This is page numbers 459 - 477 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was make.

Topics

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Do we have the concurrence of the committee that we will deal with Committee Report 6-12(6) and then Bill 3?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. We will proceed with Committee Report 6-12(6). Mr. Gargan.

Committee Report 6-12(6): Report On The Review Of Bill 3 - Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee on Legislation has completed its review of Bill 3, Guardianship and Trusteeship Act. The committee held public hearings in May 1994 in Fort Smith, Iqaluit and Yellowknife, and received four presentations on this bill, which offered opposing views of the proposed legislation.

The need for legislation to protect "dependent adults" in the Northwest Territories was identified by Social Services field staff in the early 1980s. Following extensive consultation with northerners and experts in the field, and based on new dependent adult legislation in other parts of Canada, the Guardianship and Trusteeship Act was developed.

During the public hearings, the committee heard from Anne Crawford, Lynn Hirschman, the Yellowknife Association of Community Living and the Aven Seniors' Centre. The opinions expressed ranged from complete support for the bill to eliminating the legislation entirely. Their views are presented in more detail in the committee's report on the review of Bill 3, Guardianship and Trusteeship Act.

In an effort to address these concerns and compare the bill with new legislation elsewhere, the committee conducted an extensive survey of other Canadian jurisdictions. It is apparent to the committee that Bill 3 is firmly based on the accepted principles of providing, where necessary, for the care of the represented person in the least restrictive manner possible, and only where that care is of substantial benefit to, and in the best interests of, the individual. In addition, this bill encourages, wherever possible, the involvement of the represented person in decision-making, which is consistent with the principle of "supported decision-making."

During its review, the committee explored all the concerns expressed by the public. It is the opinion of the committee that the proposed legislation addresses most of the concerns in one manner or another. However, it is the understanding of the committee that the Minister of Health and Social Services will introduce a motion to amend clause 8 of Bill 3, that would give special consideration to family members becoming the appointed guardian. The Standing Committee on Legislation would support such an amendment.

Although this legislation will require constant for effectiveness, the committee feels that it is among the most progressive legislation of its kind in Canada at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Report 6-12(6): Report On The Review Of Bill 3 - Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
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The Chair John Ningark

Yes, Mr. Gargan?

Committee Report 6-12(6): Report On The Review Of Bill 3 - Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I would recommend that we go on to the bill itself so that Members can give their comments.

Committee Report 6-12(6): Report On The Review Of Bill 3 - Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Gargan is recommending that we deal with Bill 3, Guardianship and Trusteeship Act. Do we have the agreement of the committee?

Committee Report 6-12(6): Report On The Review Of Bill 3 - Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Report 6-12(6): Report On The Review Of Bill 3 - Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
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The Chair John Ningark

Do we agree, then that Committee Report 6-12(6) is concluded?

Committee Report 6-12(6): Report On The Review Of Bill 3 - Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 3: Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Madam Premier, the Minister of Health and Social Services, do you have an introduction to the bill? Madam Minister.

Introductory Remarks By Minister Of Health And Social Services

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have some opening remarks to the bill and, as well, the Minister of Justice also has some remarks, as we are in partnership on the Guardianship and Trusteeship Act.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to present Bill 3, the Guardianship and Trusteeship Act, for your consideration.

The Department of Health and Social Services is responsible for the guardianship provisions of this bill. These provisions allow the Supreme Court of the Northwest Territories to appoint a guardian for adults who are unable to make decisions about their health and well-being. The bill clearly defines specific situations in which the appointment of a guardian may be made. Respect for human dignity is the key principle underlying this bill. The guardianship process proposed by the bill has been designed to be as efficient, simple and economical as possible.

The bill was developed in consultation with many interested community and professional groups. The Standing Committee on Legislation has completed its public review of the bill and has considered concerns expressed by the public. In its report, the Standing Committee on Legislation concluded that this bill is one of the most progressive pieces of legislation of its kind in Canada, as noted by the chairman of the standing committee. The committee recommended that the bill be amended to give preferential consideration to the appointment of family members as guardians.

I support this recommendation and will bring forward a motion to address this issue. Thank you.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Madam Premier. I would now like to recognize the Minister of Justice, Mr. Kakfwi.

Introductory Remarks By Minister Of Justice

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am also pleased to present the guardianship and trusteeship bill for your consideration.

The trusteeship provisions of this bill are the ones that I am responsible for, as Minister of Justice. The provisions in this bill regarding trusteeship provide for the appointment of trustees to act on behalf of persons who are not capable of making decisions regarding their finances.

At the present time, there is no legislation which sets out the rules under which trustees may be appointed to represent such persons. It is possible to apply to the court for that authority under the "common law," but that is a confusing process since there are no definite guidelines. This legislation will make it much easier for persons to apply to the court for appointment as the trustee of a family member or close friend.

This bill has been on the drawing board for several years and has undergone numerous changes. Originally, the bill was only intended to deal with guardianship issues, but it was later amended to include provisions with respect to trusteeship, which is the reason that I, as Minister of Justice, am co-sponsoring this bill. The public trustee is within my department and will administer the financial affairs of represented persons when there is no family member or close friend who is able or willing to do so.

As the Premier has mentioned in the context of guardianship, this bill has also been drafted to minimize the intrusiveness of trusteeship and to ensure respect for human dignity. A trustee will only be appointed for a person if the appointment will be of substantial benefit to the person. There will be no appointments made simply because a person is incapable of making financial decisions.

Across the country, there has been increasing pressure to find new ways to deal with abuse, neglect and self-neglect and to develop more options to ensure that there is less intervention and greater self-determination for all Canadians. Within the last two years, the provinces of British Columbia and Ontario have enacted wide-ranging legislation in this area. Their legislation has been considered in the drafting of this bill.

The Standing Committee on Legislation has considered the bill and I believe they found it to be a most progressive piece of legislation. However, there were some recommendations. One of them was that the bill be amended to give preferential consideration to the appointment of family members as guardians and trustees. As Ministers, we agreed with the requested amendment and I will be bringing forward the necessary motions to amend the relevant trusteeship provisions of the bill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Minister. In keeping with the procedures, I will now go to the chairman of the Standing Committee on Legislation. Point of order, Mr. Zoe.

Point Of Order

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Point of order, Mr. Chairman. For Members on this side of the House, the reprint of Bill 3 is not complete. I would kindly request the chair that we take a few minutes break to get our staff to give us proper copies of the reprint of Bill 3.

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The Chair John Ningark

Do we agree that we take a few minutes break until the reprint is completed and Members are given a copy?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair John Ningark

We will take 15 minutes. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. The committee will come back to order. With the concurrence of the committee, would the appropriate Minister, Stephen Kakfwi, bring in his witnesses?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair John Ningark

I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to bring in the witnesses, please.

For the record, I would like to ask the honourable Minister to introduce the witnesses to the committee.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, on my right is the assistant deputy minister from Health and Social Services, Penny Ballantyne and on my left, Mr. Shawn Flynn, from the legislation division. On his left is Larry Pontus, the public trustee from the Department of Justice.

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. For the record, I would like to inform committee Members that Mr. Kakfwi, Minister of Justice and Madam Premier, Minister of Health and Social Services, will be able to answer your questions because this particular bill deals with both departments. Do we have any general comments? Mr. Lewis.

General Comments

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The issue of guardianship and the need for dependent adults to have some way to make important decisions about their life has been with us for a long time. As Mr. Gargan has reported to the House, we have received information from several groups that indicated to us which way we should go.

Very often, it was a difficult to sort through the maze of sometimes conflicting opinions about how guardianship and trusteeship should operate in the Northwest Territories. During the review, Mr. Chairman, and even prior to this review when the bill first came into this House, I expressed some concerns that I have, because I've taken a personal interest in this particular subject for at least 10 years.

In making the comments I am about to make, Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't want to convey the opinion that we have not made substantial progress in the way this bill has been developed and brought to this stage in the House where we are about to go through each of the clauses. My major interest in such issues stems from a lifetime concern, as a professional person for the most part, in trying to give people the skills so they would be independent.

I saw that as the biggest problem facing the Northwest Territories, the degree of independence that societies, individuals, children in families, and kids in school strive to achieve. The whole process is to make you independent. However, some people in our societies are just not able to get that independence. That should be the principle that guides us all; how can we find ways of liberating people so they can be as independent as we can possibly make them. That has been my interest for most of my working life. Most of the work I have done has been directed at finding ways of making people independent, so they can stand up on their own feet.

I recognize, however, that there are groups of people in our society who need a lot of help; that can't be sovereign, independent people in the way we normally use that word. When we got the bill to examine, Mr. Chairman, it struck me that we could have done more with this bill to recognize that fundamental principle. We don't go as far as we can in recognizing that every individual, however frail or fragile they are, may have a spark and may, as much as possible, make decisions about themselves.

Because a bill that is sponsored by the government very often has been pushed this way and that way before it gets to us, very often it is very difficult to see which way you can change the bill, which operates from a certain set of principles and standards. It becomes very difficult for an individual Member to sort through all the research that has been done by government and all the information available from the provinces to make sure that what we do here is consistent with our own needs, but also with what is consistent, in some degree, with our society at large.

So, I was not able to get all the information I needed in committee in order to bring that kind of perspective to this piece of legislation. We said in our report that it is a progressive piece of legislation. In a sense, it is much better than anything we've got right now. It is better than several other pieces of legislation that exist in the country which are outdated and passed many, many decades ago.

What I want to do is make sure that what we do right now, we do in the spirit of recognizing that what we do now may not be changed for the next 20 years; that what we do now should be as good as we can possibly make it. I worked very carefully to see if there is some way -- even at this late stage and even though it is in the House now and we are going clause by clause -- we could recognize that if there is anything this Legislature is all about, it is to find ways, as much as possible, to help people make their own decisions and not have others make them for them; recognizing that there are still some cases where that would not be possible. We should find some way of introducing, even at this late stage, some words which recognize that we want to support whatever spark exists among people, so they can think and act for themselves. I have talked to ordinary Members about it and we have discussed it in committee. Our problem was we never knew what mechanism to use. We don't have the resources of government, as individual Members. It is very difficult for us to have the kind of expertise available to us that government lawyers would provide.

However, I have worked with our legal counsel and I believe there are some words we have come up with that may be able to convince Members that, even at this late stage, we could still make some small changes that would make this the best legislation that exists in this country. Also, it would confirm that what we do in the Northwest Territories has always been to try to find ways of making people independent, stand on their feet and to act for themselves where possible.

So, Mr. Chairman, I have said what I want to say and any further elaboration would be redundant and would probably irritate people. So when the time comes, I will be introducing some amendments to this act and I would urge Members to think carefully about the proposed changes and not to automatically say we have done all this work. This is the chamber where we make decisions and we should be open-minded about any possibility for change, even at this late date, because it has been very difficult to come up with something that would be acceptable to the Government of the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.