Thank you. Mr. Lewis.

Community Control Of Programs

I had thought that maybe that is what was meant. I know that in the past we have had lists of the number of people in the Northwest Territories that hold elected offices. We have thousands and thousands of committees all over the place. Mr. Chairman, what this is heading for, then, is one community group that looks after the whole works. I asked this question of Mr. Morin the other day when I asked, does that mean that the local housing corporations are going to go? He was absolutely clear that that is not what is intended at all. I asked it for that reason, because it seemed to me that if we are going to head in the direction of giving local communities control over all of their programs, that the local housing corporations would go; they would disappear; and they would then come directly under community government. Would the Government Leader confirm that there is no intention at all of getting rid of local housing authorities, that they would still be independent and carry on the way they are right now?

Madam Government Leader.

Problems With Community Control Of Programs

Mr. Chairman, the community,

in itself, I would think at the outset would want to keep their housing committee, but at this point the housing committee does not report to the local authority. They report outwardly. There is no intention of doing away with their function, but who do they report to, who are they accountable to, and how do they get into the mix so that those local priorities can be set? In terms of making decisions, sometimes even here we sit and try to take away one function, saying that it is not needed, but that does impact on another department.

The community of Tuk has talked about taking over these responsibilities, and what they find is that we have a lot of disjointed community organizations and they fall apart in the end, because there is not really a strong support group that would ongoingly take into consideration what each is doing, and the function would be hedged into the local authority, whoever that would be. There are some areas where there are bands, and some areas in the far Arctic have communities which do not have as much of a problem because they are hamlet councils.

The communities themselves really have a difficult time because the local municipality will zone and put together some lots that are available and the housing association will do something else; so they deal with the Housing Corporation regional office and really do not know how those houses are going to be planned. In the end, somebody who needs a lot just does not have the lot preparation. There is no community planning as a total package so that everyone knows what others are doing, and when you put gravel on, what your plans are to go to certain types of housing.

This is not the idea of doing away with the local housing administration facility, although I could see that the administration may be that they want to take on all of the public housing repairs. There are all kinds of things that they could do, but it is just to try to co-ordinate it at a community level so that everyone knows what is going on, and then they can work out co-operatively how they are going to plan their expenditures.

Thank you. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I find that very useful to understand what is meant here. We are not talking about decentralizing programs; we are talking about consolidating. Many of these programs which are now independent of each other would be, somehow, co-ordinated better under one level of government. That is much clearer now, and I appreciate the Minister's response to that issue.

Would this be a condition, then, of transfer? You said we are not really very far along in this -- all these things are ahead of us -- and there has not really been that much planning or thinking, and so on. I would like to ask the Minister, does she see this as a condition of proceeding with transfers? That there would be one consolidated level of government to which things could, in fact, be transferred. Is that a condition?

Thank you. Government Leader.

Yes, we see that happening. What the political make-up of that community body is is another thing. That is being developed on a more highly political time frame. The constitutional part is being discussed at the commission level, but we see the communities coming to some reconciliation on who is going to handle that delivery of service.

Thank you. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Level Of benefits In The North

Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer back to page 16, to the comments that are made in there regarding the social housing situation and the quality and level of these benefits. I just wanted to point out that in the third and fourth paragraph there are sentences there which I think are not true. They are, in the third paragraph, discussing staff housing, dental and medical benefits: "The quality and level of these benefits have come to be regarded as the northern standard, and many residents who are non-government employees expect to receive precisely the same standard of living through government social programs."

In the fourth paragraph the third sentence reads: "These programs provide a level of benefits to aboriginal residents which tends to be high in comparison to non-natives." I think there are areas that are hidden within the government's spending which by far exceed the amounts that are spent on native people: such things as vacation travel assistance, and the vacation travel assistance handed out to employees. An employee is able to receive funds or be given travel warrants to travel, and those amounts far exceed the amount that is received by an individual who wants to stay in the North and take his vacation time. I think the majority of the people who do stay in the North are native people, because they are at home.

Another example of areas where costs are hidden, is where a person who is travelling from the South and wants to come up north and is weathered out will receive pay for that time that they are stuck down south; whereas an employee who is stuck out on the land, also on vacation, who is not able to come back into the community, will not get paid. I have this tendency to think that when the traders first came up here, they came up and made rules which would suit themselves and not the people who were living here first. Now, that is beside the point, but there are, I think, ways that we could equalize some of the benefits that are received.

In the third paragraph, it states that there are many residents who are non-government employees who expect to receive precisely the same standard of living through a government social program. We were discussing in the page before, page 14, that the social programs we have in the North are a way too high, and the comments that were being made regarding the hunters' and trappers' program, which I think is very good. I think because of the fall in prices of fur, there are more trappers who are staying home, which creates problems in the homes --social problems -- because the people are not able to take in an income which they would have otherwise earned rather than received. I know I have met some people here in the North who are on social assistance who say, referring to welfare day or social assistance day, "I will be receiving my cheque, my pay cheque, on this day." Now, that shows you how far along we are as far as our social programs go. There is no self-esteem in some people who are on social assistance any more, and we as a government give no incentive whatsoever to try and raise that self-esteem. I think that a program such as a hunters' and trappers' assistance program would give that self-esteem back to the people, who I think deserve it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Do we have a response? Government Leader.

Just on the one part. The statement here really is saying what you are saying. You know, in terms of the collective bargaining, there are many benefits that are accruing to government people, like vacation travel and all these extra benefits -- removal, after so many years a couple of trips out -- you know these are part of the collective agreement, and what this report has said is that

because it has been there so long, people who are not employed by government, who are outside working in other areas like maybe even a private garage -- somebody has got a garage -- they do not get this if they are a non-native person, and so there is a feeling that it should be upgraded for them to receive the same benefits.

As well, in terms of the status native people, which are the Inuit and the status Dene, they receive certain benefits that they do not have to pay for, where a Metis person has to pay. So the Metis people and other people who are not involved with government would like to be drawn up to it, because it is just a statement of the fact that when the higher standard is available, people want to move up to it. The thing is that some of them are already in the collective agreement. Other ones are paid for by a medical insurance plan, et cetera, so it is not a criticism but just stating a fact that these different levels of support exist and people tend to feel that everyone should have the same. That is really a statement, and I just want to agree with that.

Thank you. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with the Government Leader in what she is saying, but I would like to add that when I was campaigning, I was asked a question, why is it that we are at home, we have been given assistance to get a home, we have lived in the North for a long time, but the manner in which a person who is hired to the GNWT is given a house which he is, of course, paying for, but the other benefit that the employee receives is furniture, something that is, I think, to some people a luxury item. I have been to homes where people are sleeping with mattresses on the floor. Their houses are so rundown that there is no proper heating, the house is not level, and yet we have employees whose houses are renovated every three or four years. The level of service that is given to our employees, I think, is much more luxurious than what is received by just ordinary people on the street. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Are there any other comments? General comments or comments? Page 16. Page 17. Any comments? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Chairman, prior to going to page 18, I would like to request the Chair to give us a 10 minute break.

Yes. We will take a 10 minute break and start at 5:25.

---SHORT RECESS

I call the committee back to order. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Chairman, I move to report progress.

Thank you. The motion to report progress is non-debatable. To the motion. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I will rise and report progress.

Before we return to the orders of the day, I would like to clarify a ruling I made under Item 9, petitions. Mr. Arngna'naaq was explaining his petition. I ruled at the time that only the title was allowed.

I will read Rule 57(2): "A Member may present a petition from his place in the House during the daily routine under the item 'Petitions.' He shall endorse his name thereon and confine himself to a statement of the petition, the number of signatures and the material allegations. In no case shall such a Member occupy more than five minutes in so doing, unless by permission of the Assembly upon question put."

I was in error, and I apologize to Mr. Arngna'naaq. At the next opportunity when Item 9 comes up in the order paper, Mr. Arngna'naaq will have an opportunity to complete his statement.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Tabled Documents 9-12(2), 10-12(2) and 12-12(2) and Bill 14, and wishes to report progress. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the chairman of committee of the whole be concurred with.

Is there a seconder to that motion? Mr. Arngna'naaq. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 20, third reading of bills. Item 21, orders of the day. Mr. Clerk.

Mr. Speaker, announcements. There will be a meeting of the ordinary Members' caucus immediately after adjournment this evening, followed at 6:00 p.m. by a meeting of the Nunavut caucus. Meetings for tomorrow morning: at 8:30 a.m. of the standing committee on legislation; at 10:30 of the ordinary Members' caucus in the committee room; and at 12:00 noon of the full caucus.