Merci, Monsieur le President. Committee would like to consider Tabled Document 567-19(2) and Minister's Statement 202-19(2). Mahsi.

Does committee agree?

I will call the committee back to order. Committee, we have agreed to consider Minister's Statement 202-19(2) and Tabled Document 567-19(2): Annual Status Report - 2019-2023 Mandate of the Government of the Northwest Territories. Does the Premier wish to bring witnesses into the House?

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witness into the Chamber.

Would the Minister please introduce -- or the Premier please introduce her witness.

Mr. Chair, with me I have Mr. Martin Goldney, the deputy minister of Executive and Indigenous Affairs and the secretary to Cabinet. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Premier. Committee, yesterday we finished -- or we were on pages 23 and 24, settle and implement treaty, land resources, self-government agreement. And are there any questions? Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. On page 23, it's one of the progress milestones is two agreements concluded. And I guess I just want to get some assurance from the Premier that these two agreements are not just these trans-boundary agreements; we're talking hopefully something more substantive like either Akaitcho or Deh Cho or the Metis Nation; is that what this refers to? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly, if -- just take a moment here; I've just got to figure out this clock. You've got 62 minutes.

---Laughter

Thank you. Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We want -- we would like to make all of the agreements concluded but that's not a reality. So you know, we're hopeful that the southeast and southwest ones will be concluded. We're also hoping that the Nyak Dun one will be concluded. We -- we've got a tentative agreement-in-principle with the Akaitcho but they've got to go to their membership. And, you know, thought we were close with the Gwich'in and then they joined back. What I'm trying to say is that things happen and, you know, there's changes in leadership; there's changes in negotiations. There was questions today about the NWT Metis Nation and the statement that we've had two agreement-in-principles with them. So sometimes you make agreement-in-principles and then they change their mind and they come back. So our commitment -- the last Assembly said they were going to settle them all. That wasn't realistic. They didn't get any done. This Assembly, we're going to try to settle two. What two they will be, I'm hoping that we'll have more, but I can't say that for a hundred percent certain that any of them will be done because it all depends on what happens at the tables, and things change all the time.

We're hoping that when we release our -- when we look at the core principles objectives, the intents around the interests around negotiations, that that will open it up a little bit more. But like I said, on our side we're doing our best we can. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Premier. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'll try that one more time. So the two agreements concluded as the milestone, is that beyond the two draft trans-boundary agreements? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. When we began this Assembly, we did not sit down and say these are the two agreements that should be concluded. We said instead of trying to do all agreements, we will shoot to make sure that two agreements are finalized. So which ones they will be were not defined at the beginning. And so we're hoping for more. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'll just leave it as a comment that I hope that this is more than just two trans-boundary agreements and if the -- if Cabinet needs more money to get this work done, I urge them to go to FMB. The Regular MLAs, I'm sure, would be very supportive of this. We have to deliver on this. And I don't know how else I can say that. Thanks, Mr. Chair. That's all I've got.

Thank you. Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is not an issue of money. I've never heard from any of the negotiators or any of the tables that it's more money. It's a matter of everyone being willing to sit and negotiate. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Are there any further questions on settle and implement treaty, land resource, and self-government agreements?

Seeing none, Committee, we will move to page 25, implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. Questions. Mr. Johnson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I see here that the NWT Council of Leaders has a working group, and we're working on legislation to implement UNDRIP. I guess the big question there is do we expect -- does the Premier expect to introduce UNDRIP implementation legislation in the life of this Assembly? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That is my hope, that we have it (audio) Assembly however we're getting some flack on that as well at the working group. It's a matter of -- and we may have to -- we're looking at maybe the possibility of bringing in a facilitator to help.

They don't understand the process of the Legislative Assembly. There -- a lot of the members that are part of the working group believe that they can just say this is what we want and it's a done deal. We experience that at the last Assembly when we did the land and water as well. So we're still going through that. But we're committed to getting it done, and we'll use whatever methods we can other than -- it has to be by the lead of the Indigenous governments. So if we need a facilitator to help to explain the process, then we will do that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Johnson.

Yeah, thank you, Mr. Chair. Also I see here that, you know, some of the work is to identify changes for GNWT policies, and then there's a how we'll demonstrate progress as reporting on program changes provided.

I have yet to see any of that work, or I've yet to see, you know, us change a policy or, you know, change some sort of internal operations of the GNWT and say this is due to UNDRIP. Can I just get the Premier to speak to whether, you know, the federal and BC legislation kind of mandate a work plan that demands departments and agencies to review all internal policies and then make changes? Is it -- you know, is that our plan, and when will we see some reporting on programs and policies as a result of implementing UNDRIP? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know that we are working on the housing policies but for cross-jurisdictional information, I'd like to turn it to the deputy minister. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Deputy minister.

Thank you. Questions? Committee, we're just waiting for the Members that are virtual to get tabled documents. It'll just be a minute. Relax.

Members, are there any further questions on implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People?

Seeing none, Committee, we will move to page 26, increase regional decision-making authority. Questions? Are there any questions -- oh sorry, Ms. Nokleby.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm just looking at the implementation plans announced for the training programs there, and they're both saying that they're fulfilled and that we're going to be delivering at the beginning of early of 2022. Can the Premier speak to whether or not that those training programs have started? Thank you.

Thank you. Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know that they're started. I'm not sure if they're completed, though. For that, I'll turn it to the deputy minister to expand on that. I know that we're also doing more work to -- because the job descriptions where similar training is happening, and then we're still looking for -- to identify from staff on what they see as issues. So the work is still ongoing. But as for if it's all completed, I'd like to turn it to the deputy minister.

Deputy minister.

Thank you. Member.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for that answer. I guess my next question is just around is there no commitment here for the moving of jobs into the regional areas in order to increase that decision-making authority? I'm just wondering if I'm getting two mandates mixed up -- or two priorities mixed up. Thank you.

Thank you. Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. No, this mandate didn't address moving positions. However, in saying that, I think Members are aware that the Minister of HR/Finance did release that people that are working at headquarters in Yellowknife, if their jobs allow they will be allowed to move into smaller communities outside of Yellowknife to be able to do their work if their job allows that to happen. And it's a one-way street. It does not -- people from the smaller communities that were -- communities outside of Yellowknife are not allowed to move in to Yellowknife to do their job. But I think that's a progressive move in -- in trying to attract people to outside of the Yellowknife as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Are there any further questions on increased regional decision-making authority?

Seeing none, Committee, we will move to page 27, reduce the municipal funding gap. Questions? Mr. Johnson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. One of the goals here is to refine the funding model to ensure continued fairness and transparency. And I know this work is, you know, actually on track, and I'm happy to hear that but I find it a little ridiculous that we're going to ensure transparency when the department refuses to publish how much we actually give specific communities. So there's no way for anyone to know whether their community is overfunded or underfunded. And I know the Minister of MACA has refused to answer that question. So my question is once we are done and we have a new funding formula, will we publish specific community breakdowns going forward? Thank you.

Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to defer that to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs.

Mr. Thompson.

Thank you. We will look at it. And we will not make a promise but we will look at it. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Johnson.

Yeah, thank you, Mr. Chair. And I think the other big fight with this one is that it -- there's -- they're reducing the gap by $5 million was initially interpreted to be reducing $5 million considering the way the formula works in total, so adjusting for inflation or, you know, the increased costs as the formula takes. It seems now Cabinet has switched to not be that target.

My question is, can we get an update on what the actual amount the funding gap will be reduced by. You know, adding $5 million to it if it -- if inflation went up by $5 million will actually be zero dollars. So we don't seem to be publishing by community and we don't seem to be publishing the actual closing of the gap. So can I get a commitment that we will publish what the gap will actually be closed by adding $5 million? Thank you.

Premier.

Thank you. Mr. Chair, I think that that will have to be something that we'll have to work with the -- couple of departments on. I don't think it's as easy as just making a commitment right here. It's really hard to tell. The commitment is to be able to address the -- reduce the municipal funding gap by $5 million. That was a decision made in the House. However, the Member's right. I mean, inflation hits, cost of living and, you know, things change all the time with communities so we won't know if -- if it's really affected that or not. We don't even know if that -- if the amount that was originally said was the gap is the real gap because as soon as you do that research, it's outdated. So what I can commit to is that we'll have that discussion at Cabinet and -- or in Finance I guess, and we'll get back to Members on that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Ms. Nokleby.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm just looking at the line item where it says that MACA is going to provide new opportunities for the own source revenue through the transfer of lands to community governments. It's the last one on page 27. I'm just curious to know if we have a measurable amount of actual land transfer. Has this actually happened? Is this just talking about it at this stage?

I note that in the next part of this, it's talking about the tool being developed by the -- by April of 2023, which makes me concerned we wouldn't be transferring lands until that time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Premier.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to defer that to the Minister of Lands, please, Mr. Thompson.

Mr. Thompson.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so we've developed the tool. It has gone to the City of Yellowknife. They have it, approved it, and adapted it. We're working with them. When we talk to them about doing transfers of land, it's very specific to certain areas and certain things. So it's not one big bulk transfer. We were doing it -- working with them to do it -- I don't want to call it piecemeal but to do it as they feel comfortable taking on different tasks and what they need their land for.

We've also taken that very tool and given it to NWTAC and which will allow them to get feedback to their membership -- from their membership moving forward. We do have a number of projects on the go that we are looking at doing that from this -- bigger centres as of Yellowknife as -- into the small ones as of Enterprise. Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Nokleby.

Thank you for that. Would it be fair for the Minister to characterize that the communities or municipalities are happy with this approach, or would they rather have seen a bulk transfer of land? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Thompson.

They're happy with it. We are actually working with them. We're working at their speed, their capabilities, and what they want to do and what they are trying to achieve. Again, it's -- you know, if you give them a bulk land, just a whole chunk of it, then you're really not expecting them to do a lot of work to certain areas. So like in the city of Yellowknife, we are looking at very specific areas that the community -- the city uses and they're looking at taking over. And then as we move on, then bulk land transfers will be moved to their -- at their speed. So we are relying on theirs. Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Nokleby.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. And just for the part of the rollout, then, for the rest of the territory after the city of Yellowknife, is there a plan to look at that individually by community versus having them all be sort of under the same umbrella or all at the same time; will it proceed based on community capacity? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Ms. Nokleby.

No, I think I'm good. I just want to always throw in the faster we can get land I think into the communities' hands, the better. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any further questions on reduce the municipal funding gap? Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yeah, the first item on page 27 is reduce the funding gap by $5 million. Do we actually have a formula to calculate what the funding gap is at any point in time? Is it transparent? Is it reported annually? Sorry, there's two or three questions there but I'd like to find out more about how this is actually calculated. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Premier.

Martin? Thank you, Mr. Chair, I'd like to transfer it to the secretary to Cabinet.

Secretary to Cabinet.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. That's great to hear that the deputy minister for the Executive doesn't have the answer but can I get a commitment, then, from someone who -- a Minister, to actually provide that information to me in a public fashion? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Premier.

I will either make a commitment to either provide it to the Member in a public fashion or to provide an explanation of why we can't give that to the Member either with a why we can't give it period; why we can't give it in a public manner. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for that commitment, Premier. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. And look, no disrespect to the deputy minister; I know he's very hard working, I just need to get a political commitment from my colleagues across the aisle.

So I'm a bit surprised to hear that nobody really knows if we actually have a formula for calculating this on an annual basis and that it's not reported annually. So my suggestion, recommendation, is that whatever the formula is, that it should be transparent and that it should be recalculated on an annual basis. And I imagine that this is something -- like, it was done in 2014 with the Northwest Territories Association of Communities. There was a 2019 sort of update or reassessment but I think it still used figures from 2014. So I don't think we've actually got a transparent way and an annual reporting of what that gap is. And I think that's part of the problem with having a vague target like this of $5 million. Well, $5 million when and where and so on. So that's all a recommendation that we need to have a formula. It needs to be transparent, and it needs to be reported on annually so at any point in time if federal dollars fall from heaven or some other funding comes free, then we know what the gap is and how we can start to better close that. Thanks, Mr. Chair. Those are comments, and if the Premier cares to respond that will be great. Thank you.

Premier.

Mr. Chair, well I do know that Municipal and Community Affairs does keep track of the capital amounts that they get from the federal government. The difficulty with having a formula, Mr. Chair, is that the -- years back, and I can't remember what year it was, but the GNWT did a good decision in my opinion, was they signed what was called the new deal, which meant that city -- municipalities were allowed to define their own, what they wanted to do instead of the GNWT telling them what to do. But when the -- the bad point -- there's always good and bad with everything and what happened that -- with that that wasn't so good is that instead of saying you have a community of 500 people so within that community, like it was before, you can have an arena of this size or a gym of this size like we do for some things, we allowed the communities to do what they wanted. Some communities made great big recreation centres that all of a sudden put it out of -- out of whack. You know, 500 people and you got a rec centre that meets the needs of an Olympic team. That's the reality of what happened. So how do you make a formula that addresses that? The only way we could address that, in my opinion -- and that's because I used to be the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs. The only way we could address that, in my opinion, would be to do the research every single year which is not financially feasible to do either, and a bit disrespectful. So I don't think that we're going to be able to come up with a set formula, Mr. Chair, because of the -- because of the new deal and allowing municipalities to do what they want with their money. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Just very quickly, it was done in 2014. There's no reason why it can't be done again. And as I understand it, it has to do with an asset base that changes in value over time and I don't think it's rocket science to recalculate that. It was done once -- or even calculate it once or twice, or do it on some sort of regular cycle. But to just keep reverting back to 2014, that's not good enough. Thanks, Mr. Chair. And I'll just leave it at that. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any further questions on reduce the municipal funding gap? Oh sorry, Mr. Thompson.

Thank you. I just want to make sure committee is aware -- or the committee here is aware that we are reviewing it this year. We are working the NWTAC on this exact issue right now. So we are reviewing it.

Also I want to advise committee that I'm -- I have had a conversation with the president of NWTAC. We are looking at a tri-territorial meeting with the three ministers and the three NWTACs, their equivalents in the Yukon and Nunavut. We are trying to work on scheduling that meeting and going to the federal government as a tri-party approach to it. As well as they will be reaching out to the Premiers' offices to try to meet it at that level as well. But they -- they're just talking about that right now. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any further questions on reduce the municipal funding gap?

Seeing none, Committee, we'll move to pages 28, 29, strengthen the government's leadership and authority on climate change. Questions?? Ms. Nokleby.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. One of the items here is to work with the national and international organizations to advocate for the consideration of our unique perspectives on climate change impacts, adaptation, and mitigation.

I'm concerned when I look at the strategies on the government's website that a lot of talk there is about adaptation but there's not a lot there around the mitigation part of this work, and I'm worried that, again, we're being reactive instead of proactive. And I understand now, from my time with the Minister of ENR at COP, around, you know, the difficulties -- and from the time in the House here, the difficulties around us mitigating greenhouse gas emissions in the territory. However, maybe can the Premier speak a little bit to whether or not that work is being done, if we are heavily -- I mean maybe just some thoughts what she thinks about the mitigation versus adaptation and then perhaps I'm guessing I'm going to be hearing from the Minister instead. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Premier.

Chair, that'll go to the Minister of ENR, Minister Thompson.

Minister Thompson.

Yeah, so the mitigation there is very much the federal government's being the lead working with them, and I say when the lead, they've given us a lot of the money that we are dealing with it.

What our biggest challenge is right now is the adaptation. They don't -- like, they haven't even developed an adaptation national strategy on it. So we're trying to work with them. So we've been able to access money, whether it's from various departments that help with the mediation of this very difficult issue that's impacting us for numerous years. So, yeah, we are -- there is money there. We're working with them on it. But it's the adaptation that we see that is our shortfall right now. And because the federal government has not developed a national strategy on it yet, they are just in the process of it so we've been working with our federal counterparts and our provincial counterparts on that. So hopefully that answers what she's looking for. Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Nokleby.

I think that just kind of emphasized what I was saying, is that the focus seems to be on adaptation and nothing around the mitigation part, and I guess where I'm going with this is I'm always -- this comes back to the conversation about putting the money upfront in order to do things right to begin with so that we're not then playing catch up later on. That's exactly what mitigation is. You know, I had mentioned around the flooding last year that I had been hearing for years about erosion of the banks of the river in Fort Simpson. The Minister's well aware himself. And so therefore, you know, nothing was really being done or discussed to prevent that occurrence from happening. I never saw rip rap, things like that. There wasn't talks about protective measures within the Mackenzie. And I'm not saying that maybe those aren't feasible but this is where I get worried that we're not being proactive and we're not looking at mitigation and building that into our process now so it's not something that we have to come back to later. I think a good place for this to sit and needs to be maybe better emphasized is within the Department of Infrastructure with our new builds and our new plans around that, our building maintenance, all of that. And I guess I'd just like to hear a commitment maybe from the Premier and the Ministers that there is going to be a greater look and they will personally look into what's being done under mitigation and emphasizing that more within the departments. I think it is a piece that's missing. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to turn that to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Minister Thompson.

Minister. Thompson.

Okay, yeah, so the thing is is that we are dealing with specific situations. We are looking -- like IE the Tuk situation, we are looking at how it's impacted. We're working with the municipal governments to see if there's funding through mitigation. The federal government has a lot of money in mitigation. They do have a lot of money. What I'm saying is sometimes it doesn't fit into our scope of things. We have been at the table. We've been asking them. We work with Infrastructure on these things. Again, we are the lead on this but we work with our departments. We meet at the national table. We meet at -- the federal minister when myself and you were in COP, I had the opportunity to meet with the Minister from Ontario, and we were actually talking about mitigation and how it -- how the funding works and how it -- and, again, it was about -- our argument is about per capita does not work for us. We -- our situation, we only have 40,000 people but our situations are more unique. And so it was again educating and trying to work with them as well as working with our federal counterparts when I had the opportunity to meet with the climate change ambassador, we talked about that as well. So, yeah, we are working on it. I'm more than willing to work with my colleagues on it. To make a long -- sorry. My longwinded answer, yes, I'll -- we're working on it. Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Nokleby.

Thank you for that. I guess I'm going to try this from a different approach.

So we all know that if we can reduce our fuel consumption, we're going to save us money. So I think where I'm looking to see a commitment is to build out the capacity within the Government of the Northwest Territories to do mitigation because as I listen to the Minister speak, what I'm hearing is we're focused elsewhere, we are other things that we are having to prioritize because of need, and that a lot of that is being directed by the federal government. And as well too, it's very hard for us to drop our fuel consumption given our specific needs. However, again being proactive, if we could build capacity in the mitigation part and start -- like we do for many other -- like, areas that span all departments and having those people strategically within departments, we will save ourselves money in the long run and we will save ourselves grief in the long run, and perhaps then we become a forerunner and the federal government wants to give us more money as a result of doing well. So that's where I'm looking is just to -- a commitment to look into increasing the capacity within the GNWT for the mitigation piece. Thank you.

Thank you. Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think what I'm hearing the Member saying is that it's bigger than just the Municipal and Community Affairs. It's like an all-of-government issue. I always like to get federal money. So what I can commit to is that I will -- I will bring it to a committee of Cabinet, I think the Member knows that, and so that we can have a more fulsome discussion as Cabinet to look at what we can do. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for that commitment, Premier. Ms. Nokleby.

I'm just going to run with that commitment. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Questions? Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. So on February the 9th, 2021, it's over a year ago, the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources announced that the terms of reference for the NWT Climate Change Council were finished. Council seems to have met a few times but I don't even know who sits on the council. There's no web page. There's no -- nothing in terms of products, communications. Is there actually a climate change council in place? And who sits on it? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Premier.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's for the Minister of ENR, Minister Thompson.

Minister Thompson.

Yes, the committee, they're -- the council sits and it's Indigenous leadership. It is a committee of theirs, and we work with that committee. It is not a sub part of, you know, government. It is a climate change council that we work with. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the Minister for that. Could there not be a web page or some information about the council made available? Like, who sits on it, even maybe the terms of reference somewhere. Is there a work plan? Are there technical committees or advisory committees that have been set up? There's just total absence of any information whatsoever about this body that's supposed to be leading some kind of climate change initiatives. So can the Minister make a commitment to get that work done? Because nobody knows what's happening. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister Thompson.

Thank you. We will reach out to committee and try to get this information there. We're not going to do the work. They -- it's been done. We are working with them. I need to really stress we are working with the climate change council. They are not a subdivision or a thing of our government. When I say that, they are an entity on themselves. We are working with them. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yeah, just I wasn't clear on what the Minister's proposing. Is he can tell me privately what's going on which is -- you know, maybe I can get more information out of him by wandering down the hall but there's nothing to the public, and I guess that's my concern and issue is what -- you know, can the Minister work with the council somehow so that people even know who sits on this, what they're doing. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister Thompson.

That I can do. Thank you.

Thank you for that commitment. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and I'll be asking the Minister about this in May/June. So head's up. I expect to see something done publicly on this before May/June. And especially if it's reported in this mandate thing as -- progress report as something being done.

I want to move on though. Today the federal government announced a new climate change target of 40 percent reduction from 2005 emissions by 2030. That's an additional 10 percent from even what the pan-Canadian framework says.

So what is happening in terms of our own failed Climate Change Strategic Framework and Energy Strategy that is based on a -- you know, the pan-Canadian framework, which our national government has now moved beyond? Is this new 40 percent target going to be incorporated into our work? Thanks, Mr. Chair.