Thank you. Now, this floor is open to general comments and questions. Mr. Dent.

General Comments

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At this time, we are still waiting to hear from the city and to initiate the discussions. As they say, the ball lies in their court, I believe.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have the copy of the letter, but I have seen copies of letters done by the department with regard to leased buildings. I understand that, when there are negotiations for these buildings, there are certain buildings that the department is reluctant to lease. They would rather spend a large amount of money just so they have the control over certain types of buildings. One of them is fire halls. The other ones are nursing stations and schools. I cannot reason why the department would choose not to make the same kind of arrangements as they do for an office complex or a recreation facility.

In times when we all have to tighten up our belts and try to spend as wisely as possible, I would think that the best direction for this government to go is with lease arrangements. This way, it doesn't cost them $500,000 or $1 million for projects in one year. Perhaps, they might even divert it to other communities that might be in need and allow the communities to construct those through the banks. They, in turn, build those capital projects and lease them to the government for an extended period of time.

The whole question is with regard to ownership. As long as the government is leasing from those corporations in the community, the ownership is still with the government, since they are paying for the facility. I don't know what their hang-up is, but I believe in the response I've been getting from the department that they feel those are areas best handled by the hamlet. The hamlets don't negotiate. All they do is get the money, it goes out to tender and the hamlets have a say in the design of the buildings. I can't reason why they would have two standards, or two policies, that govern leases of capital projects.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, the honourable Member knows I'm strong advocate of ownership and we have demonstrated that in a number of occasions across the Northwest Territories. In my own riding, there is a strong movement, the development corporation gets involved in housing and office facilities.

However, even when we do the housing and office facilities, we have to ensure that government is getting good value for money because it is public funds we are spending and we also have to make sure that the cost of the lease component doesn't override the capital cost on the front end. If it is going to cost twice or three times as much, while it may appear in the short-term that there are some savings, in the long-term, the long-term financial obligations, there could be significantly more cost.

That's a question of analysis, I guess, at the time. The other thing, the way I understand it, anyway -- and I'm somewhat familiar with this department from my previous background -- is some facilities are viewed as public facilities versus a staff house or an office. In other words, an arena is a public facility, therefore the public has to have total access to it, whereas a staff house or, in some cases, an office isn't quite interpreted the same way.

I could be wrong, and I can check with the officials, but certainly from my perspective, I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at the possibility of leasing public facilities. But, we have to ensure that the community is in favour of it. Because, remember, the municipal governments and hamlets want to own these. We'll use the arenas as an example, they want to own these arenas. They create a number of jobs, whether in maintenance or a recreation coordinator, or whatever. So, I don't think there is any policy, as such, that says we can't do that. I think it has been viewed as a public facility, rather than as a semi-public facility, like an office or the leasing of housing.

I think that's the best way I can answer that, at this time. I don't know whether that would satisfy Mr. Gargan. But, that's the way I would view it. I would say to you that, in the short time I've had this portfolio, if a proposal came forward from a community that had strong community support, and the numbers were appropriate -- in other words, it wasn't an exorbitantly expensive -- and it could be clearly demonstrated that it was in the fiscal interest of the government, why wouldn't we do it? I guess that would be my question. It is more a question back to you.

I wouldn't see us not doing it, but it would have to meet these kinds of criteria, and it would definitely have to have strong municipal support from the hamlet settlement council. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, in other words, there is no such policy in existence, and all capital projects, whether they are public or not, can be negotiated under a lease arrangement?

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding that there is no policy that says they can't be done. I'm saying that I'm a strong advocate, as everybody knows, of ownership. Particularly, in the aboriginal business community, I think it is absolutely essential. It is one way in which to provide -- and I keep quoting my friend Jack Anawak -- an opportunity for aboriginal people to be landlords in their own land. Politically, I'm not opposed to it. I think it is a good idea, but I would have to caution by saying it would have to meet certain criteria.

There would have to be a cost analysis done, strong public support for it within the municipality or hamlet, and it would have to be in the best interests of the government financially. I don't think there is any opposition, and there is certainly no policy that opposes this. That is what I'm trying to say.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a few remarks to make on Municipal and Community Affairs. Having sat with the Standing Committee on Finance this time around, I am please to say that I have learned a lot about the government, more when I sat with the committee, than at any other time in the past two years that I have been a Member of the Legislative Assembly.

I am also glad to see that, under the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, there are going to be restrictions for communities, as far as contributions. They are going to be expected to contribute funds for capital infrastructure. I was also glad to hear the general comments the Minister made, with respect to, "The extensive consultation that was made with mayors, chiefs, and council chairpersons." However, I think, in this day and age, the word "consultation" is a new catch word that is used by the government quite often.

What really counts is what the department and the government does after that consultation. With that, I will be asking questions with regard to specific areas of the department as we go along. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

I have only had this ministry two weeks, and we have to give credit where credit is due. I think the extensive consultations and directions were made under the previous Minister. I think the budget, based upon SCOF's comment, is clearly reflective of the priorities established by municipal, hamlet and village councils. This is, I believe, a reflection of the long history this department has in community consultation, Mr. Chairman. That is not to say it is not without its weaknesses, there's no question about that. But I think, generally speaking, under the previous Minister, MACA has played a very key role in ensuring that municipal governments and hamlet councils are intimately involved in the planning process, with respect to capital expenditures. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the municipal parking and maintenance garages are extremely important, as the Minister is aware, especially in the remote and small communities, in the winter-time. The garages house municipal services equipment, such as water trucks, garbage trucks, and road and airport maintenance equipment. Some of the garages up north, especially in my area -- I'm talking about Gjoa Haven, Taloyoak, and Pelly Bay -- are no longer energy efficient, in my opinion.

Municipalities such as Pelly Bay, Gjoa Haven and Taloyoak pay over and beyond what the operating cost would be if the garages were new, but they are no longer new. It becomes very costly to operate these garages.

Mr. Chairman, also the maintenance of the municipal equipment, road and airport maintenance equipment, if not serviced properly, could prove to be very costly to the community or the municipalities. I know this government is very sensitive to energy saving, as we have preached throughout these years to the people of the Northwest Territories.

I would urge the Honourable Minister, perhaps through his regional staff, to check, or talk with the hamlets of Pelly Bay, Gjoa Haven and Taloyoak, to see if, in fact, these parking garages are up to par, per se. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with the honourable Member that, in these small communities, maintenance and parking garages are critical. They also assist in reducing the wear and tear of essential municipal equipment, the water and sewer trucks, and I want to assure him that it is an important priority. If you note, in my opening comments, we have identified $2.9 million toward the construction of public buildings, including parking and maintenance garages and warehouses.

There will be a continuing discussion with the municipalities, specifically as it relates to Mr. Ningark's riding. I want to assure him that there will be some ongoing discussions with the hamlets of Pelly Bay, Gjoa Haven and Taloyoak. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Line by line. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, with regard to recreation facilities, the Minister did make his opening remarks with regard to capital facilities. Since 1992, Chesterfield Inlet has had a medium arena. Gjoa Haven has a large arena with two curling rinks. If you look at the following year, with regard to recoveries, there is no mention of some of the communities. I was wondering why that is.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Of course, in relationship to the arenas, the size of the arena, et cetera, is determined on the population base, I understand. In regard to the recoveries, if Mr. Gargan will allow me just a moment, I will check the books here, because I don't know off the top of my head. Are we talking about the arenas in Arctic Bay and perhaps in Lutsel K'e?