by the Fish and Wildlife Division, as well, caribou projects where we're looking at the relationship with food security. Some of the projects that we do on alternate harvest when caribou aren't available, so moose and fish and other food sources. This is an emerging issue that continues. We continue to look for ways to do work on this item, so I would definitely say that there is other work that will be done. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you for that. One last question: the local wildlife committees here. The actuals were $109,000, and now it's $257,000. My question is: was this due to demand? In terms of subscriptions of this line, I want to know more detail about that. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. If you have a look at the Community Harvester Assistance Program line item, you can see that it's a little bit larger in that year and that the local wildlife committee is a little bit smaller. It's because they're generally on the same contribution agreements, and they end up being coded to either of those items. It's not that there's been any reduction. It's just how the money is flowed to communities. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Are there any other questions under corporate management? Member for Thebacha.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to turn to page 74. I just want to make a general statement first. Page 74 has a lot to do with traditional lifestyle. Traditional lifestyle of Aboriginal people is extremely important. I've sat here for two times now, and there hasn't been any increases in the CHAP program, which is really important to an Aboriginal organization. I know that, when I was at Salt River and Chief of Salt River, we were always asking for increases to some of these areas. The CHAP program is also very beneficial to the Metis Nation and all Indigenous people across the North.
It seems like everything on this page has got to do with traditional lifestyles, and we do all these plans and strategies that cost us quite a bit of money. When you look at some of these lines and $50,000 to do a country food strategy and a plan to do sustainable livelihoods and an action plan, these dollars should be going to the actual groups that actually benefit from these programs. I find that so many times in government and programs that affect Indigenous or Aboriginal people, we always have to be, there's always a plan and a strategy with almost every department here anyways. When you only have $50,000, put it in with the CHAP program and at least you know it's going to the individuals in those programs. I mean how much study can we do with such little money? I just don't understand how things are sometimes done. If you were in business, they would never be able to make it. When you make business decisions, you don't do things this way. Everything's got to be studied, an action plan, a strategy. Doesn't anybody in the department actually make decisions? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. Yes, we make decisions. We think outside the box sometimes. We try to be as creative as we can, but most importantly, we work with our Indigenous governments. We need to work with them. With ENR, we have co-management. We work with them. For the $50,000 and that request, I would have to turn to the deputy minister for further detail. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. All of the monies that are on page 74 are grants and contributions, which means that they're going out to communities or other organizations. The $50,000 for country foods is going to communities for country food work to help to ultimately develop the strategy, but we develop those in collaboration with other communities. I would also like to point out that there have been additional funds provided towards similar programs than CHAP. We're doing a review of CHAP at this particular moment in time, but this year, we did a take a family on the land program with $50,000 going out to families to get on the land. We did a regional harvesting training and mentorship support program. The funding allocated was $260,000 for a COVID harvesting subsidy as well as community training and knowledge exchange programs.
The reason that we did this is because, when we engaged with communities on CHAP, they said that there were some issues that needed to be resolved, and they told us the type of funding that they would like us put out. It's things like take a family on the land, COVID harvesting subsidies, community training and knowledge exchange programs. We're also working on a trappers' support program pilot with several communities, as well, because they said that that was what they would like us to put some funding into. I'm sure, once we've done the review of CHAP, we'll come back with recommendations, and as we've already committed to, the Minister committed to, we'll share those recommendations. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm glad that the Minister said he'll start thinking out of the box because someone's got to start thinking out of the box. I know that, when I was in other leadership, that was one of the biggest concerns was that CHAP program, and I think many times even in discussions, even in the last business plan that we did, we wanted an increase to the CHAP program and some of these other programs that affect the people that believe in the traditional lifestyle. That's most of us in the territory and especially small communities and regional centres.
I find that the funding is lacking in this area, and I want to know when we're going to look at this very seriously to increase the funding because traditional lifestyle is extremely important to the Indigenous people of the Northwest Territories, all people, and increases -- I've been looking at this CHAP program for, well, it's been 14 years now since I've been in leadership. It's always the same. We've always got the same amount with no increases. I just want to know when the increases are going to come into effect for page 74? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. We're not going to put increases just to put increases in. We've made a commitment to our IGC's, our co-management partners, our communities to look at this CHAP program. We've started the process. We've made a commitment to have it done in four months, and we're bringing it to committee. If we find that we need to have an increase, then that's when we come back. Right now, we have as the deputy minister has said, we've identified other issues that communities wanted, and we started those programs now. That funding there has been part of our consultation, part of our work with them, but for further details, I'd like to go to the deputy minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to point out that, although the CHAP line item is staying the same because we're doing the review, there have been new programs available to get people out on the land and to practice traditional economy. Take a family on the land, there was $50,000 that was put towards that, and $260,000 towards COVID harvesting subsidies and community training and knowledge exchange programs. That funding was made available this year for Indigenous governments to apply for, and it was fully subscribed. These are programs, as I mentioned, that Indigenous governments told us during the Sustainable Livelihoods Action Plan development that they wanted this type of work done. There has been some new programs out there that Indigenous governments are able to access, and we look forward to being able to come back with the results of the CHAP review. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Frieda Martselos Thebacha
Madam Chair, I just want to thank the Minister for thinking out of the box. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Are there any further questions? I'm going to take a short recess here, then, and we'll resume with the same activity.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
I will now call the Committee of the Whole back to order, and we are still on Environment and Natural Resources, corporate management. Member for Kam Lake.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I hear what the Minister says about not adding money to the Community Harvester Assistance Program for the sake of not adding money, but I do not see this as simply adding money. I see it as adding money to add food for people who are struggling, and so I do see a direct correlation there. Just to support my colleagues and their words, I do support an increase of funding to this because I think it goes directly to people. That being said, I do have people who partake in traditional economy in the constituency that I serve, including trapping and hunting, and a lot of the assistance that did come through, especially from the federal government and through the GNWT went directly to Indigenous governments. I am wondering if there is any relief that is available directly to hunters and trappers and if there is a line item here where they can apply directly to ENR for funding relief. Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. My understanding is that we give it to the Indigenous governments and they then work with their membership to get it. For clarity, I am going to turn to the deputy minister, if there is a pot of money that I am not aware of. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. That is my understanding, as well, and this is one of the reasons that we want to do a review of the CHAP program because there are items like this and others that were brought forward during our review, where people have expressed concerns about process and how that works and also that they would like to have funding for different elements, like we mentioned, in the take a family on the land and regional harvesting, training, and mentorship support programs, which provided harvesting subsidies and the community training and knowledge exchange programs. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. While this review is taking place and given that there is a lot of support for increasing the amount of funding to the CHAP program on this side of the House, is the Minister willing to look at increasing funding for an access point where hunters and trappers who are kind of falling into the gaps and not receiving funding through different organizations are able to go directly to ENR in order to get relief in order for them to continue partaking in traditional hunting and trapping and traditional economy? Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. Hate to say it, no. Not right now. We need to do what we said we were going to do. We need to work on it. We encourage people to reach out to their Indigenous governments to get access to the programs. If we're going to increase it, then we would have to look at increasing it for our Indigenous governments that we do use the money for. If there is an opportunity for this, I'm going to ask the deputy minister to clarify if there is an opportunity, then we can talk about it. Right now, I don't see that opportunity available. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
There is no opportunity at this time. There is an opportunity for people to participate in the CHAP review and bring forward their concerns or considerations, certainly. For clarity, there are additional funds that are being put towards traditional economy and on-the-land activities that are not CHAP funds. Those programs are take a family on the land and the regional harvesting, training, and mentorship support programs. There will be a trapper support program pilot coming out because we've listened to communities and Indigenous governments through the development of the Sustainable Livelihoods Action Plan, and those are the areas that they said that they would like additional funds. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. No. I am keen to hear more about the trapper support pilot program that is going to be coming out. I definitely support the take a family on the land program and the Take a Kid Trapping program. I find that people in the constituency I serve run into the same type of thing where, for example, with the Take a Kid Trapping program, it's an application process that generally comes from a school board, say. The school puts together the application, it goes through, they decide who to hire. I can think of a particular person who lives two minutes down the road from me who is great with kids, who has really invested in traditional economy, and I also happen to have a child who is very interested in learning trapping and hunting. I am not a trapper. I am not the person to take my child and teach them how to trap, but I think that it is great when our younger generations want to partake. I have a nephew who would love to be able to learn traditional economy and be involved in his own culture and have the opportunity to learn, but the trapper and hunter who lives two minutes down the road does not have the opportunity to seek out funding to be able to get kids involved on their own, outside of the school. I'm wondering if within the review that will be taken into consideration so that, especially in our regional centres, especially in Yellowknife, people are able to take advantage without being associated with a particular organization. Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. As the deputy minister said, this is an opportunity to look at things. I would encourage yourself and the other individual that is down the street to be part of the evaluation, to talk to us. Get that feedback in there because, again, we need to get as much information as we can to make an informed decision on how we can improve the programs that we have or add new programs. Again, at the end of the day, it's about consultation, working with people, and people needing to provide their feedback as best they can to us. They can reach out to maybe the North Slave office, talk to them as well as yourself. You can bring their ideas forward. We would look at those things. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Last question: what is the deadline that the Minister is working toward to have the CHAP program and the associated programs completely reviewed and kind of fresh and ready to go? Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Completely reviewed within the next four months, that's what we are trying to do. We're trying to have that done, completed, then we will bring that "what we heard" report back to committee. We're looking at a four month from around this time to have it completed. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake, anything further? All right, Members, if there are no further questions, please turn to page 73. Environment and Natural Resources, corporate management, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $14,547,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. I will now move onto environmental protection and waste management, beginning on page 76, with information items on page 78. Questions? Member for Kam Lake.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to start with waste reduction. I see that the line item for 2021-2022 under waste reduction has sunset. I'm wondering if the Minister can let us know the reasoning for that. Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. That was our agricultural strategic implementation. It was sunsetted. Work has been sustainable. Basically, it has been completed at this point, so we don't need that funding. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. There was a waste management strategy that was published in the fall of 2019, I believe. I'm wondering what has been achieved under that strategy to date. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. There have been a number of items that have been moved forward on the waste resource management strategy. That strategy is funded from the environment fund, so it's not in this line item. To be honest with you, I can't come up with specifics at this particular moment in time. We are moving along, and we are on target for the action items that are within that waste resource management strategy that we implement with MACA. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I will come back during the environment fund then and ask about the waste management strategy. With that in mind, I'm going to flip to contaminated sites. There is currently $339,000 allocated to contaminated sites. My concern with that is that is millions of dollars sitting within the federal government for remediating contaminated sites. Is this the area where the GNWT would be working to access those millions of dollars to be able to remediate the sites and get Northerners to work? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The money that is here is for the positions that the department has and the small amount of O and M. There is an environmental liabilities fund for both Giant and, as well, for the whole of government that funds the actual remediation of contaminated sites that finances holds that we work with them on. Right now, our work on contaminated sites is we have an approach to contaminated sites management, and we're developing the policies and procedures under it. We've just finished a jurisdictional scan and are working with multiple departments to determine how we're going to address any gaps or information that we've received through that jurisdictional scan. Our plan is to share it with committee once it has been complete. Our hope is to be able to do that in the near term. With respect to the federal government, my understanding is that Industry, Tourism and Investment has written to the federal government, and we were part of reviewing that response. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. This relates back to the conversation that was had during the corporate management section, so I think I know the answer I'm going to get. Given the focus that this government would like to put onto remediation and a remediation economy, does the Minister feel that the division is adequately staffed, or is this one of those ones where, in order to really get dollars flowing from the federal government along with ITI, there is a need for additional resources to get that done? Or is this division also properly staffed? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. While there are positions that work on contaminated sites that are reflected here because it's part of the departmental budget, there are also positions that work on this at ENR right now that are funded out of the Environmental Liability Fund because of the relationship that I mentioned that we have. We feel that, right now, we have the staff that we need. We are completing the jurisdictional scan to look at what the gaps are and what policies and procedures we need to develop, and we will definitely be doing an assessment of our capacity related to that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. In regard to the accepted waste sites, the ones that we still have negotiate for devolution, is that the responsibility of this group? Who is responsible for those sites and negotiating whether they are federal or GNWT sites? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. This group is involved in the negotiations with the Department of Lands and has conducted the work on these sites up to this point, doing the ESAs, for example. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to echo some of the comments made by my other colleagues. I think there is a need for probably a larger review of who is doing that work, whether it's ITI, ENR, or Lands. I know that the Ptarmigan Mine, the Tom Mine, those federal sites up the Ingraham Trail, there are millions of dollars that the YKDFN is trying to go get out of the going forward as we speak, and the fact that we're not sure whether they're GNWT or Canada sites is a huge barrier to that. I'm saying that to all three Ministers at once who are responsible for this. Can I get an update on when we expect to see the Environmental Protection Act?
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
First, I'll just start. In regard to the six sites, we've got a negotiating mandate from the government, from Cabinet. We are now reaching out to the federal government. We're working on that, so that is good news. In regard to when we're going to get the act or the legislation in place, with your permission, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. Amendments to the Waters Act and the Environmental Protection Act are dependent on completion of the GNWT's review of the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act. Once that is complete, we are ready to go on those amendments. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. The department's four-year business plan says that the Waters Act will be introduced in quarter four of this fiscal, along with the Environmental Protection Act. Can I just get clarification that that is not actually the case? We will not be introducing those as per the business plan because we are waiting to see what happens with the MVRMA negotiations? Is that what I just heard? Thank you.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Can I get clarification, as ENR is the department I ask questions of, on what's going on with the MVRMA negotiations then? Thank you.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Madam Chair, I show some frustration on that. The department has done a lot of work on the EPA and the Waters Act and has spent thousands of dollars working with Indigenous governments and stakeholders. It's in the business plan, and I'm now hearing that we're waiting on the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, which operates on federal timelines. Is that also the case for the Air regulations, that we will then have to delay the Air regulations pending the MVRMA?
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. We need to do work on the EPA and the Waters Act to determine where Air Regulations ultimately reside. The EPA is not a co-management piece of legislation, while the Waters Act is, and there are questions about how we do the ER regulations. We are in discussions with the land and water boards about how that will work. I would say that part of the reason for waiting to do this until after the MVRMA review has been done is that we don't want to overtax Indigenous governments with so many legislative projects to work on, so we are awaiting the results of the review of the MVRMA. It's not like we're not doing some work in the background to make sure that we're prepared. We will move on the EPA and the Waters Act as soon as that work is completed. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I just clarify? I understand that the waste reduction was only $200,000 and it has sunsetted, but does that now mean, can I get clarification, that this Environmental Protection Unit here is responsible for all of the implementation under the waste reduction strategy? I forget what it is. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just trying to figure out who is doing the waste reduction work now if it's not that unit. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Waste Reduction Unit is still there. They are funded through the environment fund, and they are the group that will be implementing the Waste Resource Management Strategy. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Sorry. I misunderstood that a little earlier, how exactly those positions get started. I see there are 23 staff here, but how many are actually working on the Waste Reduction Unit? I just want to get a sense of how well we're funding this. The Waste Resource Management Strategy is great; it has the potential to save us lots of money in making sure that, when we have to track how much it costs to put all of our buildings into landfills, we are doing that properly. I just want to get a sense of how many staff are actually in the Waste Reduction Unit to do that work. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm looking at page 77 and, in particular, the Taiga Environmental Laboratory line item. The government is going to spend $2 million there this upcoming year, but when you look at the revenues, it only brings in $712,000 in revenues. While I understand that the lab does other things besides taking in samples from the private sector, there is concern about the lab testing itself and being the watchdog of its own projects. Has there been any look at Taiga laboratory to see whether or not it's still viable to have the laboratory, or would it be better off to use this money to fund Indigenous businesses, other northern businesses, create business opportunities outside of the government? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
I'll start, and then I'll turn to the deputy minister. We need Taiga labs. It's very important. I know the Member may not agree with me; we've had conversations about that, and I respect her opinion. When we're looking at the opportunity, it's about serving the people of the Northwest Territories, whether it's businesses or communities. The quick turnaround when we get things done, sometimes it's quicker doing it, but for detail on the rationale, why we still need to keep Taiga labs, I will turn it to the deputy minister, with your permission. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. In my opinion, the lab is an essential service. That lab does water testing for drinking water sources in the NWT but also in Western Nunavut. Samples that would not last, they kind of expire, you could say, they need to be done in a certain amount of time, and they cannot be sent down south. As the Member pointed out, there really is not a business case for the lab; it loses money, so what we are doing is making sure that we have the ability to do this sampling that communities need. There are some short-term sampling for projects like Giant Mine that have to be done within a certain amount of time, and they can't be sent down south. I think that the lab has shown its versatility in the work that it is doing on COVID waste-water testing as well as the amount of hand sanitizer that was produced in the lab when we had that shortage there, for use by government departments and those who work for the government who were on the front lines there. Clearly, the work on water sampling and the sampling itself is not a viable business. My understanding from looking into this further is that some communities in the South have lost their labs that are far larger than Yellowknife because they could not make it a viable business. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I do understand what the Minister and the deputy minister are saying. I actually do not recall ever having a conversation with the Minister about Taiga lab and my opinion on it, so I would like to just put that on the record. Whereas the ability to do short-term turnaround testing, there are other labs in town that do have the ability to do testing in town. I do understand that Taiga owns a specific piece of equipment, but it's not to say that others could not own that piece of equipment and such. As well, the sanitizer and the waste-water sampling could have been done by businesses in the Northwest Territories. In fact, our own departments and government competed with a local business. That business had to apply to get their sanitizer approved by our government in order to sell it after they went into production, and then Taiga went in after them. While I do appreciate that it is good to have in-town services, there is also an appearance that was always commented on about Giant Mine and sampling and testing yourselves. That piece of equipment given to an Indigenous organization, they could be running that. It could be private; it could be arm's length. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I would like to start with the waste reduction line here. My colleague from Kam Lake asked some questions, and we found out it was for some work on the agricultural waste. Are there some studies or reports or anything that came out of this work that the Minister can share with this side of the House and, perhaps even better, the public? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. For the detail, I will go to the deputy minister, and then you can come back to me. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The agricultural waste management framework report was developed, and that identified potential regulatory gaps in the NWT based on the related controls in place in other jurisdictions across Canada. The department provided recommendations to ITI, which is the lead on agriculture, for gaps to be addressed. There was also a draft of the NWT composting facility standards that is ready for review by experts and then stakeholders. Preliminary work has been completed on NWT agricultural waste guidelines, and a first draft of these guidelines will be completed in the spring of 2021 for review by ENR. Following this, ENR will engage with stakeholders for input prior to finalization of the guidelines. With respect to sharing with committee, I see no problem with sharing that information with committee. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. Yes, the deputy minister said yes. I was going to say yes, but it's okay. She got ahead of me, so it's all good.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
I am not going to say anything on that one, but I appreciate the commitment to share that information with us. Let's just go back to: my colleague from Yellowknife North was asking some questions about the legislative work of the department. I was in the last Assembly. We actually saw draft Air Regulations, the wording of it. They were shared with committee. There was a lot of work done on that, and then it just kind of disappeared. I know that there was a lot of work that was done on changes to the Water Resources Act. I talked to some colleagues with Indigenous governments and the NGO community. They were engaged and involved in workshops and presentations, and then it just never happened. Now I am hearing that somehow all of that effort in the last Assembly is being put aside because we have to wait for something to happen with the MVRMA. I just don't get this. What are we waiting for with regard to the MVRMA? Clearly, GNWT has delegated authority now to sign off water licences, to deal with environmental assessments. What else do we need or want to allow us to do the work on the Environmental Protection Act and on the Waters Act? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. As I mentioned before, this is related to Indigenous capacity to participate in legislative initiatives, and the work on the MVRMA is going first. Once there is room for Indigenous government capacity to take part in continuing the work, as the Member has stated, there has been a lot of work done on this, we will continue our work on the Waters Act and on the EPA. With respect to the Air Regulations, when we went out and got input on the regulations, the number one question was where they were going to sit within the co-management system or within the Environmental Protection Act. We still need to resolve that question, and we are working with the land and water boards with that, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Yes. Thanks, Madam Chair. This may not be the best forum to do this, but I keep asking: what is it that we want out of the MVRMA? Do we want to be able to take it over and change it willy-nilly? There is very limited scope in terms of changing what is in the MVRMA because it is already defined in the land rights agreements. The MVRMA is just simply the legislation that has been passed by the federal government to implement the lands and resources agreements that are already in place, so I just can't for the life of me figure out what GNWT is doing to try to get control of it. If I was an Indigenous government, I would be very, very wary of giving GNWT control over the MVRMA. That would probably be the last thing I would ever want to do. I would rather have it stay with the federal government, quite frankly. I just cannot figure out what we need to do with the MVRMA that stops this other work from proceeding. Maybe somebody else can take a crack at it. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to again turn to the deputy minister to try to answer the question. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The review of the MVRMA and discussions on the MVRMA are an EIA lead. To be honest, at the end of the last Assembly, there was a discussion with Indigenous governments that took part in the partnership drafting approach and other approaches that were completed, and one of the things that the Indigenous governments said was that it was too much and that it was a drain on capacity. What's happened here is that we have heard the Indigenous governments through that review. The work on the MVRMA is happening first, and once there's Indigenous capacity available and that's completed, we are committed to working on the Environmental Protection Act and the Waters Act and looking at where air fits in there. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. It has been a long day, and I am just not getting it. I look forward, though, to this side of the House, the public, actually having a better understanding of what GNWT is trying to do to get control of the MVRMA. I just don't get it, and it's not been made clear; it's not been made public. I am really worried about that. I am going to leave it at that. Thanks, Madam Chair. Nothing further on this section.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Are there any further questions under the environmental protection and waste management? Seeing none, please go to page 77. Environment and Natural Resources, environmental protection and waste management, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $4,255,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Committee, we will now go to environmental stewardship and climate change, beginning on page 79, with information items on page 82. Questions? Any questions? Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am looking at page 82. Can I just get clarification on what the three positions that were added to the environmental stewardship and climate change unit are?
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. A senior climate specialist, a climate change adaptation programs manager, and a climate data scientist. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I seem to recall there was an announcement of a number of positions across the GNWT in regard to this. Can I just get a clarification of whether there was any federal funding attached to those, and if so, how much?
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I get a bit of a clarification on what exactly the knowledge agenda is? I believe I have asked this before. There's $233,000 here, but does this have any relation to the work being done to implement a knowledge economy? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The knowledge agenda used to be the science agenda, and then it was updated to become the knowledge agenda because we wanted to be looking more broadly than just at science. We plan on releasing the first knowledge agenda action plan next session. In the action plan that we have, a total of 18 of the 19 key actions outlined are short-term deliverables, and 18 are completed or in progress. Basically, what this is is a look at what research we need to do as a government. It's a compiled document that we can go to universities or other academic institutions and the federal government, and it highlights what our research needs are. What I would say is it is a support to the knowledge economy piece, and it is a major pillar of that, I would even go so far as saying. It's our people that work on the knowledge agenda are heavily involved in the knowledge economy conversation with ITI. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see that there is about a $800,000, I'm doing math on the fly, decrease to conservation planning and implementation, looking at page 80, from $5,263,000 to $4,400,000. Can I just get a bit of an explanation of why we are decreasing our funding for conservation planning and implementation? Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. It's due to the reduction of the federal nature fund funding in year three as compared to year two. The GNWT requested reduced federal funding for years three and four as the protected areas transition from more expensive establishment activities to implementation and management plans. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am looking at the corresponding nature fund protected areas, $1.9 million, and I heard the Minister say there that there was a decrease in federal funding. Can I get an understanding of how much of that $2 million for nature fund protected areas is not GNWT money? I don't know if it's all federal, but it's not necessarily all our money. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The nature fund money is a portion of the conservation planning and implementation funds. The way that it works is that we put forward an application for what we would need over the five-year period. It varied among years. While it can seem like it looks like a reduction, it's actually the funding is less for that year's work than what it was the year before. As the Minister mentioned, that often happens when you go from the negotiations and the establishment agreement discussions because there were so many meetings and a lot of engagement to working together collaboratively with Indigenous governments on the management. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I get some information on this $25,000 for adaptation plans? It seems to be lacking a little bit in that there is no shortage of work to be done to make sure all of our communities and regional governments are prepared for climate change adaptation. Can I get some information on this fund and whether we plan to increase it? Is it subscribed to every year? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. On these pages that are grants and contributions, this is the funding that is being given out to communities. Often, there is more being given out to communities from different areas in the department. If we are working on adaptation related to wildlife, there could be funding that is coming from that group. If we are working on adaptation from another division, they could be providing funding. This is what's under this group for adaptation, and it's money that is going out to communities. It doesn't mean that there isn't money, and in this case, there is money in that unit itself to support community adaptation. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just looking at page 81, a couple of line items here: IRMA and nature fund protected areas. I'm just looking at the description here. It's the assistance for Indigenous communities in unsettled land claims to participate in land and resource management processes. My question for the Minister here is: which communities are they referring to in this line item? Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, Madam Chair. For that detail, I will turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. Acho Dene Koe First Nation, Akaitcho First Nations, Deh Gah Got'ie First Nations, Dehcho First Nations, Deninu Kue First Nation, Fort Providence Metis Council, Fort Resolution Metis Council, Fort Simpson Metis Nation, Fort Smith Metis Council, Hay River Metis Government Council, Jean Marie River First Nation, Ka'a'gee Tu First Nation, K'atlodeeche First Nation, Lidlii Kue First Nation, Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation, Nahanni Butte Dene Band, North Slave Metis Alliance, NWT Metis Nation, Pedzeh Ki First Nation, Sambaa K'e First Nation, West Point First Nation, and Yellowknives Dene First Nation. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for that list. Maybe this might be a taller ask, but when will we get a breakdown of what each organization gets just to have an idea? My other question is: just going back through the years here, has this been prescribed properly? Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. Yes, we will be able to share it. I would assume that it's been managed properly. It's been looked after properly, but for clarity, I will ask the deputy minister to provide further information. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a program that came over with devolution, and our department has done a program review early on and has meetings annually to work with these communities on how the distribution occurs. I would definitely say that there's been a lot of discussion and input into this program. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is good to know. Like I say, hopefully, in the future, we will see some of the list that you gave me settle their land claims, and we'll go that route. Good. Moving along, nature fund protected areas, there are three protected areas here. Again, I'd like to know what the breakdown is for that $1.9 million? Marsi cho.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
For that detail, I would turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. For clarification, is the question, who the money is going to? Fort Resolution, Yellowknife, Fort Good Hope, Lutselk'e, Yellowknife, Northwest Territories Metis Nation, Wilfred Laurier University, Yamoga Land Corporation in Fort Good Hope, and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation in Yellowknife. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you for that response. My other question is: what is the split between the three protected areas in terms of this budget line item? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. That's a little bit of a challenging question because there's nature funds, money that comes to the GNWT that is distributed to the communities. The communities also get nature fund money themselves. The split, the way that it is looking with the GNWT funding and the Government of Canada funding is $1.137 million for Tsude Niline Tuyeta and $1.282 million for Thaidene Nene and $619,000 for Dinaga Wek'ehodi. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for that. I don't have any other questions on this section. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member. Members, we're going to take a recess, and we'll resume on the same activity.
---SHORT RECESS
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
I will now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we were on Environment and Natural Resources, environmental stewardship and climate change. Are there any questions? We've gone through Yellowknife North and Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Are there any questions from Members under this section? Seeing none, please go to page 80. Environment and Natural Resources, environmental stewardship and climate change, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $14,638,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Member
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. We will now go to forest management beginning on page 83 with information items on page 86. Questions? Member for Yellowknife North.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I get an update on where the forest act is?
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. We have issued an invitation to IGCS members to participate in the development of the forest act in accordance with the new IGC legislative protocol. Numerous IGC members have indicated their interest. Our next step is to have a technical briefing this month with interested IGCS members, after which the timeline and technical working group structure will be determined to move forward. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Glad to hear that it's not dependent on the MVRMA. I recognize that we have developed a new IGCS protocol and we're trying to honour our commitment to a co-drafting process, and I'm happy to hear that. Can I just get an update on whether we expect that to change the timeline for introduction as in the business plan? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. We are hopeful that it will not change the introduction timeline, but respectfully, we will leave that to once we have had those discussions with the IGCS and have developed the timeline and workplan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I just get a little bit of an explanation of what is going on with the fire operations suppression budget here, noting that it was $14 million, then $18 million, then $22 million, and now back down to $18 million. Is this just the nature of it's hard to predict how much fire suppression we need or what that $4 million is? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. 2019-2020 was not a bad fire year which is the reason that the numbers are lower in the 2019-2020 actuals. The revised estimates, you'll notice the $22 million, this was due to some additional funding the department was provided with because of COVID issues. We wanted to make sure that we were able to address concerns with how we were going to fight fires and make sure that we were able to protect the people and the property and the environment of the NWT. We were really concerned about having to bring in firefighters from outside the territory, so we put forward a request for funding for multiple initiatives to make sure that we would be able to remain as COVID compliant as possible. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I get an update on whether we are doing any replanting or forest planting? I know this has been a bit of a debate in the NWT, but I also know that there is lots of federal money out there for forestry initiatives. Do we currently have any money in this budget for replanting? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. There has been some work done on the efficacy of planting and natural regeneration has been supported, but there are some areas where we are doing some research work. We have some additional funding from the federal government to look into this. It was pushed back because of COVID because there are challenges with tree planting and COVID, but we are definitely still working towards the outcomes of that, that research work. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North
Thank you, Madam Chair. There has been a lot of talk about biomass and a lot of questions to Infrastructure previously and different departments. As part of that kind of longer-term vision is the idea of communities developing their own, whether it is cord wood or wood chips and kind of these community wood lots, can I just get a sense of whether forest management has any role in that work or money in that budget for that type of work or whether that is a question best left to the biomass people? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think that there are aspects, as the Member has pointed out, that are related to Infrastructure, but I would highlight that our forest management division has a group that is actively working on forest industry development and is in contact with many communities in the NWT and working on projects with them. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a question on page 89, the Water Strategy Action Plan: where are we at with the upstream of this with - oh. Too far ahead? Okay. Let's go to that section. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Okay. Are there any questions from Members under the forest management? Member for Hay River South.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am not sure, but is this the section where I can ask about, I guess it is there, industry development. I see $50,000 there. What is that actually for? Is that for looking at harvesting and different development in that area? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Sorry. My understanding, if it's on industry development -- correct? Yes. It's my understanding we saw some work, various saw mills like in Jean Marie River right now and the pellet centres, and then we received a supplemental appropriation for fire smarting, as well. Thank you. I think I have answered two questions there with one answer.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just look at that $50,000 number there, and I take a look at harvesting in the Northwest Territories. There is not a lot of it. It's mostly out of Hay River with a company there and maybe someone in the smaller communities. Is there any appetite to push industry development a little bit more and throw some more money at that initiative? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. We have been working with many communities on the projects that you have been discussing at kind of the level of the saw mill or that type of thing, but we have also been working with Timberworks and Digga, who are companies under the forest management agreement, to develop relationships with Aurora Wood Pellets in Enterprise. That is a major project we have been working on for many years with Indigenous governments. We are open to those conversations, and we are actively working with communities on these types of projects. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you, and it's community driven. Like I said, Jean Marie, they are looking at doing this, as well, so they have reached out to our staff and are working with them to try to come up with a plan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, the $50,000 there, if you spread it out amongst a few communities, it does not go far, so where does most of that $50,000 go? Is it one specific community, the major portion of it? Is it all subscribed to, as well? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. As you can see here, there is $50,000, but the actuals are $128,000. There is more money that is going towards this industry development than what is in these grants and contribution line items. For this, I don't have the specifics in front of me of what is going to what. There are several small contribution agreements with communities to look at opportunities for saw mills, for example, and there has been in the past many years that we have worked in communities, particularly Fort Resolution and Fort Providence, on a number of funding initiatives to help support the development of businesses under the forest management agreements. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just looking at the industry there, it seems like we have not made a lot of headway. Maybe I am wrong, but I think over the number of years we have been kind of looking at forestry-type businesses that we really have not done a lot. I understand it's community driven, so I am not sure if we can do more or not. Anyways, I just want to go to page 84. Under contract services at $17,779,000, what does that entail, and where does that go? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Sorry. For that detail, I will ask the deputy minister to answer that question.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. Those would be things like aviation and air tanker contracts; firefighters, the negotiated contracts, pre-suppression contracts; and aircraft maintenance contracts. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Member? Are there any other questions under forest management? Seeing none, I will get Members to go to page 84. Environment and Natural Resources, forest management, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $38,498,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Committee, now we will go to water management and monitoring, beginning on page 87, with information on page 90. Member for Nunakput.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in regard to the water strategy action plan, with the up-river sites for checking them for contaminates and what's coming, flowing down the river, how many of those sites do we have open now, and are still half of them shut down due to COVID-19 restrictions? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Thank you, Madam Chair. There were more stations where the monitoring was occurring. Then I believe it was in January or February, there were travel restrictions that were put in place. The Environment Canada staff who do the sampling at those sites near the oil sands are in Saskatchewan, so they were unable to travel to do the sampling. In discussions with the Alberta government, they are continuing to do their long-term monitoring, and they agreed to do key stations; 27th baseline Athabasca is one of them. It's the long-term monitoring station, and they are doing that one, as well. We can make sure that we are maintaining a monitoring record. Then, as soon as the travel restrictions due to COVID have stopped, they will be coming back to do more sites than what they are doing right now. There are some sites that are closer to the NWT that are in Alberta that are being done out of Yellowknife by Environment Canada, so there are four of them. One of them is in the NWT; the others that are being done, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
Thank you, Madam Chair. In regard to the water partnership agreements that we have with research departments in Alberta, all information is shared, correct, in regard to what's in the water? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput
No. Just for myself, it's a big thing because everything flows down the Mackenzie and ends up right in Tuktoyaktuk, so I just want to make sure that any of the sites and our bilateral agreements are making sure that all information is shared and passed along to the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation in regard to information that is coming. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. For that detail of who we share with our Indigenous governments, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The results that we do get, part of the transboundary agreement is setting up what we call an early warning system in the transboundary agreement, which is sampling and the monitoring data for quality and quantity that's in Alberta upstream. What we do is: we have an annual report that we do with Alberta that is published, and that is on the monitoring that happens right at the border. If there are any changes that we see, we look at that early warning system data to see why that change is happening, and we make sure that we explain that in the annual reports. Right now, we are a little bit behind on that reporting because we needed to work together on how we were actually going to develop the reports, but I'm happy to say that we're working right now on two years together in one report so that we'll be up to date on that reporting. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just going to go on the same line as my colleague here in terms of transboundary water items. I know that we have an agreement with Alberta and BC, but if I heard correctly, I don't think we have anything solid in place with Saskatchewan. Can the Minister give us an update if there has been any work done in this area? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. We provided a draft agreement for review to Saskatchewan a couple of years ago, and we just recently had a meeting with them. They had some capacity challenges, and to be honest, on their priority list, it's not the same as our priority list because it's a very small portion of Saskatchewan. They have reviewed it now, and they are at the table with us. We are hopeful that we'll be able to come to an agreement with Saskatchewan in the near future. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Kelly
Oh, my apologies, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. I know I've said this before. The water systems, they don't see borders. With all our water systems, everything is all connected, and I bet you, if we had any major environmental concerns here on our side and something was flowing into another jurisdiction, they would be all over us. I think there needs to be that mutual respect. I think that's really important. I just thought I'd make that as a comment. I'm going to move on to the NWT water strategy. Can the Minister just explain exactly the contributions, how this works, and what exactly this line item is? Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
My understanding is: it's funding for the University of Guelph to initiate groundwater monitoring in the Fort Liard area, but it has been delayed due to COVID. It's for projects like that, but for other details, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. This can be for contributions with communities to work on community projects, or it can be to work on research projects, as the Minister has put forward. It's any sort of contribution agreements that we have or work that we do to implement the Water Stewardship Strategy Action Plan, so there are many, many things that fall under that category. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. That's good to know. This other last item here, this other contribution for the Mackenzie River Basin Board. Can the Minister explain what that is, as well?
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. There is an agreement that was signed in 1997 among all of the jurisdictions that are part of the Mackenzie River Basin and Canada, and that agreement, the way that it's implemented is through meetings of the Mackenzie River Basin Board. The NWT is a member, and we have an Indigenous member who participates on the Mackenzie River Basin Board, as do the other jurisdictions that are in the Mackenzie River Basin. This is a contribution towards this that we make every year so that the board can continue. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
No. That's good to know. I wasn't too sure I understood that because, in the actuals, it didn't exist. Now, that's earmarked for that, so at least I know what that's for. At this time, I don't have any other questions, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. The number for water regulatory and assessment on page 88 is just kind of like in a flat line. I'm just wondering why it hasn't gone up or down. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. That's the amount that is allotted for water regulatory, and we are able to work within that budget. If you can see from the actuals, we actually came in under the budget in 2019-2020, so we've had discussions with the regulatory group and this funding is adequate for the work that the need to do. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I think this is the line item where our water inspectors would go and do inspections, and I just want to know what's happening with the diamond mines right now, whether our inspectors are allowed to go to the site and whether they are able to perform their job. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. That's actually Lands that actually has the responsibility to go into the mines. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. We already have Lands officers who go into the mine and they do the water work at the same time. All of the diamond mines right now, the regulatory work by the water officers are done by Lands officers. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Okay. Am I allowed to ask: are those inspectors actually allowed to go to the site right now? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks. Yes. I know we're into year two of a pandemic, but it's an important time at some of these sites, as well, and the life cycle of some of these mines. The deputy minister knows this way better than I, that, in a couple of months, we're going to be talking about spring freshet. That's a very important time at these sites because water starts moving around and strange things can happen. I don't think our folks were able to go there in May and June of 2020, so I want to make sure that our folks get there this year and are able to do their work. I don't know what else I can say. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just curious to know why there was no 2019-2020 actual for the Mackenzie River Basin Board, and I apologize if that was answered. It's been a long day. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. We've been doing an assessment of things that should be contracts versus contributions, and this is one of them that we have switched to doing as a contract. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. That's good to hear. I like to hear that we're being more efficient, so kudos to the department for that. When the deputy minister commented that the NWT water strategy line item, the $175,000, could be used by a variety of projects and that includes research and community projects, given that there's potential for the university side to dip down as COVID restrictions still continue on, although I know that a lot of those people are probably really dedicated and are willing to maybe come up and spend two weeks in the bush isolating for themselves so they can do their research, I'm just curious to know: is this a potential or an area where we could be actually increasing the funding and then using this money to increase or meet our mandate of increasing employment in small communities since it is a broad fund from the sounds of it? It does sound like it could be a great way to start creating new projects in small communities at this time.
Perhaps maybe not an increase in funding as I see people's faces, but even just repurposing a little bit of this money so that, instead of it being very restrictive, it could be used to sort of, again, keep money flowing into smaller communities, keep people working. It does seem like it's a great area to be moving forward with the water guardians or the guardian program, all of that kind of thing. It's all step in line with that, and increasing our knowledge economy, as well. Just more of a suggestion or comment. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member. I'll take that as a comment. Did the Minister have anything to follow-up?
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
I thank the Member for that, and we will have discussions. Nothing's a never-never, and here's maybe an opportunity to look at it. We will be having those discussions, but further detail, maybe get the deputy minister.
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Kelly
Thank you. These are community monitors and provides funding to guardians already. We have looked at those opportunities. The department has actually looked at some of the work where we would travel into communities. We've hired local residents to work with communities to do that work. Along the lines of what the Member has stated, we've been doing that work, and this line item, in particular, is how we get money out for community monitoring and the guardian programs that we support related to water. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Deputy Minister. No further? Okay. Are there any further questions under the water management monitoring? Member for Hay River South.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to this section, what percentage of these funds go to funding or providing funding to Indigenous groups to participate in development of strategies and action plans. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. It would depend on the year because it depends on what projects that we're doing. We have an Aboriginal steering committee that supports the implementation of the water strategy and has since we started to develop it, so those costs are always covered for the participation of the Aboriginal steering committee. Some years, we have traditional knowledge projects that we're working on, or community work that we're doing. Other years, we have more research, but under the Water Strategy, there is consistent work with communities because many of the action items are to work directly with communities on water issues. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to research and monitoring, what is the extent of monitoring that we do, and is it concentrated in a specific geographical area in the Northwest Territories? I suspect it's up and down the valley and throughout. The water coming into the NWT, we're going to see more contamination there, so I'm just wondering where we're doing most of our monitoring and where most of those dollars are going. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. We do have various sites across there, and we're making sure, as the deputy minister said, if there's early warning systems we have in place and we're able to see if there's contaminants coming down. For detail on where the sites are, I'll go, with your permission, to the deputy minister. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. There's different types of water monitoring that we do across the territory. There's hydrometric monitoring, which is water quantity monitoring. In the Beau-Del region, there's 27 sites; in the Sahtu, 22; in the Dehcho, 17, in the North Slave, 28; and in the South Slave, there's 10. They're distributed across the territory.
Another example is the community-based water quality monitoring that we do. There're five different monitoring -- it's with communities. There're five communities in the Beau-Del region. There're 11 sites that are monitored with the communities in the Sahtu; nine in the Dehcho; seven in the North Slave; and six in the South Slave. There's also meteorological monitoring that's mostly focused in the Beau-Del and the North Slave, and there's snow surveys that are done across the whole territory, as well. There're the trans-boundary water quality sites: one in the Beau-Del on the Peel; the Dehcho on the Liard; and two, one on the Hay and one on the Slave, in the South Slave. Then we have a water quality network with 22 stations in the North Slave and 10 in the South Slave. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to water monitoring, in the land claim agreements, there're specific sections, I think, for that. When we're looking at this, how do we incorporate what's in the agreements with respect to what we're doing in managing and participation from Indigenous groups? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. For that detail, I'll have to turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thanks, Madam Chair. When we were developing the water strategy, there were a number of things that we looked up, and land claim commitments were one of the main foundations for the Water Stewardship Strategy. There were a lot of concerns that were being brought forward about water because it's so important to people in the NWT, and we worked collaboratively with Indigenous governments and other water partners across the NWT to come up with that water strategy. Really, it was the foundation for the mandate for the transboundary agreements, as well. The Aboriginal steering committee is key. They have guided us. They guided the transboundary negotiations. They've guided all of the aspects of development and implementation of the water strategy. We've got the land claims as the foundation, and then we've got Indigenous participation the whole way through development and implementation. I hope that that answers the Member's question. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. The other question I have is with respect to the monitoring and management is: is there any case law out there that's available, any challenges with upstream industries and that, doing work up there? Has there been any challenges from any of the Indigenous groups or the Government of the Northwest Territories to challenge? There's pulp mills or mining companies that may have potential damage for waters coming into the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm not specifically up to speed on case law specifically, but what I can speak to is the fact that we have participated as the government in environmental assessment processes for site-see and some other developments. The transboundary agreement, while it's cooperative in nature, we have a bilateral management committee for that. That management committee includes the assistant deputy minister from the NWT and from Alberta, and it has an Indigenous member, which is Tim Heron from the NWT Metis Nation, who sits on that bilateral management committee. That's where we bring concerns and address any issues that come forward for the transboundary agreement.
There's a whole dispute resolution mechanism that is built into the transboundary agreement, as well, if we can't come to an agreement, but the process there does not preclude us from using a legal method if required. What we are trying to do is collaboratively, through that bilateral management committee, as the first step. Then we take the opportunity to participate in environmental assessments as required, and then we have that dispute resolution mechanism. As I mentioned, we could still use legal recourse, if needed. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Are there any further questions under water management and monitoring? Seeing none, please turn to page 88. Environment and Natural Resources, water management and monitoring, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $9,780,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Committee, we will now go to wildlife and fish, beginning on page 91, with information items up to page 94. Questions? Any questions? No questions? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Let's talk about caribou. The barren-ground caribou surveys were supposed to happen last year. They didn't because of COVID. What's happening this summer? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. How much does it cost, and where is it found in the budget? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The surveys cost around $430,000. They are done every two years. The budget was set up to have that funding there every two years, and now we are off-cycle because of COVID. What we are doing is we are lapsing the $430,000 that we didn't spend on the surveys this year, and then we will be able to use that funding next year. We are going to adjust the cash flow so that that funding is available for every second year from then on. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I appreciate that. I just want to be crystal clear. The money can be carried over from last year to this year to allow for the survey work to be done? You don't have to cut internally, look for unused funds in other parts of ENR, or even within wildlife and fish to do the work? I just want to be really clear about that. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. My understanding is: we are lapsing it this year, and then we are able to pick up the money next fiscal year to do the job that we were going to do this year. Because of COVID, we aren't able to. We do have the money. I wouldn't say we are transferring; we are lapsing it this year and getting the money next fiscal year to do the survey. For any additional detail, I will ask the deputy minister to talk about the finances to it.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The only addition that I will make is that we will need to put forward a supplementary request for next year, but the Department of Finance is aware that we are lapsing the funding this year and that the work needs to be done next year. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I will put in a good word for you guys right now with the Finance Minister that I want them to approve that, and if they don't, they will have to answer to me. I am deadly serious. These herds are in a very, very desperate state. One of the most reliable ways that we have to determine their health is through the calving ground surveys. If the work is not done, we have no idea what's going on with the overall population. I shouldn't say "no idea." Our ability to predict and project is diminished dramatically. I know I am talking to scientists about this, so they get this. We have to have that work done. I expect that all of Cabinet is going to line up behind that. I do want to ask, though, about the wildlife research and management line on page 92. There's a $700,000 drop predicted or projected from what we spent last year. Can someone tell me why that is being reduced? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. $230,000 was the Inuvik Tuktoyaktuk Highway environmental assessment funding. It was sunsetted. $430,000 conservation and recovery of the Bathurst-Bluenose East barren-ground caribou herd. Funding fluctuates according to the calving plans. That's where that money that we had from talking about the survey. Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I appreciate that. I'll just go back and ask one other question. The $430,000 for the barren-ground caribou surveys, does that, then, have to be brought forward through a supplementary? Thank you.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. You already have one vote. I appreciate that. I want to ask about work for caribou habitat protection. Where would I find it in the budget here? I see that there is a habitat and environmental assessment line. Is that where I would find money, how much, and what is actually being done to protect, I'll just pick on one herd, the Bathurst caribou herd?
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. My understanding is that the money for the habitat protection comes under the line item for habitat and environmental assessment. I don't have the exact number with me that we are using on that, but it's related to the pilot project that we have provided information on previously. I don't have the exact number at this time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair, and thanks to the Minister for that. I had understood that there were some meetings that were to take place in the fall, or maybe it was in January, with the Tlicho and some other Indigenous governments and communities to start to identify specific areas for habitat protection, critical habitat. Look, there is nothing else we can do on the harvest side, quite frankly. I do appreciate the work of the Minister and what he did in the media today, so maybe we can do some more enforcement stuff there. There's not much we can do with the harvesters to deal with that anymore. We have tried the predator stuff. That seems to have worked a little bit. The one area where we haven't done anything and is still outstanding, even in the range plan, is habitat protection. I had understood there were going to be some meetings. What is the status of that work, and have we actually started to identify areas that need to be protected, even permanently, for the Bathurst caribou herd? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. We have begun work on all eight recommendations in the Bathurst caribou range plan. There has been a draft framework for the implementation of mobile caribou conservation measures. That was completed in March 2020, and we are currently working with Aurora Geosciences to develop detailed operational guidance based on a pilot program, which piloted mobile caribou conservation measures in the summer and fall of 2020. We have also, as the Member stated, met with the Tlicho government and identified caribou habitat as a value at risk under our wildlife management system and also identified key boreal and barren-ground caribou habitat. It's my understanding that we are now having meetings with other Indigenous governments to get their input, as well, to include with the Tlicho input, and my understanding is that those meetings are ongoing at this time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes. I will probably have some more questions on this habitat protection, maybe later this week. However, I did want to ask about the status of transboundary work with the Government of Nunavut. The Minister did invite me to a meeting not that long ago. I guess it was about a year ago. The Nunavut Premier was there. He is interested. There were some music groups there. Where are we at with a transboundary caribou agreement? I know the Premier of Nunavut has been diverted with some other stuff, even in his hometown, but where are we at with a transboundary caribou agreement for the Bathurst herd and maybe some of the other herds? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. I will start and then turn it to the deputy minister. We have been trying to follow up on the meeting we had from last year, that the Member was invited to, a couple of Members from the House were invited to, which was really good. We had Indigenous governments. We had the Nunavut government. The Premier is the Minister of environment from Nunavut; not only is he the Premier, but he has taken that portfolio. Unfortunately, the situation has not arrived that we were able to have further conversations. As the Member talked about, he has been pretty busy in dealing with some of the challenges that are there. We are still trying to work with him. We have reached out a number of times, and we are trying to fit it into our schedule to have those conversations. However, the work for the staff, I will turn to the deputy minister.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't think that, per se, we were looking at a transboundary agreement in the sense of an agreement. We have range plans and management plans that we have collaboratively developed with Nunavut. They are a partner that we work with regularly on the implementation of those plans, like with some of the other provincial governments, as well, when the herds go across boundaries. We recognize and work very closely at the department level with the department of environment in Nunavut, and certainly, they have been involved in these multi-year processes with Indigenous governments to develop range plans and management plans for the herds. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. My colleague from Frame Lake covered a lot of the questions I was going to ask, but that is fine. There are a few questions I want to ask anyways. I am just looking at some sunsets here, the alternative harvest and the monitoring and range planning. Can the Minister explain a little bit about that, why these two line items are being sunsetted? Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The alternative harvest funding was a one-time pilot funding project to assist harvesters in exploring alternative food sources other than caribou. Although there was no budget allocated ongoing, we have this year provided funding because of the mobile zone being as large as it is and the difficulty accessing caribou, so several Indigenous governments have received alternative harvest funding this year. Could I ask for clarity on what the other item was that the Member was asking about, please?
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. This was also one-time funding, and it was to support Indigenous governments' and organizations' involvement in Boreal caribou management and range planning, so that work was scheduled to be completed in that year. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Madam Chair, I am just concerned. We were just mentioning that caribou management, it's just important work, and I just do not want to see anything being taken away from that. I think that we need to make sure that we protect all our wildlife. I don't know. It just seems like this one-time contribution, I think this should be something that should be continuing on. That is how I feel about it. I am sure a few of my colleagues do, as well. I am going to move along here. That was just a comment. The wildlife management board, I saw it someplace else here. Maybe I am going off a little bit here. Can the Minister just explain what this is, this line item here for $118,000?
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. This line item is for contributions to support the wildlife management boards across the NWT. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you. The other item here, too, there is a decrease, as well, not so much a sunset, for the stewardship program. Can the Minister explain why there is a decrease there, as well?
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. That there is due to internal alignment due to historical actuals. Thank you.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. Sorry. I did not catch it. I heard a sneeze. Was that "historical actions"?
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
I am just wondering about historical actual. Okay. Good. Can the Minister just elaborate what is meant by that? Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Historical actuals are actually what it has cost us to do this program area, so we go to the actual here. We realize this is where the numbers are for us to be able to do it, so this is our actual cost to run the program. Thank you.
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Steve Norn Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, fair enough. I just was not too sure there. I don't have any other questions except to say, yes, to just continue to do the best we can with what we have got to support our caribou. Since time immemorial, our people lived off caribou, and I just hope that we can see future generations continue to harvest and hunt this animal. I am hoping that we keep these herds strong. Thank you.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Yes. Thank you. I totally agree with the Member. As the Member is aware, we met with the YK Dene, the elders and chief, their committee there, to talk about it. We are also going in, I believe it's the 26th. The 24th is Fort Smith. The 26th, we are going into Lutselk'e to meet with chief and council and the elders, too, to talk about the caribou situation, as well, so we are looking and listening to our communities and affected governments and IGCs or IGOs, depending on who you talk to. Yes, so we are listening, and we are trying to make sure we give caribou a better place. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Minister. Are there any other questions under wildlife and fish? Member for Hay River South.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. It's called wildlife and fish, and I haven't heard anything about fish yet. Being from Hay River, I can't go back there if I don't ask questions. I would like to know what percentage of this budget item here goes to the area of fish management, I guess is what I'm asking.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
Thank you. I'm going to go to the deputy minister for that detail. Thank you.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. This used to be the Wildlife Division, and it was changed to the Wildlife and Fish Division because we have begun discussions with the federal government to look at taking on some responsibilities related to fish. What I will say here is that there are limited amounts in this particular budget other than for some of the enforcement aspects that happen at the regional level, that we have an agreement with the federal government already on, but fish are covered off under the Cumulative Impacts Monitoring Program. There is much work that is done on fish because it's one of the valued ecosystem components: water, fish, and caribou.
Also, there is fish work that has been done related to the Human Health Risk Assessment for Giant, and there is fish work that has been done as part of the Water Stewardship Strategy implementation because you don't generally talk to people about water and not talk about fish. We've done some fish research projects, but for wildlife and fish specifically, the funding is related directly to that enforcement role that I mentioned. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. If we are in discussions with the federal government, is there a timeline where we would take more responsibility? Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. It's early stages of that work. I think that this decision was before my time working with this section, but I believe what we were doing was setting ourselves up to be like other jurisdictions. Most jurisdictions have a wildlife and fish section, or fish and wildlife, as many of you have heard. The intent here is to be ready for those discussions, but they are at an early stage. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Rocky Simpson Hay River South
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm not sure what else to ask, then, if we don't really have a hell of a lot of responsibility. That will be it. Thank you.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Are there any further questions under fish and wildlife? Seeing none, please go to page 92. Environment and Natural Resources, wildlife and fish, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $16,156,000. Does committee agree?
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Some Hon. Members
Agreed.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. There are additional information items on pages 95 to 103. Do Members have any questions on any of those? Member for Great Slave.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm looking at the work performed on behalf of others, starting on page 101, and obviously that would vary over the years dependent on what, say, the federal government needs for us to do, et cetera, et cetera. When you look at it, for the year coming up, it's estimated to be around $7.6 million. Could the Minister speak a little bit to this is $7.6 million that wouldn't necessarily be in the economy of the Northwest Territories? I guess this could be an ITI question, but could the Minister speak to how we can leverage more money under work performed on behalf of others, as it seems like it might be a way to at least keep money flowing through our economy, using it to keep people employed? If we can fund projects under this or pay for things under this, why would we not try to increase this amount? Or maybe I'm completely out to lunch because it's almost eight o'clock on a really long day. Thanks.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
I'll start, and then I'll turn to the deputy minister. These here are projects that, as it says, we are performing on behalf of others. These are things that we work with the federal government or the organization on to get done. To advance it would be a bit of a challenge right now because of our commitments, but I think I got that look, so I'm going to turn to the deputy minister who can clarify that part. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think that this is one element where the department is always looking for opportunities to work with others and to work that meets our mandate requirements, and the work that we need done as a territory. I definitely think that this list has been longer in other years, but that's likely the result of not finding as much alignment as we have in other years. I can definitely say that our department does a good job of looking for money from other groups to help support the work that we do in the NWT. There is always room for improvement, and we are definitely engaging at the department in discussions along those lines. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. I should also say that this is also a department that does lots of science and facts and things, as I said when I had other departments in front of me, so I like what I hear the deputy minister saying. I do understand what the Minister says about capacity at this time and such, but yes, I'm a firm believer that, the more we can get people from the South to pay for us and things that we need, why wouldn't we? More of a comment. I'm done. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you, Member. I'll take that as a comment. Any further questions under the information items? Member for Frame Lake.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I think I ask this almost every budget: the Inuvialuit Water Board. This is, I know, some kind of artefact of devolution. They do good work; they've got good staff. Why are they kind of on our payroll? I know we get money from the federal government for this, but these folks should be independent of GNWT, like the other land and water boards. I just don't understand why this is here. They should be getting their own money outside of the budget. This is just kind of like the Hay River Health and Social Services Authority. It's another one of these instances where this was a federally funded institution of public government, and now it's for GNWT. What are we doing to make this board really independent and allow them to hire their own staff, look after their own budget, do all their own stuff, instead of us doing it? Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
I can honestly say that I've been beside the Member for four years on the other side, and he has asked this question here. We've talked. We've looked at this, trying to find options there. The biggest challenge right now is our benefit package. When we were talking with the staff and that, that's the challenge. They don't want to lose the benefits, which will then have an impact on finding people to hire and that. We've had conversations with the chair. We've looked at it. They have a new chair. My understanding is that we're working with them on it. We would love to be able to do it, but at the same time, we don't want to cause undue stress to the staff who work there. For further clarity on some of the stuff that's being done on a day-to-day basis, or week-to-week or month-to-month, I will turn to the deputy minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kelly
Thank you, Madam Chair. The IWB doesn't report to the waters group. It reports to the director of finance to make sure that they are as independent as possible. We have committed to the previous chair, and that commitment stands with the chair now, that we will deal with this through the process to amend the Waters Act, because it is going to require an amendment. We will review and discuss the transition of staff to the IWB through attrition and the option of establishing a reporting structure. They have asked us to look at multiple options, and we have said that we will discuss it when we are doing the Waters Act amendments because that's where we would need to make chose changes. There are concerns from a labour relations perspective, and we want to make sure that we are doing it through that process and will be engaging with all those that we need to discuss this item with. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake
Thanks, Madam Chair. I appreciate the level of detail that has been provided by the deputy minister. I am just worried that this may not happen in my lifetime. Look, I want to get these guys as independent as they possibly can, away from GNWT. I think that's a shared objective, but I really hope that we can make some progress before I pass away. Thanks, Madam Chair.
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Shane Thompson Nahendeh
I hope he doesn't pass away for a long, long time. I like the guy. I appreciate his tenacity when it comes to working for the people. Hopefully, we can get it done sooner than later. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair Lesa Semmler
Thank you. Any further questions under that information item? Seeing none, I will get Members to please return now to the departmental summary found on page 69. Environment and Natural Resources, operations expenditures, total department, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $97,874,000. Does committee agree? Mr. Norn.