Committee Motion 371-19(2): Tabled Document 813-19(2): 2023-2024 Main Estimates - Legislative Assembly - Deferral of Department (Page 5), Carried

In the Legislative Assembly on March 7th, 2023. See this topic in context.

Committee Motion 371-19(2): Tabled Document 813-19(2): 2023-2024 Main Estimates - Legislative Assembly - Deferral of Department (Page 5), Carried
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 7th

Page 5709

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Merci, Madam la Presidente. I move that this committee defer further consideration of the estimates for the Legislative Assembly at this time. Mahsi, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5709

The Chair Lesa Semmler

The motion is in order. To the motion?

March 7th

Page 5709

Some Hon. Members

Question.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Consideration of Legislative Assembly 2023-2024 Main Estimates, operating expenditure, total department, is deferred.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you to the witnesses for appearing before us. Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witnesses from the Chamber.

Committee, we've agreed to consider Tabled Document 813-19(2), 2023-2024 Main Estimates. We will now consider the Department of Environment and Climate Change. Does the Minister of Environment and Climate Change have any opening remarks?

March 7th

Page 5709

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes, I do, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Go ahead.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am here to present the 2023-2024 Main Estimates for the Department of Environment and Climate Change. Overall, the department's estimates propose an increase of $2.671 million or 2.2 percent over the 2022-2023 Main Estimates. These estimates support the mandate objectives for the Department of Environment and Climate Change while continuing to meet the GNWT's fiscal objectives to prioritize responsible and strategic spending.

Highlights from the proposed estimates include:

An increase of $1.7 million for barren-ground caribou research and monitoring offset by a sunset of $560,000 for previous increased funding for some Bathurst and Bluenose-East monitoring activities, for a total of $1.14 million in additional funding;
Additional sunsets of $3.598 million which includes $960,000 related to the Section 11 Conservation Agreement for Boreal Caribou, $2.259 million for the Nature Fund Protected Areas Agreement, $219,000 for the Approach to Unauthorized and Rights-Based Occupancy, $110,000 for Sustainable Livelihoods, and $50,000 for Flood Impacts. The department has a commitment for a bridge-funding agreement with the federal government for Section 11 and Nature Fund activities to offset most of these sunset amounts;
Forced growth funding of $1.091 million for forest management personnel, that includes fire crew extensions and two new fire crews given longer wildfire seasons;
An increase of $3.535 million due to a change in accounting treatment to move funds from the work on behalf of third parties fund to the operations and maintenance fund for the Alberta/Northwest Territories Bilateral Water Management Agreement, the Mutual Aid Resources Sharing Agreement and the Barren-Ground Research, Monitoring and Management Agreement; and,
A $219,000 reduction in funding for contract services.

These estimates continue to support the priorities of the 19th Legislative Assembly and vision of budget 2023 by:

Continuing work on the 2019-2023 NWT Climate Change Action Plan, and ensuring climate change factors are integrated into government decision-making;
Supporting initiatives that promote economic diversification and jobs in communities by supporting jobs related to protected areas, a sustainable forest industry, expanding waste diversion programs, and support for the traditional economy including the Genuine Mackenzie Valley Fur Program;
Contributing to the GNWT-wide efforts to implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and support regional based decision-making through participation in the NWT's long standing co-management systems for land, water, wildlife and forests, and ECC's support for sustainable livelihoods;
Supporting the GNWT's work to improve food security through country food, land-based programming, effective management of harvested species, their habitat, and assisting with agricultural land uses;
Modernizing land management, including how we serve our land administration clients, supporting sustainable economic development and taking leadership on climate action;
Supporting efforts to reduce the municipal funding gap through the transfer of land to communities.

That concludes my opening remarks, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5709

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Do you wish to bring witnesses into the House?

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes, I do.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Minister, please introduce your witnesses.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm pleased to be here today to present the proposed 2023-2024 Main Estimates for the Department of Environment and Climate Change. With me today I have Dr. Erin Kelly, deputy minister of environment and natural resources and acting deputy minister of Lands. She's on my right.

On my left is Julian Kanigan, assistant deputy minister of Environment and Climate Change, Environment and Natural Resources.

We also have Dr. Brett Elkin, assistant deputy minister, operations, for environment and natural resources.

And Blair Chapman, assistant deputy minister of operations for Lands.

So we may be switching people in and out, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

All right. Thank you. Can you just clarify again, I didn't get -- so the gentleman's last name to your --

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

-- Kanigan.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Kanigan.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. And if you want to just introduce the witnesses, if you have to switch them out and just let me know if there's a question that you can't answer. I'm just going to let Members know that if we have to switch during the question time, I'll get the clerk to pause the time just while you're switching out so it doesn't eat up time if it comes to that. All right.

This is a new department, you know, there might be lots of questions. All right, so does committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?

March 7th

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Committee, we will defer the departmental summary and review the estimates by activity beginning with corporate management, starting on page 79, with information items on page 80 and 81. Questions. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 7th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. When can we expect to see an organizational chart for the new department? Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Dr. Kelly.

March 7th

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Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. There's a high-level organization chart that can be found in the main estimates as it is, and we're currently working with staff in the department to go through the organization design. We want to make sure that we do it right the first time. Our hope is that we'll have that -- the majority of it done before April 1st but there will be some optimization that occurs into the new year. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 7th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I guess it's my hope that before we approve the budget for this new department, MLAs would be able to see some sort of -- even if it's the draft before April 1st, detailed organizational chart. I'm going to drill down a little bit more into some questions about that.

Can someone explain to me how we go about deciding -- you know, presumably I'm looking at this, there's obviously duplications. You can only have one director of finance, you know, and one manager of comms or policy or how you go about deciding and when you will decide who of the duplicate positions gets the job? Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Deputy minister.

March 7th

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Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. We're currently working with human resources to determine and look at this process. This has been an ongoing process where folks have been involved from the department. It's unlikely that there will be a detailed organizational design fully implemented before April 1st. We're looking at making sure that the assistant deputy ministers and the directors are in place. But this is an HR process and will follow the HR rules regarding this. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 7th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Yeah, thank you. You know, I get we're probably not going to finish everything up. But can someone just explain to me -- I mean, there's certain positions where clearly -- or it seems to me come April 1 you absolutely have to decide, you know, who is the superintendent in a region. To just have two people saying they are this regional superintendent for ECC seems a recipe for disaster. So, you know, how -- can someone just explain to me how we decide that? Is it a public competition, do we -- does the deputy minister and the Minister appoint one of the two? Could anyone, in theory, apply; I just want to understand the process. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

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Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. There are defined HR processes for dealing with this. The first one is to look at the org design to determine if there are affected employees. We're in the process of doing this at this time. We will be following the HR process as we go forward. As I mentioned, our priority right now, and this has been communicated to staff, is to ensure that we have the assistant deputy ministers and the directors in place prior to April 1st, which is our goal. We have long been communicating that this would -- that there would be an optimization phase where we would need to look at the org design in more detail to make sure that the org design that we ultimately come up with is the right design and works for the people that are in the department and doing that work.

We will ensure that there is -- that as of April 1st, they're still able to conduct all the work that the department needs to do, especially with our partners. That's something that's a goal of the department as well. But we need to follow the HR processes. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 7th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I get an answer -- so okay, the goal for April 1st to have all the ADMs that I can see on this chart here and all the directors in place. Would that mean that they are all just acting in those roles, or would they actually have been hired to that role through the HR processes? Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Take it to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Deputy minister.

March 7th

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Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. It is our goal to have folks into those positions permanently. There may be some that are transfer assignments until we can get there, but our goal is to be as consistent at that level as possible and to have those people in place to help with the optimization because ultimately, they will be the leaders of these teams. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any further questions to the corporate management? Member for Kam Lake.

March 7th

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Yeah, thank you very much, Madam Chair. And, Madam Chair, I'm sure the Minister can kind of sense some uneasiness from Members on this one here and especially approving a budget with almost 500 staff in it. And to be honest, it actually increases by one staff member from 2022-2023 to 2023-2024. So I'm not sure -- maybe I can start there. Why, if we don't even have an org chart, is the department increasing a staff member? Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

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Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the budget that you're looking at right now is an A plus B budget. It's the ENR budget plus the Lands budget. As we described previously, we need to go through this optimization period and our hope is that through business planning, we'll be able to show where there have been the changes in some of these staff members that Members are putting forward.

The changes that we're seeing right now are due to the fact that there are some sunsets of positions, and there are new positions fire- related from supplementary funding for the fire program that have come into play. That's why you're seeing the change in the numbers. I'm happy to get into more detail when we get to those parts of the main estimates. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

March 7th

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Yeah, I just have uneasiness with bringing more people into the fold when there's already so much change happening during this optimization phase. I'm wondering if the deputy -- or if the Minister, sorry, can speak to what the deadline is for the org chart for the rest of the staff if we know that as of April 1st we'll know who ADMs and directors are. I'm wondering if there is the ability to kind of stipulate a deadline on the rest of that?

My concern is that it's not really fair to public servants to not have any certainty in their jobs. Just from hearing from different people that, you know, work for Lands or, you know, traditionally Lands or traditionally ENR, there's a lot of concern over what the future holds. That creates really, really negative staff morale. It creates fear of sustainability of income, and people end up looking for other jobs right away. And so my concern is not only for the certainty of the staff but also for the sustainability of this new department Environment and Climate Change. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

I'll start, and then I'll turn to the deputy minister. So we've been working in conjunction with our staff. We've been talking to our staff as we move forward. We are engaging them in our process. It's not where we've -- in previous, there's -- they didn't have a say in it. We're actually working with them on the process. And we've had numerous conversations with our staff. We've had our staff out in the regions as well at the headquarters. So for further detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

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Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. There's definitely always concern, and it's warranted during these processes. It's very challenging for people when there's change, and we recognize that, and work very closely with folks and had many discussions about this. We made a decision at the beginning of this that it was best to have the folks who are doing the work involved in looking at the org design and the optimization of that because they know best how they work with others, rather than going in and just defining an org design that may not work in the end. And we're trying to minimize the potential for there to have to be far more work done on the org design, which would just keep people in kind of limbo for quite some time.

With this, we expect that there are actually quite a few -- quite very few people that are going to be impacted. Let me say that again because I misspoke. Very few people that will be impacted. We're working with HR to define the number right now. But at this point, it's looking like less than ten individuals that may be affected. And of those, there would be people that would be offered a reasonable job offer. It's very few people that would be impacted in this. And that messaging has been made clear to folks at the department as well. So I'm hopeful that people will feel more comfortable that this is a small number of folks that are being impacted.

The messaging from the GNWT has been clear that this is not a reductions exercise. It's to be more effective and efficient, and that's part of why we need this optimization phase which will culminate in a business plan and that is where it's intended to show the changes so we have time to make sure that we're doing it right. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

March 7th

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Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, my next question is in regards to computer hardware and software. One of the things that helps the government be a lot more effective and efficient is being able to have systems that speak to one another. Is there a concern from ECC in terms of amalgamating the software that each department is currently using or in being able to have kind of, for example, Lands software be able to speak to other departments for more effective and efficient working relationships and breaking down silos. Is there a concern that this value is enough or not enough, or is there concerns around, I guess, the digitization piece? Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Could the Member tell us exactly what page she's on. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

79.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

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Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So this computer hardware and software line is for corporate management, so it's for the directorate layer of the department. So we're not concerned. The variance that you're seeing here is related to an unbudgeted computer software and hardware expenditure that was quite small. When we get into the more detail in the main estimates, it'll become clear that there's more funding for computer hardware and software in each of the different activities. And we think that there's enough to support the merger. There's actually quite a lot that's been going on between the departments right now looking at making sure that things talk to each other and that we're going to be able to continue with business as usual as of April 1st. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Are there questions under corporate management? Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. So given that this is a new department that's going to be created as of April 1st, one of the things that usually happens is you get an establishment policy that -- for new departments. And I'm just wondering where we're at with an establishment policy for this new department? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. So we sent a draft letter to SCEDE on February 2nd on this. But we are actually -- it's going to Cabinet soon, and we're processing with that document. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, I'm not sure how much detail I can get into but I think it would be fair to say that there was significant concerns expressed about what was in the establishment policy and, probably more importantly, what wasn't there. What kind of changes are going to be made and are we going to see it before it's finalized by Cabinet? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So we seen -- we've got their recommendations. There's some recommendations that we agreed to and some that we did not. But we will be getting back to committee on what we're -- how we're proceeding. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, okay, thanks. Well, glad to hear that some of the concerns, and they were pretty serious, were actually acted on. But I guess are the Regular MLAs going to get to see that before it's approved by Cabinet, I guess is my question. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thanks. For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

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Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. We look closely at the input that was provided from committee. Some of the input was at a level that generally is not in an establishment policy although we recognize the intent and importance of the input that was provided. Where it was consistent with the input into an establishment policy, we did that. And we are -- we will be providing, as the Minister mentioned, comments back during the process with where those edits have been made. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. I think I can feel a Member's statement coming on. But I don't think we're going to get another chance at it, and I think that's probably not good because there was very serious concerns raised with it. And we'll just have to wait and see, but the Minister knows that if I'm not happy, I'm going to get up and talk about it in the House. So not much more I can do right now. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Any further questions? Mr. O'Reilly.

March 7th

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Sorry, thanks, Madam Chair. I wasn't clear; my apologies. I don't have anything further on this first activity. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

Thank you, Madam Chair. When two departments come together, you expect some reorganization and no duplicates. I just wonder what the criteria was for this amalgamation of these two departments, and I wonder if there's not -- and they've added one position already. So there's no -- there's more duplicates, okay. Usually when you amalgamate something, it's for lesser costs. And we're not seeing that in this whole transaction. I could see it if it was giving more positions to the regional centres and small communities, but I can't justify to build an empire here again in headquarters. I just want to know the rationale behind this whole transaction, and I'd like to hear what the Minister has to say on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. So when we first started doing this process, we said it's not a cost saving measure. We will amalgamate it, it's A plus B, as the deputy minister said. But then we're going through the process of optimization. So it's going to take us a bit of time to do the optimization. We don't want to, in the past, just cut. We're not just cutting to cut. We're trying to make sure that we do it right moving forward. So that there is where we have our staff in place, having our conversations, where we need to see things and where we need to be able to put our programs and our staff. And that's what we're doing. So that was part of the optimization process. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

Madam Chair, for clarity, I never mentioned cuts. If they're going to use the same budget and they're amalgamating, maybe some of those positions should have gone to the regional centres and even to some of the smaller communities. That's what I said. You know, I just -- I have a real problem especially with the -- because we don't have an actual chart in here but I'm just wondering -- so you have a deputy minister and then senior management. How many assistant deputy ministers are scheduled for this department? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. So the work chart's on page 70, and my understanding is we will have five deputy ministers. But for clarity, I'll turn to the -- or sorry, not deputy ministers, assistant deputy ministers, sorry. Five assistant deputy ministers. But for clarity, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

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Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So there are four assistant deputy ministers between ENR and Lands at this time. There is one new assistant deputy minister position for operations that will be a regional position that is -- it is envisioned as an Indigenous pathing position to support Indigenous people to getting into senior management in the new department. So that's the new assistant deputy minister position that we're looking at.

With respect to the positions -- the change in positions that folks are seeing, there was a sunset of eight positions related to section 11 agreement and the nature fund agreement. And there was forced growth for ten new positions, all of them regional related to forest fire.

So as folks are aware, our fire season went until October this year, which is far longer than normal, and we're seeing more fires in some of the areas of the Northwest Territories than we've ever seen before. So we were able to access forced growth funding as a department to support firefighting personnel in several communities, a wildfire training position in Fort Smith, and a fire technician position in Lutselk'e. And all of those positions are regional positions. That's why you're seeing the difference in positions.

With respect to those duplicate positions, those will be addressed through the optimization process that we're dealing with, and we will make -- as I mentioned, we're expecting that there will be less than ten folks that are affected that are unionized employees. So that will be dealt with through the optimization phase that we're currently working towards. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

Madam Chair, I'm just concerned I guess about the regional office in Fort Smith, especially the ENR office. I want to ensure that affirmative action is followed and, you know, we have someone that is born and raised in Fort Smith, educated there, and I just want to ensure that all those things come into play when the time comes. And I'd like to know how -- I'm sure that everybody feels that way, even with the Inuvik region, with the other regional offices in the territory. And I just want to see how the Minister feels about that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

We will be following the affirmative action policy, the HR policy, so I can guarantee you we will be following HR as the Member quite eloquently suggested. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

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Frieda Martselos Thebacha

No questions, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Are there any further questions under corporate management?

Seeing none, please turn to page 79. Environment and Climate Change, corporate management, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $11,789,000. Does committee agree?

March 7th

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. I'll now go to environmental management monitoring and climate change, beginning on page 83 with information items on page 84 and 85. Questions. Member for Nunakput.

March 7th

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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. No, just in regards to climate change and monitoring on the river from what's happening in Alberta, we always worry about it because we used to have a lot more check stations in regards to water stations along the Mackenzie River coming all the way down to Tuk. What's the status of those, and how many do we have active? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Kelly.

March 7th

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Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. We conduct regular monitoring at approximately 80 sites. Of these, 40 sites are part of the Northwest Territories community-based monitoring program near 21 communities, and there's also sampling of trans-boundary waterways on the Slave, Hay, Liard, and Peel Rivers. There are 38 sites for the community-based monitoring network. There's 26 sites for our North Slave water quality network. And the South Slave water quality network, there's ten sites. And then the trans-boundary river network one, there's four sites.

We also, through our trans-boundary agreement, have access to monitoring information that Environment Canada collects and that is collected by Alberta Environment and Parks, and we're able to access that as an early warning system for information coming towards the Northwest Territories on water quality. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Nunakput.

March 7th

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Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. Water quality down and saying some from spring I guess, until October on the river, how many times are those sites checked in regards to water testing on that river? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

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Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5712

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. Many of the water quality stations that the GNWT supports are not done in the wintertime but the ones that the federal government does are. And the only time that they're not sampled is when the ice is not safe for folks to go on. The GNWT, in situations where there are concerns about water quality, will work with communities. For example, what's happening in Fort Smith right now, where we're using the drinking water and to take additional sampling under ice, but there are challenges with ice safety. So in the late spring and in the fall before the ice is safe is the only time that those federal stations are not monitored to my understandings. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5712

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Nunakput.

March 7th

Page 5712

Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. In regards to the Mackenzie River Basin board, is that -- like, the board on that -- where is everyone -- I guess board members or directors, where they're from and how they're selected? Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5712

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5712

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5712

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5712

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the Members of the Mackenzie River basin board, there's Indigenous members and government members from each of the governments that are within the Mackenzie River basin. So Yukon, Northwest Territories, BC, Alberta, and Saskatchewan, as well as the federal government. And then there's Indigenous representatives from those areas as well.

For the Northwest Territories, we have an Indigenous steering committee for the water stewardship strategy. They use criteria to select one of their members to participate on that board because then they come back, and they communicate with the Indigenous steering committee. And right now it's Leon Andrew of the Sahtu. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Nunakput.

March 7th

Page 5713

Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. In regards to that, Madam Chair, with the water strategy, I guess with the spill that we had in Alberta last week that -- from that Esso site, was there any I guess flags raised in regards of doing more water sampling and checking of the sites for coming up in the upcoming -- like if not now, like in the near future? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5713

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes, like I said in my Minister's statement, we are working with the Town of Fort Smith to increase the monitoring on that. And as well we're working with -- I think it's the Town of Fort Chipewyan and they've -- they're monitoring as well, and we're checking their data as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Nunakput.

March 7th

Page 5713

Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. That's all the questions I have right now. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Member for Great Slave.

March 7th

Page 5713

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, some of my questions have been answered already. But I am going to come back to, unfortunately, the ADM conversation and more so in a different manner, not so much whether you need five. But I look at some of the distribution of the percentage of funding or amounts of work that seem to be within the department under the different ADM streams proposed, and I'm wondering some look very heavy. Like, one is 48 percent of your budget is the wildlife and forest management, and then others are only like 6 percent. So I'm just wondering about the workload distribution for these ADMs. I get that for now some of the really technical stuff is probably still staying lumped together, for lack of a better word, but I'm just wondering has -- I know this will be part of the optimization but are we overburdening, say, the poor ADM of wildlife and forest management versus the one of corporate direction considering they have such different sizes of departments? Thank you -- or areas.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5713

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5713

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So actually there's been a look at the workload and that's how we ended up with the ADMs that we have. So right now at Environment and Natural Resources, the ADM that's responsible for wildlife and fire is also responsible for all of the ops, the regional ops for the territory, right. So all the superintendents also work with them. So we looked at dividing out the workload. Fire has a large budget. That's what you're seeing there with that big budget piece, but we looked at what the workload was and tried to make those equal, as equal as possible.

With respect to the regional ops ADM, there is one issue that we need to work on through optimization and that's at ENR, the way that the budgets were done, the regional ops portion of the budgets was part of wildlife or part of environment, for example. For Lands, they have a regional ops budget. So in this budget, you'll see that there's a relatively small budget for regional ops and it's because we need to work to try to show the ENR -- the ENR one is in the actual activity. Under wildlife, for example, the regional ops is there as well, and we need to work towards for next main estimates to be able to display that better. So hopefully that helps with the explanation of why there's a difference in the level of funding that you can see there but the workloads have been balanced. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 7th

Page 5713

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you. So just to make sure that I understand it correctly -- it's been a long few weeks. So then that means that in the next estimates we sort of start to see the ops pieces pulled out of these specific sort of wildlife forest management, for example, and moved into the regional operations so that it will become more of a fulsome look? And I see everybody nodding their heads so I'm going to say -- take that as a yes and not go back to them and ask my next question, which is around some of these pieces, like the traditional knowledge funding, the water strategy action plan, etcetera, in the contribution. And, again, I always just want to put a plug in, because I know these are great areas in which we can get youth out and money into communities and have the people come and -- what's the word -- the guardians, etcetera, all be involved.

So I'm just curious to know why we're not seeing too much of an increase here. I mean, I guess we are a bit and -- no, that's something else. But, yeah, we aren't seeing more of an increase into these types of programs where we really could be facilitating that development of those skill sets in youth and others. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5713

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5713

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. One of the awkward things about main estimates is that when we go section by section, we don't see all of the traditional knowledge funding that's put forward, right. So we're seeing it piece by piece that applies to this particular section of the main estimates. I would definitely say that there's far more money that's being spent on traditional knowledge throughout the entire main estimates than what's being displayed in this one part of it. We're always looking for opportunities to include multiple knowledge systems in the work that we do to include youth and to make sure that we're working with elders in the work that we do. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 7th

Page 5713

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I guess I just always come back to this one because it's -- I just know for myself and having getting into sciences and such, it's usually just one exposure to one sort of professional that might make that difference for yourself. So is it possible for us, and I know that there's a lot of work already being done here, but at some point to maybe have that all gathered together. And I get that ENR -- or ECC now is a very technical type department; however, a lot of that work that's being done there is so important when it comes to traditional knowledge and Indigenous people that I feel like we -- you know, it would be nice to know what all is being done in one place at some point to sort of look at or analyze the spending in this department and see actually -- and not just from a like how can we do it better, but how good are we doing it, you know, and maybe being a good news story about further conversation around our regulatory process and how we do involve the peoples whose land it actually is. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5713

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

It's going to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Okay. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5713

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So we do have a traditional knowledge annual report, and one of the functions that ENR has right now that will be part of ECC is the coordination for traditional knowledge reporting for the whole of the GNWT. And we're working on a traditional knowledge action plan that we have input from Indigenous governments and Indigenous people across the Northwest Territories that will be -- we're looking at for the end of this year, which will also help with that.

There are traditional knowledge line items kind of peppered throughout the main estimates here so you can see where the department is working on it. But those two pieces are where they're kind of pulled together, the work that's being done on TK within the department and also among all GNWT departments. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 7th

Page 5713

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, and I really do appreciate that, and I obviously need to get my hands on the latest traditional knowledge report and see so that I can speak better to it.

I guess I do want to come back a little bit to the spill that did occur in Alberta that we weren't notified about. Is there a mechanism in place -- I guess, first of all, was the spill reported through their own mechanisms that we have such as the 24-hour spill report line? So were they following the regulatory process and if so, is there some way that someone in our department or our government is checking that, or do we just only rely on them notifying us? Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5713

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5713

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5713

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So our understanding is that Imperial Oil did, in May of last year, let the regulator know that there was seepage that was occurring. That information was not relayed to us at that time. We also understand that in early February there was a spill, and that information was not relayed to us at that time. That's why you would have heard the Minister's statement, and we've been in discussions with Alberta.

Their perspective on this at this point in time is that they didn't think that -- they thought that it was contained and would not be able to get into the tributaries and into the Athabasca River. We have suggested that we feel that with seepage, that's hard to ascertain and that with spring melt runoff, there is a likelihood that some of that could potentially get into tributaries. So it's not up to the company itself to report to the GNWT, and we don't always have access to spill reports in other jurisdictions. It is written into the agreement that the Government of Alberta will notify us of these spills. And to be honest with you, they've done a fairly good job of notifying us of some of the other spills that have happened in certain basins. This one, obviously not. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5714

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 7th

Page 5714

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. And with my previous hat on, I can understand exactly how this would have happened and sometimes, you know, just a spill gets reported and it really doesn't have much consequence and so therefore it probably just didn't trigger anybody in Alberta to actually think to tell us.

I guess -- I have already requested, and I hope that I'll get them, any technical reports that were issued or given to us. And I guess with my last minute left, can the Minister or department speak to what actually was spilled? Like, what are the contaminants of concern and, you know, is it just around hydrocarbons or are we looking at other chemicals and such used in the process? And if so, how far out did they spread that they're aware of now? Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5714

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5714

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5714

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5714

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So it was industrial wastewater that was spilled and also that is seeping is my understanding. And we are actually scheduled for a briefing with Imperial on Thursday. Alberta did respond last Thursday, and there was a briefing with folks from the Alberta Energy Regulator that we attended. And to answer some more questions, we have a briefing where we can ask some of these questions as well. So hydrocarbons, and then there were a number of other metals and sulfides. So metals like arsenic and things that you would expect would be associated with this type of work. And we do not have technical reports at this time. I'm assuming that that's -- that the technical briefing will be what we get on Thursday. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5714

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5714

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

No, thank you. Yes, sorry. I just wanted to tell the -- I do have a meeting with the Minister on Thursday at 1 o'clock. So I will be having that conversation with the Minister Savage as well. And we have written out a letter to Minister Savage and to the federal minister, and we're in the process of trying to table those documents here in the House. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5714

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5714

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, you know, I guess the topic of water is very important. You know, the Mackenzie River basin I think counts for about -- has a drainage area of about 1.8 million square miles, which is about 20 percent of Canada's land mass. And you know, it all comes down, you know, funneling through this area. And, you know, as we see more development in south, the bigger the impact could be. And, you know, with the Kearl spill, for some reason we missed it. Partly because, I guess, we weren't informed by the Alberta government. And secondly, I'm not sure if anybody was monitoring, you know, the media or as well the Alberta regulator's pages as well, web pages or whatever. And, you know, I think that it's important that we do that. But anyways, we missed it and now it's big news all over. But one thing that I guess I'm interested in is that we do have these trans-boundary water agreements. And how many do we have, I guess, with respect to, you know, the Mackenzie River basin? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5714

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So we have three. One with the Yukon government, one with BC, and one with the Alberta government.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5714

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Sorry, and we're negotiating with Saskatchewan.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5714

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. And the minister in -- I think in the media there had indicated that they would be using a dispute mechanism. And I'm just wondering, you know, how -- or if that mechanism has been used and how it will be used in this instance with the Kearl spill. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5714

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So this is the first time it's being used. We've tried to do the other process of reaching out to the Alberta government and getting the information this way. But because of the severity of this spill and them not telling us information that we needed, we've implemented this. And for the detail on how the process works, I'm going to, with your permission, turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5714

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So there's a number of things that can be done under the dispute resolution mechanism, and we're working with Alberta right now on what this will look like for this one. So there's a discussion of where we would like to go with this.

The GNWT's perspective is that we would like an independent look to come back to the bilateral management committee and tell them what their thoughts are on this. It is under the agreement that Alberta government's responsibility to notify us of spills. That's one of the reasons that we signed the agreement. And part of it was because we were learning about things in the media in the past. And I will say again that, in general, Alberta has let us know about spills in the past. But in this case, we were not alerted to it. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5714

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I guess on the news the premier said -- of Alberta said it wasn't, you know, their responsibility, and it was up to Imperial to notify the parties that might be -- you know, that are looking at damages. But the one thing I guess with this dispute mechanism, you know, we're doing extra probably testing hopefully. Is there a cost -- an extra cost related to this now, and would that dispute mechanism allow for those costs to be picked up by the Alberta government or Imperial? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5714

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

I'll start, and then I'll turn to the deputy minister. So I know what the premier of Alberta said. We don't have an agreement with the industry. We have an agreement with the Government of Alberta. And I've made that very clear it is with them that they need to be sharing this information. So I need to make that very clear. I've had that conversation today. And so sharing it here today but for further detail on the process, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5714

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So for the dispute resolution mechanism, we'll have to see what additional costs are related to that. The monitoring costs that we're incurring could be brought forward to the bilateral management committee as part of this, and I'm -- we can definitely do that. The cost for the BMC are shared between the NWT and Alberta as per the agreement itself. So the dispute resolution mechanism cost would be part of that shared expense. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5714

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. One thing I haven't really heard, I guess, in the news or from the department is the involvement of the Indigenous governments in the territories who -- you know, who have comprehensive agreements signed. And in those agreements, you know, they have some, you know, water rights and, you know, the right to, you know, quantity and quality of water as well. So what discussions have been taking place with Indigenous governments within the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5714

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So as soon as we hit the send button to tell you guys what was going on, two seconds later we reached out to our Indigenous governments and gave them the same information. But that's the process. For further detail on what the staff have done, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5715

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So we sent out information, as the Minister mentioned, to Indigenous governments, also to community governments because we know that they have concerns as well. We're working with the community government in Fort Smith as well as the Indigenous governments on the monitoring, the additional monitoring that is to take place. And we do have, as I mentioned earlier, the Indigenous steering committee that -- that group, as I mentioned, they nominate the Mackenzie River basin board member but they also nominate the bilateral management committee member that takes part in the bilateral management meetings with Alberta and Northwest Territories. That was done purposefully so that the Indigenous members have links back to all of the Indigenous members of the Indigenous steering committee so there will be a way of sharing information that way as well, including through the dispute resolution mechanism. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5715

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to talk a bit about the, I guess, water research and monitoring. And, you know, after a couple years of flooding here, how much additional work is going into that to monitor, like, especially for Hay River and the Hay River watershed, are we doing any extra work so that we can, you know, get some idea whether -- and somewhat predict, I guess, whether we may see flooding? Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5715

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy Minister. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Deputy Minister.

March 7th

Page 5715

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So we have a staff of several hydrologists that work diligently on looking at and creating outlooks. They do not have predictive capacity. They do work with their colleagues in the federal government and upstream with other governments. Predictive capacity on rivers that are subject to ice jam flooding is very, very challenging work. What we can do and what we continue to do is look at the snow survey data that is collected and make sure that gets out to the communities. Our hydrologists work with MACA and with communities themselves during these times where the -- and we do put out public announcements, as you've seen, when there is the potential for flooding. And then there's -- during flooding, there's daily information that's posted and sent out to folks who are part of a distribution list. And when it's not flood time, there's monthly outlook emails that are sent out that express what's going on with respect to water levels, water levels and snowpack throughout the territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5715

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. Can you -- I guess, you've identified some criteria there, but I -- can you expand on that bit because, you know, we talk about, you know, volume of snow; we may have some rain down south; we have cold weather possibly that could impact it; we might have -- you know, you say that with ice we -- you know, it makes it difficult to predict as well but, you know, if it -- it just depends what the weather's like we could have thicker ice. If we don't have a lot of snow, that could cause that as well. We have, you know, in the Hay River for instance, we got the mouth of the river and the -- you know, the channel and that's getting, you know -- I guess basically the silt is increasing, the amount of silt that's in there. Does that have -- you know, what kind of impact does that have. We've got two channels there. We've got the west channel and the east channel. And so I'm just trying to get an idea, you know, what we're looking at when we look at flooding aspects. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5715

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5715

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5715

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5715

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Mr. Chair -- Madam Chair, my apologies again. Not having a good day with that; I'm sorry.

So all of the factors that the Member mentioned are things that are considered and all of those things, including the existing water level from the -- like, from the previous year, if it's high, are all things that are challenging with respect to predicting if flooding is going to occur. Our department works with the federal government, Natural Resources Canada and Environment and Climate Change Canada, to refine methods to create inundation hazard and risk floodplain maps in locations that experience ice jam flooding. So this will result in preliminary inundation maps for Hay River, Aklavik, and Fort Simpson. They also monitor and evaluate water, snow, and climate conditions prior to ice breakup. They share those snow surveys that I mentioned as well as a spring water outlook. And I also spoke about those daily updates during critical flood times. And then there's a monthly water monitoring bulletin to the public. Our scientists have written initial reports for MACA on the recent flooding events that describe the factors that contributed to the flooding as well as the uncertainty of direct linkages to climate change. I guess those are the types of things I think that the Member is looking for. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5715

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

Page 5715

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. I want to thank my colleague from Hay River South for asking a number of the questions I was going to ask, and I want to thank the Minister for pointing out to the premier of Alberta that we signed a trans-boundary agreement with their government, not Imperial Oil. So maybe educating the minister when you're meeting with her tomorrow, getting the premier to actually read the trans-boundary agreement might be helpful.

But I guess I want to get some assurance that there's -- if we enter into this dispute resolution process, that if there is like an independent third party review, extra monitoring costs, work that we have to do, that there's the ability to recover some or all of those costs through the dispute resolution process. So that's my question to the Minister. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5715

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5715

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So first and foremost, the meeting's on Thursday, not tomorrow, and I apologize if I gave the misinformation. We would try to get the money back through the process. So we do have a process, and costs are a part of that process. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5715

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

Page 5715

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks for that. Yeah, and I look forward to the letters the Minister's going to table. But I guess I want to go back to, you know, where we started with some of this stuff, and this was the move on the part of maybe the Alberta and federal governments to have some sort of control discharge from these humongous tailings ponds. And, look, I'd rather have a controlled discharge if the water's treated properly than this kind of stuff happening because this kind of stuff is going to happen; it's going to continue to happen until -- it's inevitable. So where are we at with this process to look at whether and how discharges might be allowed from those tailings ponds? As I understood it, Alberta was supposed to do some kind of modeling, some sort of health impact, maybe ecosystem impact work; where is all of that at and what level of engagement and involvement do we have? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5715

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5715

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, with the process, six information gaps have been identified by oil sands, mine monitoring science team, modeling environmental concentration and effect, human and ecological health risk assessments, technical -- technology-based effluent limits assessment, toxicity testing, enhanced baseline environmental monitoring, and local and regional scale environmental monitoring. And as I stressed to the minister from Alberta, until we see the science we do not want to see water flowing -- treated effluent put in there. But for further detail, with your permission, I would ask the deputy minister to enhance the answer. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5715

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5715

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So both Alberta and the federal government are looking at regulations for this. Alberta has told us that they're doing this assessment of information gaps to determine if this is the approach that they want to take. They have -- they're saying that they have not made a decision on treated -- release of treated effluent yet. We have received four of the six reports on the information gaps. We are in the process of reviewing them. We have external experts that are reviewing them with us who have experience in all of these fields. There has been one that we have responded to, and there's been technical meetings on a couple of the other ones but we have not responded to the other three that we have at this point, and we expect to get the other two as they complete their work. So the water experts at the GNWT, combined with expertise outside that we've contracted, are reviewing these and bringing forward any concerns, and then they are being brought forward through the bilateral management committee to Alberta government. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5715

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

Page 5715

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Great, thanks, Madam Chair. I appreciate that level of detail. And I support the department getting the expertise that's necessary to do this work, and I know you got -- you went out for two RFPs. I think you got another one out there now, so that's good. Is any of this stuff public, and where would you find it? Do we publish, or do we make any of this information, these peer reviews that we're doing, is any of this stuff available for people here to see what's going on? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5715

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5715

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5715

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5716

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. We have, on many, many occasions, at the DMC, after meetings with ADMs and the deputies, relayed to Alberta how important this is to the residents of the Northwest Territories and, in particular, Indigenous governments in the Northwest Territories. We have asked them to engage with Indigenous governments and with the public on this approach. They have not finalized their engagement process that they're going to use for this. The federal government has said that they will engage with Indigenous governments in the Northwest Territories on their process.

We have also brought forward that we would like them to provide us with some messaging that they feel comfortable with that we can make public because they have asked us at this point to keep our responses technical and government to government right now, and we've expressed that there will need to be information provided on what this looks like. And they have said that they will work with us and understand that needs to happen once the review process has occurred. So I'll just reiterate we have asked them that when they -- if they decide to go forward with the regulatory process after they've completed this that it involves public and engagement with Indigenous peoples in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

Page 5716

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks for that. Look, I think I understand a little bit of the complexity of all this stuff. But if we're submitting stuff, why can't we post that to an ENR web page and let the public know what we're doing. The other guys, they can do whatever they want; they can keep secrets; they can, you know, have misunderstandings about what information they share with us. But why can't we post the submissions, these peer reviews that are being done, on an ENR web page so the public and Indigenous governments know what we're doing? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5716

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

I would turn to the deputy minister so she can give you the correct answer. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5716

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. These reports are confidential, and the only way that they would share them with us was that our responses were confidential until the report is completed, and they've been able to do the analysis. So they're science-based reports and they're confidential reports. We were able to access them through the trans-boundary agreement and have the ability to provide comments. And at this point in time, Alberta's keeping that confidential. And as I mentioned, we've expressed to them the need to make sure that this information becomes public and that Indigenous governments are aware of the findings. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

Page 5716

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. If I wasn't concerned before, now I'm really worried that all of this stuff is happening in secret behind closed doors. This is not good. And I'm not sure we should even be participating in that kind of process. That is very upsetting that -- look, good that we're getting experts; we're doing our homework to look at this. But if all of this stuff is happening behind closed doors and is being kept secret and we're only going to find out about it if Alberta decides they're going to do a regulation, that's not a good place to be. So I don't know, Minister -- or sorry, Madam Chair, I think the Minister needs to raise this on Thursday with the Alberta environment minister that this is just a totally unacceptable process, for us spending taxpayers' money doing all of this stuff in secret, not telling our people what we're doing. This is wrong. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5716

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

I'll start, and then I'll turn to the deputy minister. So we will have the conversation. I can guarantee that Alberta government is listening to what's happening and has been listening to it. I can -- because soon as we reached out to the minister's office, the staff were reaching out to our staff right away. But for the process, I know the Member's not happy with the process but at least we're getting the information. But for detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5716

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. This is Alberta's engagement process, and they're engaging internally within Alberta on whether they're going to do regs or not. And through our trans-boundary process, we were able to get access and have the opportunity to provide input. Their process at this time is confidential and from our standpoint, we most certainly want to take part in this process because we're able to see these reports as they're being drafted; we get to provide input from an NWT perspective and be clear right from the get-go what the NWT's perspective is. Once the regulations are being contemplated, if the regulations are being contemplated, because Alberta's been clear with us that they haven't made that decision yet, we have been very clear at multiple levels that there needs to be public and Indigenous engagement on this issue in the NWT. They are committed to doing that in Alberta. And as I mentioned, the federal government will be engaging with Indigenous governments in the Northwest Territories and Alberta. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5716

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Here I know that with the contaminated site it's under the environment protection and waste management. So last year it was near budgeted 344. I just -- I want to know how much is allocated for the contaminated sites this year?

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5716

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5716

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5716

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Can the Member tell us what page she's on. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

83.

March 7th

Page 5716

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5716

Dr. Kelly

All of the funding that ENR has for contaminated sites would be under environmental protection and waste management. But it should be noted that the Government of the Northwest Territories has an environmental liability fund, and so when there's remediation work that is being done, that's where the money to do some of the remediation work comes from. So it's not just in this place where you would see the contaminated sites budget. Other departments also have funding to do work on their own contaminated sites. But that environmental liabilities fund is where, for example, ENR would go to look for additional funding for Canol Trail, for example, or other sites that we're looking at. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5716

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Yeah, the reason why I ask about that is because there's a lot of contaminated sites in the NWT and there are still -- you know, a lot of people are still concerned, you know, especially if it's in their backyard. We have oil and gas. We have uranium. We have the Giant Mine. Now with mining that's expected to close. So I'm just wondering if this was enough. The money that you're -- you know, it's for remediation, you said that. So how much of that is going to be for, like -- for the employment and for -- or is it for positions more? Is more going for the position or for the cleanup?

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5716

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Kelly.

March 7th

Page 5716

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So there's a variety of types of contaminated sites in the NWT. Some of them are still the federal government's responsibility, and they're paying to do the remediation of those sites. Some of them, it's a partnership between the GNWT and the federal government, like the Giant Mine Remediation Project that you spoke of. Some of them are sites that are the responsibility of different GNWT departments, and those departments would have budget to remediate those sites. At ENR, some of them would be related to fire activity, for example, firefighting activity. That would be one example. We also have some other contaminated sites that we're responsible for. The money that you would see here is people who are doing work on contaminated sites mostly at the policy level and also who are running some of the contracts to hire people to go and do the contaminated sites work. And often those would be funded through the environmental liabilities fund that I mentioned.

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, deputy minister. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5716

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Thank you. Yeah, for the position, I see here -- because we're still on the environmental management and monitoring climate, and for the active position, there's nothing in Tlicho region on page 85, but North Slave has two, and headquarters they have 66. So why there is nothing allocated in Tlicho region?

March 7th

Page 5716

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So this is -- these are position listings for all of the folks that do water and environmental protection work in the -- and climate change and cumulative impacts in the department. And if you can see there's the two in the North Slave, those are folks that are doing it for the North Slave region and that includes the Tlicho, the way that the North Slave region is set up. So there are two folks that are doing that work regionally, and then the headquarters staff are also supporting work all over the territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5717

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

So this North Slave position, it's located in Yellowknife or in Tlicho region?

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Deputy minister Kelly.

March 7th

Page 5717

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. The positions are located in Yellowknife.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5717

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Yeah, those are important positions for our community because for in our regions, we have a lot of contaminated sites. We have a lot of issues. So it would be nice if we can have -- will the Minister commit to transferring these two positions to Tlicho region? Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. No, that's for all of the North Slave. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5717

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Did he say it's for all of the Northwest Territories or North Slave, the two position that I'm talking about?

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

It's for the North Slave, and it's the water resource officers. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5717

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Yeah, North Slave consists of Yellowknife and Lutselk'e consists -- Fort Resolution, Dettah, N'dilo, and Tlicho regions. So what I would like to see is something specifically for Tlicho because we're not part of Yellowknife, and I keep saying that. So I just wanted to know if in the future, you know -- I know people do change all the time, so I would like to see more position transferred to Tlicho region. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. So right now we are not looking at relocating those positions specifically to the Tlicho. It's the North Slave, and that's where those positions are based right now in Yellowknife. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5717

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Thank you. Well, I mean, you know, it's -- it's doable; we can do something about that. So, yeah, that's -- I was really concerned about that because contaminated sites, people are still talking about. Still talking about the effects of the Rayrock that's in our backyard. Now there's other -- there the Fortune Minerals too as well, so. And with the diamond mine expected to close, so this funding, it would be nice if there were more positions in the small communities who are impacted by the -- who are affected more by the contaminated sites. So that's what I would like to see is that more be invested in the small communities to monitor these contaminated sites by bringing in more jobs to the small communities. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes, I think we need to -- I'll ask the deputy minister to explain what these positions are. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Kelly.

March 7th

Page 5717

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the regional positions that you're seeing here are water resource officers. They're not people that are working specifically on contaminated sites. So their role is to go around and do inspections at industrial sites, and they're housed in Yellowknife. Two of them are housed in Yellowknife right now, and they're in the middle of where the sites are to go and do this work.

The other -- there's a couple other regional positions in here that are environmental protection officers. None of them are directly related to contaminated sites although they do contribute to contaminated sites work. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5717

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

I would think they are related to, you know, to those specifics. But it would be nice to have more of those positions transferred to the regions. Even like with here, there's five assistant deputy ministers on page 70, and there's a superintendent for North Slave. Is that position in Yellowknife, or is it -- where is this job located at? And there's -- you know, a lot of these positions here as identified -- there's five assistant deputy ministers. A lot of these -- in the small communities where they settled land claims, these positions will be beneficial to help our land claim groups. That's why I'm asking that, you know, it -- what this department should do is that -- so they keep talking about having a good working relationship with Indigenous government. They should transfer some of these jobs where the Indigenous government or those with the settled land claims can really benefit from these positions. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

I'll start, and then I'll turn to the deputy minister. So 60 percent of our jobs are in the regional and 40 percent are in headquarters. So I'm very happy with our numbers. We got 60 percent. I need to stress to the Member 60 percent is there. But for further detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So we certainly look at positions -- at putting positions into regions. There's a renewable resource officer in Whatì that's looking after the Tlicho All-Season Road. We have a position for an officer that's in Behchoko for Dinaga We'ehodi as well. And I think that I expressed earlier there's an ADM position that we're -- the new ADM position that will be a regional position and will be wherever there is someone who has those skills in the region. We're certainly looking at opportunities to ensure that there's opportunities in regions for these positions. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes, and there's nine positions in Behchoko. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

Page 5717

Frieda Martselos Thebacha

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to clarify the protocol for notification of spills. What is the process for notification, and who is the first person that the Minister should be contacting when it comes to a spill?

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. Could the Member -- is it territorial or is it Alberta with the trans-boundary? Who is our contact; what's the question? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5717

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

Page 5717

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So we have three. One with the Yukon government, one with BC, and one with the Alberta government.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5717

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Sorry, and we're negotiating with Saskatchewan.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5718

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5718

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5718

Dr. Kelly

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5718

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5718

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5718

Dr. Kelly

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5718

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5718

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5718

Dr. Kelly

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5718

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5718

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy Minister. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Deputy Minister.

March 7th

Page 5718

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So we have a staff of several hydrologists that work diligently on looking at and creating outlooks. They do not have predictive capacity. They do work with their colleagues in the federal government and upstream with other governments. Predictive capacity on rivers that are subject to ice jam flooding is very, very challenging work. What we can do and what we continue to do is look at the snow survey data that is collected and make sure that gets out to the communities. Our hydrologists work with MACA and with communities themselves during these times where the -- and we do put out public announcements, as you've seen, when there is the potential for flooding. And then there's -- during flooding, there's daily information that's posted and sent out to folks who are part of a distribution list. And when it's not flood time, there's monthly outlook emails that are sent out that express what's going on with respect to water levels, water levels and snow pack throughout the territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 7th

Page 5718

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

March 7th

Page 5718

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th, 2023

Page 5718

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5718

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5718

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Mr. Chair -- Madam Chair, my apologies again. Not having a good day with that; I'm sorry.

March 7th

Page 5718

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

Page 5719

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5719

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

Page 5719

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5719

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5719

Dr. Kelly

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

Page 5719

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5719

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5719

Dr. Kelly

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

Page 5719

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5719

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

I would turn to the deputy minister so she can give you the correct answer. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5719

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. These reports are confidential, and the only way that they would share them with us was that our responses were confidential until the report is completed and they've been able to do the analysis. So they're science-based reports and they're confidential reports. We were able to access them through the trans-boundary agreement and have the ability to provide comments. And at this point in time, Alberta's keeping that confidential. And as I mentioned, we've expressed to them the need to make sure that this information becomes public and that Indigenous governments are aware of the findings. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 7th

Page 5719

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5719

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

March 7th

Page 5719

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Dr. Kelly

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5720

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Can the Member tell us what page she's on. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

83.

March 7th

Page 5720

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5720

Dr. Kelly

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5720

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Kelly.

March 7th

Page 5720

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So there's a variety of types of contaminated sites in the NWT. Some of them are still the federal government's responsibility, and they're paying to do the remediation of those sites. Some of them, it's a partnership between the GNWT and the federal government, like the Giant Mine Remediation Project that you spoke of. Some of them are sites that are the responsibility of different GNWT departments, and those departments would have budget to remediate those sites. At ENR, some of them would be related to fire activity,f for example, firefighting activity. That would be one example. We also have some other contaminated sites that we're responsible for. The money that you would see here is people who are doing work on contaminated sites mostly at the policy level and also who are running some of the contracts to hire people to go and do the contaminated sites work. And often those would be funded through the environmental liabilities fund that I mentioned.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, deputy minister. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5720

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Dr. Kelly

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5720

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

So this North Slave position, it's located in Yellowknife or in Tlicho region?

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Deputy minister Kelly.

March 7th

Page 5720

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. The positions are located in Yellowknife.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5720

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. No, that's for all of the North Slave. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5720

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Did he say it's for all of the Northwest Territories or North Slave, the two position that I'm talking about?

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

It's for the North Slave, and it's the water resource officers. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5720

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5720

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5720

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes, I think we need to -- I'll ask the deputy minister to explain what these positions are. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5720

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Kelly.

March 7th

Page 5721

Dr. Kelly

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 7th

Page 5721

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

I would think they are related to, you know, to those specifics. But it would be nice to have more of those positions transferred to the regions. Even like with here, there's five assistant deputy ministers on page 70, and there's a superintendent for North Slave. Is that position in Yellowknife, or is it -- where is this job located at? And there's -- you know, a lot of these positions here as identified, there's five assistant deputy minister. A lot of these -- in the small communities where they settled land claims, these positions will be beneficial to help our land claim groups. That's why I'm asking that, you know, it -- what this department should do is that -- so they keep talking about having a good working relationship with Indigenous government. They should transfer some of these jobs where the Indigenous government or those with the settled land claims can really benefit from these positions. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5721

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5721

Dr. Kelly

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5721

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes, and there's nine positions in Behchoko. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

Page 5721

Frieda Martselos Thebacha

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5721

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. Could the Member -- is it territorial or is it Alberta with the trans-boundary? Who is our contact; what's the question? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

Page 5721

Frieda Martselos Thebacha

Thank you, Madam Chair. When the spill happened, it was kind of a surprise to everybody. Everybody was kind of running around and watching the media thing out there and doing all these other things. I'm just wondering what the protocol is with regards to who is the fist person that the Minister called in the territories with regards to this spill?

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Minister.

March 7th

Page 5721

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes. I guess the first person I called once I found out was I reached out to the Premier. I reached out to her. And then the rest of Cabinet. And then we put something together, and we reached out to the MLAs as well as our Indigenous governments and the community impacted down in the south part. But for the whole process, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5721

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So in this particular spill, the community was already aware of it. So we knew that the Town of Fort Smith had been alerted by an Indigenous government who sent an email to them, and we were aware that they had been -- were already aware. Usually at the time where the Minister would find out if this was a BMC announcement where we were -- or notification, pardon me, where we were told. At the time that we were speaking with the Minister, we would also be in communication with the communities and the Indigenous governments through the Indigenous steering committee to make sure that they were aware and that we were starting to plan the additional monitoring while the Minister's office went about the letting the Premier and others know. In this particular case, the community was already aware of the spill and it was the regional superintendent of the South Slave who alerted Headquarters ENR because he became aware of it, which is not how the process is supposed to work. Alberta's supposed to let us know and notify us through the bilateral management committee. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

Page 5721

Frieda Martselos Thebacha

So, Madam Chair, you know, I'm of the belief that water is life. I -- being in leadership for 14 years as the chief for the Salt River First Nation and also having been involved with the Dene Nation and the Akaitcho territory, water is very significant to life. And I'm just wondering who did you contact at the Town of Fort Smith? Who is the person that was contacted at the Town of Fort Smith. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5721

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes, for that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5721

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the email had gone to the mayor of Fort Smith. We were sent that by the regional superintendent. Because we have done monitoring with the community before and the Indigenous governments, we contacted the folks that work at the water treatment plant because that's where we put sampling equipment in the wintertime. So it was very similar to when Obed spill happened, and we worked with the community to put additional monitoring equipment in. We knew who to contact from that previous work. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

Page 5721

Frieda Martselos Thebacha

So, Madam Chair, so it was done by email and that's the way the email went out to the Indigenous governments also, or? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5721

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5721

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. The communication with the Indigenous governments and the community was done by telephone. One of our water researchers who worked on the Obed work and knew the contacts communicated with them so that we could as quickly as possible get monitoring equipment installed. We also have a water quality monitoring expert that works at ENR in Fort Smith who was instantly engaged to go and meet and start talking to people about how we could get the monitoring equipment in. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5721

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 7th

Page 5722

Frieda Martselos Thebacha

I guess I have a concern about the way the protocol went because I've never been -- you know, I -- I'm not a computer person, and I knew that it had happened through hearsay but I was never approached by the Minister to tell me this actually happened. And I've never been -- he's never come down the hall to even explain to me exactly what happened even though I knew what happened. And I'm also concerned that I contacted one of the Indigenous governments, and they have not had no contact with -- with this whole water spill. And, you know, I'm of the -- you know, when we -- I think that it's extremely important that the protocol is followed. You know, I have a lot of respect for this department. Always did. Always supported it. And we used to take part in the monitoring program ourselves at the Salt River First Nation with people from both the federal and the territorial level people that come in to do the monitoring. And it amazes me that, you know, there's no contact with myself. Not once has anybody come to my office and said this is what's happening now, or anything. I mean, I expect that same respect that I give the Minister. And how hard is it? He's passing by my office every single morning. And, you know, I just want to make sure that the right protocol is followed. I love my community. I sit here and talk about all these different aspects of the community all the time, especially when it affects Indigenous livelihood and especially when it is part of the food security that we are all talking about now because of inflation, because of all the different things that I believe in. And I'm quite -- I'm quite disturbed that the Minister could sit there and say that, and he has not come to my office once in this last week. So there you go. So how much contact is really happening with the actual mayor, the acting chief of the Salt River, and the president of the Fort Smith local Metis Nation. That's what I'd like to know. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 7th

Page 5722

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So first and foremost, I'll take responsibility that I didn't reach out to the MLA. We sent an email. I was dealing with the Alberta government and that there. So I'll take ownership I haven't gone to her. But we did send an email. We sent it to all the Indigenous governments and the municipalities. I'll take the ownership, I haven't gone to her office. I will make sure it happens in the future. But for the other detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 7th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 7th

Page 5722

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the way that ENR found out was we were sent an email where the Town of Fort Smith and Indigenous governments were alerted to this. We did, as the Minister mentioned, send another email that provided more information to the Indigenous governments. We have local staff who have been working with the Indigenous governments and the town to do the additional monitoring. And most certainly if we didn't -- if we knew that the Indigenous government and the town were not aware, we would most certainly have gone and have spoken to them in greater detail but we knew that they were already aware of the spill. And the first priority was to get the monitoring equipment in as soon as possible, working with the community and the Indigenous governments to make sure that we were collecting samples as soon as possible. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 7th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Anything further, Member for Thebacha?

March 7th

Page 5722

Frieda Martselos Thebacha

I don't have any other questions.

March 7th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any other Members wishing to speak to environmental management monitoring and climate change?

Seeing none, please turn to page 83. Environment and Climate Change, environmental management monitoring and climate change, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $20,388,000. Does committee agree?

March 8th

Page 5722

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Committee, we're going to take a short recess.

---SHORT RECESS

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Committee, we will continue on with Environment and Climate Change, policy and strategic planning, beginning on page 87 with information items on page 88 and 90. Questions. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5722

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. I want to turn to page 88, the nature fund protected areas. It's showing zero for 2023-2024. Can I get an explanation? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5722

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. So we didn't have any money in our budget but we're working with the federal government to be able to get that funding backs. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5722

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. And I do want to compliment the Minister and his staff because I know that they're pretty good at leveraging money. But how confident are we that we're going to get any money for this? Because as I understand it, this is the funding that goes to support, you know -- I'm not even going to pronounce all the names right here, but Thaidene Nene and then a couple of other protected areas. These have gone through extensive consultation with Indigenous governments. It's a great kind of co-management approach. There's guardianship, you know, projects and things happening there, some really great stuff. This is about economic diversification, Madam Chair. So how confident are we that we're going to get money because if we don't get federal money, we're going to need to spend some money to continue to do this really good work. And I'm not opposed to that but if we can have the feds do it, that would be helpful. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5722

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

I'll start, and then I'll turn to the deputy minister. How confident I am about the money from the federal government? I would say 99.99 percent that we're going to get it. But for that detail, maybe I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5722

Dr. Kelly

Madam Chair, we have a letter of agreement with ECCC for bridge funding for two years with the possibility for extending another year. But our hope is that in the interim we'll be able to agree to Project Finance for Permanence, or PFP, which we're working on with Indigenous governments at this time that would provide a mechanism for long-term funding for protected areas and conservation areas in the NWT. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5722

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks. 99.99, that's pretty good so I'll take it. Yeah, I'll just try to continue the roll here.

So the contributions for supporting sustainable land use management are declining from 142 to 90. Can I get an explanation, please.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5722

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5722

Dr. Kelly

This is due to a sunset of the funding for the approach to unauthorized and right-spaced occupancy initiative. And we're able to do this work at the level that it's at right now in-house. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5722

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. On the same page, sustainable livelihoods; we seem to be on a downward slide there. Can I get an explanation, please?

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5722

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For the detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5722

Dr. Kelly

This is due to a sunset of some sustainable livelihoods funding that we had to develop the sustainable livelihood and implement the sustainable livelihood's action plan, and we've done the work that was required for that money. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5722

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. So if the strategy and an action plan has been done, when can we expect this funding to actually be increased? You know, we're losing quite a bit just due to CPI, and I don't think things like the community harvester assistance program have been increased for probably decades. So when can we expect to see some more money there. And maybe the Regular MLAs, we're going to work to maybe get some more money there but what's the Minister's thinking on this? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5722

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5722

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. We have done a review of the community harvester assistance program and through that review, we've come up with a new funding formula. There were some concerns that were brought forward about the program, and we have been working to address them. We'd like to implement the new funding formula for a couple of years to see if there's oversubscription. At this particular moment in time, the way the program works is that the money is given to Indigenous governments and Indigenous organizations, and we need to improve the tracking information so that we can understand whether there is that need for additional funding. In the meantime, we've developed a number of other programs that we're putting funding to that were part of the engagement. So for example, trapper training where people in communities said that they need that training, and Take a Family on the Land where folks are mentioning that they want to have that ability to go out on the land and support healing and language transfer at the same time as doing on-the-land activities. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5722

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5722

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, no, thanks for that. Yeah, I know this has been the subject of some ongoing debate and negotiation I guess. I'd say I'm quite confident that this money, at least in sustainable livelihoods, is well used and it actually helps support food security and particularly in our smaller communities. So I'm -- I think we're going to find a way to work together to get that increased. I think that's all I've got on this activity, Madam Chair. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Okay, thank you. Are there any further questions from Members under policy and strategic planning? Member for Nunakput.

March 8th

Page 5723

Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a couple of quick ones. The fur price program, how is that working out because, you know, the fur pricing across the territory and how are they -- are they getting it down? I guess is it still North Bay? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5723

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Kelly.

March 8th

Page 5723

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So one of the things that we have noticed, and especially post-COVID, is there's been a reduction of the number of furs that are being brought in to ENR and going to market. We have a fur forum that will be happening this month where we're bringing in folks from across the territory to have conversations about how we can better support trappers in communities. And there will be some folks there that will be helping us. We're also doing a review of the Genuine Mackenzie Valley Fur Program that should also help with this situation. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Nunakput.

March 8th

Page 5723

Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. No, that sustainable -- like my colleague, Mr. O'Reilly, said that sustainable livelihood, anything that you could do to help, I guess, our on the land, the trappers, take a KID trapping and family initiatives that you could do, and we're hoping to get that increased in this. So no, just hats off to you guys in regards to what you're trying to do and that because this helps a lot of people. You don't realize how much help we're doing on this -- for the fur program. So thank you very much. That's a comment. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any -- Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5723

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just my colleague's questions prompted another question for me. As part of that fur forum, are artisans and artists involved in this discussion, or is it just solely trappers and hunters? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5723

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Dr. Kelly.

March 8th

Page 5723

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So my understanding is that there's a focus on harvesting but there is a conversation about value added. So what could be done with the furs so that there would be the ability to sell them in the Northwest Territories and have a market here, not just having to go to the bigger fur market sales. And we do engage in conversations with ITI about this. They are working on the fur forum with us as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5723

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I'm really glad to hear that and hear that there's the cross-departmental collaboration because I'm assuming that, you know, furs that potentially are not of quality enough to be, say, sold down south would then have an artisan or market value here like you mentioned -- or the department mentioned, regarding just for, like, making earrings and such. So I'm just really happy to hear that.

Is there going to be as part of this forum the discussion around the hide tanning conversation that keeps happening, and I may be sort of somewhat in the wrong location. But, again, it still seems to be all part and parcel of the same thing, and I know that a lot of artisans are talking about having the natural tanned hide. And I'm just wondering if there's a place in this area, or sustainable livelihoods even, where we could potentially be looking again at that natural tanning and promoting that. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5723

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. Yes, it's a separate conversation but it's with ITI, and we're having that conversation and working with them. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5723

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I apologize if this has already been asked. Just in the conservation planning piece, and noting that we are seeing money kind of returning but I'm assuming, again, probably the 2021-2022 had to do with COVID, are we looking to create newer or more protected areas? Is that what this work is being done for? Are we looking to see new parks coming in the future such as Thaidene Nene? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5723

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So that there is part of our Healthy Lands, Healthy People part two. So there is other protected areas that we're talking about. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5723

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Can the Minister or the department give me an idea of which areas those are in. Is that something that there's maybe one in one area, or is it sort of spread across the territory? I guess I'm just trying to get a feel for how much is happening in this area. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5723

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5723

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So a lot of those that are in there are carryovers from the previous version. So Dinaga Wek'ehodi, some of the areas in the Deh Cho for example. There are -- through the PFP conversations, there are conversations about areas of interest that we're committing to engage and talk to folks about. And the creation of Indigenous protected and conserved areas, which are not the same as protected areas and other conservation type designations but they're not all protected areas. Many are Indigenous protected and conserved areas that Indigenous governments are interested in. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5723

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. So then the deputy minister did answer a bit of my next question, but just to confirm then. If they're in an Indigenous protected area, that still allows for Indigenous people to explore and look for mineral development in those areas as well or whatever economic future they would like to see; is that correct, Madam Chair?

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5723

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5723

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you. And perhaps I should have just done one of those. They all seem to be nodding so I think I'm right in that one. So, again, I'll just reiterate what my colleague said around more money in this area would be great. I know we have lots of conversations going on between committee and Cabinet around this. But, yes, anything where we can put more money into the hands of people to go out and be on the land in whatever form or shape they want to be, I think that's great. So more of a comment. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any further comments, questions under policy and strategic planning? Seeing none, please turn to page 87. Environment and Climate Change, policy and strategic planning, operation expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $13,058,000. Does committee agree? Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5723

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'd like to switch. Bring in Dr. Brett Elkin. Or sorry, Blair Chapman.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witness from the Chamber and bring in the new witness.

Thank you. Minister, will you please introduce your witness for the record.

March 8th

Page 5723

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. Blair Chapman. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. All right, so committee, we will now look at regional operations beginning on page 92, with information items on page 93. Questions. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5723

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. So is this just kind of moving over the regional operations that used to be in the Department of Lands and creating a division, or whatever, within the new department; no other changes, is that's what's happening here? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5723

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister because there's a little bit more to the answer. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5723

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Dr. Kelly.

March 8th

Page 5724

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So I mentioned a little bit earlier that Lands and ENR dealt with regional funds differently. This right now is regional operations, and it will have the ENR regional operations in it. But the way that ENR did their main estimates before the regional piece was part of, for example water, or part of wildlife, and we need to do the work through optimization to pull out the funding that is going specifically to the regions and put it in here. So this will ultimately become regional operations for the whole new department but right now for this main estimates, it's the Lands funding and we need to do the work through optimization to add in the ENR regional ops funding, which currently is in the individual sections that we've already been going through. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5724

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay. Thanks, Madam Chair. So that shuffling around of money, is that going to be done then through a supplementary appropriation, or do we get like one of these interactivity fund transfer letters? How is this going to be done as the department and the staff work through this optimization process. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5724

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So it'll be through internal transfers. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5724

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks. And are those -- you know, we get these letters about interfund transfers from some Ministers usually kind of on the capital side, if I remember this correctly. So is there any kind of heads up to Regular MLAs about when it's on the O and M side, and how does the Minister tend to communicate that to the Regular MLAs? And I'm not saying every time you shift a dollar around, but having some kind of plan or, you know, when you figured it out, some communications with us, I think that would be helpful. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5724

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So right now the process would be through the business plans, realizing that this is probably the last time that we're dealing with the budget this Assembly. But it's usually done through the business plan process and then mains. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5724

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks for that. Can I go get some kind of a commitment, though, from the Minister that when the department has figured this stuff out, this optimization stuff, you got some better org chart, you got figured out how you're going to realign some of this stuff, that there could be something wrapped up and sent to the Regular MLAs so we know what happened? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5724

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So the process right now is we are looking at just transferring the money into that from the internal transfers. So as we move, we're transferring the money. So we can do a committee briefing should the Member wish. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5724

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. I think we'll have to put that one in the hopper.

So I understand, like lands has lands use inspectors; water has some water inspectors. Is everybody going to be like one happy family now and cross-appointed, or how is all of this inspection stuff going to happen? Thanks, Madam Chair. And be coordinated. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5724

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5724

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. There's ongoing discussions. There will be cross-appointment most likely with the water resource officers, the lands inspectors, and environmental protection officers. But one of the concerns that has been brought forward by those folks is that we don't want super inspectors or those that also have wildlife forest management, other appointments. We want to make sure that the people are doing things that are related to the jobs that they're doing now. So we are still looking at that, and for sure there will be appointments that make sense for the inspectors and the water resource officers and the lands inspectors will be working very closely together. As for the additional appointments, we'll look at those on a case-by-case basis depending on interest and also needs in the regions. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5724

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks. Yeah, it would probably be covered in the briefing I guess, but I'm interested in that area.

So I look at the, you know, budget line here on page 92, land regional operations, and there is a little bit of a decline there. It's increased from what was spent in 2021-2022. But I'm also cognisant that, you know, at least one diamond mine's going to start closing down. We've got another one that is in closure, Snap Lake. There's a lot at stake for our government because if anything goes off the rails, we're totally liable for that. I just want to get on the record that the Minister believes that we have sufficient resources to properly inspect these diamond mines as they're starting to close so that we don't incur any liabilities? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5724

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes, we do.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5724

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Well, I didn't expect such a short answer. Okay, great. I don't think I have anything further. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any further questions under regional operations? Seeing none, please turn to page 92.

Environment and Climate Change, regional operations, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $7,708,000. Does committee agree?

March 8th

Page 5724

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. We'll now turn to the regulatory assessment and authorizations, beginning on page 95 with information items on page 96 and 97. Questions. Seeing no -- oh, Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5724

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. So we covered some of this, I guess, in the Member's statement and questions earlier today. But where are we at with having any kind of policy work with regard to prevention of public liabilities? I know committees, you know, tabled a report in the House about that, motions were passed. But -- and I guess some regulations may be developed under the Public Land Act but we're still operating under a reclamation policy that was developed by the old Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development that was endorsed by our government at the time of devolution. But, you know -- and I understand this is an area with perhaps some shared jurisdiction with the land and water boards as well, and we had some input into the stuff they'd done, but is there actually ever going to be a policy statement or something from this government about how we try to prevent public liabilities? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5724

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Kelly.

March 8th

Page 5724

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. There's quite a lot of work that's going on right now working with the land and water boards but also internally. The Public Land Act regulations are ongoing, and there's drafting occurring of those at this particular moment in time. We're fully secured, and there's a guidance document that's being drafted based on some advice that's been provided by EY. There's also a risk-based evaluation tool. And I would also point out that in the contaminated sites work plan we've spoken about previously, there's a number of deliverables within that will assist with that issue and concern. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5724

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5724

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks. I don't want to get into a debate here but we're not fully secured on some of these sites. You know, Prairie Creek being an example. We don't hold full financial security because a crazy arrangement that the federal government got into with the company and that it still hasn't been sorted out as far as I know.

All right, I'll ask a more pointed question. Reclaim is a model. It's almost like proprietary developed by some consultants but it's a methodology of calculating reclamation liability based on a whole bunch of rather complicated spreadsheets, unit costs, and so on. That hasn't been updated since 2017, at least that's the model that's on the ENR website and it seems to be publicly available. What work and with escalating, you know, engineering, construction costs, and so on maybe even some of the unit prices might -- we might have some more accurate stuff. But is any work being done to actually update the 2017 model. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So we have worked recently with a consultant to -- on unit costs due to inflation. And my understanding is that this tool was originally a federal tool that came over with devolution, and the federal government is doing some work on it in Nunavut where they use it and we will definitely be involved and hopefully be able to use the amendments that are made to the tool there. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5725

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, okay, thanks for that. I'd just rather not have to wait for the feds to do something that may not happen. But I want to turn to the integrated resource management assistance program. It's contribution money found on page 96, and it's totally flat-lined, actually for everything here. Maybe it went up in 2022-2023 a little bit. But, you know, I guess this government had some sort of a policy or approach where agencies or departments could go to FMB for forced growth and clearly ENR either didn't go or wasn't successful. And I'm not going to ask them which one. But there's no increases here, particularly for ERMA. This is, you know, important stuff where those governments that don't have land rights agreements can actually access funding to allow them to participate in environmental management, decision-making, co-management stuff. So when was the last time this was increased, and why was it -- is it not increased in 2023-2024? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. This is federal funding that comes with the SIMP and audit funding, and we will be engaging with them in a discussion about the next ten years of funding. We had evaluated the program and updated it based on recommendations. And a change that you see here is due to unprocessed contribution agreements and a workshop that was not requiring funding as it was held virtually. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5725

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, okay, I guess I look forward to successful negotiations with the federal government then to increase this because I think it's really essential work that some of these folks do. So I don't think I have anything else, Madam Chair. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any further questions under the regulatory assessment and authorizations? Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5725

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I promise my colleague I just have one short question. Given that the -- oh, and I'm not going to get the terminology right but the Tlicho had asked for the all-season road -- or the road to have the big environmental assessment done on it for the Slave Geologic road. And I'm just wondering -- I know this is a little bit far out. But how -- would something like that, a scale of environmental assessment that size, would that cause us to then need more resources in this area of the department, or does it just -- because it would be sort of federal with the Mackenzie Valley Land and Water Board and whoever would be sort of doing it from the Nunavut side, does that not then -- does that incur any further cost to us as a government? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes, so we don't know -- like, we don't know right yet. But for the participation, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the departments are all participating right now with existing resources and -- but they're just at the stage where they're starting so we'll -- we can't answer the question about any additional funding. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5725

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you. I'm just going to reach a little bit further and ask then, in a normal process like this, does the federal government kick in extra money for such an important sort of nation building and critical mineral project? Do we anticipate that perhaps there would be federal funding that would be coming towards us given that it is quite important to Canada's critical mineral strategy. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. So this is a new process, but we've been encouraging the federal government to give money to the Indigenous governments to do this. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5725

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you. And now I have a whole bunch of questions but I think I'm outside of the scope of what this budget item is about so I will stop there. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any further questions from Members under regulatory assessment and authorizations? Seeing none, please turn to page 95.

Environment and Climate Change, regulatory assessment and authorizations, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $10,758,000. Does committee agree?

March 8th

Page 5725

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. We will now go to wildlife and forest management on page 99 with information items on page 100 to 102. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. I'd like to switch up our witnesses, please. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witness from the Chamber and bring in our new witness. Minister, please introduce your witness.

March 8th

Page 5725

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

This time I'll get it right. Dr. Brett Elkin. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Welcome. Okay, Member for Kam Lake.

March 8th

Page 5725

Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm looking at the forest management line item which has about a $5 million decrease in that line item. I'm wondering if the Minister can speak to what areas of forest management are receiving that decrease given that it's got kind of the forest and trees and all that side of it and it also has the fire side. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So, again, it depends on the fire year how we allocate or use the money. But for further detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Okay. Deputy minister, Dr. Kelly.

March 8th

Page 5725

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So we have a base budget for fighting fire in the NWT, and then we need -- if we have to go over that budget, we have to get supplementary funding for it. So depending on the fire year, the cost for things like aircraft or for fire crews -- and last year, for example, extending the fire season, you'll see that those numbers fluctuate. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

March 8th

Page 5725

Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm wondering if -- I understand the piece about coming back for a sup, but I'm wondering what is -- is this kind of the standard base because it is different from the main estimates from last year even, and if we know that we are having more fires and a longer season why that wouldn't be maintained? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. There was a forced growth submission that provides additional funding to the base budget for the main estimates which is why it looks a little bit different. But the actuals and the revised estimates are showing those changes due to sups or additional fire expenses. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

March 8th

Page 5725

Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm wondering if the Minister can inform the House where the $2 million in chargebacks is coming from further down the page. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5725

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5725

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So thank you. It's a mutual -- I guess it's called MARS, and it's a mutual agreement that we have. It's with other jurisdictions across Canada.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

March 8th

Page 5726

Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, my next question is in regards to both fees and payments for materials and supplies. There's a significant amount of fluctuation in both of those line items, and I'm wondering if there is a theme in either that speaks to what causes this fluctuation and if there's something -- if there's a reason for that? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister, Dr. Kelly.

March 8th

Page 5726

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So for fees and payments, there's increased testing of samples, GIS wildlife tracking, and fire management, membership fees. There's also an increase due to some of the federal funding that we receive from barren-ground caribou.

For the materials and supplies, this is due to a change in accounting treatment and so is the $2 million that we just talked about with MARS. So previously these things used to be in fund three, and they've been moved to fund one. And that's why you're seeing some of these wonky changes over time for the years. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

March 8th

Page 5726

Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. So would it be since they've been changed to fund three, is that something that we would expect to see stabilize over years to come, or are we still expecting to see quite a bit of fluctuation and movement in those line items? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

It should stabilize. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any further questions under wildlife and forest management? Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5726

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. So there's some changes to the number of positions found on 102 between last year and -- or the current year and what's proposed for next year. Can I just get a quick summary of what those changes are? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So there were four positions that we're sunsetting due to the section 11 agreement but there's been a year of interim funding that has been provided by the federal government while we come to an agreement for -- a longer term agreement on caribou with the federal government. And then as I mentioned there was a forced growth submission that we were successful for that has allowed us to have a fire technician, a wild land fire crew and two fire crews, as well as a wildfire training technician. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5726

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Is there any new funding in here for implementation of the Forest Act? I know the Minister's -- we got the "what we heard" report tabled in the House earlier today, and there's probably going to be some significant changes. Is there any money in here to implement that new legislation if and when it passes? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

No, we're using the money within but we still need to do the regulations as well. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5726

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay. Yeah, I'm a bit worried about that because I think we're going to be taking on some significant new things with that legislation when it's brought forward. And so what would be the process of identifying if there's new needs and would that be brought in through a supplementary appropriation? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So as we develop our regs, we would find out what it is and it would have to be through a sup. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5726

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, okay, well I'll just cool my horses until that point. But I want to turn over to the contributions page on 100. There's a bunch of money going out; maybe there's some money coming in as well with regard to work on caribou. And where are we at with habitat protection. You know, we've told harvesters they can't harvest and some of them have done that voluntarily. You know, we've gone out, tried to get more wolves either by, you know, paying harvesters a little more or shooting them from helicopters. I don't know what else we can do for caribou other than protect habitat at this point, which we haven't done. So where are we at with habitat protection and is any of this money in here, in this part of the budget, for identification of key habitat and, more importantly, protection of that habitat? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

Dr. Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. So we do provide funding support and information to Indigenous governments and Indigenous organizations, and important areas for caribou have been identified by the Tlicho government, the Athabasca Denesuline, North Slave Metis Alliance, and the NWT Metis Nation. We're committed to supporting the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, Lutselk'e Dene First Nation, and Deninu Kue to do similar work. Two workshops were held in 2022 to share information on legal tools for protection and a recent technical analysis using barren-ground caribou collar data helped to identify and prioritize water crossings. The workshop also provided an opportunity to discuss next steps, and there is interest in identifying barren-ground caribou habitat protection in Healthy Lands, Healthy People for conservation in the NWT. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5726

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Are we likely to see even one square centimetre actually protected of critical caribou habitat within the lifetime of this Assembly? New habitat protection. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. Yes, so we're working with the Indigenous governments to prioritize the areas that they're talking about. Again, it's a collaborative approach with our Indigenous governments. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5726

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, look, I recognize that this is complicated with being sure everybody's at the table, but are we likely to see any habitat actually protected, you know, by the end of this Assembly? New habitats identified and, more importantly, protected by the end of this Assembly. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5726

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. It'll be dependent on the outcomes of our meetings. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5726

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, okay, thanks for that. Yeah, I have a funny feeling that this is going to become one of the key issues that's part of the regional study. So I don't think I have anything else. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5726

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 8th

Page 5727

Frieda Martselos Thebacha

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to express my gratitude for the people at the wildlife and forest management, the capable staff there. And it's a territorial fire centre. The staff there are awesome, and they have really incredible working relationships with the Indigenous governments. And same with the ENR staff that are on the highway and throughout with Lands, I -- you know, I just want to ensure that the Minister knows that I'm very grateful for the staff at the local level, that -- whether they be territorial or at the regional level, it's -- you go into those offices and the help that I got, even when I was chief, with many things that happened in the community with different events and putting up teepees at certain times and everything else, I just want to make sure that he understands that I am very grateful for that, for those departments of his. You know, the only thing we have to work on is a little bit of the protocol when it comes to certain things that happen. And, you know, I love my community and I love the people that are there, and that will never change. And I appreciate his department and I appreciate the staff that work for him, especially the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Are there any further questions, comments under wildlife and forest management? Seeing none, please turn to page 99.

Environment and Climate Change, wildlife and forest management, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $60,608,000. Does committee agree?

March 8th

Page 5727

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. There are additional information items on page 103 to 114. Are there any questions from Members on those? Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5727

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. The environment fund on page 103 -- and I had some involvement with the waste reduction and recovery advisory committee for a number of years. There was a lot of concerns raised about the need maybe for a second depot in Yellowknife. You folks, I think, went out and looked at this. Where are we at with having a second depot in Yellowknife? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5727

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. Yes, so we're working with the City of Yellowknife to identify a spot, and there will have to be some zoning changes as well. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5727

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. Any sense of timing on this? I think the last time I raised it with the Minister it was like kind of going to be sometime late last year that there might be something happening, and here we are about five or six months later and I don't think anything's happened. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5727

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. So we were trying to find the location and that's one of our priorities there, working with the city on that, and we're hoping by the early fall 2023. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5727

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Over on page 106, Inuvialuit Water Board, zero. What's happening? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5727

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

For that detail, I'll turn to the deputy minister. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5727

Dr. Kelly

(audio) before the main estimates so it's not included in here. This was something that committee brought up as being confusing, and we're working with finance to see how we can address it in future main estimates. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Sorry, you started talking before the light, so I couldn't hear the first part that something wasn't approved or?

March 8th

Page 5727

Dr. Kelly

Sorry, Madam Chair. The budget has not been approved yet when the main estimates was developed. So the budget is still there but it hadn't been approved so it's not in the document itself. This was something that came up that committee brought up as being confusing, and we're working with finance to see how we can address that for future main estimates. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5727

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Can I assume, then, that we've actually got the money in the bank for this? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5727

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Yes.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5727

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. I love those answers. Over to one of my favourites, the Northwest Territories Surface Rights Board, can I just get confirmation from the Minister that they haven't dealt with any disputes in the last year? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5727

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

The Member is correct.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5727

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. These folks haven't dealt with a dispute their entire existence, and this was never really needed. This could have been handled through the existing dispute resolution mechanisms and with the land rights agreements. Look, this is not a co-management approach. The Minister appoints everybody here. I think the Indigenous governments don't get a say in this. This is ancient legislation that we inherited from the federal government. We've reviewed a good part of the other resource management legislation that we have in place. When is the Minister going to review this legislation and the board? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5727

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you. So it meets Canada's obligations and they provide the funding, so we don't have any visions of dealing with it presently. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5727

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. It may be federal money but this is our legislation, and I think we -- last time I think I raised this, the Minister said, well -- or maybe it was the former -- or whatever -- deputy minister that raised this, that maybe there might be some opportunity to review this through some other renewal process or government renewal initiative or some other regular renewal or review provisions that the GNWT has. So we're just going to let this thing sit here, continue to spend money, and not do any work. I just don't get it. And there doesn't seem to be any interest on the part of this Cabinet to actually review this even though it's our legislation. Is there any process by which this can be reviewed? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5727

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

So presently we have other priorities and that's where we're focusing our energy and time on. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5727

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. I kind of feel like I should be a zombie and I'm going to come back and continue to hammer on this one because this should never have happened in the first place. It's not needed. It doesn't do any work. And it's not a co-management approach. It just doesn't fit with the way that we do other co-management here in the Northwest Territories. I don't know what else I can say, Madam Chair. This needs to be reviewed. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any further questions under the information items from Members? Seeing none, thank you, Members. Please return now to the departmental summary found on page 73. Review -- with information items on page 74. Any questions? Seeing none, committee, I will now call the department summary.

Environment and Climate Change, operations expenditure, total department, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $124,309,000. Does committee agree?

March 8th

Page 5727

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

Page 5727

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Mr. O'Reilly.

Committee Motion 371-19(2): Tabled Document 813-19(2): 2023-2024 Main Estimates - Legislative Assembly - Deferral of Department (Page 5), Carried

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