Committee Motion 377-19(2): Committee Report 45-19(2): Standing Committee on Government Operations Report on Bill 60: An Act to Amend the Petroleum Products and Carbon Tax Act - Government Response to Recommendations, Carried

In the Legislative Assembly on March 8th, 2023. See this topic in context.

Committee Motion 377-19(2): Committee Report 45-19(2): Standing Committee on Government Operations Report on Bill 60: An Act to Amend the Petroleum Products and Carbon Tax Act - Government Response to Recommendations, Carried
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 8th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that this committee recommends the Government of the Northwest Territories provide a response to this report within 120 days. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th, 2023

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion.

March 8th

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Some Hon. Members

Question.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you, committee. Do you agree that you've concluded consideration of Committee Report 45-19(2)?

March 8th

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, committee. We have concluded consideration of Committee Report 45-19(2), Standing Committee on Government Operations Report on Bill 60: An Act to Amend the Petroleum Products and Carbon Tax Act. We'll take a short recess.

---SHORT RECESS

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

I now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we've agreed to consider Tabled Document 813-19(2), 2023-2024 Main Estimates. We will now consider the Department of Infrastructure. Does the Minister of Infrastructure have any opening remarks?

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. I am here to present the 2023-2024 Main Estimates for Department of Infrastructure. Overall, the department's estimates propose an increase of $16.4 million or 5.6 percent over the 2022-2023 Main Estimates. These estimates support the mandate objectives for the Department of Infrastructure while continuing to meet the GNWT's fiscal objectives to prioritize responsible and strategic spending.

Highlights of these proposed estimates include:

Forced Growth increases of $1.8 million, that include $821,000 for increased costs to winter and all-season road operations, $364,000 for mobile equipment fuel, $208,000 for regional airport contract services, and $381,000 for DIIMS software licenses, maintenance, and support;
New initiatives of $1.9 million include funding for the updated energy action plan, and electric vehicle charging stations funded through the Zero Emissions Vehicles Infrastructure Plan;
The estimates also include total sunsets of $1.3 million that is primarily associated with the Low Carbon Economy Leadership Fund, which is currently in the process of being renewed;
Amortization estimates increased by $4.1 million to reflect new assets coming into service; and,
Finally, a budget increase of $10.4 million due to a required change of accounting treatment for costs related to agreements previously classified as projects on behalf of third parties to comply with the Auditor General and accounting standards.

Notably, these estimates also include the inter-department transfer of $14 million from the Department of Finance to support annual service payments for the Tlicho Highway. This change is not reflected in the proposed increase, as prior year amounts have been restated for comparability.

These estimates support the priorities of the 19th Assembly and the vision of Budget 2023 by:

Continuing the work in expanding the reach of energy conservation and efficiency initiatives guided by the 2030 Energy Strategy, continued core and supplementary program funding to the Arctic Energy Alliance, and the release of the most recent energy action plan with new rebates and grants;
Ensuring government procurement and contracting maximizes benefits to residents and businesses, through collaborative work with other GNWT departments in reviewing procurement policies and practices and exercising procurement processes that align best with the interest of NWT businesses and residents;
Continuing to increase regional decision-making and authority through ongoing engagement with our Indigenous partners; and,
Maintaining our annual investment of $1.5 million of financial contributions to communities through the Community Access Program to improve local transportation infrastructure for access roads, winter roads, ice roads, marine facilities, and trails.

That concludes my opening remarks. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Do you wish to bring witnesses into the House?

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Yes.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber.

Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, to my left I have my deputy minister for asset management, David Moore. And to my right I have my director Connie Lee, director for corporate services.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Does committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?

March 8th

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Committee, we will defer the departmental summary and review the estimates by activity summary beginning with asset management, starting on page 258, with information items on page 259 and 260. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 8th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I promise I'm only going to try and only talk for about ten minutes this whole main estimates review, and all of it's going to be about asset management. And I know this section's called asset management but I guess more in regards to all of the assets in the department.

Last -- earlier in this session, the Minister gave an update on road construction and she said there was, you know, $45 million improving our highways and bridges and 160 kilometres of chip seal. And as she was giving that statement, I tried to look through previous, you know, main estimates and the capital budget and whatever documents existed to get a sense of what that number meant. You know, it's kind of a completely meaningless number, I think, in context without any context. You know, the department's budget is over $300 million. We spend hundreds of millions on capital for roads and bridges so it's just hard to know whether $45 million is any amount of money. And, you know, I get the department wants to kind of celebrate its work, but it would be helpful if there was some sort of public information on how much we spend each year, what is the state of our roads and bridges, how often they're inspected, you know, and so you could look back in time to see whether we're spending more or less or whether maybe we did far more than 160 kilometres every single year before that. But that's not currently public information. Many jurisdictions publish -- their departments of transportation publish some sort of highways report, roads and bridges report. It just kind of summarizes the quality of everything and the cost of everything and the work that's going on. I know the department obviously has all that information, but is publishing it in some sort of form that's coherent something the Minister would be willing to do? Thank you

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister of Infrastructure.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, you know, the Member's speaking to one of the comments I made in earlier session and right now the Department of Infrastructure is working on what we're calling a dashboard. So the dashboard is kind of a big picture of all the different highways, you know, Highway No. 1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, all the different highways, and to be able to have a picture of what it is we're doing. And if you can, Madam Chair, ask David -- Mr. Moore to speak a little bit more about this because I think this is really exciting, and I think that's what the Member was asking us to do. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Moore.

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Moore

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just reinforcing the Minister's note that, yes, we are indeed working towards the development of a dashboard that will look at all our assets, including our horizontal assets or our highways and our bridges as, you know, it's very important to understand the condition of those assets and how they're changing over time as well as the investments that we're making in those assets. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 8th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, you know, I am probably very excited for this dashboard, and I guess it's a bit of a wait and see what's in it. Yeah, and I think there's a bit of a tension that goes on in that, you know, we as Regular MLAs in confidence get the kind of long-term capital planning and the needs assessment and, you know, I have requested it, you know confidentially, to see, you know, the asset management planning that we do and the deferred maintenance but none of that is public, you know, and there's this tension, I think, of we don't want to necessarily show everyone how bad our deferred maintenance is and that we're not funding it. But I think we got to make some step in the middle to show, okay, this is all the things we should be doing but we're not actually going to do it. So in terms of a question there, can the Minister just provide us an update when they expect that dashboard to be complete? Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we're aiming at the fall. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 8th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. And then I guess there is, you know, there is -- to me, there's the goal of reporting on the quality and condition and all the work that we're doing with all the assets everywhere that we own, the multi-billion dollars worth, and then I'm wondering if the dashboard would speak to kind of tracking ongoing infrastructure projects or whether that would be another initiative. What I picture is, you know, we often pass these capital estimates and they -- and some community says they're going to get a small local project done and then it gets carried over and carried over and it never actually gets complete. And, you know, unless you're really diligent in following up, you don't actually know what's being complete. So is -- would the dashboard speak to kind of tracking how ongoing construction is going with regards to infrastructure projects? Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to get Mr. Moore to speak a little bit more about some of the details because I think that's very technical. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Moore.

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Moore

Thank you, Madam Chair. The vision of the dashboard is, as the Member mentioned, to look at the status of our assets over time and to monitor it over time, looking at the state of all vertical and horizontal assets in the territory. We're also working with other GNWT departments in this regard.

With respect to looking at projects themselves, there's a couple of avenues there. We work with our partners in the Department of Finance on the annual IAP, the infrastructure acquisition plan, which is posted on the Department of Finance website. We also do an industry day, a session each year, which details the projects on a year by year basis. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 8th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess a comment, you know, is that perhaps the department could look into a final way of confirming when something is actually complete. There's no actual place you can find "oh, this project got finished" unless some sort of press release is done because it falls off the infrastructure acquisition plan and it's not on the capital budget anymore, we just assume it's done. But as we know, there are plenty of buildings that are not done or years later, you know, not occupied or various reasons for not being done. So can the department look at some sort of way of reporting what finally got finished? Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'll take that as a comment. But, I mean, I'm hoping that the dashboard will be able to collect some of that information as well. Thanks.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

All right. Are there any further questions to asset management? Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to ask -- I appreciate the questions my colleague was asking around sort of getting a better handle on reporting and where our assets are at. I remember at one point trying to ask for a lessons learned presentation at NAPEG on the Deh Cho Bridge and everybody being like oh my god, we can't talk about that. So I do hope there is a move towards, you know, more transparency because there isn't a way to learn if we don't actually look at what -- and that was -- sorry, that was way back in my earlier life, not this Assembly.

So my question here is that I have some concern, and this information could be given to me after the fact, about the level of expertise in the department these days. I am concerned about whether or not we have the adequate number of engineers and technical design and project managers that we really need for the execution of a lot of our projects. Particularly asset management is a struggle, people with building experience, etcetera. And I do recognize that the ADM himself is an engineer although I do know that your background -- or his background is more with governments versus project leads. So I just -- I do have some concerns there. And could the department or the Minister speak to where we're sitting at respect to the vacancies or the filling of those types of technical positions but also what's being done -- I'm also concerned about the retirement of some of our technical staff. So if there could be some information provided there, that would be great. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, David is the ADM for asset management which means he's in charge of all the engineers in the department. So if I can just turn it over to Mr. Moore.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Moore.

March 8th

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Moore

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would completely agree that recruitment and retention of professionals, engineers and architects specifically, is a challenge nationally and in the GNWT. We have positions posted, for example, that are open trying to get applicants as do other jurisdictions. That being said, we have an amazing team of highly qualified professionals in all aspects of asset management. And we also work with private sector very closely and academia leveraging that expertise both within the GNWT and nationally and internationally. So I think we are well represented. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. And, yeah, I've definitely had the opportunity to work with several of the technical people in the department, and I do agree. I just know that yeah, as stated it is competitive and one where we wear a lot of liability. I think it's an area where you can't just sort of say it's the general issue with, you know, recruitment because you can't just put warm bodies into these positions. So it is something that I think the department really needs to start getting a grasp on. And given also too that I'm not sure where we're at from the recruitment or sort of the graduation rates of engineers, but I don't believe things are really picking up that we're really graduating a lot more engineers in Canada. So I think that's just one that I'll leave but follow up later.

When the -- I hear the deputy -- or sorry, the assistant deputy minister talking about working with the private sector, and I note that there are $3.328 million of contract services that will be coming up, I have a couple concerns there. I think that the GNWT in all departments has a tendency to find one consultant at a time that they really like, and it's much easier to generally deal with one company so therefore there isn't always an impetus to break those contracts up or to find other people that could do them. When I hear and have raised concerns in this House about per diems that are paid on some of these projects by these consultants, and I've not had any resolution to it in three years, and it's the government's favourite consultant for all of their technical design work, I have a lot of concern there. I believe there's an issue with contracting out of this department towards people that are friends of high-up bureaucrats as well as Ministers in this Cabinet. And so I really don't feel there has been a good handle on ensuring that procurement here has been fair and is being done through proper free trade routes.

That being said, I would like an answer as to why they've signed off on a $70 per diem for workers of the Northwest Territories on specifically projects in Inuvik and flood management, which I know is not this department. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Member, I'll just get you to --

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

(audio) dollar per diems on their projects. So it is this.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

(audio) Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we'll have to take this back and just have a look and perhaps provide the Member with an explanation. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Member.

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, I'd appreciate that. Can the Minister or the department speak to whether or not there are any health and safety or project manager positions within this department or this area of the budget? Thank you.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we -- I do have a human resource summary here and it just kind of speaks to some of -- some of the employees. I'm going to ask Mr. Moore to speak a little bit more about -- a little more details. Thanks.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Moore.

March 8th

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Moore

Thank you, Madam Chair. Most definitely asset management has a number of project managers on staff. In the transportation, for example, we have staff on site on projects and supporting all the projects in the transportation sector. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Maybe -- sorry, I got a frog in my throat. But I asked about health and safety project manager, health and safety officers for the projects. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Moore. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we do have a health and safety coordinator within the department. Thanks.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Is that position here under, say, design and technical services; does it work with the groups, or is that position located with this group? Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, no, that position doesn't fit within asset management. It's more of in the program service area. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. But does not design and technical services, is that not the group that then works with projects and ensures the project execution? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'll get Mr. Moore to speak to it.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Mr. Moore.

March 8th

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Moore

Thank you, Madam Chair. We actually work with contractors responsible for their projects on a project by project basis. Projects have health and safety plans applied to them. As a department, as the Minister mentioned, we have a health and safety coordinator to the department at the OSH level. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. So as part of the contract services, are contractors required to submit their health and safety plans for projects ahead of the project or as part of the project bid? Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, as part of the project.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Does the department actually sign off on the project plan? Do they -- for example, do they review it and check it for any deficiencies? Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, yes. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. What is the policy or the procedure? Is there a standard operating procedure for reviewing health and safety plans? The reason I ask is that our current Prohibition Creek contract has now had its third safety issue, two vehicle incidents plus the fibre optic cut back in January, and I'd just like to know if the department had signed off on their health and safety plan prior to that project. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we do -- we did review it. I'm going to ask Mr. Moore to just speak a little more detail about that. Thanks.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Moore.

March 8th

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Moore

Thank you, Madam Chair. As the Minister mentioned, our department does review those plans. We do not approve them. That's in the -- under the auspices of the contractor. With respect to that specific project, yes, there were two incidences and they are currently under investigation with our department. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

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Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. So given that there has been incidents, it would seem to me that not approving plans and just looking at them is leaving the government open to a liability here. Ultimately we are responsible for the projects that we have on the ground and the people that are working on them. And when we go ahead and just not ensure that that's being done, I would suggest that that's actually a failure on our part to ensure the safety of our people.

Madam Chair, can I just get a question on the decrease of the transportation costs from the actuals of 2021-2022 to the main estimates coming up? I believe it's about just under a million dollars. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'll get Ms. Lee to speak to it.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Ms. Lee.

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Lee

Just because under actuals for the 2021-2022 fiscal year, there is an amortization cost that was coded to asset management and that was actually in error. The budget side of it is with regional operations so you'll see a corresponding surplus on that side.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. All right, are there any further questions under asset management? Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. I too want to thank the Minister and staff for the commitment on an asset management dashboard. I think we've raised that issue before in the House and look forward to seeing what that looks like.

I'd understood that there was going to be some changes to the standards that we use for -- well, the amount of chip sealing we could do. Is this the right place to ask about this? And I think something about bridge inspections as well, is this the right place to ask? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Yes. Yes.

March 8th

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Perfect, thanks, I'm ready to go. So I think that we're -- how many kilometres of chip seal are we doing this year?

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we're doing 150 kilometres. Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. How many did we do last year, or how much -- (audio). Thank you.

March 8th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, every year we try and target about the same amount. So last year we did 150, and we're planning to do another 150. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay. Yeah, that's kind of not what my notes show but we're doing the same number, that's great. If we're not, I guess I'd like to understand why. Maybe I'll just ask if the Minister could double check. Thanks.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, you know, I answered very quick. I do want to just clarify that we did about 200 before but because of inflation, we've had to reduce the number of chip seal we're doing. So now it's about 150. Thank you.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. That's what I'm kind of concerned about, is the -- you know, okay, over the last three or four years, my wife and I we've driven a lot of the highways in the Northwest Territories. The Liard Highway, terrible condition. Terrible condition. The road to Fort Simpson, there's this stretch after the pavement ends to maybe around where the campground is there at Sambaa Deh, terrible condition, unbelievable. We almost went off the road when we were going out there for a committee meeting a couple or three or four years ago. I don't know what to say, Madam Chair, but we can't even maintain the roads we got let alone build new ones anywhere. And when I see this I know, you know, maybe we can only afford to do a bit more but we can't even maintain the roads that we got. So how are we going to, you know, make sure our residents are safe, try to attract tourists, when our roads are in really bad condition? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member. Minister.

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, every year, as I mentioned, we do a little bit of work on the highway to do -- on each of our highways. And, you know, the Member mentioned that Highway No. 7 was bad, the Liard Highway. This year we're looking at the rehabilitation work, the embankment widening. So I mean, this is something that we are doing. We're hoping to have that done August of 2023. That's just one specific highway, Madam Chair. And I'm not going to use the Member's time because I'm sure he's got lots of other great questions as well. So that's one example. But we are doing work on the other highways as well. Thanks.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, no, thanks. I think there's also something around the cycle that we use for road and culvert inspection or replacement. There was some changes there. Could the Minister speak to that as well? Thank you.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'll ask Mr. Moore to speak to what's our plans in order to get some of these road work done.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Moore.

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Moore

Thank you, Madam Chair. All our bridges and structures, including major culverts, are inspected on a three-year cycle throughout the territory. All our linear infrastructure, so all our roads and side roads, are inspected on a regular basis, utilizing a number of aspects, including private sector. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

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Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, I guess I -- I don't know what else to say other than I've lived here 35 years -- 37, maybe 38 years now, and I will say I think the condition of some of our highways is deteriorating. And if we can't maintain the roads that we have, I'm just really worried about putting more money into roads, period but that's more of a philosophical discussion. So I really want to get this asset management stuff in place so that the public can see what our cycles are, how we stack up, you know, one highway against another. But I think it also gives us a way to benchmark ourselves against other jurisdictions, which is a really important thing for us to do. If we want to make sure we have safe highways for our residents and, you know, attract tourists, we just got to do a better job. Thanks, Madam Chair. I don't think I have anything else.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. I didn't hear any questions there so just take that as a comment. Are there any further questions under asset management? Seeing none, Members, please turn to page 258.

Infrastructure, asset management, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $18,146,000. Does committee agree?

March 8th

Page 5784

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. We will now turn to corporate management, beginning on page 262 with information items on page 263. Questions.

Seeing no questions, please turn to page 262 -- oh, Member for Frame Lake.

Sergeant-at-arms, please switch the witnesses. Thank you. Minister, will you please introduce your witness for the record.

March 8th

Page 5784

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, to my left I have my deputy minister Steve Loutitt.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Welcome, Mr. Loutitt. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5784

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. I guess I would -- I think this is probably as good a place as any to ask, but where are we at with the government renewal initiative for this department? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5784

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we've completed phase one. The overall plan is led by Department of Finance.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5784

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. So for those that are listening, what's phase one? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5784

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'll ask Ms. Lee to provide a little bit more of the information. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Ms. Lee.

March 8th

Page 5784

Lee

Thank you, Madam Chair. So phase one is having our interviews and our inventory of programs being completed and documented. So we have had that work done with the GRI staff with the Department of Finance, and we have completed that as scheduled. And I believe that there is a schedule online that presents our status. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5784

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks. So this was kind of a new department that was created in the last Assembly by jamming together public works and Department of Transportation -- public works and government services and Department of Transportation. Has there ever been kind of like any kind of review done of that merger and kind of where we've ended up and how we could look at maybe reorganizing parts of the department, making it more efficient and effective? Part of my difficulty in going through this department is we get these big activities that are so vague and amorphous that I don't even know where I'm supposed to ask questions. So anyways, has that kind of, you know, review been done of what, you know, lessons learned from jamming together these two departments, and where we're going? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5784

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, yes, that's correct. I mean, the previous governments have amalgamated public works and Department of Transportation. So we as a department are looking at the re-org review. And if I can ask my deputy minister to speak a little bit more about this, the review. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister Loutitt.

March 8th

Page 5784

Loutitt

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister's correct. We're in the process of redoing or reviewing and doing a re-org review of all of our services, and we're looking at how projects flow through the department from a value stream analysis standpoint so that we're not double tracking, and we're also making sure that we're -- the processes are clear and concise. And as the Member noted, very clear there for people to understand where they are. So if a project comes in as a no show plan and how it comes out from final project through the licensing and permitting through the design and technical portion and then for the execution of the project. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5784

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, okay, that sounds quite interesting. And if I can get the Minister to tell us when that work is going to be finished and whether a draft with a report could be shared with standing committee? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5784

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to ask the deputy minister to speak about a little more on the timelines to be able to see where we're at with this. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Deputy minister.

March 8th

Page 5784

Loutitt

Thank you, Madam Chair. The process right now, we don't have a defined timeline; however, we have just recently allocated resources specifically to this process because it is something that -- this was actually conceptually supposed to take place one year or two after we amalgamated and looking at where we can gain those efficiencies. And doing so off the corner of people's desks wasn't feasible so we are opening resources on. We anticipate that within the next probably nine months we should have this process complete. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5784

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5785

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. I guess I can't probably ask whether that can be shared with the standing committee. But if there's some terms of reference or some kind of summary of what's taking place and a timeline, can the Minister commit to share that with standing committee? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5785

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, yes, I don't see why not to share with the standing committee. We'll just have to be able to look and find more information on what exactly the Member would like us to share, a little more detail so we can definitely have that discussion and set some time up to be able to make time with committee. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5785

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. So just -- I can't speak on behalf of committee, we haven't talked about this, but I think probably Regular Members would find it helpful to at least have the terms of reference or a statement of work or some summary of what's going done along with the timeline so, you know, we understand what's underway now. And if that's, you know, some kind of information in a letter -- I don't want to ask for a briefing but some more detailed information about what's being done, if that could be shared, that would be great. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Okay. Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5785

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, we're all busy doing committee meetings and if the Member doesn't feel like this is -- warrants committee time, then we can perhaps provide an update through a letter or some sort of format. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5785

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. It's not that I don't want to hear my friends from Infrastructure, I just can't talk on behalf of the committee because we haven't even talked about it. So a letter with some information, and then I think committee could look at it and decide whether we want to, you know, get a briefing or something. But, no, I appreciate the Minister offering to share some more information on that with us, that's great. And I don't think I have any further questions on this activity. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Corporate management, are there any further questions? Seeing none, please turn to page 262.

Infrastructure, corporate management, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $7,989,000. Does committee agree?

March 8th

Page 5785

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, committee. We will now turn to energy and strategic initiatives, beginning on page 265, with information items on page 266 to 269. Questions. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5785

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Well, let's -- sorry?

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Sergeant-at-arms, please switch out the witnesses.

Although we know our witness, we'll ask you to introduce for the record.

March 8th

Page 5785

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, and I appreciate the Members' patience while we flow each of the different assistant deputy ministers in. I have with me Robert Jenkins, who is the assistant deputy minister for energy and strategic initiatives. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Welcome. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5785

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. On page 265, the energy line, it kind of bounces all over the place, you know, as low as $9 million -- or about $10 million, as high as almost $20 million. Can someone explain to me what is happening here? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5785

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, as I mentioned in my opening marks, that we did have some funds that are moving back and forth between the energy section. I'm going to ask Ms. Lee to be able to speak a little bit more about the transactions. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Ms. Lee.

March 8th

Page 5785

Lee

Thank you, Madam Chair. So there is some fluctuation, as the Member has stated, on the energy line there. And the main driver for that actually is updates to the appropriations for our LCELF program so our LCELF program being funded by the federal government. We do have to ensure that we have access and appropriations to utilize the LCELF funding. And because it is driven by application base, there are times where we would need to move the flow of funds in order to continue accessing that money. So we do see some fluctuations but really it is to maximize our ability to utilize LCELF funding. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Madam Chair. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5785

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. So if I wasn't confused before, I am now. I know that LCELF is Low Carbon Economy Leadership fund. It's federal money. So what's the issue here - we can't get the projects out the door? They keep changing the program? What's the issue here? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5785

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to start by just saying that this is an application base. And I'm going to ask Mr. Jenkins to just speak a little bit more about the Member's question. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Jenkins.

March 8th

Page 5785

Jenkins

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the Low Carbon Economy Leadership Fund, so that's a fund that started back in 2018. It was originally for four years for $31.2 million. It was extended for an additional two years. And as the Minister mentioned, it's largely an application-based program for energy efficiency for buildings and other things. Really, uptake has been a challenge over the past few years and some of the variations in budgets, as the Member mentioned, is moving funds forward so we have the ability to utilize those funds and move them forward three years. And the program was extended for an additional two years but the amount of money from the federal government did not increase. So it was carried forward to those additional years. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5785

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, I think have some vague memory of some of this. There's kind of like four pots of money or something. And so is the -- I think we got the money. Is this, like, application-based by third parties and is it an issue of us -- you know, I don't know, maybe a combination of things - COVID, supply chain stuff, people weren't applying, or do we need to better communicate what the parameters are of this, and maybe evaluate submissions faster? I'm just trying to understand where -- what the block or the barriers are. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5785

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, some of it is application-based and, you know, we've done more outreach to be able to look at the program. And I'm going to ask Mr. Jenkins if he can speak a little bit more to that. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Jenkins.

March 8th

Page 5785

Jenkins

Thank you, Madam Chair. So there is six streams under the Low Carbon Economy Leadership Fund. And some of those are things like energy efficiency upgrades for public housing right through to things like active carbon sequestration in forestry. So there's different programs there. But largely there is a -- it is an application-based program. And we've been doing more outreach. We've been sort of cold calling different places. We've seen an uptake in some of the GHG grant programs for buildings and industry, and we've had some announcements now. We've got a number of projects that were announced last year on that. But it is an application-based program. We've been working hard to try to have people apply but at the end of the day, it has been a challenge through COVID. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Yes, thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5785

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I just want to note too that this program, there needs to be application -- or applicant input as well to be able to contribute to this program. So, I mean, yes, we do offset it but, I mean, anybody applying to the program needs to be able to be a contributor as well. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5785

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5785

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, okay, thanks for that. Maybe we should just give a lot of that money to Arctic Energy Alliance and they can get it out the door more quickly.

But I do have another area I want to explore, Madam Chair, and that's the federal government, federal minister of northern affairs recently announced that a regional study would proceed for the area between Yellowknife and the border with Nunavut. And I'm just wondering what implication that has for any work that might be done by the department on -- I think it's called the Tibbitt to Lockhart Road, or whatever you're calling it these days. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5786

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, for that project, we are still continuing to gather engineering and environmental information to be able to support the application. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5786

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. How much is being budgeted for that in 2023-2024? Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5786

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we're looking at around $9 million. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5786

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks. How much of that's carried over? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5786

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Sorry, can I ask the Member to repeat the question.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

How much is that carried over?

March 8th

Page 5786

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I don't have that number in front of me. I might have to get back to the Member. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5786

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. I think a lot of it is. But when does the department expect to make a submission to, say, the land and water board for permits, licenses, to carry out that project? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5786

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we're looking at in the year 2024. And if I can ask Mr. Jenkins to just speak a little bit more about that. I'm sure the Member won't be happy with me just throwing out a year so I think it's -- I think it would be appropriate for Mr. Jenkins to speak more.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Answer it really quick. Thank you. Mr. Jenkins.

March 8th

Page 5786

Jenkins

Yes, thanks, Madam Chair. So the Minister's right, looking at 2024, with environmental engineering work occurring up to that point. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5786

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. I would be -- I'll be very concerned if this government continues to push and then actually apply for the road while the regional study's going on. I just don't think that's a good idea. The whole idea of a regional study is to actually allow some time to carefully consider the future of the area. So proceeding with regulatory applications, getting into an environmental assessment while that is on, not a good idea. So does this -- what's the position of this government on proceeding with that and getting it into permitting/licensing and possibly a separate EA, environmental assessment, while the regional study is on? I don't think that's a good idea. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5786

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, some of the information that we're going to collect will help inform some of the applications that's going forward. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member.

March 8th

Page 5786

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. I don't object in principle to gathering data and information. I just don't think you want to trigger an environmental assessment by submitting land use permit/water licenses while the regional study's on. So I want to know if that's what this government is going to do? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5786

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to ask Mr. Jenkins to speak a little bit more about that.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Mr. Jenkins.

March 8th

Page 5786

Jenkins

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. So, yes, the RSCA has been approved by the federal minister to be undertaken. One of the things that the federal minister did mention was that things in other applications need to be able to continue while this process is underway and be informed. And we're collecting a multitude of information that will help actually be used in the RSCA and contribute to the outcomes there. But we do have $40 million to advance the application for the Lockhart All-Season Road. That is money that needs to be utilized up to 2027. And we feel that we could continue with that process while the RCA is underway and be informed as those processes move together. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Questions to energy and strategic initiatives? Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5786

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually had a lot of really excited people talking about the e-bicycle rebate and the Minister's announcement that they were expanding that to other regions outside of just Yellowknife. So my question there is will the $10,000 be enough now? Are we actually going to add more money in given that we've expanded the area of eligible people. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5786

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, you know, in previous budget, we didn't have a line item for electrical vehicles. I've heard from the Members that, you know, this is of interest here in the Northwest Territories so we added a line. Actually we're calling it a pilot project. So this year, although it's only $10,000, it might not be enough but it's a pilot; it's a test. We will be able to assess it and perhaps if we have a good uptake, then perhaps we can set aside more money next year. And, actually, I think the amount for next year is a bit higher so, you know, we are working with what we have. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5786

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you. And I do recognize this is, like, a tiny amount, a drop in the hat of this department's budget. But, you know, every, you know, new journey is taken with the first step. So this is a start. And I do appreciate that, you know, it did sound like if there's more than the $10,000 that is wanted that we would perhaps be looking to add money here so that's great.

I just wanted to ask a bit about around the Arctic Energy Alliance. It always noted and sort of touted as being the solution of getting money out the door, etcetera. And, you know, I'm always in support of NGOs doing work because I think that they often are more creative and efficient than the government can be in doing that. But that being said, I look at the board of directors for Arctic Energy Alliance and it is all, for the most part, Government of the Northwest Territories employees, public utilities employees, Northlands, things like that. So I have a lot of concern, given the conversation we've had around deputy ministers on boards, that perhaps this, again, is an area where while this is an NGO, the government is very heavily directing what happens here. That being said, then I wonder if there's perhaps opportunities for this to now start being put into more of the communities' hands. And I recognize there are employees within Arctic Energy Alliance that are representative to the different regions and I think that's great. So can the Minister or the department speak to the ability of Arctic Energy Alliance to actually execute? Do they always spend their money when they're given it, and what is the plan to diversify the board here and really stop having it be government directed? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5786

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, although Arctic Energy Alliance is arm's length, we do work in good partnership. You know, there's a lot of great things that the Arctic Energy Alliance are doing on behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories. And, you know, they have -- we're starting to expand different things and the people that are at the table are, you know -- are people that provide good advice to the board. If I can have Mr. Jenkins just speak a little bit more to that, thanks.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Yes. Mr. Jenkins.

March 8th

Page 5786

Jenkins

Thank you, Madam Chair. So our partnership with Arctic Energy Alliance is a really important one under our 2030 Energy Strategy. And in 2021-2022, they did invest about $4.5 million of GNWT funding into a number of energy audits and rebates and retrofits and wood stoves and other things like that. $1.8 million of that was rebates and incentives. So one of the things that we constantly look at with Arctic Energy Alliance, and talk to them about, is it is application-based and how can we try to remove, if there are, any barriers to uptake on those programs. So that's a key piece of delivery and spending the money that they've received. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5786

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member, do you have --

March 8th

Page 5787

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I understand what you're saying but nothing was responded to about the fact that this is a directed by government people. So when I hear that it's arm's length, I have to kind of laugh at how arm's length is it when you're just putting money over in a pot that's then directed and controlled by people that also work for the government. When I hear that it's because these people -- from the Minister, that it's because these people can offer advice, well, I can right now think of someone in your riding, Madam Chair, that would be an amazing technical advisor to a group like Arctic Energy Alliance. And given, though, that history of what goes on sometimes with this department, these types of people are not interested in being part of this work and I think that's a mistake, and I think it's a loss of good input here. The private sector, to me, is completely missing from Arctic Energy Alliance's board. And to me, that's just -- I don't know even know what to say about that. So maybe I'll just leave it at that. I don't feel that my question was answered about their efficiencies and how much they spend their money and how well they do it. But the other piece to that, actually I will add is that, you know, again, this is -- Arctic Energy Alliance's programs are often for people that are living in Yellowknife, that have a lot of money, that have good paying jobs. It's not for people that are living paycheque to paycheque. I do recognize there was some money that's put aside to help people offset the money that has to be put up upfront but, really, this program is designed for non-Indigenous people living in Yellowknife, is my opinion.

Moving forward, I would like to talk a little bit about some of these projects that are here that are very small but I think could be quite effective in, you know, getting some money out. And things around like the biomass energy projects, there's only $100,000 there. You know, there's community -- sorry, commercial energy conservation efficiency program, only $200,000 there.

You know, if we really want to get smart with having our communities and our businesses become energy efficient, we need to put the money in their hands. And this doesn't seem like enough. And so could the Minister or the department speak to what their thoughts are on whether this is -- these are subscribed funds, do they need to be increased, could we be putting more money there? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5787

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the -- you know, there's perhaps never enough money out there for any type of assistance. But, I mean, we are working with the federal government in partnership with the Arctic Energy Alliance to be able to look at what sort of federal programs are out there so that we can look at perhaps adding more programs into the alliance.

And I do -- just going back a little bit, Madam Chair, so we had about 2,716 rebates. And I'm looking at all the different regions and, for example, the Beaufort Delta was the second highest at 644 rebates. So, I mean, all the different regions has a fair share of rebates. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Minister. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5787

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, I stand corrected. But then I still don't see that that's probably making its way into places to like Tulita or Fort Liard or places as that. So I will get myself more informed on where the money is being spent. But, again, I still stand behind that it is a program that is accessed by people that have disposal income to upgrade their homes and not by people that probably desperately need their homes upgraded and need the rebate on their energy.

My last -- or sort of my next area of question is around the electrical vehicle charging stations, and sorry if somebody already asked this. But I'm interested to know there's sort of this idea of a corridor and such. And so will the eventual plan be to have this -- if we could have the Mackenzie Valley built and all that, is that basically any highway in the Northwest Territories would have stations along it and that we would be sort of promoting people to come from the south to use those? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5787

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, that's the intent of having the electrical vehicle. The study says that the charging corridor would be set up on Highways No. 1 and No. 3 from Yellowknife to the Alberta border. That's our kind of big picture right now, Madam Chair. So we're hoping that some of the stations could be placed along the way to Fort Smith. So, I mean, this is a bigger picture. We are working on smaller little parts of this. You know, having said that, these don't happen over night but this is the bigger picture for us. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5787

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Luckily, with a minute left. That's appreciated. All right, Aurora Research Institute's Energy Project, it's only at 70. You know, again, I want to -- sorry, I'm just looking to make sure I know where I'm talking about here.

So the wind potential. Has there been any sort of new areas of interest where we are looking at potentially bringing in wind? I always hear very anecdotally that the wind is picking up here in Yellowknife and such. I mean, whether that's true or not, I'm not sure but it sure feels very cold so -- and fast and hard. So I'm wondering if there's a potential for that in other areas that we haven't looked at yet before now. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5787

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, you know, we have targets to meet within reducing greenhouse gas emissions. So, I mean, we as a department, we as a government, are looking at, you know, innovative ways to be able to reduce that. And if I can have Mr. Jenkins speak a little bit more about some of the things that we are doing and looking forward to. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Jenkins.

March 8th

Page 5787

Jenkins

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. So the Aurora Research Institute, so they are coordinating the installation and monitoring data gathering equipment for wind potential. And the funding is going towards wind monitoring through ground-based lidar units. We did do some work previously in Norman Wells and Sachs, and the wind conditions weren't conducive to establishing power generation sites at those locations. Unfortunately, I don't have a list of the sites -- prospective sites the lidar was looking at so we will have to return with that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any further questions from Members under energy and strategic initiatives? Member for Monfwi.

March 8th

Page 5787

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. This transmission Whati line, it's 125. I mean, like that was 2021-2022 and there's nothing to date. So this tells me that project -- the study must have been completed. Can we get an update on this? Like, you don't have to update us now but maybe send me a -- send an email regarding this project.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5787

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

So thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, as part of the consultation engagement and planning activities for this Whati Transmission Line, Department of Infrastructure provided funding to the Tlicho government to begin updating the existing technical work, the work plan, and the traditional knowledge study. So this is -- although this is early stage of the work, it's still underway to be completed by the 2022-2023-fiscal year. Madam Chair, we are also working with Tlicho on many other projects. And this is good government to government working relationship and partnership. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 8th

Page 5787

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Thank you. Thank you for the answer there. Yes, because a while ago I did propose -- I did ask about if there was another study to be done going from Yellowknife to Whati on the highway because I think -- I'm just wondering if there was a study done for that project before or, like, an alternative route?

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5787

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the highway goes north-south and the routing for this is going east-west so, I mean, it really doesn't line up. But I'm going to have the -- Mr. Jenkins just speak a little bit more because, I mean, he's got a little bit more technical knowledge. I just know that road's going this way and that transmission's going that way, and that don't line up, so. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Jenkins.

March 8th

Page 5787

Jenkins

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. So this is a 60-kilometre transmission line, and it's connecting to the existing facilities at Snare Hydro. And so, really, again, as the Minister mentioned, the highway's going north-south and quite a ways west of that, of those facilities. So it really doesn't sort of pair well in terms of, you know, connecting the Snare Hydro System to the community of Whati. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5787

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 8th

Page 5788

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Thank you. Thank you. No, the reason why I asked is that because I know there's a lot of cabin on the highway, and people have been inquiring about that too as well, because I know this -- if the power line goes through, then people will benefit from them. So that way they can live there year round and they can -- you know, it's part of their traditional culture as well that they do lots of things on the highway that, you know -- so that's why I ask if there was a study done. But I do understand about the Whati Transmission Line going across, you know. And another one too is that Gameti was asking as well and just wondering if there was any study was done from -- going from Gameti -- I mean, from Whati to Gameti to extend that transmission line?

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member. Just please remember to address your questions and so that the sound -- so we know when you end. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5788

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, in Gameti, we are not looking at a transmission line however we are working at looking at perhaps a mini hydro. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 8th

Page 5788

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Yeah, well, I wasn't aware of that mini hydro in Gameti. But if they do have some of these studies, these reports, it would be nice if they can share it with us. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5788

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, if the Member's asking us to share what we have in terms of -- I believe this is still in the planning stage, you know. So we are looking at that as an option. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for -- are there any further questions under energy and strategic initiatives? Seeing none, Members, please turn to page 265.

Infrastructure, energy and strategic initiatives, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $16,886,000. Does committee agree?

March 8th

Page 5788

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister, did you need to switch our witnesses again?

Okay, sergeant-at-arms, please switch the witnesses.

Minister, please introduce your witness.

March 8th

Page 5788

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, Connie is still to me right but to my left I have assistant deputy minister Tracy St. Denis. And she's ADM for programs and services. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Programs and services, beginning on page 271 with information items on page 272. Questions. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5788

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, can the Minister or department please tell us why Marine Transportation Services has disappeared here from this part of the budget? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5788

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to have Ms. Lee speak to the explanation on the budget.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Ms. Lee.

March 8th

Page 5788

Lee

Thank you, Madam Chair. So Marine Transportation is actually a revolving fund so there is a subsequent information item for them. We do have to include this line item here under our 2021-2022 actuals because per the Revolving Fund Act, any kind of accounting deficits that is being shown by revolving fund does need to be absorbed by the administering department. So this is the line item that just shows that funding towards that revolving fund. It doesn't actually get budgeted within the programs and services activity. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5788

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. So then is it fair to say that when we come to the -- if I'm here -- that we've come to the next year's mains estimates, we would see another number show up in the actuals for 2022-2023? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5788

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. The answer is yes, but I'd want to give Connie an opportunity to explain that really quick. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Ms. Lee.

March 8th

Page 5788

Lee

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, yes, that is correct. Assuming that there is an accounting deficit that's being -- that is going to be incurred by the Marine Transportation Services revolving fund, you will see another actuals there. In any year where there is not one, you will not see a line item there. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5788

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

I think we could all safely assume there's going to be a deficit for this revolving fund next year so I'll -- so then my -- and I don't want to go down -- too far down the accounting rabbit hole, but why then do we not sort of try to anticipate what this number would be and include it in the forecasting? Why is it only added in retroactively, if I've got it right. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5788

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to ask Connie to speak -- or Ms. Lee to speak a little bit more to it. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Ms. Lee.

March 8th

Page 5788

Lee

Thank you, Madam Chair. So, yes, while the Member is correct in stating that we may want to anticipate such a cost, that is not how the Revolving Fund Act works and has stated that situation. So we do not budget for it, and we do not ask for appropriations for that until the fact is complete. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5788

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will leave it at that. So if dictated by the Act, good enough for me.

My next question is could the Minister or department speak about the fluctuation or change there in the amount around the technology service centre? I note that it's about a -- I can't do math today -- $600,000 change order -- change. So, on page 271, so if the Minister or department could just tell us what that's about? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5788

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the technical -- Technology Service Centre, there's the variance there. So the budget was underestimated for the assets that were pushed into service, and then the increase is more about the amortization for any of these GNWT assets. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5788

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'd like to congratulate the Minister and her department on reopening up the driver's vehicle centres for walk-ins. Ya, thank you. When I saw that, I was quite happy as last year I realized I had an expired driver's license for two days that I didn't realize because I couldn't walk in on the Friday. So can -- or the Saturday or the Sunday. Probably not the Monday either. I think I had to come back on Tuesday at that point.

So, can the Minister speak just a little bit around compliance and licensing. I do understand that we have moved towards a more secure driver's license over the last few years. Is there a way that we're going to be able to sort of -- and I know there's been streamlining being done. So maybe I'll just ask for an update on all of that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5788

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to ask Ms. St. Denis to speak to a little bit more about that. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Ms. St. Denis.

March 8th

Page 5788

St. Denis

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Member is correct about the security value that we actually have in our driver's license. We actually were the second jurisdiction in Canada to get that heightened level of license. As far as implementation, it's fully in effect across the territory. So continuing to look to continue to have that driver's license in place. No plans to make any amendments at this time. It seems to be working well. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5788

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Sorry, I -- yeah, I have questions. Sorry, I just wasn't looking at that. And, yeah, sorry, my apologies. My next question is around the inspection services. So I note that that's a pretty stagnant item for the last couple years or last year unpredicted. Is there where the boiler inspections lie? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5788

The Chair Lesa Semmler

I'm not sure. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5788

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I hope you're not sure. Just kidding. Yes, that is where this area lies. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5789

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. So it's come to my attention -- I'm going to be very specific here on an issue -- that, you know, this at times that people are paying their boiler fee, their registration fee, and yet they're not really getting inspected and then, you know, for the first time they've been inspected in a few years but, really, there's no -- there's not really any need for that. And given that the sense that they already have to have their servicing done every year, it does really come across to my constituents as a cash grab almost, especially the years where they don't show up to even look at the boiler. So my question is there an opportunity to change this type of inspection to where rather than having people come out and take a look or not even and then charge people, have them submitting their service records instead so that every year they get their boiler serviced they submit that record to the GNWT instead of having someone come out and try to coordinate all these visits and people feeling that they're not really getting any value for this registration slash inspection for their boiler? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5789

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this is -- this is something that we'd have to look at to see if it fits within the program. I really respect the Member's, you know, bringing forward some of these ideas and that is something we can look at as well. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5789

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. And, yeah, I have been going about that one through the red tape working group but maybe I'll just come directly to this Minister and update her on what my specific instance is.

I'm just looking at enterprise information management. It's up about $400,000. And my understanding, is that a software program that's used by the department? Maybe I could get a bit more information as to why we've seen a bit of a jump there. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5789

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to ask Ms. St. Denis to speak to the line item. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Ms. St. Denis.

March 8th

Page 5789

St. Denis

Thank you, Madam Chair. The term "enterprise information management" is actually the unit that does DIIMS, which is the storage of data and also the warehousing of data by the GNWT. So the particular item that she's talking about was some unbudgeted contracts that were required for processing of those documents around Fort Simpson related to damage to the flood. So it was an unexpected item. And then we did see an increase of some funding around software licenses related to maintenance on records management. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5789

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, I appreciate that. I got time for one more probably here. Just curious around air marine and safety. How -- maybe I don't know if I can ask this here but -- no, I probably can't. So answer my own question; I was going to ask about the airport upgrade. That's somewhere else.

Fuel services, can the Minister speak to whether or not we're going to see a potential supplementary coming later? Is this $1.8 million stable given the sort of fluctuation and cost of living and supply chain issues that we're seeing currently. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5789

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to ask Ms. Lee to speak to that.

March 8th

Page 5789

Lee

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the fuel services line within the programs and services. Again, the fuel service division is actually an operating revolving fund. So what you see here is actually the amortization for the fuel service assets as they are a revolving fund that does not have the ability to own capital. So in terms of a supplementary for the air lift, there would be discussion on potential requests if there is that need to go to the revolving fund itself in order to ensure that it does not result in increased -- additional increased costs because of that matter. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? Member for Yellowknife North.

March 8th

Page 5789

Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you. You know, I think we started the DIIMS project about a decade ago. Can I just confirm if everybody is now on DIIMS? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5789

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we have almost everybody. We're not quite there yet. We still have colleagues and friends over at Education, Culture and Employment as well as Health and Social Services. So I mean, we are getting there. We are working in different parts. We've been piloting a little part of one of the departments in health to see how that works. But, I mean, that is the intent to get everybody into one system and I thank the Member for, you know, his question because I think that's important information to get out there. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 8th

Page 5789

Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Yeah, thank you. Can we perhaps -- well, can we get an update when we think we can get ECE and health on DIIMS? And I think perhaps if I -- my understanding of the situation is that there's parts of them that will probably never get on DIIMS. You know, health is going out to get brand new health records software that I think is 10 million plus dollars, and ECE has been trying to get student records software that -- it's not that much, but it's millions of dollars as well. They just have unique records that, you know, need their own software that's not DIIMS. But the rest of the kind of operational parts of the department probably can get on is why I think they got blocked is my understanding. So a) can someone just confirm that's kind of why those departments are last; and b) when we actually think they'll get on DIIMS? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5789

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the Education, Culture and Employment is planning deployment in 2023, so within this year, for four more divisions. We will work with them to see what additional supports that they may need to perhaps add on some of the other divisions.

As I mentioned, Health and Social Services has two divisions that could go forward but we'll need to see how else we can support them in migrating other -- into other units to be able to get this all transferred.

I'm not aware that -- the Member mentioned that perhaps some of the -- the whole of Education, Culture and Employment can't get in within DIIMS. I'm not aware of that. But, I mean, we as a Department of Infrastructure will provide supports to the departments to ensure that if they need -- if they need any help going forward that we support that. End of the day, that's what we want, is everyone to be on DIIMS. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 8th

Page 5789

Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. Can -- maybe this is in the weeds but I -- or, you know, somewhere and perhaps we can update it, I'm sure there's some sort of DIIMS work plan. Can someone just tell me when the license for the software for DIIMS goes to? One of my great fears is that we're going to get everyone on and then every once in a while we get these notices from Microsoft or someone saying oh, we're not renewing this software, and we're going to have to restart with a whole new information management system. Are we confident that when we're done all this that we have a license for this software for -- well, at least a decade or something? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5789

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, at this time we're not getting notifications as to this situation. Perhaps -- I hope we don't because, I mean, it does take a lot of time to get -- to get everybody on board with this. And, you know, if we get everyone on board and then we get notification, that's a lot of work and a lot of time, a lot of money that's being put into getting everybody on board. So, you know, my hope is that this doesn't happen. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any further questions on programs and services from Members? Seeing none. Infrastructure, programs and services, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $17,836,000. Does committee agree?

March 8th

Page 5789

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, committee. Minister, did you need to switch your witnesses?

Sergeant-at-arms, please switch the witnesses. Minister, will you please introduce your witness.

March 8th

Page 5789

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, Connie to my right is still here but to my left I have my assistant deputy minister Gary Brennan for regional operations. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5789

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Welcome, Mr. Brennan. All right. So Members, regional operations, beginning on page 274 with information items on page 275. Questions. Seeing -- oh, just about. Member for Thebacha.

March 8th

Page 5790

Frieda Martselos Thebacha

So, Madam Chair, she thought I was not going to ask any questions. I just have a very short question. One of them is filling the vacancies, the job vacancies at highways and the airports.

You know, I know it's a -- it's a real concern for me how long it takes to fill a vacancy. And these are -- like, I'm just -- as an example, are the heavy duty mechanic positions at the airport in Fort Smith and at the highways, I want to make sure that they're filled as soon as possible because those are very vital infrastructure that we -- or personnel that we need to ensure that safety and everything continues as usual. And I know both positions are open and they're not -- you know, we lost one person who looked after two of them, and it was a major problem but he went with a different division in government. And so I'm just concerned about the vacancies in positions. I wonder if I can have the Minister answer that question. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5790

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, it's always our intent to have, when we have vacancies to get them filled for several reasons, because it puts extra stress on some of the other staff that's having to do the job. And so, I mean, it is something that we're looking at. I do want to give Mr. Brennan an opportunity to just speak specifically about what's going on in the Member's area. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Brennan.

March 8th

Page 5790

Brennan

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, so the Member is correct. There are a couple vacancies of our mechanics in Fort Smith right now so our mechanic at the Highway's Camp, which was doing work at both the airport and the camp for quite a while, recently left the department unfortunately. So we are in the process of reevaluating that position so it has to go through a job evaluation process at which point in time it'll be advertised. I think we've recently advertised for the airport mechanic as well. So both of those are in process. I can't give the timeline when they'll be filled, but it is in process currently. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Thebacha.

March 8th

Page 5790

Frieda Martselos Thebacha

No, I don't have any other questions, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Are there any other questions from Members under regional operations? Member for Monfwi.

March 8th

Page 5790

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Yes. This winter road, 6.2. So I just wanted to ask how many roads does it cover?

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5790

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. So the -- you know, the Member's speaking more specifically, I believe, around the Tlicho road system. So the winter road includes a winter road from Highway No. 9, which is the new Tlicho Highway to Gameti, which is about 151 kilometres, and then you're going to over to Wekweeti which is about 243 kilometres. Also, we have the one to Aklavik which is about 129 kilometres. So yes, we do -- I don't have any more further details other than those are the three I could just speak to on the top of my mind.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 8th

Page 5790

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Thank you. No, I was just asking in general, not just Tlicho specific. You know, I was just asking in general. But I know that winter road to Gameti was opened late and same thing with Wekweeti, it's going to be opened late. And I know there's a lot of people that are concerned about the climate change. And, you know, because of that that ice road, they're opening late and it's going to be, you know, like a short season for the ice road. So I'm just wondering now that it's -- because a lot of people are saying, you know, like, especially the elders, they -- you know, even to Wekweeti, there's big lakes that you have to go on. And same thing with Gameti too, you know, there's at least three big lakes. So they are very concerned. So they were asking that, you know, maybe to change the route from -- you know, to go more on land. So I'm just wondering if there was -- if there was any study done from the department to possibly change the route for next year? And like I said before, with one of the mine closing, we're going to have a lot of people with class 1 and class 3, and then they're going to be looking for employment. So I'm just wondering if there's any study done to possibly change the route for the winter road?

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5790

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I do want to go back to the Member's previous question. We have about 2,438 kilometres of all-season highways; about 1,227 are paved; we have about 1,211 that are gravel here in the territories. We have 1,435 kilometres of public winter and ice roads that connects all our communities overall in general.

Now I'm going to answer the Member's question more specifically about Gameti.

Yes, the road was opened to light traffic to only about 10,000 kilograms on February 27th, which is quite late. Madam Chair, we've been seeing a lot of our communities connecting, you know, wanting to get goods into the communities and we just -- it's a matter of safety. We have to ensure that our roads are safe for people to travel on. I just -- I can't say that enough. And until the roads are safe in profile, only at that time we're able to ensure that we get the right traffic loads on the road. So that is -- that is what we're trying to work on now. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 8th

Page 5790

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Yes, okay. With that in mind, so with the climate change, is there a plan to increase engineer and safety inspection on the winter road, including profiling more often?

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5790

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to use one example for Aklavik. We've had the contractors reach out to the department wanting to increase the weight loads on the Aklavik ice road, and we sent our profilers out. You know, we try and -- you know, the profilers are on a schedule but if the community and the contractor feels that, you know, it's ready, then we would send our profiler out. That was one example. And if I want to, just see if Gary wants -- or Mr. Brennan wants to perhaps expand on that. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Brennan.

March 8th

Page 5790

Brennan

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, for the Tlicho winter road system, I don't believe that the number of inspections or number of profiles is the issue right now. We do profile on a regular basis as required. It has been a challenging year as the Member noted but, you know, warm temperatures to start and increased snowfall in the region. We're aware there's -- we're behind schedule, working with the contractor closely to make it up. Our two highway folks are up there right now. Just one profiled Gameti two days ago and working on Wekweeti right now to get the status updates. So we do profile on a regular basis on those there to increase the weighs as fast as we safely can. But as the Minister noted, safety is the top priority for us when working on ice roads for both the staff and travelling public. So thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

March 8th

Page 5790

Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

Yeah, thank you. And I'm just wondering if there's a way that -- I'm just wondering if Tlicho if-- how are Tlicho involved in the profiling? Is there an opportunity to train local people?

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5790

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to ask Mr. Brennan to just speak a little bit more about what we as a government are doing, because we have that partnership with Tlicho, and I just would like to give him the opportunity. Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Mr. Brennan.

March 8th

Page 5790

Brennan

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, so when it comes to profiling, a number of years ago we had an incident on a different road where a truck went through the ice and at that time, I think it was 2016, the department made the change in policies whereby we do our own profiling and do our own interpretation. So we have had that in the past. Currently, due to some liabilities incurred from a previous incident, we do all profiling and interpretation of the data. Could we look at training Tlicho residents in the future? That's something that we can certainly discuss, absolutely. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5790

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to clarify, this year the winter road to the Monfwi area to Gameti and such is actually being constructed by the Tlicho themselves, is it not? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5790

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, that is correct.

March 8th

Page 5790

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5791

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. And this is a new thing then that's been happening more recently? In the past, it was constructed by other contractors, is that correct? Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5791

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to ask Mr. Brennan to just speak a little bit more about what was done in the past versus what's done now. I'm really happy to know that currently we are working with the Tlicho government and doing this work together. In terms of what is done in the past, I'll get Mr. Brennan to speak a little further to that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Brennan.

March 8th

Page 5791

Brennan

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. So, yeah, so I think that the -- in the past, we always had a contract with the Tlicho Investment Corporation and Construction Corporation for the construction of the roads, and they used a significant number of subcontractors. This year they are doing it on their own although more recently, and because of the challenges that were faced this year with the environmental concerns of, again, warm temperatures, they did bring in a subcontractor late to help get ahead of the game. So the Tlicho are building the majority of the roads and the communities are also involved as well, both from Gameti and Wekweeti, working from their communities south basically. So the communities have always done a little part as well so. But, yes, the Tlicho are doing the majority of the work this year. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5791

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I think that's good. I mean, we definitely want to be increasing capacity within Indigenous organizations to do the work, and I'm glad to hear that it's not just being subbed out and hopefully will lead to some of the longer term jobs that my colleague was mentioning. I guess I just want to say that I have heard some issues around safety that did not have to do with climate change, and I just want that to be noted that it is out there and perhaps the Minister needs to get a better look at that or be aware of that.

My next, though, is around the highway operations. I do note that there is a 3 million -- no, that's not quite right, 3 million, is it -- probably under $3 million -- increase there. But I'm just curious to know given the way that the supply chain issues and everything is going, but more so here around maybe the lack of staff and employment, are we anticipating any issues with maintaining the highways and operating them and any sort of future costs given that we've seen, you know, some flooding issues around -- I can't remember the name -- Sweet Creek, is that it -- down in south of Hay River and such. So can the Minister speak to whether or not we're going to even see more cost increases there? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5791

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, you know, with climate change being so real up here in the North, you know, it's affecting us way more than it is across Canada, we are seeing things that are just -- things we've never seen before. I mean, one example is the -- you know, one of our barges were not able to make it into our one community as a result of climate change. And so, I mean, there are a number of factors. You know, we do -- we do think about things like that when we're looking at our budgets because, you know, it's really hard to predict what's going to happen anywhere in the territories. And, you know, finding extra money for this is always a struggle. And if I can ask Mr. Brennan if he wants to add anything further to the Member's question. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Brennan.

March 8th

Page 5791

Brennan

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I think just adding a little bit more to what the Minister said, staffing wise on highway operations, I don't think we have any concerns. We have the North Slave and South Slave operate their own forces, and we're always able to find qualified individuals to do that work. And in the Deh Cho and the Beaufort Delta, have contracted service and we have -- you know, we have plenty of good talent in those regions as well. In terms of cost increases, we're seeing the same inflationary pressures that we see across the board. The price of asphalt, oil, as the Minister noted earlier, is impacting the amount of chip seal done. It's also impacting the amount of maintenance that we can do. Cost of aggregate is going up, same as everything else. So, yeah, we are starting to see those impacts, and we'll go through the business planning process to seek increases for budgets as we need to. So thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5791

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Two things there, just because the Minister opened the door. If you send the barge in earlier in the season, you aren't going to run into problems trying to send it in in October. So I won't get into that with you today. However, is -- so given what the ADM said, is this three -- or under $3 million increase here, is that actually anticipated inflationary pressures, forced growth per se, or is it going to be something where we would have to come back? Is this sort of a real actual one or does it have that contingency built in already? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5791

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, if I could ask the Member to clarify which line that she's referring to. Under our highway operations, we have three different areas, item 6, 7, and 8. So I want to be able to provide an answer if I know specifically what line the Member's speaking to.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Minister, we don't have that much detail in our budget. So we just have highway operations. So Minister.

March 8th

Page 5791

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Okay, well, in that case I'm just going to pick one of my lines. The 1.35 -- $1.3 million is amortization increase for some of the GNWT assets. We have about 364 for mobile equipment fuel forced growth. We also have about $589,000 for regional highway operation for the dust control under forced growth. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. And if you want to send that list, you can give it to us. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5791

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. This Minister's great for always, like, triggering other questions for me. So my next one sort of is around that dust control. I do know that one of the things we did here about the Whati road was that it was quite dusty. And I do appreciate that the department did appear to respond fairly quickly after our visit and get some dust control measures on the road. That being said, I again wonder if we're going to be seeing over time an increased need for dust control and other measures. So where does it become a point where, I guess -- or is it being looked at when doing the dust control no longer seems to be worthwhile, and then we would be looking at, like, chip sealing? Around Whati, are we looking for that -- around this specific road, are we waiting to see if the mine goes ahead before we make those types of decisions? What would sort of trigger the chip sealing of a road like that? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5791

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I will turn it over to Gary in case I trigger any further questions here. It'll just be yes, no answers, and that -- that's the case. Mr. Brennan.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Brennan.

March 8th

Page 5791

Brennan

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. So for the Whati road, that there is actually a road that was a P3 project. So we current -- have a current agreement with the contractor to maintain the road in its current state for 25 years. So there's no plans to chip seal that road for the life of that agreement. Currently no plans. So thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member.

March 8th

Page 5791

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. So within that P3 agreement, though, is there the opportunity should there be a required upgrade to the road given the advancement of any of the mining activity in the area? Is there flexibility within the agreement to allow for road upgrades and sort of how does that work given that there is a third party entity here. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5791

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to say yes, only if we revise the agreement. So, I mean, there is opportunity going forward to look at the agreement, and if it is required, that is something we can look at. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

March 8th

Page 5791

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think I'm good. I'll let the Minister off the hook for the rest of the minute and a half. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5791

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Are there any more questions under regional operations? Member for Hay River South.

March 8th

Page 5791

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you, Madam Chair. Hopefully this is the right place to ask this, but. My medical for my driver's license expires next month. I'm just wondering if I can get an extension? No.

Actually, I want to talk about -- and I'm hoping it's the right place -- is the EVL books for log books.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

That would be in programs and services. programs and services. Programs and services that would have been in. Ask in the House tomorrow. Did you have any questions under regional operations?

March 8th

Page 5792

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

(audio) they are for weights. I know that Deline was probably a little bit behind there, and I'm just wondering if fuel is getting into communities, how the roads are holding up as well up the valley? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5792

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, Deline is one of the communities that we need fuel going in. I know we didn't have enough weight restriction on the road so there was a delay. I'm going to see if Mr. Brennan has any further updates as, you know, the community was quite concerned about getting the fuel, and I'm -- in speaking with the leadership as well. But, I mean, we are working to try and get the right amount of fuel to get them through. But if I can see if Gary wants to speak -- or Mr. Brennan wants to speak any further. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Mr. Brennan.

March 8th

Page 5792

Brennan

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. So for Deline specifically, I do believe the weight was just increased I want to say to 40 or 48,000 kgs. We're currently 76 percent complete on gasoline and 51 percent on diesel for Deline for this year. So we have no concerns about fuel delivery in Deline this year. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Hay River South.

March 8th

Page 5792

Rocky Simpson Hay River South

Thank you. Yeah, and the rest of the roads, like, for Good Hope and Colville as well, what are they -- what condition are they in and are they getting in their supplies? Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5792

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, in Colville Lake, we have about -- we're about 93 percent with the fuel for gasoline in the community, and we're about 78 percent to get our diesel into the community as one example. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for -- are there any further questions under regional operations? Seeing none, please turn to page 274.

Infrastructure, regional operations, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $248,478,000. Does committee agree?

March 8th

Page 5792

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Committee, there are additional information items on page 276 to 287. Questions. Member for Frame Lake

March 8th

Page 5792

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Now we're coming to my favourite part of the Infrastructure budget. I've been patiently waiting hours. Marine Transportation Services Revolving Fund, and it's on page 281. Oh, she's going to -- rats.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

We stopped the clock. Sergeant-at-arms, can you please switch out the witnesses.

Welcome back, Ms. St. Denis. All right. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5792

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. I love revolving funds. So MTS, can someone tell me where in the budget, you know, we -- the barges didn't get into some of the Nunakput communities. Where in the budget do I find that expenditure 2022-2023 to airlift fuel into those communities, and how much was it? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5792

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the Member is correct. It was quite, you know, expensive as a result of us not getting the barges in. We did commit to, you know, do the best we can do ensure we get the supplies back to the community members. I believe the number was about $3 million. I just want to just turn it over to Ms. Lee to just perhaps speak a little bit more about where we're at. That was the number I was given a while ago. So if I can, thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Ms. Lee.

March 8th

Page 5792

Lee

Thank you, Madam Chair. So within this budget, you wouldn't see the costs for this year's actuals just yet. That will be in the subsequent year's main estimates under the 2022-2023 actuals at that time. The way that the budget's information item is structured, you also wouldn't see that figure called out separately; however, the Minister is correct, that currently the airlift cost for the Sachs Harbour delivery situation is about $3 million to date. We are still working on working through that process. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5792

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. So that estimate, does it include any compensation to individuals in Sachs Harbour for what happened or any claims that individuals might have had? Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5792

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, no. We did cover the cost to bring the supplies into the community. There is no additional cost. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5792

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks. So this incident has happened twice now in the short tenure of MTS. Does the MTS actually have any written policies or guidance about where they deliver stuff first or the priority? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member. Minister.

March 8th

Page 5792

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to ask Ms. St. Denis to speak to our plan. I know we have one in plan. We've got our six tugs. They all have different areas to go. But I want to see if Tracy can speak to it. Thanks.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Ms. St. Denis.

March 8th

Page 5792

St. Denis

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Member is correct that there is planning that is underway. Preplanning gets done in advance as far as what community is done by which piece of equipment. That work is currently underway for the 2023 season as far as what planning needs to happen and when. And as well part of that exercise is doing a review of last summer, the 2022 season. And the plan is to have the Minister to share that report with standing committee. Thank you.

March 8th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 8th

Page 5792

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, look, I'm not asking about planning. I'm asking about a policy that says MTS will deliver fuel first to communities. Anything else comes after that. Is there any written policy, directive, whatever you want to call it, that says that's what MTS is going to do? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 9th

Page 5792

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm going to ask Tracy to speak further to that. Thanks.

March 9th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Ms. St. Denis.

March 9th

Page 5792

St. Denis

Thank you, Madam Chair. The core function and the core priority of the organization is delivering fuel and food to the communities. Part of the review from last year is at what point do we institute standard operating procedures if things are not going as planned. Preplanning happens in advance of the season. What are those things that are going to trigger? So agree with the Member, standard operator procedures are important. Last year was an anomaly, understanding that the Member referenced an incident a few years prior. But, yes, standard operating procedures are key but the core of delivering food, fuel to the community is priority number 1 for the organization.

March 9th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 9th

Page 5792

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Well, if that's a priority, MTS has failed twice in my short-term here since we took it over. That's not a good track record. So is there an intention to ever create a written policy that says we're going to resupply communities first and everything else comes after that? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 9th

Page 5792

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, yes.

March 9th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 9th

Page 5792

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. That's great. When can we see that written policy? Thank you.

March 9th

Page 5792

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Minister.

March 9th

Page 5793

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we'll have to get back to the Member. That is -- not tomorrow. We'll have to get back to the Member in terms of what our plans are. You know, it is very important that we -- you know, we look at this, and it's -- I'm presenting to standing committee on some of the lessons learns through MTS. And that's -- you know, we're looking at dates now. And I think, you know, that's a really good opportunity to be able to explain what are some of the challenges that we face in getting our fuel into the communities or supplies into the communities and having to deal with climate change and getting our tugs out of Hay River, for example. So, I mean, that is something that we will -- we are gathering some information now so that we can present to the committee. Thank you.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 9th

Page 5793

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. I can hardly wait for that meeting. But I do want to ask now about Yellowknife Airport Revolving Fund on page 283. It's now a staggering $49 million of accumulated surplus. When are we going to start to get some of that money out the door to actually improve what's happening at the airport? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 9th

Page 5793

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I want to start by saying this is not real money that's on here but I'm going to have Ms. Lee explain why. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Ms. Lee.

March 9th

Page 5793

Lee

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the Minister is correct in that it is not cash dollars when it comes to the $49 million. When it comes to the accumulated surplus, it is a total of operational surpluses and funds but it is of majority of it assets. So if these are all in capital asset figures, they are not money that we can spend, unless we choose to sell some of them. But it is not cash dollars. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

March 9th

Page 5793

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Okay. Before the clock runs out completely, can I get a number for what is available to actually spend on capital improvements at the airport and when we're going to start spending some of that money? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 9th

Page 5793

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we are looking at about $10 million -- just over $10 million. Thank you.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member.

March 9th

Page 5793

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. And thanks to the Minister. Okay, that was the first part. Second part, when are we going to start spending that money? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 9th

Page 5793

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we are starting to spend the money. We've got a list of all the different projects that we're doing with the revolving fund. And there are things like pre-board screening upgrade, the lounge expansion. The list goes on. I'm not going to use up the Member's time, but we are spending this money. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Minister. Are Members able to get that list? Thank you. Member.

March 9th

Page 5793

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, I'd love to see the list. Does that mean the master plan is now finished; we've got a fully functioning committee, whatever that thing is called, and is appointed by the Minister rather than the deputy minister. So the money's going to start to flow, changes are going to happen. That's what I want to see. People have been paying airport improvement fees for a long time without seeing a lot of progress. You can't even get a cup of coffee apparently on the air side of the terminal at 6 o'clock in the morning. So what's -- when are we going to start spending this money and get some improvements going? Thanks, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member. Minister.

March 9th

Page 5793

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, as I mentioned, we are spending the money. The YZF master plan is in the final stages. The contractor will present some of the more recent findings, information. We do have a YZF -- it's called the economic advisory committee. So, I mean, this is a committee that continues to meet, and it's made up of a number of people that are impacted at the Yellowknife Airport. The regional office is working with the contractor finalizing some of the data, and we're hoping to update standing committee perhaps in the spring. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. And just to clarify, because I don't know if you got -- the list that you were going to go through, you're able to provide that to the Members?

March 9th

Page 5793

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we can come back to the Members or whoever's interested in looking at what we've spent out at the Yellowknife Airport in terms of using some of the revolving fund. We can get back and see if we're able to share. Thank you.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. All right. Are there any further questions? Member for Yellowknife North.

March 9th

Page 5793

Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. We've come to my favourite part of the main estimates, which is page 285, $127 million we are going to pay in future lease payments largely to one company. But I wanted to start with a question about the new government building, the Sot Dene -- I've actually never said that out loud. The theory was when we spent that $25 million was that it would save us money yet we were required to do a lease to own commitment. I'm just wondering if we've ever followed up with whether that was a cheaper option or a more expensive option to build ourselves a seven-storey office building. Thank you, Madam Chair.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 9th

Page 5793

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we'll have to -- it's not something we can just answer right now. It's something that we need to look into and perhaps get back to the Member with that. Thank you.

March 9th

Page 5793

The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you for that commitment. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 9th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, and part of the reason -- well, I'm interested is because our current leasing policy requires us to do a lease versus ownership analysis every time we enter into a lease. I'm quite confident we're not doing that, especially not on renewals. But could the Minister perhaps commit to looking at all of this leasing money and just doing some sort of desktop lease versus ownership exercise. And I get sometimes we do it for new space but we kind of just seem to roll over and renew the buildings last minute without doing that required analysis as per the policy. Can we do that for our whole portfolio perhaps? Thank you.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, when evaluating the lease versus ownership, every scenario is unique. Although the building ownership may provide the best value in one situation, it doesn't mean it's the right approach for all the situations. And I think I've mentioned this before, the larger leases such as office buildings would not -- you know, there's a variety. In some of our communities, we lease from local. Within the larger centres, you know, we have different approaches as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I recognize each one's unique. And one of my favourite unique ones is actually not Northview, it's Northern United Place. We signed a long-term lease with Northern United Place. It's allowed them to provide multiple units of discounted housing for vulnerable people for decades. And we were actually willing to pay a little more for that long-term lease knowing that it would be kind of a combined commercial and residential that would house some people. I think it's kind of a great model, and we never did it again for some reason. But I guess in the form of some questions, can someone let me know whether Northern United Place is included in this $127 million of lease commitments, or would that be found under Aurora College? Thank you.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Minister.

March 9th

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Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, yes, it is.

March 9th

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

March 9th

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Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

I don't know, I guess I'll just end with a comment. I would encourage the department to relook at its whole leasing portfolio; use the NUP model. I also am very concerned that we are going to eventually end that NUP lease and put a lot of vulnerable people at risk. But I guess I'll just leave it at that. Thank you.

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The Chair Lesa Semmler

Thank you, Member. Are there any further questions to the information items? Seeing none, thank you, Members. Please return now to the departmental summary found on page 251.

Revenue summary, information items on page 252 and 253. Questions.

Seeing no questions, committee, I will now call the department summary of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, total department, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $309,335,000. Member for Frame Lake.

Committee Motion 377-19(2): Committee Report 45-19(2): Standing Committee on Government Operations Report on Bill 60: An Act to Amend the Petroleum Products and Carbon Tax Act - Government Response to Recommendations, Carried

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