Mr. Chairman, similarly to the previous bill we just dealt with, Bill 13, these two sort of show that it will now be no longer illegal to go over your budget from individual activities of the capital estimates. I suppose sometimes you do go over your budget, but my concern is still that we are very serious about eliminating the deficit of the government, but this will not help to eliminate that deficit. However, if it is genuinely a good intention of the government not to abuse the right of having the bill, Financial Administration Act, No. 2, in place, then I suppose we will have to wait and see. But I still have that concern that we will have to watch very carefully.

General comments. Does this committee wish to go clause by clause?

Agreed.

--Agreed

Clause 1. Agreed?

Agreed.

I

--- Agreed

Clause 2. Agreed?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Clause 3. Mr. Koe.

Section 32.2(2) which mentions responsibilities of deputy ministers and that they *shall take all reasonable measures to ensure that no expenditure is incurred..." What happens to a deputy minister who has overexpenditures?

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, early in its mandate this government conveyed to deputy ministers the fact that 46 per cent of their appraisals on the kind of work that they do for this government would be allocated to the financial area. We believe that was saying to deputy ministers, 'We expect you to be financially responsible; and if you are, then you will get better appraisals." So their management skills will be judged 40 per cent on their financial ability.

Mr. Chairman, there were some 20 cases in activities that went over their budgeted amounts in 1987-88; in 1988-89 there were some six activities; in 1989-90 there were five; in 1991 there were seven cases. So we have a fairly good record of where it occurs, how it occurs. If we were to see a trend whereby a deputy minister or department were going over in their activities, then I would have no choice then to bring that to the Financial Management Board and suggest to them that there may be something that should be done with regard to disciplining that particular deputy minister.

Clause 3. Agreed? Mr. Gargan.

Will the Minister of Finance have anything regarding the deficit itself? The Minister indicated there were several overexpenditures in certain departments, The intent of this act is to ensure that is no longer the case, but I am still interested in finding out which departments and how much of deficit they overexpended. I asked the Minister already in written question, and I still have not received any response to date.

Mr. Minister.

The response is on its way to Mr. Gargan. I will not know until the year end which departments have overspent, which departments are outside of their activity levels. The House has seen, in the supps that have gone through here, where departments have come forward for additional funds, whether that was taken out of the supp reserves or whether it has just been granted them. Those expenditures have been processed through the House. I will not know until the year end, numbers are available to us if there are any departments that have overspent in any of their activities or if they have overspent as a department. But I will report to the House when I do have the year end results.

Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, the Minister is indicating that he does not know what the overexpenditures are, but how do we come up with those figures with regard to a deficit?

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, we are spending more money than we are taking in, and that is how the deficit is accruing.

Mr. Koe.

Penalties For

Overexpenditures

In this case, in terms of Overexpenditures or unauthorized expenditures exceeding budgets, this Financial Administration Act sets the rules out. It does not seem to me to have a penalty section. The Minister mentioned about appraisals. Who does the appraisals for deputy ministers?

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the Government Leader.

Mr. Koe.