The big difference from before is that prior to this -- I am not sure what the budget was last year; I do not have that figure in front of me -- to drive millions of dollars of capital projects, the Housing Corporation spent $10,000 on a survey. That is ludicrous. That is crazy. You have to pay or invest in getting something good, and with the community as well as Members contributing to the drafting of the survey instrument to begin with, and then the community doing it -- I do not think the communities ever fully understood the importance of the survey. Some did and took advantage of it -- I should not say took advantage of it, but they did it right and others did not do it right. They did not understand that this was the housing allocation for the next three years.

So we will drive that home. I think it will be driven home by Members of this Assembly when you go back to your ridings of how important this survey and how important it is that the community does it properly, with the Housing Corporation's assistance. So that is going to make the difference. Last year our portion was $71 million and you spend $10,000 -- that is not right.

To the motion.

Question.

Motion To Undertake Credible Housing Needs Study, Carried

Question has been called. All those in favour? Opposed, if any? The motion is carried.

---Carried

General comments. Mr. Pudluk.

Problems With Retrofitted Houses

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is always a concern when it comes to the Housing Corporation, especially in my constituency. I think housing is one of the most important things for the communities to have. There are always a lot of people who need houses in the communities. There will always be a lack of housing in the communities. The sealift is always quite late, and it takes quite a long time to get the materials up to my constituency.

The houses that are due for retrofitting are always a concern, because sometimes when they do a retrofit on an old house the inside becomes smaller; and the designs are not always adequate. I will use this as an example: This winter I moved into a retrofitted house. I looked at the original design of the house and the retrofitted design. When I entered the new house that was retrofitted, it was in poor condition, even the outside doors. The porch area fills up with snow right away, because it was not done properly. At the top of the kitchen area there is a vent, and all the stuff around the stove is always freezing up whenever there is a high wind. I thought that since it was a retrofitted house I was going to go into a pretty nice looking house, but I found out that it was a lot colder than the previous house, even though it was renovated and painted very well.

Anything that is designed, such as housing -- I agreed with Mr. Todd's letter to the Minister of DPW with regard to the poor design of houses. The design of the houses does not fit the northern climate. It has to be done to the northern style.

The concern of my constituents is with regard to the houses that were built in 1962; they are called the low rental housing. They have not been replaced, especially in Grise Fiord. A lot of them have been renovated -- the houses that were built in 1962 -- and the Grise Fiord residents have said that the size of the house gets smaller when they are renovated. They have approximately eight or more people in a three-bedroom house. They have concerns about the designing, and after the renovations the houses get smaller.

Another concern that they have, in my constituency, is that those people who go to renovate those houses start in the fall. They work during the winter, and all the materials that they are using to renovate with are just outside and filling up with snow. When they are finished renovating, they take off back to where they came from and just leave the garbage and all of the materials outside of the house and the snow covers it up. In the spring, the community has to do the cleaning up of those leftover materials from those renovations. This is one of the problems and the concern of my constituency. It is a long winter up there, and they do not clean their garbage when they leave.

The last comment that I have is with regard to HAP housing. The people who want HAP housing apply from the communities. Communities beyond the tree line want to own more homes, and they want to construct them themselves the way they want to make them. But the problem that they have is that the communities are not involved as to which people in the community will be getting a HAP house. The application has to go to Iqaluit first, and then it goes from Iqaluit to Yellowknife, and from here they find out whether the applicant is approved for a HAP house or not, and the applicant is not involved in the whole process.

They have a problem with the ceiling. This should not be a problem because people in the communities should be more involved, and they want to be more involved in getting a HAP house, but they are worried about their salary level. The policy that you have at the present time should be changed so that people in the communities could get their own homes regardless of their salary level. These are the concerns that my constituents have at this time, and I wanted to bring them up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Minister.

Community Involement In Providing Housing

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the Member's information, with the retrofit on the old housing units, they become smaller. I guess the reason for that is the insulation in the walls becomes bigger, so the unit does become smaller. As far as stuff freezing up around the stove, that is a problem that should not happen. There is a problem with the design of the retrofit. I do not have the particulars here, Mr. Pudluk, but I will check into it, because maybe all we have to do is go to inside ventilation of those units. It may be a simple thing to fix, but that is why it is important that the community has a part in design as well as in any retrofits and that we get the community's advice, because they know the wind conditions and they know what happens in their community, so they should be involved in all aspects of that, as well.

The community should be involved in the design of units as well. There are 1962 northern rental units that have not been replaced. We are trying to replace as many as we can every year. We can only replace so many, so it will come to where they all get phased out because they are below standard and our objective is to phase them out.

The renovations start in the fall. Because of the sealift being so late, the only way we could possibly solve that problem, Mr. Pudluk, is by shipping in a year ahead of time, and I will have to check to see if that is possible. That would be one way to do it, but the majority of work, I believe, is in the interior of the unit, and the contractor is responsible for cleaning up behind himself. It is not the community. So if a contractor left a mess, then he should have deducted from his contract the clean-up costs. Hopefully we will not have a contractor leaving the community in the middle of winter, because the community will be doing all that work. That is what I would prefer to see. Retrofits and things like that, we want to see the community doing it, people in the community, so then they are more responsible, as well. That is what we work towards, but in the meantime we will ensure that the contractor does clean up.

It is good to hear that the communities in your area want to get more home-ownership because it is a high priority of the Housing Corporation. We all know that the home-ownership program is the best bang for our dollar. We can build, I think, seven or nine home-ownership units compared to one public unit, which has lifetime costs, so it is the best thing to do.

As far as the local community being involved, the community should be involved, and will be, starting next year when we redevelop the program. With reference to those with higher income, as well as those with lower income, we want to redevelop programs to meet all the needs of the people. Right now all of those needs are not being met. The community should be involved in the allocation of those units as well. Once you develop a program and it is straightforward, and all the rules and policies are there, then the community can do it. I support the communities' getting more and more involved in their housing needs and trying to solve them. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Arvaluk.

Fairness Needed In Allocation Of Housing Projects

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to apologize for missing most of the day. I had an appointment with the ophthalmologist, and I thought he was only going to take a few minutes, but it took two or three hours.

Mr. Chairman, I realize that the estimates were prepared by the previous government before the last election, under the then Minister, Mr. Tom Butters. I also realize that cabinet Minister's have influenced each other in the preparation of the capital estimates. I am not blaming that previous government, but I would like to ask the Minister: Are you intending to make some corrections as to what the previous government has done wrong in the allocation of capital projects of housing?

If you look at page 03-19, for the Keewatin -- I am not criticizing the allocation for Baker Lake because they are in need, too. Just for comparison, the population is not twice as much as Coral Harbour but they are getting 12 units, and we are getting two units. When Mr. Tom Butters was in Coral Harbour we asked him if the government could provide emergency shelters because of the shortage of housing in Coral Harbour. We wanted insulated tents -- they would probably be about $1000 each -- rather than an $80,000 house. The problem that we have in Coral Harbour is that we have Northern Quebec dissidents arriving yearly, and that creates an incredible amount of shortage there. I would ask the Minister if he could try to be a bit more fair in the allocation of projects on a needs basis, as the motion stated. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to assure the Member that cabinet colleagues have no more influence over me than any other Member of this Assembly with regard to housing allocations. The housing allocation, while I am Minister, will be driven by the needs assessment that is going to be done by the community. That needs study is going to say how many homes a community needs, what kind, and all that will be weighed equally. Every community is going to be treated as equal. There is not going to be any favouritism to any Member or to any community. I would like to assure the Member of that.

According to the last housing needs survey, the need in Baker Lake was 107 units. In Coral Harbour the need was 43 units. So I guess that is the reason you have 12 and two being introduced into those communities for this year. I would also like to assure the Members that if, for some reason, a needs survey in the past was not done properly in your community, the new needs survey that will be done by the spring of this year will pick up that slack. If you have lost out over the last three years, you are going to gain immediately, because your needs are going to be greater than the other communities that received more. So that will equal out, and it will be equal and fair. Thank you.

General comments. Mr. Arvaluk.

Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just for the information of the Member, this year Coral Harbour is getting two units of public housing and five units of HAP housing, and three retrofits, so that is a total of 10, compared with Baker Lake getting 12 public and one HAP for a total of 13.

Thank you. The hour being 6:00 o'clock, I will now rise and report progress. I want to thank the Minister and his officials.

Good afternoon. Item 19, report of the committee of the whole. Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Your committee has been considering Bill 14 and Committee Report 3-12(2) and wishes to report progress, with 11 motions being adopted. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the chairman of the committee of the whole be concurred with.

Seconder to your motion? Mr. Todd. Your motion is in order. All those in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 20, third reading of bills. Mr. Pollard.

Third Reading Of Bill 8: Elections Act

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, that Bill 8, An Act to Amend the Elections Act, be read for the third time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Your motion is in order, Mr. Pollard. All those in favour of the motion? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 8 has had third reading. Third reading of bills. Mr. Pollard.

Third Reading Of Bill 11: Plebiscite Act

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Yellowknife South, that Bill 11, An Act to Amend the Plebiscite Act, be read for the third time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Your motion is in order, Mr. Pollard. All those in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 11 has had third reading. Third reading of bills. Mr. Whitford.

Third Reading Of Bill 10: Local Authorities Elections Act