Thank you, Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not want to go on with the debate. There are just one or two other issues that I think are important also.

One of the areas I think, I am a strong regionalist, as most people know, and I think that the Housing Corporation, in an effort to improve its efficiency, particularly at these levels, have to give more authority.

I have talked about this in economic development, and in my opinion, it is no different in the Housing Corporation. You cannot have project managers supervising million dollar jobs, having $1500, or $5000, spending authority. They simply cannot effectively manage the projects, and I can tell you through talking from experience, I know this, and I know it well. You have to give serious consideration to improving the spending authority, if you want, and I think ultimately that will increase your efficiency, because decisions are made in the area where they are most knowledgeable, in my opinion.

On the ultimate sources of funding, I am not sure if this is going to get me in hot water or not but there is a $20 million shortfall right now, and we are sitting with $125 million in the W.C.B. It may be appropriate that you talk to the Minister of the W.C.B., and see if you can convince him to give you $20 million. After all, most of that money was contributed by northern business. I think that sometimes we look so far, yet if we look a little nearer, we, in fact, may find a solution to our problem. Maybe with some guarantees, the Board of Directors for the W.C.B. may be prepared to lend money to the Housing Corporation to build the 253 units that appear to be short.

So that is just one little, in my opinion, area that I think, with some creative thinking, we could possibly do that. Let me say, at the risk of sounding benevolent, I personally have been a strong antagonist of the Housing Corporation for years, prior to being elected as an M.L.A. I am pleased with the current leadership, both in terms of yourselves politically, and the steps you have taken to provide direction and instruction to the staff. I am also pleased with the fact that Mr. Elkin is now the President of the N.W.T. Housing Corporation. That way maybe we will get some sense of fairness and some sense of stability into that operation so it can move forward and do the job it is supposed to do. To provide houses to people in an economic and cost effective way, and at the same time ensure there is maximum benefits derived from objectivity to northerners.

In my opinion, that simply has not happened in the past to the degree in which it should have. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you. I am not sure I should follow those remarks made by Mr. Todd. I might be a bit critical here.

No, I would never think of being critical after Mr. Todd. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to make a couple of remarks here. I know that what I will say initially will be complimentary. I will raise a couple of concerns later on, but I want to say to Mr. Morin as the Minister, and Mr. Elkin, I am not going to forget those who were responsible before you. I think I can say how appreciative my constituency is in terms of, particularly, Fort McPherson, who has worked with the Housing Corporation to develop a working relationship, particularly the projects that you have undertaken. I thank you and the officials that have been involved in that particular project. I think without any question, after last summer's project, the initial one that occurred in Fort McPherson, that we were successful. I do not doubt for one moment after the work, and the reassessments that have been done by the corporation that, you will again be more successful this year.

In fact, in my view, you are going to have trained qualified people who are going to be able to build other units for you according to the standard that has been set by either C.M.H.C., or yourselves. I think that I can only compliment the staff, the Minister, and the President, and all those that have been involved. I know that there have probably been times when things have not been so smooth, even in developing the project, nonetheless, it is now going to be a success story. It is one that the corporation and this government can be extremely proud of. I hope that it will set the trend in other areas, and other regions, because I think it is an example worth following.

I did want to raise a couple of points. I know that there is a need in many communities to continue with improving, or increasing, the numbers of houses. I hope that in our own zest to build detached homes, we have not forgotten those who may not require detached units, and that we look at the continuation of the programs that you have pursued, particularly single parent units, apartments, or the potential of a duplex, depending on how you want to deal with that issue. Let us not forget that those are housing options that are worthy of our consideration, and, in fact, worthy of our continuation in terms of projects that we are proposing.

I want to say to you that we still, of course, have to utilize our creative thinking abilities to find some of the solutions to more problematic areas. In many respects, some of the problems that we have a tendency of encountering in terms of dealing with people in the communities happens to be just the way we deal with people, how we talk to them, how we try to communicate with them, and sometimes that is more of a problem than we really want it to be. It creates problems for us that does not necessarily need to exist.

Particularly, since we are moving ahead in terms of our ability to respond to the needs of the people in the communities, with regard to housing needs. I wanted to also say that I hope, in our own areas, that we base our crisis for financing, and that we do not try to move away from the idea of homeownership. I think it is important in the N.W.T. It is one area that can create at least in many communities a sense of responsibility for your own well-being and a responsibility for your family. I hope we do not embark on a policy initiative, or direction, that does not consider that as a liable program because it has been, in my experience, in this Assembly, since I came here in 1979, probably the most successful program, setting aside some of the more recent problems.

Other than that, we have moved a long way in the program. Maybe some people say we are overspending the dollars in terms of the units we are building, but I can assure you that when people in the communities have constructed their homes, and have moved into them, they appreciate greatly the support and the financial commitments that this government has made to them. They, themselves, assume a great deal of the financial responsibility afterwards.

We have a lot to be proud of despite all of the criticisms that even I have directed towards the Housing Corporation at times. There is a lot that we have to be proud of in terms of the programs and services we offer. I do ask of you, that in your own assessment, you try to address the whole matter of dealing with people in the communities, and in the regions. There is a great need to improve the communication between the communities and the regional district offices.

I wanted to point out the matter that was raised by Mr. Todd about the authority of the project managers with regard to spending authority. I think it is necessary to consider some way of allowing those project managers to make some decisions, with regard to spending. Particularly since the projects have been approved already. I do not say this to give project managers carte blanche authority, but if there are ways of cutting the costs of the project itself, then we should, in fact, look at that, and if this spending authority issue will help in reducing costs, then try addressing immediately a need at the project. We should deal with that issue.

Mr. Chairman, just one particular issue, and it results from a motion that I introduced in this House about developing a strategy to address the financial shortfall. One concern that I do have, is that I would hope, and I know the whole budget has taken up a lot of the time and concern of the Executive Council and the Minister, but I do want to ask you to try to move on the development of the strategy that would involve Members of this Assembly, the Standing Committee on Finance or the Ordinary Members' Committee, and other committees. To move as quick as you can in trying to develop that particular strategy, and also the documentation, so that we can be more helpful and more supportive in terms of trying to help this government bring this matter of our housing shortfall to the attention of the federal government or other organizations across the country that would be helpful to us.

That is all I have to say, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to assure the Member that we will be continuing to look at housing for units for single people in the communities. The survey that was done specifically says there is a need. For example, in Fort McPherson, 40 percent of extended families, 16 percent couples, who could be housed in a triplex, or a duplex, or whatever, two people, five percent seniors, nine percent singles are eight percent. Those figures, once verified by the community through the next phase of consultation, would be used in the allocation, so there would a mixture of units allocated to that community. That is how we would do it.

We will be expanding the homeownership program. There are people, presently, that live in public housing. There income says there is enough income for them to be able to afford their own home, and because of the way the existent H.A.P. program is they cannot tap into that program. We changed the program. That will free up a public house. For example, if we were to take seven people out of public housing and put them in H.A.P., you would free up seven public houses for those in need of it, who have a low income. There would be no need to build any public houses, so you would get a better bang for your dollar.

Thank you. Before I recognize the next speaker, let us take a 15 minute break. I would like to remind the Members there will be a full Caucus meeting during our break.

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I would like to call this committee back to order. Mr. Lewis. General comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Todd is not here now, but he is always referring to his former life and it bothers me a little bit. It makes me wonder what all those former lives of his were like.

The concern I have, Mr. Chairman, is that we have received some bad news about the kind of allocation that we are going to get in housing, as a result of the three percent federal cap, on all federal departments.

I happen to know, first hand, that two particular agencies of the federal government immediately went for exemptions on this three percent, and they were turned down the same day that they tried to get them. What concerns me is that the Minister may be very aggressive, and he may convince us that he is going to fight to the last drop of his blood to get the federal government to change its mind about the way we are treated, in the terms of allocation of money for housing.

At the same time, I would hope that in his back pocket he will have an alternative plan and not just simply depend on S.C.O.F. to come up with all the answers. Although I do agree that the committees of this House is where the action should be, in this whole budget session. I believe that since 1979, S.C.O.F. has played a lead role of informing Members on the implications of the budget. We have not just listened entirely to departments and taken all their words at face value without checking them with our own people.

That is the concern that I have is that we seem to be holding out some promise that maybe we have some strategy to get the federal government to change its mind, but I am not too optimistic that is in the cards. In fact, I am sure it is going to be impossible to do that.

I said the other day that although I have been very much in favour of balanced budgets and making sure that we kept our accounts straight, and that we did not mortgage the future for our young people, and carry debts that we can never get out from under, I still feel that on some things you are quite justified in going to the marketplace to get money to do the things that matter to you. You do not need S.C.O.F. to tell you that. If there is a problem that has to be resolved, then you have given it some priority, as long as you know that over a certain period of time, you can discharge that debt, and it is planned properly I see no problem at all in going to the market to borrow money to do the work that you need to get done.

I say that for one reason. Six years ago, there was a special committee on housing with over a 100 recommendations. It was debated, and it was clear from that document, as well as from the more recent needs survey, that we still have a very heavy demand for quality housing. I said earlier today, in my response to the Commissioner's Address, that if we are going to develop as a territory, we have to do something about infrastructure.

People do not think of a house as infrastructure, but that is the most basic infrastructure there is. Unless you can have a family with a decent roof over its head, with some space where kids can grow up in a healthy fashion, some place for kids to study if they want to, you have a place where a worker can feel comfortable. That is the most basic infrastructure that exists in the world, your home, the place that you live. You are not going to go anywhere until you say, that is where we start, infrastructure starts at home.

So, if you have to borrow money to do it, you do not have to wait for S.C.O.F., you do not have to say, well, magically I am going to convince that guy, MacKay, that I need more money, and he is going to listen to me. The sob story that used to work a long time ago, does not work any more. It is always good politics, I suppose, and it is very theatrical, and it worked at one time, to tell people that you cannot just go and sleep in Stanley Park and put a blanket over yourself and survive. Try doing that north of 60 and see where you get. Those stories about the terrible harsh conditions that we live under, just do not wash any more.

As far as I am concerned, if we really want to be a responsible government, we cannot just simply expect that we are going to get sympathetic treatment. That everybody is going to rush forward and recognize how unique, and different we are, and how our needs are so different to everyone's needs, because there are other parts of this country, where there are also people that need housing. In many rural parts of Canada there is desperate demand for housing.

My suggestion is that if we really believe that we are a responsible government, we should look at that issue, and say okay infrastructure is important. The basic form of infrastructure is a house, and we look at some way in which somebody can get, preferably ownership. A house that you actually have, that is yours, and find some way of financing it. That would be my suggestion, Mr. Chairman, and I do not think you need to wait for S.C.O.F. in order to give you wonderful ideas about how you get the money.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have already initiated other ways of funding units. We have expanded already the rent supp program. My officials from the Housing Corporation are already meeting with the lending institutions of Canada to explore funding there. I still feel that maybe if you look at it one way as trying to convince Ottawa that we have unique needs, and that we need sympathy. I am also looking at the obligation that the federal government does have to aboriginal people for housing, to explore that more. I may be a little naive, Mr. Lewis, but I feel that if you hammer home a point long enough and hard enough, and if you explain the everyday living in the Northwest Territories, and the things that we are going through, we are unique. There is no way that I ever tried to compare us to the south, it is like comparing apples to oranges, and I never use that in my arguments with them, because we are, a lot of people sitting around this room, are first generation off the land, and I use that argument. In the south, they do have the luxury of Stanley Park to sleep in, we do not. I will continue to pursue that, but let me assure the Member that I am not waiting and holding my breath on S.C.O.F. recommendations either. That is one avenue only, there are many other avenues open to us.

I agree with the Member that if it means we have to go out and borrow money, then that is what we will have to do.

Thank you. Are there any other general comments? Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, one of the things I want to raise, with regard to housing, is that when we talk about housing we automatically think of infrastructure. That is one way of thinking, but for aboriginal people, housing is important. It should not just be important so that it is designated only to communities, or centres.

We have people that still live off the land, and we still have people who live full-time out there, but the kind of help that they get is limited, nothing at all. During the summer months, they do come and live in the community, but the association should not just restrict itself to developing infrastructure in the community.

They should also think about assisting aboriginal people so that they do not have to live in the community. Right now, the insistence is to live in the community. It is important that we do not lose sight of that. I have been, for some years now, trying to help some people in that area, but we do not have any programs, and if they do, it is because of the H.A.P. houses in the community.

We have units now, in Fort Providence, that are quite old units and a lot of emphasis has been on building new units and really not repairing. We have about twelve basement units in Fort Providence that are now going through a stage where the basement is not effective any more, it is leaking. The same people are living in there, these are thirty year old units.

People have talked to me, including Johnnie Nadli, requesting that they repair his unit, because it has not been repaired since he moved into the unit. With the exception of that most of the units in Fort Providence had retrofit. All the roofs are fixed, but nothing has been done to the interior to make the unit that much better.

I support the program with regard to the special projects. I appreciate that the Minister is continuing that program. Just a couple of weeks ago, the two individuals who were designated in Fort Providence are now living in their new units. In Kakisa, there were three elders who were supposed to get units this summer. Three months ago, when I visited there were indications that they were going to do the pads, but with regard to the actual construction, it was kind of iffy.

Kakisa is a traditional community and I think that if emphasis is put on also encouraging traditional activities, we should allow some latitude so that if a member of a community decides that community living is not the best for himself, or his family, then he should be given the opportunity to live in his traditional place.

All the communities know where their traditional areas are. It would not be as if you pick a piece of land and build anywhere you want to. If I was to do that, I would have to move back to Red Knife. There are people that live in Horn River and Axe Point. There are all kinds of places where people actually live and they know who they are, and where they live.

That is all I have to say, I have not got anything else. Except to say, Mr. Minister, you did not say that you were going to change the criteria on that, has the criteria not been changed, is it now called alternate housing, as opposed to H.A.P. housing?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with the Member that there should be some assistance to help people to continue their traditional lifestyle on the land. I do not know if we can build units out on the land, as well as a unit in the community, for one individual. I remember that there was a Harvester's Support Program that was put together where people would actually stay out on the land, and they would be able to get assistance through Renewable Resources.

I do not think that program is in place yet, or has been moved on. I do not have any answers for the Member right now on whether or not the Housing Corporation would look at putting units out on the land for people. It is something that can be explored, I would not rule it out either.

There always has to be a good mix of building new units, as well as fixing up the older units. If the houses are salvageable, there is a program that can be accessed to fix those older units in the Member's riding, they just have to apply for that.

As far as those units in Kakisa for the three elders the band in Kakisa requested that they be put off until the spring so that they can build them and they could benefit from the economics of building them themselves, so we agreed to that. It makes common sense to do that.

Special needs projects, next year that program will be rolled in with the rest of the programs being revised. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

On a final note, Mr. Chairman. The only reason I brought up the whole thing about housing assisting people who are living off the land is just to remind the Members. We keep saying that we care about the aboriginal people, their traditions, their music, their practices, but we do not seem to be doing anything, even though we are concerned about it.

I just wanted to bring it up as a concern, so that we do not lose sight ever. This whole social housing program just started recently, and I appreciate the government's assistance for that, but I think that there are people who still do not feel comfortable with living in a centralized location and pursuing a traditional way of life. As opposed to being right where you are and pursuing a traditional way of life.

That is all I have to say, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. General comments. Before we go into detail, I would like to recognize Mr. Dent.

Thank you. Would this committee like to go to details now?

Agreed.

Thank you. Okay, we are on page 3-11, directorate total O and M $567,000.

Agreed.

Policy and evaluation. Total O and M $332,000..